DARPA Manager Explains Multiple Ways Cars Can Be Hacked And Completely Taken Over

[green73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6jxBDy8k8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6jxBDy8k8

[Elias Graves]

Can I move here?

http://ivanstalio.com/immagini/Illustrazioni/history/medieval-village-villaggio-medievale.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Two points.

- It has never been confirmed by MSM that Lady Diana's car that crashed while being chased byu papporazis was hacked by UK's secret agencies

- There was at least one TV report that police had called Mercedeze to shut off car in which Boston suspect was driving around but they did not have luck

[Anti Federalist]

First thing I am doing once the warranty runs out on that VW of mine, is re-flashing the ECM to disable the "disabler".

[CaptUSA]

Can I move here?

http://ivanstalio.com/immagini/Illustrazioni/history/medieval-village-villaggio-medievale.jpg

Needs some turrets and a bigger moat.

[tod evans]

Hack these tech-boy!

http://www.lewisfab.com/store/images/uploads/points_012.jpg

[QuickZ06]

First thing I am doing once the warranty runs out on that VW of mine, is re-flashing the ECM to disable the "disabler".

I am the computer in my cars, I make the real world decisions. And I got full control of my ECM.

[Anti Federalist]

Hack these tech-boy!

http://www.lewisfab.com/store/images/uploads/points_012.jpg

Fucking Bravo!!!

Wonder how many youngsters even know what those are...

[tod evans]

Fucking Bravo!!!

Wonder how many youngsters even know what those are...


How about this?

http://img.jpcycles.com/zoom/360-619_A.jpg

[69360]

I'll never buy a car that has any of that crap. Mine has one computer that controls the engine with no external links to anything. I've been considering getting a spare and keeping it in a faraday cage in case of emp.

I'm also looking to buy a shtf truck. I'm looking at an ex-military cucv blazer with a mechanically injected diesel and no electronics. If not that then an old jeep with points and carb.

[Anti Federalist]

I'll never buy a car that has any of that crap. Mine has one computer that controls the engine with no external links to anything. I've been considering getting a spare and keeping it in a faraday cage in case of emp.

I'm also looking to buy a shtf truck. I'm looking at an ex-military cucv blazer with a mechanically injected diesel and no electronics. If not that then an old jeep with points and carb.

I did the same thing, retro fitted an F150 with a non computerized, carbed, 300 inline six.

I run a Davis Unified Ignition for normal everyday work, but have a points and breaker distributor and coil on the shelf that can be put in under an hour.

[Anti Federalist]

How about this?

http://img.jpcycles.com/zoom/360-619_A.jpg

Built three hard tail scooters years ago.

All three had magnetos.

[tod evans]

Built three hard tail scooters years ago.

All three had Morris Magnetos.

Can't award you cyber bucks...

Somebody cover me please..:o

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.

[AFPVet]

All of these new vehicles are drive by wire. What this means is there is no physical connections from your pedals to the actuating mechanisms. My car is a 2000, so it still has physical throttle, transmission, and brake connections :)

[QuickZ06]

Af I will do some research for ya. I got a buddy that is very heavy in the VW community so I will see what he has to say.

[69360]

Some of the new ones are steer by wire. :eek:

[tod evans]

Hydraulic steering!

Not for me thanks anyway!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-owqWjvl03tg/TcRMPH3f1XI/AAAAAAAAAC4/11kE9zoEH6c/s400/spyder1.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

Af I will do some research for ya. I got a buddy that is very heavy in the VW community so I will see what he has to say.

Thanks, very much appreciated.

Fred's TDI Forum is good source of VW diesel info.

http://www.tdiclub.com/

That was where I recall someone posting that you could re-flash the ECM to disable the RFID Key Chip immobilizer.

That is of the electronic do-funnies I really hate and hope to do away with.

Short of an EMP pulse, that is what will shut you down, right there.

[green73]

Fucking Bravo!!!

Wonder how many youngsters even know what those are...

Ignition points
http://catofamily.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/smug_seamus.jpg?w=495

[green73]

How about this?

http://img.jpcycles.com/zoom/360-619_A.jpg

Magneto
http://catofamily.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/smug_seamus.jpg?w=495

[tod evans]

Ignition points


Okay smarty pants, if you gap points with a matchbook cover what is the average dwell reading?

