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View Full Version : On NSA Whistleblower Edward Snowden, Did We Really Learn Anything New?




FrankRep
06-24-2013, 07:53 PM
I'm reviewing the previous NSA Whistleblowers in the past like William Binney and Thomas Drake, but I don't really see any new information from Edward Snowden.

How did Edward Snowden become super popular, yet other NSA Whistleblowers are practically forgotten? Since this information has been fully exposed since around 2009, why is the NSA making a big deal of it? Very odd.


NSA Analyst: All Americans Were Spied On (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/computers/item/7134-nsa-analyst-all-americans-were-spied-on)

23 January 2009 | According to former NSA analyst Russell Tice, the secretive agency conducted warrantless surveillance on Americans on behalf of the Bush administration, breaching constitutional protections of privacy.

NSA Supercenters to Store Americans' Private Data Permanently (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/7674-nsa-supercenters-to-store-americans-private-data-permanently)

28 October 2009 | The National Security Agency (NSA) is building huge new storage facilities to store the unconstitutionally gained data on the American people's telephone calls and Internet traffic permanently, including new buildings in suburban Salt Lake City, Utah and San Antonio, Texas.

The "Secret" Patriot Act: Far More Dangerous Than the Public One (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/7988-the-secret-patriot-act-far-more-dangerous-than-the-public-one)

14 June 2011 | Former NSA crypto-mathematician William Binney on his eavesdropping technology invention: "I should apologize to the American people. It’s violated everyone’s rights. It can be used to eavesdrop on the whole world." Binney eventually decided to resign from the NSA because “I couldn’t be an accessory to subverting the Constitution.”

NSA's Spy Program "Stellar Wind" Exposed (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/computers/item/7254-nsa%E2%80%99s-spy-program-stellar-wind-exposed)

19 March 2012 | Thanks to Wired magazine, the enormous scope of the NSA's deliberate spying on Americans, from e-mails to receipts in their pockets, has now been exposed.

NSA Has Your E-Mails and More, Whistleblower Says (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/11081-nsa-has-your-e-mails-and-more-whistleblower-says)

23 April 2012 | The NSA -- despite U.S. law and the Constitution -- has collected most of the American people's e-mails, whistleblower William Binney said in a TV interview.

Whistleblower Protests Illegal NSA Data-Mining (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/12874-whistleblower-protests-illegal-nsa-data-mining)

17 September 2012 | A former employee of the NSA has unveiled information revealing that the U.S. government has been spying on its citizens.

NSA Whistleblower: Every American Is Under Surveillance (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/13854-nsa-whistleblower-every-american-is-under-surveillance)

06 December 2012 | NSA whistleblower William Binney says the FBI's probe into General David Petraeus indicates that "every American is under surveillance."


===

http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9780385521321_p0_v1_s260x420.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307279391/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0307279391&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20)

The Shadow Factory: The NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307279391/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0307279391&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20)
James Bamford, 2009


James Bamford has been the preeminent expert on the National Security Agency since his reporting revealed the agency’s existence in the 1980s. Now Bamford describes the transformation of the NSA since 9/11, as the agency increasingly turns its high-tech ears on the American public.

The Shadow Factory reconstructs how the NSA missed a chance to thwart the 9/11 hijackers and details how this mistake has led to a heightening of domestic surveillance. In disturbing detail, Bamford describes exactly how every American’s data is being mined and what is being done with it. Any reader who thinks America’s liberties are being protected by Congress will be shocked and appalled at what is revealed here.

Reason
06-24-2013, 08:05 PM
His choice of Hong Kong was strategic in terms of publicity.

It was very smart.

It worked.

When breaking a story like this you have to reach a critical mass and you have to make people feel like it connects to their personal lives.

Verizon is the largest cell phone provider and therefore the most likely to cause the most people to "care".

It was not a coincidence that the first information out was specific to Verizon even though Verizon isn't the issue.

Natural Citizen
06-24-2013, 08:25 PM
I'm reviewing the previous NSA Whistleblowers in the past like William Binney and Thomas Drake, but I don't really see any new information from Edward Snowden.

