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donnay
06-24-2013, 08:10 AM
American factory boss says he's being held hostage by scores of workers in Beijing


http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/assets/660/371/ChinaAmericanBossHostage.JPG?ve=1


An American executive said Monday he has been held hostage for four days at his medical supply plant in Beijing by scores of workers demanding severance packages like those given to 30 co-workers in a phased-out department.

Chip Starnes, 42, a co-owner of Coral Springs, Florida-based Specialty Medical Supplies, said local officials had visited the 10-year-old plant on the capital's outskirts and coerced him into signing agreements Saturday to meet the workers' demands even though he sought to make clear that the remaining 100 workers weren't being laid off.

The workers were expecting wire transfers by Tuesday, he said, adding that about 80 of them had been blocking every exit around the clock and depriving him of sleep by shining bright lights and banging on windows of his office. He declined to clarify the amount, saying he wanted to keep it confidential.

"I feel like a trapped animal," Starnes told The Associated Press on Monday from his first-floor office window, while holding onto the window's bars. "I think it's inhumane what is going on right now. I have been in this area for 10 years and created a lot of jobs and I would never have thought in my wildest imagination something like this would happen."

Workers inside the compound, a pair of two-story buildings behind gates and hedges in the Huairou district of the northeastern Beijing suburbs, repeatedly declined requests for comment, saying they did not want to talk to foreign media.

A local police spokesman said police were at the scene to maintain order. Four uniformed police and about a dozen other men who declined to identify themselves were standing across the road from the plant.

"As far as I know, there was a labor dispute between the workers and the company management and the dispute is being solved," said spokesman Zhao Lu of the Huairou Public Security Bureau. " I am not sure about the details of the solution, but I can guarantee the personal safety of the manager."

Representatives from the U.S. Embassy stood outside the gate but said they had no comment.

The protest reflects growing uneasiness among workers about China's slowing economic growth and the sense that growing labor costs make country a less attractive place for some foreign-owned factories. The account about local officials coercing Starnes to meet workers' demands -- if true -- reflects how officials typically consider quashing unrest to be a paramount priority.

It is not rare in China for managers to be held by workers demanding back pay or other benefits, often from their Chinese owners, though occasionally also involving foreign bosses. It is unusual for such an incident to take place in Beijing because most such ventures have moved elsewhere in China because of high costs in the capital.

Starnes said the company had gradually been winding down its plastics division, planning to move it to Mumbai, India. He arrived in Beijing last Tuesday to lay off the last 30 people. Some had been working there for up to nine years, so their compensation packages were "pretty nice," he said.

Some of the workers in the other divisions got wind of this, and, coupled with rumors that the whole plant was moving to India, started demanding similar severance packages on Friday.

Source:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/24/american-factory-boss-says-being-held-hostage-by-scores-workers-in-beijing/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fmost-popular+%28Internal+-+Most+Popular+Content%29#ixzz2X8uOyqCn

tod evans
06-24-2013, 08:15 AM
Narry a grunion of sympathy from this ol' hillbilly....

BAllen
06-24-2013, 08:18 AM
Aw, that's a shame. Notice how the police are not interested in helping this man out of the plant. No, he is on his own, until negotions (demands) are met.
So Indian labor is cheaper than China, now. Wonder if the Chinese have ideas of retaliating against India.

Austrian Econ Disciple
06-24-2013, 12:43 PM
You get what you pay for. I don't expect my .0002 cent plastic utensils to last as long, be of a higher quality, and perform much better than sterling silver dinner ware. Though it does go to show you that Police everywhere are just soldiers for the State. If it's in their interest, you best bet they have their henchman (police) on it. Just-us everywhere...what a miserable lot this planet and our species is.

donnay
06-24-2013, 01:47 PM
"I feel like a trapped animal," Starnes told The Associated Press on Monday from his first-floor office window, while holding onto the window's bars. "I think it's inhumane what is going on right now. I have been in this area for 10 years and created a lot of jobs and I would never have thought in my wildest imagination something like this would happen."

