Dems filibustering Texas abortion bill (live stream)

[Carlybee]

Repubs trying to stop the filibuster


http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2013/06/live-senator-filibusters-texas-abortion-bill/

[Antischism]

Good on Wendy Davis. Hope she lasts through the filibuster.

[Origanalist]

Good on Wendy Davis. Hope she lasts through the filibuster.

Ya, cuz killing your baby after 20 weeks is worth fighting for. She's a real hero.

[Antischism]

Ya, cuz killing your baby after 20 weeks is worth fighting for. She's a real hero.

If signed into law, the measures would close almost every abortion clinic in Texas.

No, thanks.

[QueenB4Liberty]

Ya, cuz killing your baby after 20 weeks is worth fighting for. She's a real hero.

I don't think they are fighting to do that.

[Keith and stuff]

Democrats have a use! Wonderful.

BTW, thanks for starting yet another abortion debate here. That's exactly what we needed!

[Origanalist]

The bill would ban abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy and force many clinics that perform the procedure to upgrade their facilities and be classified as ambulatory surgical centers.

//

[awake]

With out opening the great debate, abortion is a government funded "option". No one should ever forget who and what has killed 170 million human beings in the previous century under the guise of "protection". I wonder if the death machine will out do itself in this century?

Morally speaking, a life contracted to be sold at birth is an aborted abortion. Buying babies from mothers who would abort may seem immoral, but only because the abortion rights people were able to dehumanize the earliest humans into "fetuses" , or sub human parasites. Free market adoption, even with the moral "dangers", gives a chance to the unborn child amongst an otherwise government decided evil.

As it goes, just another perpetual affliction thanks to the theft and slavery that is government.

[Carlybee]

Democrats have a use! Wonderful.

BTW, thanks for starting yet another abortion debate here. That's exactly what we needed!


I posted an informational video showing the filibuster process taking place over a game changing vote...regardless of which side you support. If people aren't mature enough to have a rational discussion I don't know what to tell you. I guess you can ask a mod to delete it if you are going to get all butt hurt over it.

[BamaAla]

If signed into law, the measures would close almost every abortion clinic in Texas.

No, thanks.

The horror!

[Keith and stuff]

If people aren't mature enough to have a rational discussion I don't know what to tell you.


I guess you can ask a mod to delete it if you are going to get all butt hurt over it.
Pot, meet kettle.
:)

[Christian Liberty]

If signed into law, the measures would close almost every abortion clinic in Texas.

No, thanks.

That's good, and the STATE level is the proper level to punish (And yes, I said PUNISH) all such murders that occur.

[Carlybee]

Pot, meet kettle.
:)


You can dispense with the douchbaggery. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to come into the topic. The link is there for anyone interested in watching.

[aGameOfThrones]

If signed into law, the measures would close almost every abortion clinic in Texas.

No, thanks.

yeah, for the children.

[Keith and stuff]

You can dispense with the douchbaggery. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to come into the topic. The link is there for anyone interested in watching.
Please try to be nicer to people on this forum in the future. I do agree about I didn't have to comment on this thread. Oh, and you do make a good point. I find it very interesting that people are able to filibuster in the TX legislature.
+Rep

[QueenB4Liberty]

People are going to have abortions anyhow. Might as well make it safe until there is an artificial incubator that makes abortion obsolete. Even though we have so much contraception options and everyone knows about sex, it's not enough.

[Origanalist]

http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Rand-Paul-filibuster-we-will-not-tolerate-Facebook-photo-300x250.png

Sen. Wendy Davis, D-Fort Worth, stands in an effort to kill an abortion bill, Tuesday, June 25, 2013, in Austin, Texas. The bill would ban abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy and force many clinics that perform the procedure to upgrade their facilities and be classified as ambulatory surgical centers. (AP Photo/Eric Gay)

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/22/34/43/4835535/7/628x471.jpg

[Mr.NoSmile]

Go figure. #Standwithwendy now trending on Twitter

[angelatc]

It is just a show. If she makes it to midnight Texas time, the bill (and two more) are dead, but Gov Perry will likely call a special session so it will pass anyway.

The procedure seems to have a 3 strikes provision. She's received two warnings so far. One for wandering off topic, and another for putting on a back support. If she gets warned again, the Senate can vote to end her filibuster by a simple majority.

Tim Carney on Twitter: Southern Democrat is filibustering a legislative effort to recognize a class of humans as being human.

[Mr.NoSmile]

Apparently a third strike already happened for mentioning ultrasounds, but I believe the motion is being appealed, so there's a new Chair.

Interesting to see the comments on Huffington Post in strong support of the filibuster, which I'm guessing would be in stark contrast to what Paul got. Could be party affiliation, could be the subject matter, could be anything, but couldn't help but notice.

[Carlybee]

Please try to be nicer to people on this forum in the future. I do agree about I didn't have to comment on this thread. Oh, and you do make a good point. I find it very interesting that people are able to filibuster in the TX legislature.
+Rep

Well...you are the one who made the sarcastic remark about me starting the topic..just responding in kind...at least I took it to be sarcastic. At any rate..no harm/no foul and I am generally very nice. Except when I'm not. :p

[angelatc]

Apparently a third strike already happened for mentioning ultrasounds, but I believe the motion is being appealed, so there's a new Chair.

Interesting to see the comments on Huffington Post in strong support of the filibuster, which I'm guessing would be in stark contrast to what Paul got. Could be party affiliation, could be the subject matter, could be anything, but couldn't help but notice.


You're right!!! As I type this, the Statesman is reporting that the challenge has been upheld, so the filibuster is all but over. http://www.statesman.com/news/news/davis-starts-filibuster-to-stop-abortion-bill/nYTqs/

Now AP is reporting that the "kilibuster" has been broken, (http://www.statesman.com/ap/ap/crime/texas-senator-filibusters-against-abortion-bill/nYTrZ/)(ok, that's not the word they used) but the live stream seems to still be up?

[Mr.NoSmile]

I'm pretty sure I saw her sitting at one point- unless that was a different woman- but maybe the stream's up just to show the rest of the debate. Or maybe it's not over yet. Dunno.

Edit: And good luck to whatever person ends up running against her, because she will get so much support from her efforts on this.

[Carlybee]

The libs don't understand the rules of the filibuster...lots of comments on different sites accusing the Repubs of "cheating". One I saw "That was so mean of them to take away her chair." lol

[Rudeman]

All the Dems that were nowhere to be seen on Paul's filibuster are out in full force on twitter supporting this "great act of democracy in action", including their God/King Obama.

Some even comparing her to Rosa Parks.

[Antischism]

All the Dems that were nowhere to be seen on Paul's filibuster are out in full force on twitter supporting this "great act of democracy in action", including their God/King Obama.

Party politics are shit. But to be fair, I definitely saw a good amount of liberals who supported Rand's filibuster. People who normally bad-mouth Rand, even.

[Carlybee]

From Twitter #standwithwendy These will be the headlines tomorrow


"GOP decides to bypass rules - invokes wealthy white privilege and votes anyways!"

"Senate GOP is trying to cheat their way to passing #SB5 after midnight. they've ignored rules all night. this is not new"

"We are the people! We are the constituents! Listen to us!"

"The People are filibustering. This is so American, I just shat a bald eagle."