[Anti Federalist]

Okay smarty pants, if you gap points with a matchbook cover what is the average dwell reading?

Match Book?

Is that Farcebook for dating?

[pcosmar]

All of these new vehicles are drive by wire. What this means is there is no physical connections from your pedals to the actuating mechanisms. My car is a 2000, so it still has physical throttle, transmission, and brake connections :)
Few that I have heard of,, none that I would have. There IS too damn much computer control.. that is not owner/driver responsive.

They are going that way,,and trying to promote it. Directional EMP has been available.. Cars can be disabled even if they are not controlled.

and other than some throttles, (Toyota?) Most cars still have some mechanical connection,,without power, on steering and brakes.

I personally would not feel comfortable in any fly by wire car.

[green73]

Okay smarty pants, if you gap points with a matchbook cover what is the average dwell reading?

How many cylinders?
http://catofamily.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/smug_seamus.jpg?w=495

[pcosmar]

How many cylinders?

:rolleyes:
Wrong question..

"How many points?" would have been a valid question.
Or,, "what card of paper in the matchbook?" might have been good.

.17 to .19 gets you in the ballpark.

[Anti Federalist]

How many cylinders?

Positraction.

[Anti Federalist]

:rolleyes:
Wrong question..

"How many points?" would have been a valid question.
Or,, "what card of paper in the matchbook?" might have been good.

.17 to .19 gets you in the ballpark.

The young man is correct.

Dwell angle varies with number of cylinders.

The period of points closure is specified by the ignition system designer and is typically expressed as degrees of distributor rotation. In a four cylinder engine, the angle between each ignition cam lobe is 90° and the period of points closure or "DWELL" is usually a bit over 45° of distributor rotation. In a six cylinder engine, the lobes are 60° apart and the dwell time is 30° to 35°.

The dwell is adjusted by setting the points gap to a specified distance at maximum opening. A narrower gap gives more dwell and a wider gap gives less. Taking it to extremes, excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse before it delivers all its energy. Too little dwell gives the magnetic flux insufficient time to build up to the maximum.

Both conditions give a weak spark which gets even weaker as the engine RPM rises and produces misfiring at normal operating speeds. The dwell, as well as spark plug gap, do have an effect on ignition timing. The later the points open, the later the spark comes and retards the timing. The earlier the points open the sooner the spark comes and advances the timing. That is why timing is the last thing to be set in a tune-up.

[pcosmar]

I just got a 95 dodge truck.. And I would love to replace a lot of computer.

I need to replace the front U joints first.

[green73]

The young man is correct.

Dwell angle varies with number of cylinders.

The period of points closure is specified by the ignition system designer and is typically expressed as degrees of distributor rotation. In a four cylinder engine, the angle between each ignition cam lobe is 90° and the period of points closure or "DWELL" is usually a bit over 45° of distributor rotation. In a six cylinder engine, the lobes are 60° apart and the dwell time is 30° to 35°.

The dwell is adjusted by setting the points gap to a specified distance at maximum opening. A narrower gap gives more dwell and a wider gap gives less. Taking it to extremes, excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse before it delivers all its energy. Too little dwell gives the magnetic flux insufficient time to build up to the maximum.

Both conditions give a weak spark which gets even weaker as the engine RPM rises and produces misfiring at normal operating speeds. The dwell, as well as spark plug gap, do have an effect on ignition timing. The later the points open, the later the spark comes and retards the timing. The earlier the points open the sooner the spark comes and advances the timing. That is why timing is the last thing to be set in a tune-up.

Thank you.
http://catofamily.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/smug_seamus.jpg?w=495

[Anti Federalist]

I just got a 95 dodge truck.. And I would love to replace a lot of computer.

I need to replace the front U joints first.

What engine?

If it's a standard 318 block, you can.

Pull the throttle body and port injection manifold, replace with a smooth flow Edelbrock or similar with 650 cfm 4 bbl.

A Davis Unified Ignition will provide fire and should drop right in.