Frankly, I think this man is rather pretentious myself. You turned your back on your fellow citizens, and expect us to feel sorry for you being held prisoner in a foreign land that you all thought you could rake in the cash with slave labor?

BAllen
06-24-2013, 01:55 PM
Same thing in New York with the Manufacturers wanting to crack down on knock off brands. They want free market labor, until it hurts THEM. Then, they squeal like stuck pigs. This is why I think Pat Buchanan protectionism is the best choice. I don't see how we will ever have a free market. We know it will work, but it simply will not be allowed. How many times have I posted the solution of free market principles on the local level? Even with that new politician that posted a thread. All I hear are crickets.

mczerone
06-24-2013, 01:59 PM
Frankly, I think this man is rather pretentious myself. You turned your back on your fellow citizens, and expect us to feel sorry for you being held prisoner in a foreign land that you all thought you could rake in the cash with slave labor?

Yeah! He should have opened a business here in the states and gone out of business 8 years ago because all the other businesses recognized what a horrible work environment the US govt has created for laborers! Screw those Chinese people that were helped by his plant. He owes a DUTY to the other slaves on THIS plantation!


On the original article: if he was really imprisoned to coerce a contract bonus, I doubt the Chinese courts would enforce the contracts. And they might be jointly liable in a civil suit, depending on the structure of the Chinese courts. And since they've been trying to emulate the US system as of late to be more of a "global team player" I wouldn't doubt it.

Southron
06-24-2013, 08:40 PM
I don't feel much sympathy for this fellow. He made his bed; now let him sleep in it.

LibForestPaul
06-24-2013, 08:53 PM
Frankly, I think this man is rather pretentious myself. You turned your back on your fellow citizens, and expect us to feel sorry for you being held prisoner in a foreign land that you all thought you could rake in the cash with slave labor?

Why is he needed? What value does he add? Why can not an Indian exec or Chinese exec replace his role?

donnay
06-24-2013, 09:43 PM
Why is he needed? What value does he add? Why can not an Indian exec or Chinese exec replace his role?

I dunno? It is probably a technicality to having and American Business outsourced.

mad cow
06-24-2013, 10:15 PM
I read of something like that in a fortune cookie,once.

Antischism
06-24-2013, 10:32 PM
No sympathy from me at all. Enjoy your slave labor.

KCIndy
06-24-2013, 10:43 PM
"I feel like a trapped animal," Starnes told The Associated Press on Monday from his first-floor office window, while holding onto the window's bars. "I think it's inhumane what is going on right now. I have been in this area for 10 years and created a lot of jobs and I would never have thought in my wildest imagination something like this would happen."



http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wal-mart-standards-fail-in-china-worker-rights-abused-report-shows-73613147.html


NEW YORK, Nov 25 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Workers making shoes, Christmas lights, tools, curtains and paper boxes sold at Wal-Mart stores labor in illegal and degrading conditions. China Labor Watch's latest investigation of five Wal-Mart supplier factories reveals that not a single factory has implemented Wal-Mart's basic standards, and a total of 10,000 workers included in the report suffer serious rights abuses.


Heh. What goes around, comes around.

Right, Mr. Starnes?

2young2vote
06-24-2013, 10:44 PM
No sympathy from me at all. Enjoy your slave labor.

Slave labor - now with severance packages!

He didn't do anything wrong and they are holding him hostage. Sounds more like mob rule than peaceful negotiations. Essentially they want money and are taking it by force, no different from the government.

oyarde
06-25-2013, 12:14 AM
I am still trying to figure out how they think they are entitled to the sever. pack. when they still have a job and are supposed to be working, if China is that fucked up , there goes the world economy ..... slackers :)

Brian4Liberty
06-25-2013, 12:35 AM
Hard to see a "bad" angle to this story. False imprisonment without due process would be the biggest issue, but the US Constitution is toilet paper, right?