[angelatc]

The Illinois legislature has been known to do this, but they at least stop the clock to make it ok.

The way I saw it was that the protesters in the gallery started screaming so that the Senate couldn't vote, so they cleared the gallery, then voted. The left is an ugly mob.

[Carlybee]

The state troopers were called out. I'm betting there will be some arrests in Austin tonight although I saw one tweet that said the troopers were refusing to clear the gallery. I'm thinking I kind of like that.

[Carlybee]

Bill passed to close most clinics in Texas http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=9151839


Women and girls will now just do what they did before Roe v Wade and go over the border to get them or there will be the back alley butchers. It's not going to stop it and they may have really jeopardized themselves with young female voters. I am going to be pissed if Texas turns blue because of this because one thing the Dems do is they turn out. I hope it was worth being the morality police.

[supermario21]

Texas is not going to turn blue over this. The bill has greater than 60% support according to a poll taken 1 or 2 days ago. This is the Austin communist party mobilizing and that's it.

[angelatc]

Yes, because it's a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE thing to insist that abortion clinics are sanitary.

Making women decide to kill bastard child before they're 5 months along? INHUMANE!

Yeah, the right is soooooooo extreme.

[Carlybee]

Just stating what I believe will happen and based on the fact that I remember what it was like when abortion was illegal here. Texas is on the verge of if not already being majority hispanic...and yes while many hispanics are pro life, they also know which side their bread is buttered on. I would never take it for granted that the Texas legislature couldn't turn blue. That being said, apparently it looks like the vote was taken after midnight so it's being appealed.

[supermario21]

This makes me wonder why we didn't mobilize in places like Colorado over gun control. This was a militant extremist protest going on in the state house. And why I think people like Rand and Ron are right in saying we should have a national debate over the issue. At 20 weeks you can clearly see a well developed fetus. Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of third and second trimester abortions. This is something to expose the left on.

[Carlybee]

This makes me wonder why we didn't mobilize in places like Colorado over gun control. This was a militant extremist protest going on in the state house. And why I think people like Rand and Ron are right in saying we should have a national debate over the issue. At 20 weeks you can clearly see a well developed fetus. Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of third and second trimester abortions. This is something to expose the left on.

Expose them to who? People who support it, agree with them. People who don't, already know. How is that going to change anything but telling everyone something they already know?

[supermario21]

Expose them to who? People who support it, agree with them. People who don't, already know. How is that going to change anything but telling everyone something they already know?

The general public that doesn't pay attention hears WAR ON WOMEN being screamed by the feminazis constantly. This is being made to look like a trampling of democratic rights yet it is a bill that most Texans support.

[Carlybee]

The general public that doesn't pay attention hears WAR ON WOMEN being screamed by the feminazis constantly. This is being made to look like a trampling of democratic rights yet it is a bill that most Texans support.

Well, we'll just have to let it play out and see what happens.

[fr33]

Her election was a very ugly one from both sides. I don't live there but my tv stations do and the ads were very distasteful.

[James Madison]

A woman arguing for the mother's right to murder her child. Wow, what a hero. :rolleyes:

[BamaAla]

A woman arguing for the mother's right to murder her child. Wow, what a hero. :rolleyes:

According to her wikipedia page, she had a bastard child as a teen; I wonder if her kid is a big fan?

[Carlybee]

Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.

[James Madison]

Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.

But it does. It's not really up for debate. I mean, you might as well be arguing with people who believe the earth is flat.

[Carlybee]

But it does. It's not really up for debate. I mean, you might as well be arguing with people who believe the earth is flat.

You can't FORCE people to believe something they don't believe, so yes it is up for debate. And not everyone in this country is a Christian either or believes in the existence of God or that the bible is real. Ignoring the fact just makes you look insular. You cannot force people to believe something just because you do. It's that type of thinking that won the election for Obama. Because those people who you think shouldn't have a voice, showed up.

[James Madison]

You can't FORCE people to believe something they don't believe, so yes it is up for debate. And not everyone in this country is a Christian either or believes in the existence of God or that the bible is real. Ignoring the fact just makes you look insular. You cannot force people to believe something just because you do. It's that type of thinking that won the election for Obama. Because those people who you think shouldn't have a voice, showed up.

Why are you bringing religion into this? This is a purely scientific debate. Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

[Carlybee]

Why are you bringing religion into this? This is a purely scientific debate. Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

Leave religion out then. You still can't force people to believe what they don't want to believe. And if half the country doesn't believe it and will never believe it then you cannot force them to accept it. And that half of the country has voting rights. And when you try to force you get resistance...human nature. This is not a winnable battle. You can legislate abortion all day long and it's not going to make anyone stop having an abortion. They will just go elsewhere or a string of back alley butchers will pop up...which is exactly what happened the last time abortion was illegal in Texas. Doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong it's what happens.

[James Madison]

Leave religion out then. You still can't force people to believe what they don't want to believe. And if half the country doesn't believe it and will never believe it then you cannot force them to accept it. And that half of the country has voting rights. And when you try to force you get resistance...human nature.

If people are that wilfully ignorant we're pretty much SOL. You realize that, right?

[Carlybee]

If people are that wilfully ignorant we're pretty much SOL. You realize that, right?


That's a forgone conclusion but I personally prefer to choose my battles and this isn't one of them for me. The shredding of our Bill of Rights is more important to me at the moment because once those are gone we will be unable to speak out about any issue that is important to us. I stand by the Libertarian platform with regard to abortion even though I would prefer no one ever have an abortion. I don't believe it is or will ever be a winnable fight. I believe education and peer pressure are the only things that will stop it...not legislation. People tend to get pissed when you tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. And unless you are willing to pay for them to raise a child or find someone to adopt it, they will always take the easy way out. But you can keep spinning your wheels and keep giving the libs a reason to show up and vote.

People also do see it as a religious issue because the churches push pro life legislation. Many of the same churches that believe that Islam should be destroyed by any means necessary so people see it as hypocrisy to say one values life yet has no problem with taking life. (not saying all churches are like this but many see them that way.) Those same churches enjoy tax free status and by law are not supposed to have any influence on elections...that's not the way people see it. If you want to bring people into the fold these are things that have to be considered. If the Republicans as a party don't figure out a way to bring people in, they are doomed because they are already splintered between the neocons, the Tea Partiers, and the pro liberty faction. One thing the Dems do well is come together even if they have disagreements on platform. They are like a bunch of rabid dogs and these types of issues are like a juicy bone to them.

[JCDenton0451]

Why are you bringing religion into this? This is a purely scientific debate. Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

How do you explain the fact that "pro-life" movement is firmly anchored in the evangelical community, while the atheists and Jews are the most pro-abortion groups by overwhelming margins? Clearly, your position on abortion depends on your religious background. Religion has everything to do with this.

Also, how old are you, Madison? Do you count your years since the moment your mother was impregnated or something?

[JCDenton0451]

http://www.jewishjournal.com/judaismandscience/item/the_curious_consensus_of_jews_on_abortion

First, let’s look at the PRRI data. Essentially regardless of denominational affiliation or demographics, American Jews think abortion should be legal in all (49%) or almost all (44%) cases. That is, fully 93% of all American Jews support legalized abortion in some fashion. Even political leanings, while influential, are not determinative. Among Jewish Democrats support is 95%, but 77% of Jewish Republicans also favor legalized abortion in all or most cases, far exceeding the rate of other groups studied.