I'm not going to read those links just because my mind has been made up on it for some time. But I agree with the fact that we didn't get anything new from these revelations.

economics102
06-24-2013, 08:46 PM
Snowden forced the government to publicly acknowledge many of these programs. He washed away their smokescreen and plausible deniability. Because of him, the entire country -- not just us civil libertarians -- knows the government is spying on everyone. Previously, if you claimed the government was building a massive database of all communications, people rolled their eyes. Now, they believe it.

So even if we didn't learn anything new, it would seem Snowden has at least delivered a pretty nasty right hook to the surveillance state, and maybe given us all the opportunity to make some inroads against it.

RM918
06-24-2013, 08:56 PM
If he didn't reveal anything new, how can he be hunted down for revealing secrets? This stuff was a bunch of things everybody SUSPECTED the government was doing, but did not really know.

Natural Citizen
06-24-2013, 09:00 PM
So even if we didn't learn anything new, it would seem Snowden has at least delivered a pretty nasty right hook to the surveillance state, and maybe given us all the opportunity to make some inroads against it.

Doubtful. I don't think anything will change here in the states. The rest of the world though...now that's a different story. And a much different discussion than the one that's so popular now. Seems like the media has completely run interference so that the politicians don't have to discuss the actual skullduggery against the people and the new narrative is to hunt down the "enemy combatant".

The only way to deal with it is to repeal the "Patriot" Act. And I don't see any representative tripping over his or her feet to discuss that. If mainstream media stuck to that then maybe the people would get the idea. But the media is scrambling to change the terms of controversy and the representatives seem to be conforming to the narrative regarding Snowdens world travels and whatnot.

Peace Piper
06-24-2013, 09:03 PM
I'm reviewing the previous NSA Whistleblowers in the past like William Binney and Thomas Drake, but I don't really see any new information from Edward Snowden.


The new:


The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.

The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/r/story/70/00/016441/136942466282447-620x378.png?hash=BGRmLJV2AT&upscale=1

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19. MORE
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order



It was just assumed before. This was a top secret order that was sealed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order

Anti Federalist
06-24-2013, 09:04 PM
If he didn't reveal anything new, how can he be hunted down for revealing secrets? This stuff was a bunch of things everybody SUSPECTED the government was doing, but did not really know.

That.

When cranks, like us, tried to warn people about it, we were called...wait for it..."paranoid conspiracy theorists".

Snowden just confirmed what our merry little band of refuseniks has known all along.

FrankRep
06-24-2013, 09:17 PM
The new:

The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.


The information is not new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_Surveillance_Program#Call_database

On May 10, 2006, USA Today reported that the NSA has had a separate, previously undisclosed program in place since 9/11 to build a database of information about calls placed within the United States, including both phone numbers and the date and duration of the calls. According to the article, phone companies AT&T, Verizon, and Bell South disclosed the records to the NSA, while Qwest did not.

DGambler
06-24-2013, 09:19 PM
That.

When cranks, like us, tried to warn people about it, we were called...wait for it..."paranoid conspiracy theorists".

Snowden just confirmed what our merry little band of refuseniks has known all along.

I'm refusing to let up on the non-mainstream narrative... You know, the one where Snowden is a hero. Every fucking article I can find that contradicts the bullshit that is being spewed by the MSM is getting forwarded to everyone I know.

This is an opportunity, we need to use it now, the window of time is quite small.

Anti Federalist
06-24-2013, 10:12 PM
I'm refusing to let up on the non-mainstream narrative... You know, the one where Snowden is a hero. Every fucking article I can find that contradicts the bullshit that is being spewed by the MSM is getting forwarded to everyone I know.

This is an opportunity, we need to use it now, the window of time is quite small.

Me too.

Snowden IS a hero.

Sadly, no time for "I told you so".

DGambler
06-24-2013, 10:33 PM
Me too.

Snowden IS a hero.

Sadly, no time for "I told you so".

That comes later... Now, we get to work on our powers of ESP and predict what comes out of the government's mouth next... That will get them to sit up and take notice.

I've even started turning my Fox News loving inlaws, they can even see through the fallacy of the narrative right now.

As an aside, I just realized tonight that no one in the media has sought out nd spoken to the girlfriend... I think that's pretty telling that they don't want any sympathy drummed up for him and the MSM has been warned off of her.