Cutlerzzz
06-25-2013, 12:36 AM
ITT:

People are supposed to only invest in their home country, slaves get severence packages, voluntary transactions are wrong, and comparative advantage does not exist.

enoch150
06-25-2013, 12:50 AM
I am still trying to figure out how they think they are entitled to the sever. pack. when they still have a job and are supposed to be working

*had* a job.

Warrior_of_Freedom
06-25-2013, 05:29 AM
now he knows how they feel, being locked up in a factory all day

kathy88
06-25-2013, 05:30 AM
Fuck this guy. Take American jobs away and you are getting what you deserve. Jackass.

Danan
06-25-2013, 05:47 AM
What a bunch of terrible, unlibertarian posts...

talkingpointes
06-25-2013, 05:50 AM
What a bunch of terrible, unlibertarian posts...

Hey now, we own those jobs. Just today I had to remind my boss that if he didn't keep in line I was going to have to strike...

What a bunch of animals. Let's create a mob to get our way. What's the point of starting a business though where this can happen. The guy in some ways can alleviate this, but he needs new workers for sure.

Warrior_of_Freedom
06-25-2013, 06:25 AM
What a bunch of terrible, unlibertarian posts...
He's in China, not the U.S. Our constitution doesn't apply. Hiring workers who can only/barely afford to feed and clothe themselves is not much better than black slavery in the 1800's

thoughtomator
06-25-2013, 06:32 AM
What's unlibertarian about disapproval of slave labor outsourcing?

Philhelm
06-25-2013, 06:38 AM
The other issues aside, I hope that Americans aren't used in any way whatsoever to dissolve the situation. We should outsource.

Occam's Banana
06-25-2013, 08:12 AM
This is over severance packages? For people who aren't even being severed? Srsly?

It sounds to me like this is about jealousy and envy, rather than any kind of mistreatment or "exploitation."

And if anything, I rather suspect that a very great many "American Workers" have an even greater sense of entitlement.


The protest reflects growing uneasiness among workers about China's slowing economic growth and the sense that growing labor costs make country a less attractive place for some foreign-owned factories.

Well, now, that's just hilarious. How is holding the execs of foreign-owned companies hostage supposed to alleviate said "uneasiness" - let alone make the country a more "attractive place for some foreign-owned factories?"

And I can't help but wonder - do those of us voicing approval for this think such a course would be prudent for American workers in foreign-owned factories here in America? This is not a rhetorical question. If the Fed-fueled petro-dollar ever bites the big one ...

BAllen
06-25-2013, 08:16 AM
India isn't any safer.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/01/27/india-factory-workers-revolt-kill-company-president/

Danan
06-25-2013, 09:58 AM
What's unlibertarian about disapproval of slave labor outsourcing?

There are at least three problems in your single sentence:

1) It's absolutely not about "disapproval" but about (physical) harassment. And harassing people clearly violates libertarian ethics.

2) I haven't seen anything indicating slave labor. Could you point out where the article says the workers are being coerced to work there? To me it sounds like a bunch of workers believing their boss owes them anything that he never agreed to pay them. Just like unionists everywhere else, envious and with an entitlement-mentality.

3) Even if it were "slave labor" what's the problem with outsourcing it? Would you rather have slave labor in America? Is it also "slave labor outsourcing" to you, if a company moves its plants from California to Texas because they can produce there cheaper? Because that's exactly what this company owner does, just not from one state to another, but from one nation to another. So what?

The fact that business owners have the ability to move their capital abroad should the political environment get worse is probably the only reason why taxes in the US aren't much, much higher yet. And undoubtly also the reason why overall prices are far lower than what they would otherwise be.

This man owns a profitable business and thereby creates wealth for society at large. Not only should he not be treated that way by his workers (nobody should), but he should also be complimented and praised by libertarians for being a great example of free market entrepreneurship, for creating products that people demand and for creating jobs for people in otherwise terrible living conditions.