The comparable numbers for other faith groups is quite different not only in their overall support or opposition to legalized abortion, but in the internal differences within each group. Jews are the only group surveyed in which a plurality support abortion in all cases. While about half of all Jews support abortion in all cases, in no other faith group does such support exceed 25% of the population. Moreover, in comparison to the 93% total of Jews who support legalized abortion in all or most cases, the only other group surveyed that showed clear majority support for legalized abortion was white mainline Protestants (59%). The comparable numbers for black Protestants and Catholics are 50% and 48%. Just one-third of white evangelicals support abortion in all or most situations.



Do you think that Jews support abortion because they're ignorant or what? lol

[James Madison]

How do you explain the fact that "pro-life" movement is firmly anchored in the evangelical community, while the atheists and Jews are the most pro-abortion groups by overwhelming margins? Clearly, your position on abortion depends on your religious background. Religion has everything to do with this.


This is quite possibly one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on RPFs and underlines the dangers that go with collectivist worldviews. So, congrats for that.

A single fertilzed egg meeting every criteria for a living organism is a fact. If you can't understand that, go back to Biology 100. You can use my old textbooks because your's clearly aren't working.


Also, how old are you, Madison? Do you count your years since the moment your mother was impregnated or something.

No, because thousands of years ago, science -- let alone biology -- didn't exist. We grew up; we learned new things. Some of the old world carried over into the new. People still say 'to the ends of the Earth'. Doesn't mean they believe the earth is flat.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

How do you explain the fact that "pro-life" movement is firmly anchored in the evangelical community, while the atheists and Jews are the most pro-abortion groups by overwhelming margins? Clearly, your position on abortion depends on your religious background. Religion has everything to do with this.

Also, how old are you, Madison? Do you count your years since the moment your mother was impregnated or something?

Koreans do and so do a lot of other East Asian countries. I don't see why not, except that it is not a norm / customary in the West. Our age is at the time we were born (In the west), but no one (except the most ignorant out there) would deny that the prior time you were in your mother does not count as time, or proclaim that you were dead in the womb then miraculously came alive @ time of birth.

[James Madison]

Koreans do and so do a lot of other East Asian countries. I don't see why not, except that it is not a norm / customary in the West. Our age is at the time we were born (In the west), but no one (except the most ignorant out there) would deny that the prior time you were in your mother does not count as time, or proclaim that you were dead in the womb then miraculously came alive @ time of birth.

You've hit on a very interesting point.

Those who support abortion rights yet condemn murder outside the womb have no choice but to invoke the existence of a mysterious life force that flows into you as you are born. That, of course, is complete rubbish. You can rip on Christians for being anti-Science, but most atheists and the left as a whole are just as guilty.

[romeno182]

Anyone who doesn't accept that life begins at conception needs to retake Biology 100.

yes when u finish the act there is a 3 person in the room.. pff pathetic

[Carlybee]

Bill failed, unable to be signed before midnight. Wonder why the proponents didn't show up?

I hope someone is paying attention because this is what happens when people do show up.

[KEEF]

Found one of my posts from 2011 on the subject of when life begins.

I second that. Coming from a biologist perspective when I discuss this with my college students, I always ask them if would the scientific community go nuts about finding life on another planet if the only thing they found was independent DNA?...they absolutely would... So if that is life, why isn't an embryo considered life upon conception since it too has its own unique DNA independent of its parents?

[Carlybee]

Texas is not going to turn blue over this. The bill has greater than 60% support according to a poll taken 1 or 2 days ago. This is the Austin communist party mobilizing and that's it.


I guess the 60% were home sleeping.

[JCDenton0451]

A single fertilzed egg meeting every criteria for a living organism is a fact.

Yes, but who says that its existence should be protected by the law? Certainly not the US Constitution.

Your abortion restrictions would make life difficult for millions of people for no good reason, other than your personal (Christian) beliefs and convictions.

[shane77m]

If we can't kill them babies the world will become overpopulated. It is not like those bastard children will grow up to amount to anything anyways. :toady:

I wonder if I PETA would get all bent out of shape if I opened an abortion clinic for animals?
You say your cat got knocked up? Well bring her in. We'll suck the little parasites out. Hell, we will even euthanize them if they survive the process.


I find it ironic how so many people argue that people have a right to medical care to keep people healthy and alive but also argue for the right to kill babies.

[KEEF]

If we can't kill them babies the world will become overpopulated. It is not like those bastard children will grow up to amount to anything anyways. :toady:

I wonder if I PETA would get all bent out of shape if I opened an abortion clinic for animals?
You say your cat got knocked up? Well bring her in. We'll suck the little parasites out. Hell, we will even euthanize them if they survive the process.


I find it ironic how so many people argue that people have a right to medical care to keep people healthy and alive but also argue for the right to kill babies.

I like it, we can call it Planned Pethood

[JCDenton0451]

You've hit on a very interesting point.

Those who support abortion rights yet condemn murder outside the womb have no choice but to invoke the existence of a mysterious life force that flows into you as you are born. That, of course, is complete rubbish. You can rip on Christians for being anti-Science, but most atheists and the left as a whole are just as guilty.

The reason human society invented laws (and corresponding moral norms) against homicide is to protect the members of society. Each of us supports the punishment for murder because it is in our best interest to have this kind of action prohibited by the law and social norm. Abortion is different obviously. How are you threatened by other people having abortions?

Among the first-world countries America is the only one that still debates abortion, all because we have such a huge population of religious fanatics.

[JCDenton0451]

If we can't kill them babies the world will become overpopulated. It is not like those bastard children will grow up to amount to anything anyways. :toady:

Well, are you personally happy to pay all the taxes necessary to sustain welfare programs that children like these and their mothers rely on? And don't forget about the prisons where many of these unwanted and unloved children WILL end up eventually. You'll have to pay for this too. US crime rates have fallen dramatically since 1980s. Widespread availability of abortion and contraception undoubtedly played a part in that.

[supermario21]

Thankfully Perry will probably just call another session and this will pass. Also, Dewhurst was borderline incompetent the way he ran the floor. Thankfully he lost to Cruz.

[Christian Liberty]

The reason human society invented laws (and corresponding moral norms) against homicide is to protect the members of society. Each of us supports the punishment for murder because it is in our best interest to have this kind of action prohibited by the law and social norm. Abortion is different obviously. How are you threatened by other people having abortions?

Among the first-world countries America is the only one that still debates abortion, all because we have such a huge population of religious fanatics.

America is the only country with a liberty movement too...

Your argument is basically, we shouldn't support laws against abortion because the only people who will be killed can't defend themselves.

Why not legalize the murder of the mentally disabled, then? Because that's the logical conclusion to this insane proposition.

Ugh...

Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.

You know what? I really don't care what they think.

Right is right and wrong is wrong, period. Your rights end where somebody else's rights begin.


Leave religion out then. You still can't force people to believe what they don't want to believe. And if half the country doesn't believe it and will never believe it then you cannot force them to accept it. And that half of the country has voting rights. And when you try to force you get resistance...human nature. This is not a winnable battle. You can legislate abortion all day long and it's not going to make anyone stop having an abortion. They will just go elsewhere or a string of back alley butchers will pop up...which is exactly what happened the last time abortion was illegal in Texas. Doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong it's what happens.