Rip all the rest of that computer shit out like a rotted tooth.

[pcosmar]

The young man is correct.

Dwell angle varies with number of cylinders.

The period of points closure is specified by the ignition system designer and is typically expressed as degrees of distributor rotation. In a four cylinder engine, the angle between each ignition cam lobe is 90° and the period of points closure or "DWELL" is usually a bit over 45° of distributor rotation. In a six cylinder engine, the lobes are 60° apart and the dwell time is 30° to 35°.

The dwell is adjusted by setting the points gap to a specified distance at maximum opening. A narrower gap gives more dwell and a wider gap gives less. Taking it to extremes, excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse before it delivers all its energy. Too little dwell gives the magnetic flux insufficient time to build up to the maximum.

Both conditions give a weak spark which gets even weaker as the engine RPM rises and produces misfiring at normal operating speeds. The dwell, as well as spark plug gap, do have an effect on ignition timing. The later the points open, the later the spark comes and retards the timing. The earlier the points open the sooner the spark comes and advances the timing. That is why timing is the last thing to be set in a tune-up.

It also varies by can load and spark energy..

But I have used a common match book on V8 and single cylinders.. and that old Trophy.
It will get you in the ball park.

[pcosmar]

What engine?

If it's a standard 318 block, you can.

5.2 magnum I think. All the fuel injection and ECM...

years back it was common to carry spare brain boxes in mopar trucks.
It is still a huge drawback.

[Anti Federalist]

It also varies by can load and spark energy..

But I have used a common match book on V8 and single cylinders.. and that old Trophy.
It will get you in the ball park.

Yes, it will

[green73]

We're all banned for derailing.

[Anti Federalist]

5.2 magnum I think. All the fuel injection and ECM...

years back it was common to carry spare brain boxes in mopar trucks.
It is still a huge drawback.

Damn...a 1992 Magnum you say?

All the intake and head specs changed in 1992.

If it was a 1991, you could have bolted on a carb, manifold and distributor, as it was just a 318 CID block, unchanged in basic design from the 1960s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_LA_engine

[Anti Federalist]

We're all banned for derailing.

Derailing for gearheads is permitted.

[Anti Federalist]

5.2 magnum I think. All the fuel injection and ECM...

years back it was common to carry spare brain boxes in mopar trucks.
It is still a huge drawback.

Off topic, you have any luck getting an engine for Old Blue?

[pcosmar]

Derailing for gearheads is permitted.

1995..

but I'm not sure it can't be done.. may require modification. I'm sure I can find some distributor to fit it..

Just got it going and it died on me today.. Coil I think. but with the damned brain it is hard to tell.. It was raining so I gave up on it for the day.

[tod evans]

How many cylinders?


Sorry, earnin' a livin' got in the way...

SBC is the most common engine, or it used to be back in the days of points...

AF covered it though...

[pcosmar]

Haven't even pulled it apart.. Don't want to see what I expect to see.

procrastination.

[tod evans]

Haven't even pulled it apart.. Don't want to see what I expect to see.

procrastination.

Does it have cast heads Pete?

[pcosmar]

Does it have cast heads Pete?

I have to pull the oil pan. But yes the tractor is all cast.

The oil pan is Cast,, and structural. An ordeal and adventure that I am not looking forward to.

[green73]

Sorry, earnin' a livin' got in the way...

SBC is the most common engine, or it used to be back in the days of points...

AF covered it though...

Yes. Any more questions?
http://catofamily.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/smug_seamus.jpg?w=495

[Anti Federalist]

Haven't even pulled it apart.. Don't want to see what I expect to see.

procrastination.

I don't blame you.

I know what you're going to see as well, without even being there.

[limequat]

Didn't watch the video...

But the only way for a car to be remotely hacked is if it has some sort of telemetry system, i.e; Onstar. Onstar can be remotely activated too, even if you're not a subscriber. If the telemetry company was complicit, it would be easy to drive a car off a cliff. Otherwise, it would take thousands of man hours to reverse engineer the system. Some grad students proved this point.

I like the idea of having a carb on the shelf in case of a shtf type scenario, but I'd never use one voluntarily.