Of course that's all assuming that he didn't physically force them to work for him, etc. But why would we assume this without any indication?

Danan
06-25-2013, 10:09 AM
He's in China, not the U.S. Our constitution doesn't apply. Hiring workers who can only/barely afford to feed and clothe themselves is not much better than black slavery in the 1800's

Yes it is much better. You can leave and are not property of someone else. Just because your productivity is so terrible that nobody is going to pay you more doesn't mean your're being enslaved. That's not even comparable.

If you don't understand the difference between real slavery and being paid very little in a consensual employment contract, I don't know how you made it to 4,666 posts here.

Also I absolutely don't understand what this has to do with the US constitution.

donnay
06-25-2013, 10:18 AM
This is daycare for many Chinese factory workers:

http://xaxor.com/images/other/11119922/tied_up_chinese_toddlers_04.jpg

Sources:
http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/pictures/chinese-children-tied-up-while-parents-work-zhejiang.html
http://izismile.com/2010/04/26/tied_up_babies_in_china.html

Danan
06-25-2013, 10:45 AM
These kids may otherwise be working on some barren field, begging on the streets or fishing "valuable" shit out of scrapyards. As long as the factory doesn't force their laborers to work there, I trust the kids' parents decision to know what's the best alternative for them. Or do you believe Chinese people are unable to make good parenting decisions for their children, or just don't care for them?

Just simply looking at their living standards and comparing them with ours doesn't work. You have to look at their local alternatives and it turns out that working for foreign companies is by far the best option most of the times. These companies are - overall - a huge blessing for developing countries and are integral to lifting them out of poverty.

amy31416
06-25-2013, 11:05 AM
This is daycare for many Chinese factory workers:

http://xaxor.com/images/other/11119922/tied_up_chinese_toddlers_04.jpg

Sources:
http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/pictures/chinese-children-tied-up-while-parents-work-zhejiang.html
http://izismile.com/2010/04/26/tied_up_babies_in_china.html

Shit. I wish I could find a job where I could bring my kid.

I know conditions there suck for many workers, but in some ways they have a lot more freedom.

mczerone
06-25-2013, 11:55 AM
What's unlibertarian about disapproval of slave labor outsourcing?

Example of disapproving: "I wish that guy could have success employing people in MY area, and at the least would be providing desirable employment to people wherever he goes. I'm going to not buy from his company unless he changes his employment/production methods."

Example of Unlibertarian opinions in this thread: "I'm glad that this guy was imprisoned by those people who are mad that he's outsourcing their jobs to India. He should have been imprisoned for taking those jobs to China in the first place. And those willing employees in China are slaves and the employer shouldn't be able to employ them at a mutually agreed upon wage. We need a global state to enforce minimum wages everywhere!"

enoch150
06-25-2013, 09:04 PM
This is daycare for many Chinese factory workers:

http://xaxor.com/images/other/11119922/tied_up_chinese_toddlers_04.jpg


Nice. They tied the kids to the wall and then put that slide/jungle gym combo thingy just out of reach. The Chinese certainly are creative in their torture.

The article says the kids are tied to the wall 10 hours / day. I wonder where they go to the bathroom.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img3/20100425/640/tied_up_babies_gK000_640_03.jpg

Brian4Liberty
06-25-2013, 09:20 PM
These kids may otherwise be working on some barren field, begging on the streets or fishing "valuable" shit out of scrapyards.

So let's pretend these are dogs instead of kids. Chained to a wall, or out doing what they naturally do, experiencing the world. Yeah, chained to a wall will make them well-rounded dogs. Just don't let the Animal Planet Police know about it.

mad cow
06-25-2013, 09:34 PM
Nice. They tied the kids to the wall and then put that slide/jungle gym combo thingy just out of reach. The Chinese certainly are creative in their torture.