LIFE begins BEFORE conception, if I recall correctly.

Its over when that life becomes distinct and valuable where the debate comes in. Any standard other than conception is pretty darn arbitrary, IMO.


If people are that wilfully ignorant we're pretty much SOL. You realize that, right?

The way I read this is...

We are SOL...

Because people are that ignorant.


That's a forgone conclusion but I personally prefer to choose my battles and this isn't one of them for me. The shredding of our Bill of Rights is more important to me at the moment because once those are gone we will be unable to speak out about any issue that is important to us. I stand by the Libertarian platform with regard to abortion even though I would prefer no one ever have an abortion. I don't believe it is or will ever be a winnable fight. I believe education and peer pressure are the only things that will stop it...not legislation. People tend to get pissed when you tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. And unless you are willing to pay for them to raise a child or find someone to adopt it, they will always take the easy way out. But you can keep spinning your wheels and keep giving the libs a reason to show up and vote.

People also do see it as a religious issue because the churches push pro life legislation. Many of the same churches that believe that Islam should be destroyed by any means necessary so people see it as hypocrisy to say one values life yet has no problem with taking life. (not saying all churches are like this but many see them that way.) Those same churches enjoy tax free status and by law are not supposed to have any influence on elections...that's not the way people see it. If you want to bring people into the fold these are things that have to be considered. If the Republicans as a party don't figure out a way to bring people in, they are doomed because they are already splintered between the neocons, the Tea Partiers, and the pro liberty faction. One thing the Dems do well is come together even if they have disagreements on platform. They are like a bunch of rabid dogs and these types of issues are like a juicy bone to them.

You know...

I don't think we should fight this battle at the Federal level. So I don't really disagree with you. In an ideal world I might support some kind of constitutional amendment, but even then, it would matter how it was worded. The thing with any amendment is, if you don't like it, you should be able to leave the Union peacefully, as a state, but that option was destroyed (At least for now) long ago.

The state level is another story. I believe Roe v Wade should be nullified just as much as I believe marijuana laws, gun control laws, or basically anything else from the Feds should be nullified.

Now, I'd vote for a pro-choice person who agreed with my other views pretty easily. The executive arm of the Federal Government can't do a whole lot about this anyway. This battle is really in the hands of the states and the people now.

I'd have a much harder time voting for anyone who supported Roe v Wade since that would mean they don't understand Federalism AND they are pro-choice, which is worse than just being pro-choice.


http://www.jewishjournal.com/judaismandscience/item/the_curious_consensus_of_jews_on_abortion


Do you think that Jews support abortion because they're ignorant or what? lol

In other words, 49% of Jews support outright murder and they know it?

Because that's the only way you can possibly support abortion in the third trimester. They know better, IMO...

Of course, too many evangelicals (Rockwell correctly calls them "warvangelicals" support the murder of the already born all the time, So I guess this isn't anything new.

[Carlybee]

No, the opponents will show up again. You do realize the main reason it didn't pass is because they took the vote after midnight once again appearing to bypass the rules. One can argue it was due to the noise in the gallery but ultimately it was due to people showing up. I only keep harping on this because that is why Obama won and why Clinton will win if people don't care enough to turn out. All the Republicans looked like were a bunch of white guys trying to shut Davis up. I am referring to perception. This was an unpopular bill.

[Carlybee]

America is the only country with a liberty movement too...

Your argument is basically, we shouldn't support laws against abortion because the only people who will be killed can't defend themselves.

Why not legalize the murder of the mentally disabled, then? Because that's the logical conclusion to this insane proposition.

Ugh...


You know what? I really don't care what they think.

Right is right and wrong is wrong, period. Your rights end where somebody else's rights begin.



LIFE begins BEFORE conception, if I recall correctly.

Its over when that life becomes distinct and valuable where the debate comes in. Any standard other than conception is pretty darn arbitrary, IMO.



The way I read this is...

We are SOL...

Because people are that ignorant.



You know...

I don't think we should fight this battle at the Federal level. So I don't really disagree with you. In an ideal world I might support some kind of constitutional amendment, but even then, it would matter how it was worded. The thing with any amendment is, if you don't like it, you should be able to leave the Union peacefully, as a state, but that option was destroyed (At least for now) long ago.

The state level is another story. I believe Roe v Wade should be nullified just as much as I believe marijuana laws, gun control laws, or basically anything else from the Feds should be nullified.

Now, I'd vote for a pro-choice person who agreed with my other views pretty easily. The executive arm of the Federal Government can't do a whole lot about this anyway. This battle is really in the hands of the states and the people now.

I'd have a much harder time voting for anyone who supported Roe v Wade since that would mean they don't understand Federalism AND they are pro-choice, which is worse than just being pro-choice.



In other words, 49% of Jews support outright murder and they know it?

Because that's the only way you can possibly support abortion in the third trimester. They know better, IMO...

Of course, too many evangelicals (Rockwell correctly calls them "warvangelicals" support the murder of the already born all the time, So I guess this isn't anything new.

If life begins before conception you best start banning masturbation. If you want to lose elections keep making abortion a defining issue.

[supermario21]

Can't they just close the Senate to the public?

[Christian Liberty]

Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.




If life begins before conception you best start banning masturbation. If you want to lose elections keep making abortion a defining issue.

The life that exists before conception will never BECOME sentient, so it isn't important or worthy of protection. That doesn't change the fact that, technically, scientifically, it is LIFE. Maybe I'm taking this too literally.

However, that was James Madison's point. Life, objectively, exists at conception. The real question is whether its worthy of protection or not.

I don't consider sperm to be a human being. I consider a fertilized egg to be a human being.

But technically, scientifically, both are "Life."

[Christian Liberty]

@Carlybee- Do you disagree with me that the tenth amendment would allow Texas to pass a law like this, or any anti-abortion law, if they wanted to?

If you agree with that, our differences don't really matter as far as Federal elections go.

[shane77m]

Just kill'em all. Bastard children, retarded children, children that are dependent upon medical devices or medication, children with birth defects. Maybe eventually after we do all of that cleansing we can have a superior race. While we are at it, we might as well kill the children of those of an inferior ethnicity. Survival of the fittest and all that jazz.

In the mean time we can put enough restrictions and red tape on adoption to make it nearly impossible for anyone to adopt one of these inferior children. We can't have those mothers of the inferior children thinking there is an alternative to having the child. After all, eugenics is the only way to go.

[shane77m]

double post

[Carlybee]

@Carlybee- Do you disagree with me that the tenth amendment would allow Texas to pass a law like this, or any anti-abortion law, if they wanted to?

If you agree with that, our differences don't really matter as far as Federal elections go.

I agree with the 10th amendment. I don't agree with them trying to subvert the process and they didn't do themselves any favors with the way they handled it. My point here is about choosing battles and ultimately this is going to hurt Texas Republicans because they don't show up. Democrats do. If we fail to see the lesson here then its not for lack of trying to point it out.

[JCDenton0451]

America is the only country with a liberty movement too...

Your argument is basically, we shouldn't support laws against abortion because the only people who will be killed can't defend themselves.