Aratus
06-24-2013, 11:20 PM
there are papers by alan turing that are still top secret or higher inside our NSA that are off limits to our general public...

Mani
06-25-2013, 12:27 AM
It worked because you can't get a more: ALL american looking young white guy, then Snowden (builds credibility...he doesn't look like a terrorist, looks like your neighbor or a guy in your company's IT department).

It worked because it was shocking he did it in Hong Kong...Like the guy had a plan, to GTF out of dodge. It made you think. Woah, this guys running for his life, he's holed up in a secret Hotel in Hong Kong? This is real life spy shit.

All of America heard about it, the WHOLE WORLD heard about it, not just some conspiracy nut news site or some "ALTERNATIVE media" it was a major news outlet.

The guy had fucking power point slides. WTF how juicy is that? Secret government Power Point slides? Are you fucking serious?


So sure, we all KNEW this was going on. But this Bad ass Mo' Fo' didn't just say, "Hey they are spying on you....." this guy ditched his HOT Pole Dancing GF in HI, gave up a good job, and was hiding out in HK and said, "Hey guys, Check out this fucking Power Point, It's Big Brother, it's called, Prism, shit just got real folks."

And a day later the government is calling him a traitor, complaining he just helped notify terrorists of their secret surveillance (basically admitting the shit is true), and calling for his head.


Of course that's way fucking more impactful then some article on some shit site called wired, or naturalnews or infowars or whatever the fuck else.

Brian4Liberty
06-25-2013, 12:58 AM
The difference between Snowden and other whistleblowers is that Snowden went to an extremely competent advocate in Glenn Greenwald, and the story was released directly to the public.

Warlord
06-25-2013, 01:16 AM
China's top state newspaper has praised the fugitive US spy agency contractor Edward Snowden for "tearing off Washington's sanctimonious mask" and rejected accusations Beijing had facilitated his departure from Hong Kong.

The strongly worded front-page commentary in the overseas edition of the People's Daily, the official newspaper of the Chinese Communist party, responded to harsh criticism of China from the US for allowing Snowden to flee.

The Chinese government has said it was gravely concerned by Snowden's allegations that the US had hacked into many networks in Hong Kong and China, including Tsinghua University, which hosts one of the country's internet hubs, and Chinese mobile network companies. It said it had taken the issue up with Washington.

"Not only did the US authorities not give us an explanation and apology, it instead expressed dissatisfaction at the Hong Kong special administrative region for handling things in accordance with law," wrote Wang Xinjun, a researcher at the Academy of Military Science in the People's Daily commentary.

"In a sense, the United States has gone from a 'model of human rights' to 'an eavesdropper on personal privacy', the 'manipulator' of the centralised power over the international internet, and the mad 'invader' of other countries' networks," the People's Daily said.

The People's Daily, which reflects the thinking of the government, said China could not accept "this kind of dissatisfaction and opposition".

"The world will remember Edward Snowden," the newspaper said. "It was his fearlessness that tore off Washington's sanctimonious mask".

The exchanges mark a deterioration in ties between the two countries just weeks after a successful summit meeting between presidents Barack Obama and Xi Jinping. But experts say Washington is unlikely to resort to any punitive action.

A commentary in the Global Times, owned by the People's Daily, also attacked the US for cornering "a young idealist who has exposed the sinister scandals of the US government".

"Instead of apologising, Washington is showing off its muscle by attempting to control the whole situation," the Global Times said.

Snowden gave US authorities the slip by leaving Hong Kong on an Aeroflot plane to Moscow on Sunday. The US had requested his detention for extradition to the US on treason charges but the Hong Kong authorities responded that the papers had not been in order and Snowden was free to leave.

Jay Carney, the White House spokesman, said Washington did not believe the explanation that it was a "technical" decision by Hong Kong immigration authorities. "The Hong Kong authorities were advised of the status of Mr Snowden's travel documents in plenty of time to have prohibited his travel as appropriate. We do not buy the suggestion that China could not have taken action."

On Monday Snowden had been expected to board another plane from Moscow for Cuba and ultimately fly from there to Ecuador, which is considering granting him asylum. But journalists who boarded the plane in Moscow soon found Snowden had not taken his seat.