The article says the kids are tied to the wall 10 hours / day. I wonder where they go to the bathroom.

http://img.izismile.com/img/img3/20100425/640/tied_up_babies_gK000_640_03.jpg

That slide/jungle gym thingy is probably feeding a bandsaw.

donnay
06-25-2013, 09:35 PM
These kids may otherwise be working on some barren field, begging on the streets or fishing "valuable" shit out of scrapyards. As long as the factory doesn't force their laborers to work there, I trust the kids' parents decision to know what's the best alternative for them. Or do you believe Chinese people are unable to make good parenting decisions for their children, or just don't care for them?

Just simply looking at their living standards and comparing them with ours doesn't work. You have to look at their local alternatives and it turns out that working for foreign companies is by far the best option most of the times. These companies are - overall - a huge blessing for developing countries and are integral to lifting them out of poverty.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yjgivvh08Y



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4oGVoYtipk

KCIndy
06-25-2013, 09:50 PM
Here's the Business Insider article relating the story of Donnay's first video:

http://www.businessinsider.com/author-of-kmart-factory-letter-found-2013-6


excerpt:


The man, identified only as Mr. Zhang to protect his identity, told the Times that he was imprisoned in a labor camp where "inmates toiled seven days a week, their 15-hour days haunted by sadistic guards."

The labor camps are full of petty criminals or people who rebel against the country's religion, Mr. Zhang said. He said he wrote 20 letters over the course of two years.


Obviously, some - probably most - labor in China is voluntary, but they're a long, looooong way away from it being ALL voluntary.

So, next time you're in Walmart buying some Chinese-made POS that's going to break after you use it three times, think about whether it might have been made by some poor bastard who was just hoping not to get his skull kicked in by one of his guards.

:mad:

KCIndy
06-25-2013, 10:13 PM
While we're at it, here's an interesting photo essay by a photographer who was allowed access to some Chinese toy factories.

http://www.businessinsider.com/photos-china-toy-factories-2012-12

THE WORKERS WHO MAKE THE TOYS:
http://static.businessinsider.com/image/50c65079ecad04f270000001-1200/every-day-the-workers-have-to-arrive-15-minutes-before-the-regular-work-shift-begins-for-a-work-assembly.jpg

AND THE PEOPLE WHO BUY 'EM:
http://static.businessinsider.com/image/50c674beecad04fe35000000-1200/now-see-everyone-buying-toys-like-those.jpg


Yeah. Merry fuckin' Christmas, everyone!

:(

Cutlerzzz
06-25-2013, 11:04 PM
Here's the Business Insider article relating the story of Donnay's first video:

http://www.businessinsider.com/author-of-kmart-factory-letter-found-2013-6


The article you posted doesn't sound legitimate. China has no national religion. Most of its people are atheists.

donnay
06-25-2013, 11:12 PM
The article you posted doesn't sound legitimate. China has no national religion. Most of its people are atheists.

Falun Gong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

Persecution of Falun Gong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

Falun Gong: China's other oppressed spiritual movement
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/121115/falun-gong-religious-persecution-torture-human-rights-Tibet

Cutlerzzz
06-25-2013, 11:19 PM
Falun Gong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

Persecution of Falun Gong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

Falun Gong: China's other oppressed spiritual movement
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/china/121115/falun-gong-religious-persecution-torture-human-rights-Tibet

That has nothing to do with the statement in the article, which says that people who have rebelled against the national religion in China are imprisoned. There is no national religion to rebel against in China and the majority of Chinese are not religious. If the article said that people who have rebelled against Chinese government religious laws were imprisoned, you would have a point.

donnay
06-25-2013, 11:32 PM
That has nothing to do with the statement in the article, which says that people who have rebelled against the national religion in China are imprisoned. There is no national religion to rebel against in China and the majority of Chinese are not religious. If the article said that people who have rebelled against Chinese government religious laws were imprisoned, you would have a point.