Why not legalize the murder of the mentally disabled, then? Because that's the logical conclusion to this insane proposition.

Ugh...

You know what? I really don't care what they think.

Right is right and wrong is wrong, period. Your rights end where somebody else's rights begin.


LOL no, my argument is that each of us as an individual has no personal interest in having abortion banned, since none of us could potentially become a victim of abortion. "Your rights end where somebody else's rights begin." - this rule clearly does NOT apply to abortion. A fetus is a non-entity and has no rights of its own.

[James Madison]

yes when u finish the act there is a 3 person in the room.. pff pathetic

The fuck did I just read? :confused:


Yes, but who says that its existence should be protected by the law? Certainly not the US Constitution.

Your abortion restrictions would make life difficult for millions of people for no good reason, other than your personal (Christian) beliefs and convictions.

Try to weasel your way out of answering the question all you want, a fertilized egg is just as 'alive' as the 20-year-old mother getting the abortion. You are aggressing against an innocent third party, which violates your NAP.

I have no qualms about making life difficult for millions of women seeking abortions. Just as I have no qualms making life difficult for those who rob unarmed victims.


The reason human society invented laws (and corresponding moral norms) against homicide is to protect the members of society. Each of us supports the punishment for murder because it is in our best interest to have this kind of action prohibited by the law and social norm. Abortion is different obviously. How are you threatened by other people having abortions?

Among the first-world countries America is the only one that still debates abortion, all because we have such a huge population of religious fanatics.

Stop bringing religion into the debate. I have not shared my religious convictions in this thread, and you have no way of assuming my motivation is religious. You, sir, are the religious one. How is a fetus 'less alive' than the woman getting the abortion? Unless you are willing to endorse murder, all you can do is parrot Medieval pseudo-scientific nonsense.

[EBounding]

Can't you be charged with murder/manslaughter if you kill a fetus in a car crash or something?

[CT4Liberty]

Can't you be charged with murder/manslaughter if you kill a fetus in a car crash or something?

http://stcharles.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/st-charles-man-charged-with-involuntary-manslaughter-66e66c5b17


A 52-year-old St. Charles man was charged with first degree involuntary manslaughter following a March 16 crash on West Clay Street that killed an unborn child.

Paul Joseph Murphy, 52, could face a maximum of 36 years in prison. In addition to first degree involuntary manslaughter, which is punishable upon conviction of up to 15 years in the Department of Corrections, Murphy was charged with three counts of Assault Second Degree—operating a vehicle while intoxicated resulting in physical injury, with each count punishable upon conviction of up to 7 years in the Department of Corrections.

[jmdrake]

A woman arguing for the mother's right to murder her child. Wow, what a hero. :rolleyes:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to James Madison again.

[jmdrake]

Texas is not going to turn blue over this. The bill has greater than 60% support according to a poll taken 1 or 2 days ago. This is the Austin communist party mobilizing and that's it.

This. Besides, if "making sure state X doesn't turn blue" becomes more important than doing the right thing, then to hell with politics altogether! If someone wants to "choose" an abortion, they should make that choice before 5 months into the pregnancy. And if an abortion clinic can't be regulated like a typical outpatient surgery center then it shouldn't be allowed to operate.

[jmdrake]

Whether we think it's right or not, at least nationally 50% of the people think it is a woman's right to decide. It would really suck to lose Congress the next time around over this issue. But I know that's beating my head against the wall to bring that up. It's these wedge issues...and yes it is a wedge issue...that people tend to hone in on that will be the undoing. It's kind of hard to tell Dems to stop telling everyone how to conduct their lives, when we are also telling everyone how to conduct their lives by legislating morality. At the end of the day that's what it is. You are never going to convince half the people that life begins at conception. Just isn't going to happen and when you try to force it on people the natural reaction is to resist.

Legislating morality would be criminalizing extra-marital sex. Saying that at some point a human life can't be killed just on the whim of the mother is not "legislating morality."

[angelatc]

According to her wikipedia page, she had a bastard child as a teen; I wonder if her kid is a big fan?

I saw that last night and wondered the same thing.

The right should make sure the left doesn't demagogue this. (They won't, but they should.) Even when most people say they believe in a right to choose, hardly anybody supports abortion up until the 9th month, and you have to be insane to support not regulating the clinics for health and safety reasons.

But saying that we shouldn't vote pro-life because we might lose elections....there's no point in winning them if we can't vote for our principles after we get there.

[jmdrake]

I agree with the 10th amendment. I don't agree with them trying to subvert the process and they didn't do themselves any favors with the way they handled it. My point here is about choosing battles and ultimately this is going to hurt Texas Republicans because they don't show up. Democrats do. If we fail to see the lesson here then its not for lack of trying to point it out.

So Texas republicans should just go along with the democrats even on issues like this where a majority of the country NATIONALLY agrees with them just because a lot of democrats show up to the polls? Serious? :confused: So...when should Texas Republicans buck democrats?

And you brought up Hispanics. Most Hispanics are Catholic and are anti-abortion.

[LibertyEagle]

You can't FORCE people to believe something they don't believe, so yes it is up for debate. And not everyone in this country is a Christian either or believes in the existence of God or that the bible is real. Ignoring the fact just makes you look insular. You cannot force people to believe something just because you do. It's that type of thinking that won the election for Obama. Because those people who you think shouldn't have a voice, showed up.

You are missing the point.

Abortion is murder. It doesn't really matter if some people think they should be able to murder others. It's still murder.

[Carlybee]

So Texas republicans should just go along with the democrats even on issues like this where a majority of the country NATIONALLY agrees with them just because a lot of democrats show up to the polls? Serious? :confused: So...when should Texas Republicans buck democrats?

And you brought up Hispanics. Most Hispanics are Catholic and are anti-abortion.

I'm just stating some hard facts. Texas is changing whether people want to admit it or not and hispanics are not voting for conservatives at least not in numbers that matter. And not all Catholics are devout. Hispanic gang members are Catholic...wonder if they say a hail Mary before cutting someone? So thats a broad assumption. No I am not saying they need to agree with Dems, I am saying these social issues bring the Dems out in force and when consideration is given to elections they need to think about who is going to show up in force to vote and what hot button issues make that happen. There were few if any pro abortion bill supporters in that gallery last night..there were hundreds against it.

[Carlybee]

You are missing the point.

Abortion is murder. It doesn't really matter if some people think they should be able to murder others. It's still murder.

Doesnt matter. Its legal. There is no law making an embryo a human. And many people dont believe a fetus is living regardless of whether you or I think so. The libs just ask why are they trying to protect a fetus when they have no problem sending soldiers to die. Y'all better get inside your opponents heads if you want to win elections because the hardline stance on abortion and gay marriage for that matter is not going to win a general election.

[James Madison]

I'm just stating some hard facts. Texas is changing whether people want to admit it or not and hispanics are not voting for conservatives at least not in numbers that matter. And not all Catholics are devout. Hispanic gang members are Catholic...wonder if they say a hail Mary before cutting someone? So thats a broad assumption. No I am not saying they need to agree with Dems, I am saying these social issues bring the Dems out in force and when consideration is given to elections they need to think about who is going to show up in force to vote and what hot button issues make that happen. There were few if any pro abortion bill supporters in that gallery last night..there were hundreds against it.