69360, there is currently no steer-by-wire vehicles out there that I'm aware of. Nissan is working on it. Most new vehicles are electric assist. Meaning the driver always has control (ostensibly).

If you guys really want to freak out over automotive stuff, google "DSRC". This protocol will allow your vehicle to communicate with other vehicles and roadsigns. One of the alleged benefits is that it will allow "emergency" vehicles to take control of your vehicle. You know, because ambulance crashes are such a huge problem. Implementation of this protocol is slated for as early as next year. The only people talking about it are those working the nuts and bolts. The concern over car-hacking with DSRC is very real. But it won't be hackers. It will be state goons.

[green73]

Didn't watch the video...

Stopped reading there.

[limequat]

http://www.its.dot.gov/factsheets/dsrc_factsheet.htm

DSRC: The Future of Safer Driving
What is DSRC?
DSRC (Dedicated Short Range Communications) is a two-way short- to- medium-range wireless communications capability that permits very high data transmission critical in communications-based active safety applications. In Report and Order FCC-03-324, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) allocated 75 MHz of spectrum in the 5.9 GHz band for use by Intelligent Transportations Systems (ITS) vehicle safety and mobility applications.
DSRC based communications is a major research priority of the Joint Program Office (ITS JPO) at the U.S. Department of Transportation (U.S. DOT) Research and Innovative Technology Administration (RITA). The cross-modal program is conducting research using DSRC and other wireless communications technologies to ensure safe, interoperable connectivity to help prevent vehicular crashes of all types and to enhance mobility and environmental benefits across all transportation system modes.
The U.S. DOT’s commitment to DSRC for active safety communications contributes to safer driving. Vehicle safety applications that use vehicle-to-vehicle (V2V) and vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I) communications need secure, wireless interface dependability in extreme weather conditions, and short time delays; all of which are facilitated by DSRC.
Who can develop DSRC technologies?
Device manufacturers, application developers, representatives from the automotive, telecommunications, consumer electronics and other industries whose products communicate alerts to vehicles, the infrastructure or traveler’s personal communication devices.
How is DSRC being used?
V2V and V2I applications utilizing DSRC may have the potential to significantly reduce many of the most deadly types of crashes through real time advisories alerting drivers to imminent hazards–such as veering close to the edge of the road; vehicles suddenly stopped ahead; collision paths during merging; the presence of nearby communications devices and vehicles; sharp curves or slippery patches of roadway ahead.
Convenience V2I services like e-parking and toll payment are also able to communicate using DSRC. Anonymous information from electronic sensors in vehicles and devices can also be transmitted over DSRC to provide better traffic and travel condition information to travelers and transportation managers.
A Connected, Safer Transportation System includes, Crash Prevention and Mobility Applications
Connected Vehicle ITS applications provide connectivity

Among vehicles to help prevent crashes
Between vehicles and infrastructure to enable safety, mobility and environmental sustainability
Among vehicles, infrastructure, and passengers’ wireless devices to provide continuous real-time connectivity to all system users
DSRC Technology Behind Crash Prevention and Mobility Supports

Active safety transportation applications
Reliable, secure communications
Fast communication speed low latency
Invulnerability to extreme weather
Tolerance of multi-path transmissions
Technology based on standards to enable interoperability
Why was DSRC developed and to what benefit?
DSRC was developed with a primary goal of enabling technologies that support safety applications and communication between vehicle-based devices and infrastructure to reduce collisions. DSRC is the only short-range wireless alternative today that provides:

Designated licensed bandwidth: For secure, reliable communications to take place. It is primarily allocated for vehicle safety applications by FCC Report and Order FCC 03-324.
Fast Network Acquisition: Active safety applications require the immediate establishment of communication and frequent updates.
Low Latency: Active safety applications must recognize each other and transmit messages to each other in milliseconds without delay.
High Reliability when Required: Active safety applications require a high level of link reliability. DSRC works in high vehicle speed mobility conditions and delivers performance immune to extreme weather conditions (e.g. rain, fog, snow, etc.).
Priority for Safety Applications: Safety applications on DSRC are given priority over non-safety applications.
Interoperability: DSRC ensures interoperability, which is the key to successful deployment of active safety applications, using widely accepted standards. It supports both V2V and V2I communications.
Security and Privacy: DSRC provides safety message authentication and privacy.
DSRC enables the most reliable, high speed vehicle-based technology for crash prevention safety applications
DSRC provides for a broad cross-section of dedicated connectivity options for surface transportation safety
DSRC based communications serves as the basis for connected vehicle safety and mobility application integration
Potential DSRC Transportation Applications for Public Safety and Traffic Management