The state only recognizes five official religions—Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism—and considers the practice of any other faith illegal.

RickyJ
06-25-2013, 11:45 PM
It is not rare in China for managers to be held by workers demanding back pay or other benefits, often from their Chinese owners, though occasionally also involving foreign bosses.
Nice to know. I have an ex-employer who owes me a weeks vacation pay, it would be nice to hold the owners hostage until I get it legally. :D I wouldn't do it though, I would just never recommend them and tell everyone to stay away from Vertafore's Image Right.

oyarde
06-25-2013, 11:54 PM
Nice to know. I have an ex-employer who owes me a weeks vacation pay, it would be nice to hold the owners hostage until I get it legally. :D I wouldn't do it though, I would just never recommend them and tell everyone to stay away from Vertafore's Image Right.

You should tether them up with no toys or bathroom untill they give it to you .

Cutlerzzz
06-26-2013, 12:01 AM
The state only recognizes five official religions—Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism—and considers the practice of any other faith illegal.

And?

donnay
06-26-2013, 07:35 AM
And?

Falun Gong is NOT recognized and is considered illegal.

donnay
06-27-2013, 06:29 AM
Update:


US Boss Freed After Being Held By China Employees

Chip Starnes reaches deal on workers' severance packages


By the Associated Press


Posted Jun 26, 2013 6:24 PM CDT

It's not your usual employer-employee negotiation: A US company boss held hostage by his Chinese workers for nearly a week has left the plant. Chip Starnes said his company struck a deal to pay the dozens of workers who had demanded generous severance packages—even though they weren't being laid off. Some workers had said that when they saw equipment being packed up and itemized for shipping to India last week, they feared the whole medical supply plant was moving. Some said they were owed unpaid salary. "It has been resolved to each side's satisfaction," said labor official Chu Lixiang.

Starnes, a co-owner of Florida-based Specialty Medical Supplies, earlier said he had been forced to give in to their demands. He summed up the past several days as "humiliating, embarrassing, saddened." During his time as hostage, he spoke with reporters through a barred window of his office where he spent much of his time. All the workers will be terminated, Chu said; Starnes said some would later be rehired."Yes!! Out and back at hotel," Starnes wrote in a text message. "Showered... 9 pounds lost during the ordeal!!!!!!"


Source:
http://www.newser.com/story/170132/deal-near-to-free-us-boss-held-by-china-employees.html

tod evans
06-27-2013, 06:33 AM
And no mention of a domestic labor pool....

Remember this name; "Specialty Medical Supplies" if you're in need of supplies....

fr33
06-27-2013, 06:38 AM
Frankly, I think this man is rather pretentious myself. You turned your back on your fellow citizens, and expect us to feel sorry for you being held prisoner in a foreign land that you all thought you could rake in the cash with slave labor?

Collectivist rubbish. You act as if he owes you something just because he happened to be be born on the land mass known as the United States.

donnay
06-27-2013, 08:07 AM
Collectivist rubbish. You act as if he owes you something just because he happened to be be born on the land mass known as the United States.


This man doesn't owe me anything. His consequences are doing business with a country that has a track record of inhumane business practices in the first place. Now, he has a taste of it. These US based companies lose sight of this through their greed for profits with slave wages. If you recall these people stood up to him because many of them had not been paid for two months. The funny thing of it all is, most of the workers were women holding this man hostage.


Here is the story:

Chinese workers holding US boss say wages unpaid
Posted: Jun 25, 2013 2:05 AM EDT Updated: Jun 25, 2013 7:16 AM EDT

By LOUISE WATT
Associated Press

BEIJING (AP) - Chinese workers keeping an American executive confined to his Beijing medical supply factory said Tuesday that they had not been paid in two months in a compensation dispute that highlights tensions in China's labor market.

The executive, Chip Starnes of Specialty Medical Supplies, denied the workers' allegations of two months of unpaid wages, as he endured a fifth day of captivity at the plant in the capital's northeastern suburbs, peering out from behind the bars of his office window.