The same people who come out for social issues will come out when there's talk of ending entitlements, reducing the safety net, and legalizing victimless crimes. If you're gonna play that game, you've already lost. Might as well just give up now and save yourself the trouble.

[Carlybee]

The same people who come out for social issues will come out when there's talk of ending entitlements, reducing the safety net, and legalizing victimless crimes. If you're gonna play that game, you've already lost. Might as well just give up now and save yourself the trouble.

Youre missing the point that its moot if they are outnumbered. Oh well this is why Im not a Republican or a Dem. You can lead a horse.....et al.

[I<3Liberty]

People will endlessly debate this issue and I will say until I'm blue in the face... both sides need to stop arguing and come together. Both have legitatmite concerns and both have weaknesses. Why the heck isn't either side talking about things like 100% effective contraceptives? They would give women a choice besides abortion. I'm Christian - United Methodist and I get so annoyed when some of the uber religious folks put up a fuss about this and do nothing to solve the issue itself or just fight contraceptives and contraceptive education. I also dislike when the pro-abortion people subdue it. With all moral arguments regarding the unborn -- it is a risky surgical procedure and not an ideal way to go.

[Christian Liberty]

Doesnt matter. Its legal. There is no law making an embryo a human. And many people dont believe a fetus is living regardless of whether you or I think so. The libs just ask why are they trying to protect a fetus when they have no problem sending soldiers to die. Y'all better get inside your opponents heads if you want to win elections because the hardline stance on abortion and gay marriage for that matter is not going to win a general election.

If you think banning abortion after 20 weeks is a "Hardline" stance I don't really know what to say.

Personally, my stance is pretty hardline, although also tenth amendment oriented.

But my stance wasn't up for debate here.


I agree with the 10th amendment. I don't agree with them trying to subvert the process and they didn't do themselves any favors with the way they handled it. My point here is about choosing battles and ultimately this is going to hurt Texas Republicans because they don't show up. Democrats do. If we fail to see the lesson here then its not for lack of trying to point it out.

I don't think innocent life should be a political bargaining chip.

LOL no, my argument is that each of us as an individual has no personal interest in having abortion banned, since none of us could potentially become a victim of abortion. "Your rights end where somebody else's rights begin." - this rule clearly does NOT apply to abortion. A fetus is a non-entity and has no rights of its own.

If only the unborn could vote.

I'll never become a victim of infanticide, should I now be cool with making that legal?

This viewpoint of yours is insanely selfish...


This. Besides, if "making sure state X doesn't turn blue" becomes more important than doing the right thing, then to hell with politics altogether! If someone wants to "choose" an abortion, they should make that choice before 5 months into the pregnancy. And if an abortion clinic can't be regulated like a typical outpatient surgery center then it shouldn't be allowed to operate.

Why is abortion allowed at all? (Unless to save the mother's life.)

[supermario21]

There will be another special session starting July 1 to finish all the incomplete legislation, including this abortion bill. Would love for pro-life activists to mobilize this time.

[Christian Liberty]

You are missing the point.

Abortion is murder. It doesn't really matter if some people think they should be able to murder others. It's still murder.

Exactly!

They can think whatever they want. I don't want to force people to believe life begins at conception. I want to force people not to commit murder, and that I have no qualms about.

It was difficult to get a majority of people to see black people as human during the early part of our history. And there was no attempt, nor should there have been, to force people to THINK that black people are human. There was, however, an attempt to make people respect their rights, and rightfully so.

[Antischism]

Why is anyone arguing about when 'life' begins? The real issue is when SENTIENCE/SELF-AWARENESS begins. Where's the scientific proof that it begins at conception? Right, there is none. A fertilized egg is about as sentient as my ejaculate before a certain point. Banning abortion and/or closing down abortion clinics is an inherently religious idea because there's absolutely no science stating that sentience and self-awareness begins at conception. Don't push your morality on other people who aren't religious.

[WM_in_MO]

Why is anyone arguing about when 'life' begins? The real issue is when SENTIENCE/SELF-AWARENESS begins. Where's the scientific proof that it begins at conception? Right, there is none. A fertilized egg is about as sentient as my ejaculate before a certain point. Banning abortion and/or closing down abortion clinics is an inherently religious idea because there's absolutely no science stating that sentience and self-awareness begins at conception. Don't push your morality on other people who aren't religious.

So since it hasn't happened yet, then it's ok to stop the natural process that would result in the self-awareness?

So just do it early enough and it's ok.

[Antischism]

So since it hasn't happened yet, then it's ok to stop the natural process that would result in the self-awareness?

So just do it early enough and it's ok.

If it's not sentient or self-aware, yes that's fine. It has the potential (just like ejaculate at a sperm bank) but that's about it. I have no problem with abortion at that point.

[jmdrake]

The same people who come out for social issues will come out when there's talk of ending entitlements, reducing the safety net, and legalizing victimless crimes. If you're gonna play that game, you've already lost. Might as well just give up now and save yourself the trouble.

^Yep

[jmdrake]

Youre missing the point that its moot if they are outnumbered. Oh well this is why Im not a Republican or a Dem. You can lead a horse.....et al.

No. You're missing the point. If Dems can win in Texas by "just coming out in force" they would have already won in Texas. You're pro choice. We get it.

[Mr.NoSmile]

This is definitely inspiring many to want to flip Texas from red to blue. I know, it's as out there as Rand Paul saying Republicans can flip California, but hey, when the people, especially women, are vocal about something, they will let you know. And they will remember.

http://www.ukprogressive.co.uk/turning-texas-blue/article22785.html


Here I suggest Texas Democrats put the Lone Star State at the forefront of key races in 2014 by supporting and potentially drafting State Sen. Wendy Davis (D) to run for governor of Texas and end the arrogant, far-right and crony capitalist era of Texas GOP rule.

[jmdrake]

Why is anyone arguing about when 'life' begins? The real issue is when SENTIENCE/SELF-AWARENESS begins. Where's the scientific proof that it begins at conception? Right, there is none. A fertilized egg is about as sentient as my ejaculate before a certain point. Banning abortion and/or closing down abortion clinics is an inherently religious idea because there's absolutely no science stating that sentience and self-awareness begins at conception. Don't push your morality on other people who aren't religious.

This thread isn't about "fertilized eggs". It's about a baby that's developed for 5 months. At that point the fetus has a functioning and developing brain, can hear pain, ect. By 25 weeks the baby can respond to its mother's voice. But if you're going for "self awareness", scientists aren't even sure newborns have reached that level.

(See: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise)

I guess Gosnell shouldn't have been convicted for killing babies that survived the abortion sense we aren't sure they were self aware. :rolleyes: SMH!

[CPUd]

Zinger:


Cody Beckner ‏@cbeckner 13h

"In Texas, we value all life" Gov. Perry TX. Said on the eve of the state's 500th execution. #StandWithWendy

[Antischism]

This thread isn't about "fertilized eggs". It's about a baby that's developed for 5 months. At that point the fetus has a functioning and developing brain, can hear pain, ect. By 25 weeks the baby can respond to its mother's voice. But if you're going for "self awareness", scientists aren't even sure newborns have reached that level.

