Red Light Cameras

[GatorsUF]

I recently was driving at night and accidentally ran a red light (just barely). The intersection is one that I know to have a red light camera. I did not see a flash (it is normally very bright and apparent, I've seen it go off a few times on other drivers) so I don't know if it got me or not. Either way know Ben Swann has done a few segments on the constitutionality of the speeding cameras.

I am a bit torn because I was guilty of running the light, however I feel that the cameras not legal. They don't serve a purpose as far as providing safety and they are merely a means of collecting money for the police department. Couple all that with the fact the Florida recently shortened the required time limit for yellow lights (only state to do so that I know of) and you have a "policing for profit" situation on your hands.

If I do receive a ticket for running the light what should be my course of action? I would actually like the court to take a look at these cameras and decide if they are legal or not, however I don't want to hire a lawyer and spend a bunch of money to do so. What would you guys do? Just pay it and move on?

[ronpaulfollower999]

Ask to face your accuser in court, and hope the city (or county) doesn't force you to pay for them to move the camera from the intersection to the court room.

[ghengis86]

Fight the ticket and represent yourself. You'll have to go to traffic court, the judge or magistrate will call you up, the town attorney will give their side, then the judge will turn to you for your explanation/defense.

Ill think about what to say layer tonight

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

it's 2013 and we can't have a countdown at every traffic light to let people know exactly when the light is going to turn red? I guess that's too easy. In NJ a lot of lights have countdowns by the crosswalk so you can tell when the light is going to turn yellow/red. Of course the major intersections by highways don't have them, instead they have state-of-the-art red light cameras.

This is a good solution too

http://www.neatorama.com/2009/12/02/is-a-progress-bar-on-a-traffic-light-a-good-idea/

[ghengis86]

Research your state/local law regarding red light cameras. In some states (I think most now to close a loop hole) the liability for the ticket is the vehicle owner, not the driver. This allows the state to side step the need to prove who the driver actually was. Unless they have a front facing camera, which even then the photo's specificity could be debated. If you personally get the ticket, you could make them show proof it was you. Never admit it was you, but just ask the court to show proof it was you. If the judge asks if you we're driving the car at that time, decline to answer on 5th amendment grounds.

Now, traffic courts usually require a 'proponderance of evidence' to prove guilt, which is NOT as strict as ' beyond a reasonable doubt'. Basically, if they're 51% sure you're guilty, you're guilty.

If you can't argue that the state cannot prove it was you, you'll have to get more creative because you'll implicitly agree that you ran the light but will have to argue a misapplication of the law i.e. the yellow signal is too short, or shorter than other lights, or slamming on the brakes would create a dangerous/public safety issue, etc. you can also ask to confront your accuser which they won't be able to fulfill (although some states have an officer review the photo and then he writes the ticket so there's a warm body that can testify in court). But they probably have a response to that. Ask them how the system is calibrated and if they have third party validation that it is operating correctly. Ask how the image is protected and transmitted and not altered. Ask what format the picture is stored as and who has access to it. Ask what teaining is incolved. Basically you're putting the camera system on trial.

Typically traffic courts won't hear arguments based on constitutionality as that is reserved to higher courts. It's basically "we don't interpret the laws, just enforce them/prosecute based on the direction from the higher courts. You're always free to try though, as the worst that can happen is you 'lose' and pay the fine. But I always challenge.

I've had a ticket dismissed because the cop didn't show up, for a loophole in the law and also one where they just didn't write the ticket correctly. IF you get a ticket, let us know and we can go from there.

[DamianTV]

Need to have more laws that restrict Govt, not the People.

In this case, I would want a Law to be passed that your Accuser MUST BE HUMAN.

[GatorsUF]

Thanks for all the replies. I will let you know if I do receive a ticket. I'd like to be able to question the legality of the whole thing however I'd guess at best that my ticket will get thrown out and the judge will move on. At worst I pay the initial fine.

[ghengis86]

Thanks for all the replies. I will let you know if I do receive a ticket. I'd like to be able to question the legality of the whole thing however I'd guess at best that my ticket will get thrown out and the judge will move on. At worst I pay the initial fine.

First start by researching the laws regarding cameras in your state, specifically any case law that set a precedent. If there is a conflict in the law that hasn't been settled yet, you could have the ticket crossed by the judge.

[economics102]

Sometimes when you show up in court the judges and/or prosecutors are actually very reasonable and willing to dismiss things or have it such that you pay a very small amount of money. I recently had to go to court and the judge dismissed virtually all the minor traffic offenses, requiring you only to pay the $30 court fee. So it's usually sound advice to go in prepared to put up a fight but first wait and see if the prosecutor or judge is willing to throw you a bone.

If you want to challenge it on principle, that's another matter, and more power to you.

Someone commented about how "there should be a warning indicator"...there is, it's called a yellow light, and what's most ridiculous about the red light cameras is that those intersections tend to have absurdly short yellow lights. Sometimes they are shortened in order to increase RLC revenue. Frankly, the part that's most wrong about it is that the short yellows create dangerous behaviors, where people are stopping short to avoid inadvertently running the red light (either to avoid an RLC ticket or to avoid a collision in the intersection. I've seen several near-accidents (rear-enders) at RLC intersections and I don't blame the drivers, whether you're going fast or slow, the short yellows make navigating intersections very difficult.

There are several studies now confirming the obvious -- these "revenue generator"...I mean Red Light Cameras, rather than increase safety, actually increase accidents.

Take a read through these: http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/studies

[DamianTV]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1002/russia-russian-speed-camera-demotivational-poster-1266999790.jpg

You think its bad now?

[nobody's_hero]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geUhtoHbLu4

[Anti Federalist]

What they do to speed cameras in the UK

http://alastairpatrick.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/gatso-burning.jpeg

[Anti Federalist]

Some folks on this board would support that...:rolleyes:


http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1002/russia-russian-speed-camera-demotivational-poster-1266999790.jpg

You think its bad now?