About 100 workers are demanding back pay and severance packages identical to those offered 30 workers being laid off from the Coral Springs, Florida-based company's plastics division. The demands followed rumors that the entire plant was being closed, despite Starnes' assertion that the company doesn't plan to fire the others.

The dispute highlights general tensions in China's labor market as bosses worry about rising wages and workers are on edge about the impact of slowing growth on the future of their jobs.

Inside one of the plant's buildings, about 30 mostly women hung around, their arms crossed. One worker, Gao Ping, told reporters inside an administrative office that she wanted to quit because she hadn't been paid for two months.

Dressed in blue overalls and sitting down at a desk, Gao said her division - which makes alcohol prep pads, used for cleaning skin before injections - had not been doing well and that she wanted her salary and compensation.

Workers in other divisions saw her division doing badly, thought the whole company was faring poorly and also wanted to quit and get compensation, said Gao, who had been working for the company for six years.

Starnes, 42, denied that they were owed unpaid salary.

"They are demanding full severance pay, but they still have a job. That's the problem," he said, still in the clothes he wore when he went to work Friday morning.

Chu Lixiang, a local union official representing the workers in talks with Starnes, said the workers were demanding the portion of their salaries yet to be paid and a "reasonable" level of compensation before leaving their jobs. Neither gave details on the amounts demanded.

Chu said workers believed the plant was closing and that Starnes would run away without paying severance. Starnes' attorney arrived Tuesday afternoon. Chu later told reporters that there would be no negotiations for the rest of the day.

Starnes said that since Saturday morning, about 80 workers had been blocking every exit around the clock and depriving him of sleep by shining bright lights and banging on windows of his office.

The standoff points to long-ingrained habits among Chinese workers who are sometimes left unprotected when factories close without severance or wages owed. Such incidents have been rarer as labor protections improve, although disputes still occur and local governments have at times barred foreign executives from leaving until they are resolved.

Continued... (http://www.newswest9.com/story/22676796/us-boss-held-by-chinese-workers-awaits-outcome)

Danan
06-27-2013, 10:15 AM
If there was involuntary labor or if the employer violated his contract and didn't pay them then the use of force would be justified (depending on the severity).

That was not the premise of this thread though. Some people here attacked the man not for physically forcing laborers to work for him or because he was overdue in his salary payments, but because he dared to strive to make a profit and therefore produced abroad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with locating your business to wherever it's most profitable. That's the essence of free market capitalism and a good thing.

tod evans
06-27-2013, 10:25 AM
You're absolutely correct in that "There is absolutely nothing wrong with locating your business to wherever it's most profitable".

There is also nothing wrong with me or anyone else who so chooses, not to purchase his wares.

There are plenty of people who shop strictly on price and that is their prerogative.

I'm one of "those" people who tries to support local businesses first, domestic second and foreign as a last result.....

Many are not like me.



If there was involuntary labor or if the employer violated his contract and didn't pay them then the use of force would be justified (depending on the severity).

That was not the premise of this thread though. Some people here attacked the man not for physically forcing laborers to work for him or because he was overdue in his salary payments, but because he dared to strive to make a profit and therefore produced abroad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with locating your business to wherever it's most profitable. That's the essence of free market capitalism and a good thing.

Danan
06-27-2013, 10:44 AM
You're absolutely correct in that "There is absolutely nothing wrong with locating your business to wherever it's most profitable".

There is also nothing wrong with me or anyone else who so chooses, not to purchase his wares.

There are plenty of people who shop strictly on price and that is their prerogative.

I'm one of "those" people who tries to support local businesses first, domestic second and foreign as a last result.....

Many are not like me.

It's one thing to do that because you genuinly believe that the quality of products from your region is higher than that of others. I don't see what difference it makes other than that, though. If anything Chinese workers are way poorer than "Western" workers and thus if you purchase based on "higher motives" it seems to me that supporting Chinese products would make more sense than supporting domestic ones.