(See: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=when-does-consciousness-arise)

I guess Gosnell shouldn't have been convicted for killing babies that survived the abortion sense we aren't sure they were self aware. :rolleyes: SMH!

Give in a little, and they'll eventually ban ALL abortions. I'm as stringent on gun rights as I am a woman's right to safe abortions. This would cripple abortion clinics in Texas and would lead to further restrictions in the future. It's a stepping stone. That's the real issue here.

[jmdrake]

Give in a little, and they'll eventually ban ALL abortions. I'm as stringent on gun rights as I am a woman's right to safe abortions. This would cripple abortion clinics in Texas and would lead to further restrictions in the future. It's a stepping stone. That's the real issue here.

Give in a little and soon women will be able to murder their toddlers. It's a stepping stone. That's the real issue here. :rolleyes:

[angelatc]

Why is anyone arguing about when 'life' begins? The real issue is when SENTIENCE/SELF-AWARENESS begins. Where's the scientific proof that it begins at conception? Right, there is none. A fertilized egg is about as sentient as my ejaculate before a certain point. Banning abortion and/or closing down abortion clinics is an inherently religious idea because there's absolutely no science stating that sentience and self-awareness begins at conception. Don't push your morality on other people who aren't religious.

So the self-anointed pro-science crowd can't determine when life actually begins. Interesting.

[Antischism]

Give in a little and soon women will be able to murder their toddlers. It's a stepping stone. That's the real issue here. :rolleyes:

Except there are already laws against murder.

[jmdrake]

Except there are already laws against murder.

There used to be laws against abortion as well.

Edit: And why do you consider killing a newborn murder? I mean by your own "It has to be self-aware before you can't kill it" test, a newborn human has less of a right to life than an adult dolphin or killer whale.

[jmdrake]

So the self-anointed pro-science crowd can't determine when life actually begins. Interesting.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.

[Christian Liberty]

Zinger:

The difference is that abortion is intended to kill the innocent, the death penalty is designed to kill murderers.

You can lose your right to life

I'm not necessarily such a fan of capital punishment as a pragmatic matter due to the brokenness of the system. But it just isn't the same thing.


Give in a little, and they'll eventually ban ALL abortions. I'm as stringent on gun rights as I am a woman's right to safe abortions. This would cripple abortion clinics in Texas and would lead to further restrictions in the future. It's a stepping stone. That's the real issue here.

The difference is that owning a gun violates nobody's rights.

Abortion, certainly late term abortion, does.

[angelatc]

There will be another special session starting July 1 to finish all the incomplete legislation, including this abortion bill. Would love for pro-life activists to mobilize this time.

The thing is that this bill does more to give women safe, clean procedures than the existing law did. The Dems are demagogue it with fear-mongering about all abortion clinics shutting down because they have to meet the sanitary standards of a remote surgery center.

This is crazy talk coming from the same people who demanded abortion be legal in the first place, because they wanted it clean and safe.

After the Gosnell case, they changed their sanitation requirements in Pennsylvania, and a lot of clinics went out of business because they couldn't adhere to the cleanliness requirements.

What kind of outcry did you hear? None, because the Dems have a stated goal to turn Texas blue and the media is complicit. Unless the GOP starts running their own game of deception, they're going to lose Texas.

[rpfocus]

If it's not sentient or self-aware, yes that's fine. It has the potential (just like ejaculate at a sperm bank) but that's about it. I have no problem with abortion at that point.

Agreed. Destroying a zygote is not murder. Repubs will go for broke on this issue... and lose.

[angelatc]

Agreed. Destroying a zygote is not murder. Repubs will go for broke on this issue... and lose.


And away we go. This isn't about killing zygote. It's about killing babies that are 5 months along.

[Antischism]

There used to be laws against abortion as well.

Thankfully science and research is ever-evolving, otherwise heliocentrism would still be debated and gravity would simply be God using His power to lift things up Himself.

[Antischism]

The difference is that abortion is intended to kill the innocent, the death penalty is designed to kill murderers.

You can lose your right to life

I'm not necessarily such a fan of capital punishment as a pragmatic matter due to the brokenness of the system. But it just isn't the same thing.



The difference is that owning a gun violates nobody's rights.

Abortion, certainly late term abortion, does.

First point: I agree that it isn't hypocritical to believe in the death penalty and oppose abortion. I'm not sure why people bring that up. I personally oppose the death penalty and am pro-choice before it's late-term, which isn't hypocritical either.

Second point: Agree to disagree, since I only start having an issue with late-term abortions. That, and I believe a woman's right to choose what she wants to do with her body is being violated.

[jmdrake]

Thankfully science and research is ever-evolving, otherwise heliocentrism would still be debated and gravity would simply be God using His power to lift things up Himself.

And eventually "science and research" may "ever-evolve" to the point where future generations think killing a newborn is a-okay. :rolleyes:

Edit: And for the record it's evolving science that is undermining your position on abortion. When the congress passed the partial birth abortion ban, it relied on the best current science which is that late term abortion is never medically necessary. Also 3D ultrasounds are giving people much better evidence that at some point prior to birth we really are talking about a living individual human being.

[Christian Liberty]

@Antischism- You're correct on your first point. There's nothing inherently inconsistent about that stance.

A better analogy would be between abortion and war, since war at least kills innocent people as such. Although still not a perfect comparison, and there are ways around that as well.

As for all this talk about "Republicans" you guys do remember Ron Paul's stance on this right? By all means, disagree, but honestly, some of you are all but calling Ron Paul stupid for holding the stance he does on this issue.

[amy31416]

So the self-anointed pro-science crowd can't determine when life actually begins. Interesting.

Nope. Can't even entirely distinguish what is or isn't alive.

I've always thought that a never used (as far as I know) argument for the pro-life position is that once the sperm and egg meet, it's a genetically unique potential human that never has and never will be created again.

Then again, in regards to laws, I also think there should be no laws on it beyond common medical standards, not even on the state level. This isn't an issue that gov't will ever be able to resolve or bring an end to it's practice, even if they were so motivated. It's been going on for thousands of years.

[Christian Liberty]

I realize that you won't eradicate abortion by banning it. Murder still happens. That said, right is right and wrong is wrong. A law against murder is justified, regardless of how "Ineffective" it may be. Violating the rights of innocents, through such things including but not limited to warrantless wiretaps, drug laws, surveillance drones, exc. is wrong, no matter how many lives it saves.

I apply the same rules to abortion. If you happen to catch someone, which may not happen all that often, you punish for murder. Otherwise, someone gets away with it, and it happens in any free country, but it should still be legally condemned and punished when possible.

Now, I'd never really complain that we need more tax dollars to do much of anything, but I can say this.. in a country where abortion is treated as murderer, murderers are outlawed, period. Killing an abortion doctor while he is "On duty" would be justifiable homicide. People like Scott Roeder, who committed their "Crimes" while abortion was still illegal and so the innocent were not protected, would be pardoned.

It wouldn't take much to drive abortion underground, and make it dangerous enough (Yes, I view this as a good thing) to dissuade all but the most determined from doing it.