Blind spot warnings
Forward collision warnings
Sudden braking ahead warnings
Do not pass warnings
Intersection collision avoidance and movement assistance
Approaching emergency vehicle warning
Vehicle safety inspection
Transit or emergency vehicle signal priority
Electronic parking and toll payments
Commercial vehicle clearance and safety inspections
In-vehicle signing
Rollover warning
Traffic and travel condition data to improve traveler information and maintenance services
To learn more about this research, contact:

Walton Fehr
Program Manager
ITS Joint Program Office
Research and Innovative Technology Administration
(202) 366-0278
walton.fehr@dot.gov

- See more at: http://www.its.dot.gov/factsheets/dsrc_factsheet.htm#sthash.TmND7iAX.dpuf

[green73]

tldr

[Anti Federalist]

If you guys really want to freak out over automotive stuff, google "DSRC". This protocol will allow your vehicle to communicate with other vehicles and roadsigns. One of the alleged benefits is that it will allow "emergency" vehicles to take control of your vehicle. You know, because ambulance crashes are such a huge problem. Implementation of this protocol is slated for as early as next year. The only people talking about it are those working the nuts and bolts. The concern over car-hacking with DSRC is very real. But it won't be hackers. It will be state goons.

Yes, this.

This is what the driverless people pod will use as a wireless control grid.

The driverless people pod that so many technogeeks around here are misty eyed over.

You will be under total state control and surveillance at all times in these things.

[Anti Federalist]

tldr

Short version.

Total wireless surveillance and control grid.

That people will love.

[limequat]

Short version.

Total wireless surveillance and control grid.

That people will love.

If they even know about it.

The early suspicion is that this will be integrated into the radio. So we may be able to get around it at first by using aftermarket heads. But eventually that will be illegal and it will be mandatory to have one of these V2V and V2I units in your car.

[green73]

Didn't watch the video...

But the only way for a car to be remotely hacked is if it has some sort of telemetry system, i.e; Onstar. Onstar can be remotely activated too, even if you're not a subscriber. If the telemetry company was complicit, it would be easy to drive a car off a cliff. Otherwise, it would take thousands of man hours to reverse engineer the system. Some grad students proved this point.

I like the idea of having a carb on the shelf in case of a shtf type scenario, but I'd never use one voluntarily.

69360, there is currently no steer-by-wire vehicles out there that I'm aware of. Nissan is working on it. Most new vehicles are electric assist. Meaning the driver always has control (ostensibly).

If you guys really want to freak out over automotive stuff, google "DSRC". This protocol will allow your vehicle to communicate with other vehicles and roadsigns. One of the alleged benefits is that it will allow "emergency" vehicles to take control of your vehicle. You know, because ambulance crashes are such a huge problem. Implementation of this protocol is slated for as early as next year. The only people talking about it are those working the nuts and bolts. The concern over car-hacking with DSRC is very real. But it won't be hackers. It will be state goons.


Short version.

Total wireless surveillance and control grid.

That people will love.


If they even know about it.

The early suspicion is that this will be integrated into the radio. So we may be able to get around it at first by using aftermarket heads. But eventually that will be illegal and it will be mandatory to have one of these V2V and V2I units in your car.

Apologies.

[catfeathers]

LOL, I surprised myself. I know what points look like! My husband is putting his 1964 Mercury back on the road in a month or two. If I had a little money my 67 Beetle would be back on the road already. No computers in our cars!

[tangent4ronpaul]

Not the same set of slides she didn't show us, but a set on the same topic...

http://she-devel.com/MFBoothContent.pdf
also go to: http://autosec.org

-t

[FindLiberty]

1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 = Good-eye-mite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9wZvcr3v2c