When the plane landed in Cuba there was likewise no sign that Snowden had been on board. The pilot greeted journalists at Havana's Jose Marti international airport by pulling out his own camera, taking pictures of the them and saying: "No Snowden, no."

The harshly worded Chinese commentaries did not appear on the country's main news portals on Tuesday afternoon. Instead most articles focused on hard news, such as Snowden's still-unknown final destination, his relationship with WikiLeaks and the details of his departure from Hong Kong.

Another editorial in the People's Daily on Monday defended the Hong Kong government for allowing Snowden to leave despite a US warrant for his arrest, claiming that it acted according to the law and "will be able to withstand examination".

"The voices of a few American politicians and media outlets surrounding the Prism scandal have become truly shrill," it said. "Not only do some of them lack the least bit of self-reflection but they also arrogantly find fault with other countries for no reason at all."

Shi Yinhong, an expert on China-US relations at Renmin University in Beijing, said the Snowden affair had given China's leaders an opportunity to shore up their own legitimacy domestically by projecting a strong message of US hypocrisy.

Yet behind the scenes, he said, top leaders were probably reluctant to allow the affair to significantly impact bilateral ties. "Maybe this will have an impact on public opinion in China, but for the Chinese government almost nothing has changed," he said. "Even if this damages China-US relations it'll be very temporary."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/25/peoples-daily-savages-us-over-snowden
-

Got a feeling that while China might be happy he's gone Russia aren't going to let him slip through and will want a full debriefing.

randpaul2016
06-25-2013, 01:19 AM
http://distilleryimage9.s3.amazonaws.com/483cbd3add5311e2942122000aaa0535_7.jpg

Brian4Liberty
06-25-2013, 01:25 AM
As far as China goes with their "protests", it's all a farce. The facts of cyber-warfare are no surprise to any country's intelligence agencies. They all know what is going on. Snowden's revelations were only revelations to the public. The insider's already knew, no matter what country is involved.

Natural Citizen
06-25-2013, 01:27 AM
The Chinese government has said it was gravely concerned by Snowden's allegations that the US had hacked into many networks in Hong Kong and China, including Tsinghua University, which hosts one of the country's internet hubs, and Chinese mobile network companies. It said it had taken the issue up with Washington.

"Not only did the US authorities not give us an explanation and apology, it instead expressed dissatisfaction at the Hong Kong special administrative region for handling things in accordance with law," wrote Wang Xinjun, a researcher at the Academy of Military Science in the People's Daily commentary.

"In a sense, the United States has gone from a 'model of human rights' to 'an eavesdropper on personal privacy', the 'manipulator' of the centralised power over the international internet, and the mad 'invader' of other countries' networks," the People's Daily said.



Well, it's an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? Can't very well go around spreading fear porn about China hacking us so that we can use it as an excuse to police the internet (at the very least) if we're doing the same thing to them. Pot, meet kettle.

Mani
06-25-2013, 01:37 AM
Well, it's an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? Can't very well go around spreading fear porn about China hacking us so that we can use it as an excuse to police the internet (at the very least) if we're doing the same thing to them. Pot, meet kettle.

It is actually kind of awesome that every country now has a chance to call the American ELITES the true Hypocrites they really are.

Your message is truly watered down and doesn't carry much weight when the listener just replies, "Ya, I'm Supposed to play nice on the internet? LMFAO!"

Natural Citizen
06-25-2013, 01:48 AM
It is actually kind of awesome that every country now has a chance to call the American ELITES the true Hypocrites they really are.

Your message is truly watered down and doesn't carry much weight when the listener just replies, "Ya, I'm Supposed to play nice on the internet? LMFAO!"

The flipside of it is that some of these countries will be able to suppress a bit more of their own tyranny/oppression because of it. I'd expect a lot of the folks who supported the Patriot Act to come out of the woodwork too demanding even tougher measures and security while using the situation with Snowden as justification. Certainly we'll be spoon fed instances where it is viewed that the practices have thwarted attacks. Problem.Reaction.Solution.

Is why it's so important to not focus or follow the media's new narrative of chasing him down while they program folks to not pay attention to the tyranny that Congress fully supported via the Patriot Act.