[supermario21]

Even Gary Johnson would have likely supported this bill. I think he was only in favor of first trimester abortions. The science talk from Dems is going to end up biting them in the ass on this because the medical science/technology reveals just how the fetus evolves throughout a pregnancy. When Roe v Wade was passed there were no sonograms showing a 20 week old fetus virtually looking like a small baby that was pretty well developed. And with regard to murder laws, I had a bioethics class where the professor argued that true personhood isn't achieved until age 7. So watch with the pro-murder crowd, they will continue advocating for late-term and post-birth abortions.

[Antischism]

Well, this topic definitely won't be going anywhere outside of the usual bickering and same points. I think everyone here already has their mind made up on the issue and won't be changing their stance. Thankfully, we have way more important issues to fight for that won't divide us like race, abortion and gay marriage tends to do.

[amy31416]

I realize that you won't eradicate abortion by banning it. Murder still happens. That said, right is right and wrong is wrong. A law against murder is justified, regardless of how "Ineffective" it may be. Violating the rights of innocents, through such things including but not limited to warrantless wiretaps, drug laws, surveillance drones, exc. is wrong, no matter how many lives it saves.

I apply the same rules to abortion. If you happen to catch someone, which may not happen all that often, you punish for murder. Otherwise, someone gets away with it, and it happens in any free country, but it should still be legally condemned and punished when possible.

Now, I'd never really complain that we need more tax dollars to do much of anything, but I can say this.. in a country where abortion is treated as murderer, murderers are outlawed, period. Killing an abortion doctor while he is "On duty" would be justifiable homicide. People like Scott Roeder, who committed their "Crimes" while abortion was still illegal and so the innocent were not protected, would be pardoned.

It wouldn't take much to drive abortion underground, and make it dangerous enough (Yes, I view this as a good thing) to dissuade all but the most determined from doing it.

I don't take much issue with your stance, aside from how people voted into power would use resources to enforce it, and that the vast majority of young girls and boys are completely ignorant about the gravity of it. That's where things can get ugly.

[Carlybee]

Well you get a chance to see it all again. Gov Perry has called for a special session to fight the filibuster.

[JCDenton0451]

There used to be laws against abortion as well.

...and the laws against contraception. Such laws were based on nothing more than Christian prejudice and superstition. Abolishing them was a victory for personal freedom and common sense. Now, Texan Republicans want to bring this crap back into the law again. Their behavior is nauseating. They deserve everything that's coming their way.

[jmdrake]

...and the laws against contraception. Such laws were based on nothing more than Christian prejudice and superstition. Abolishing them was a victory for personal freedom and common sense. Now, Texan Republicans want to bring this crap back into the law again. Their behavior is nauseating. They deserve everything that's coming their way.

Laws against late term abortion are based on human decency, common sense and science. As I stated earlier...

And for the record it's evolving science that is undermining your position on abortion. When the congress passed the partial birth abortion ban, it relied on the best current science which is that late term abortion is never medically necessary. Also 3D ultrasounds are giving people much better evidence that at some point prior to birth we really are talking about a living individual human being.

[I<3Liberty]

OMG, guys. This is about 20+ week fetuses which have survived outside the womb (with assistance from the NICU.) I agree that the zygote thing is a bit ridiculous, but that's not what we are talking about here.

As I said before -- people need to come together and work as a team instead of segregating themselves as for or against abortion. Find some alternatives like 100% effective contraceptives. Be proactive instead of waiting until pregnancy has resulted. Even if you do not care about the moral side if the debate, you can't deny the obvious economic benefit to being proactive. With all arguments about the unborn aside, abortion is a costly, painful, and risky surgical procedure. Even when done under sterile conditions, women have died from it.

I agreed with JCDenton that the anti contraceptive laws were absurd, but they were driven more by the cultural backlash against contraceptives that's often associated with some uber religious people, but definitely is not biblically based. I'm Christian, yet I care about the abortion issue as much as I do about a women's right to chose utilizing contraceptives rather than abortion, as well as getting better contraceptives out there (like Vasalgel.) Effective contraceptives are much better resources for preventing abortion than legislation.

[JCDenton0451]

Laws against late term abortion are based on human decency, common sense and science. As I stated earlier...

And for the record it's evolving science that is undermining your position on abortion. When the congress passed the partial birth abortion ban, it relied on the best current science which is that late term abortion is never medically necessary. Also 3D ultrasounds are giving people much better evidence that at some point prior to birth we really are talking about a living individual human being.

This isn't about late-term abortion. This bill is designed to shut down 90% of abortion clinics in Texas! This is pure medieval bigotry and barbarism that somehow found its way into the 21st century lawmaking.

[Peace&Freedom]

This isn't about late-term abortion. This bill is designed to shut down 90% of abortion clinics in Texas! This is pure medieval bigotry and barbarism that somehow found its way into the 21st century lawmaking.

Yes, legalized child killing is indeed pure medieval bigotry and barbarism that somehow found its way into the 21st century lawmaking.

[Mr.NoSmile]

Why is Perry going through the trouble of calling a special session? I mean, not like they can't just do another filibuster. And you can be damn well sure that the supporters outside the doors will be even more vocal than they were this time, even when it comes to running down the clock.

[angelatc]

This isn't about late-term abortion. This bill is designed to shut down 90% of abortion clinics in Texas! This is pure medieval bigotry and barbarism that somehow found its way into the 21st century lawmaking.


If there is a demand, then the clinics will return - safer and cleaner than before. Trust the market!

I just can't get over the Democrats lobbying for less sterile facilities.

[angelatc]

Why is Perry going through the trouble of calling a special session? I mean, not like they can't just do another filibuster. And you can be damn well sure that the supporters outside the doors will be even more vocal than they were this time, even when it comes to running down the clock.

I think that in the next session, they won't wait until the last minute to introduce the bill, maybe?

I think it is dumb to end a session according to a clock, anyway.

[supermario21]

David Dewhurst was borderline incompetent handling the Senate floor, thank goodness he lost to Cruz.

[Mr.NoSmile]

I think that in the next session, they won't wait until the last minute to introduce the bill, maybe?

I think it is dumb to end a session according to a clock, anyway.

Is it possible that they can even do that without a filibuster round two? Because I honestly can't imagine Democrats letting this bill get through without another fight. A lot of folks are fired up over this.

[Christian Liberty]

I don't take much issue with your stance, aside from how people voted into power would use resources to enforce it,

Of course... you can't really win. Yet another reason I support doing it at the state level. The Feds can burn you know where. I know that doesn't totally solve the issues but it is better.

Granted, I can assure you, any anti-abortion law that included something about surveilance or anything else that's unrelated I would still oppose. Ends don't justify means.


and that the vast majority of young girls and boys are completely ignorant about the gravity of it. That's where things can get ugly.

True, but I don't really see ignorance as an excuse for murder...

[american.swan]

Texas Senate has 32 members controlled by the GOP with the Lt. Gov Republican Dewhurst. The Lt. Gov is a statewide elected office. The Senate rules are strict and there's no way the DNC can hold a 30 day filibuster. Each special session is 30 days long. Texas has strict "time" requirements. For example, the Texas House and Senate meet for only 140 days every two years. During the regular 140 day session only the budget really matters. Everything else is icing on the ruling parties cake. Everything else is a special session where not a lot can be done.

The Speaker of the Texas House, Lt. Governor, and the Governor Rick Perry run the state. It has been argued in the past that the Lt. Governor is actually more powerful than the other two, but it's up for interpretation.