Is going to be a hoot for sure.

puppetmaster
06-25-2013, 01:57 AM
I'm reviewing the previous NSA Whistleblowers in the past like William Binney and Thomas Drake, but I don't really see any new information from Edward Snowden.


How did Edward Snowden become super popular, yet other NSA Whistleblowers are practically forgotten? Since this information has been fully exposed since around 2009, why is the NSA making a big deal of it? Very odd.


NSA Analyst: All Americans Were Spied On (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/computers/item/7134-nsa-analyst-all-americans-were-spied-on)

23 January 2009 | According to former NSA analyst Russell Tice, the secretive agency conducted warrantless surveillance on Americans on behalf of the Bush administration, breaching constitutional protections of privacy.

NSA Supercenters to Store Americans' Private Data Permanently (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/7674-nsa-supercenters-to-store-americans-private-data-permanently)

28 October 2009 | The National Security Agency (NSA) is building huge new storage facilities to store the unconstitutionally gained data on the American people's telephone calls and Internet traffic permanently, including new buildings in suburban Salt Lake City, Utah and San Antonio, Texas.

The "Secret" Patriot Act: Far More Dangerous Than the Public One (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/7988-the-secret-patriot-act-far-more-dangerous-than-the-public-one)

14 June 2011 | Former NSA crypto-mathematician William Binney on his eavesdropping technology invention: "I should apologize to the American people. It’s violated everyone’s rights. It can be used to eavesdrop on the whole world." Binney eventually decided to resign from the NSA because “I couldn’t be an accessory to subverting the Constitution.”

NSA's Spy Program "Stellar Wind" Exposed (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/computers/item/7254-nsa%E2%80%99s-spy-program-stellar-wind-exposed)

19 March 2012 | Thanks to Wired magazine, the enormous scope of the NSA's deliberate spying on Americans, from e-mails to receipts in their pockets, has now been exposed.

NSA Has Your E-Mails and More, Whistleblower Says (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/11081-nsa-has-your-e-mails-and-more-whistleblower-says)

23 April 2012 | The NSA -- despite U.S. law and the Constitution -- has collected most of the American people's e-mails, whistleblower William Binney said in a TV interview.

Whistleblower Protests Illegal NSA Data-Mining (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/12874-whistleblower-protests-illegal-nsa-data-mining)

17 September 2012 | A former employee of the NSA has unveiled information revealing that the U.S. government has been spying on its citizens.

NSA Whistleblower: Every American Is Under Surveillance (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/13854-nsa-whistleblower-every-american-is-under-surveillance)

06 December 2012 | NSA whistleblower William Binney says the FBI's probe into General David Petraeus indicates that "every American is under surveillance."


===

http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9780385521321_p0_v1_s260x420.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307279391/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0307279391&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20)

The Shadow Factory: The NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307279391/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0307279391&linkCode=as2&tag=libert0f-20)
James Bamford, 2009


James Bamford has been the preeminent expert on the National Security Agency since his reporting revealed the agency’s existence in the 1980s. Now Bamford describes the transformation of the NSA since 9/11, as the agency increasingly turns its high-tech ears on the American public.

The Shadow Factory reconstructs how the NSA missed a chance to thwart the 9/11 hijackers and details how this mistake has led to a heightening of domestic surveillance. In disturbing detail, Bamford describes exactly how every American’s data is being mined and what is being done with it. Any reader who thinks America’s liberties are being protected by Congress will be shocked and appalled at what is revealed here.

Which makes me even more curious if this is a big BIG set up. Imagine him being tried here in the US. Riots?

Occam's Banana
06-25-2013, 02:01 AM
As far as China goes with their "protests", it's all a farce. The facts of cyber-warfare are no surprise to any country's intelligence agencies. They all know what is going on. Snowden's revelations were only revelations to the public. The insider's already knew, no matter what country is involved.

All true. The worth of Snowdens "revelations" consists of two things:

(1) giving us particulars and details to "hang our hats on" (instead of "mere" abstractions which can be "brushed aside" much more easily)

(2) turning the U.S. government's "plausible deniability" on these issues into a deep & smoking crater