But of course everyobdy should be perfectly free to decide that on their own. That's not in the realm of libertarian/unlibertarian anymore, just like there is no unlibertarian ice cream flavor. But I still wouldn't understand why anyone would love dirt- or exhaust gas-flavored ice cream, the same way how I don't understand why supporting a producer just because he happens to be based in the same political jurisdiciton makes a whole lot of sense. But whatever floats your boat.

oyarde
06-27-2013, 11:03 AM
I need to remind my boss these people got generous severence packages even though they are still working, I could go for some of that :)

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 11:57 AM
Do we really have this many protectionists on RPF? I disagree with all of you, of course. Your ideas are totally irrational and anti-freedom. And idiotic.

"Slave" is a word with a meaning. These workers are not slaves. This is not slave labor. This is just labor. Wages are lower in these impoverished Asian countries. Guess what? Prices are lower, too! Astoundingly lower! The wage might only be a dollar a day, but go out to the market and you can buy food for a week with that dollar!

Is it bad that businesses went to China? China made special economic zones more attractive to businesses than the west. So what happened? A large amount of the capital equipment of the world was packed up and moved there. That's not a bad thing. That's a very very good thing. That's the productive class putting the States of the world on notice: "Get too oppressive, we'll just move." Let's say tomorrow China decides to raise taxes? OK. In ten years the Chinese politicians wake up with a ghost town. Nothing left to rob. The capital all moved to Indonesia, or wherever. Wherever it was more welcome. Time after that, the move may only take 5 years. We're getting more and more mobile. The businessmen are getting more savvy. They're figuring out they don't have to put up with this scam we call the state. Not its worst depredations, anyway.

Last year I was in India about a month. Mumbai(Bombay) is the freedom center of India. The whole state of Maharashta, really. These guys are not moving just because Indian labor is cheap. You want cheap, go to Nepal. Why does no one go to Nepal? No logistics, for one thing. No complex, developed market. Not enough freedom. But Bombay is thriving. All the ambitious young people from the entire country are streaming into Bombay, because they know that that is where the freedom is. That is where the opportunity is. There were random machine shops all over the place there. Guys running manual lathes. Little roadside stands who will weld your bike back together, or any part or thing you want (because you probably can't buy it, no Home Depot or Walmart, so you'll have to make it). It's a very dynamic, exciting place. The whole city seems to be under construction. Primitive wood-and-rope scaffolding is everywhere -- that's what they use even for building the most modern new high rises. So it's an interesting mix.

It's no surprise that they'd move a plastics operation to Bombay. That would be a good place for something like that.

donnay
06-27-2013, 12:01 PM
Do we really have this many protectionists on RPF? I disagree with all of you, of course. Your ideas are totally irrational and anti-freedom. And idiotic.

"Slave" is a word with a meaning. These workers are not slaves. This is not slave labor. This is just labor. Wages are lower in these impoverished Asian countries. Guess what? Prices are lower, too! Astoundingly lower! The wage might only be a dollar a day, but go out to the market and you can buy food for a week with that dollar!

Is it bad that businesses went to China? China made special economic zones more attractive to businesses than the west. So what happened? A large amount of the capital equipment of the world was packed up and moved there. That's not a bad thing. That's a very very good thing. That's the productive class putting the States of the world on notice: "Get too oppressive, we'll just move." Let's say tomorrow China decides to raise taxes? OK. In ten years the Chinese politicians wake up with a ghost town. Nothing left to rob. The capital all moved to Indonesia, or wherever. Wherever it was more welcome. Time after that, the move may only take 5 years. We're getting more and more mobile. The businessmen are getting more savvy. They're figuring out they don't have to put up with this scam we call the state. Not its worst depredations, anyway.

Last year I was in India about a month. Mumbai(Bombay) is the freedom center of India. The whole state of Maharashta, really. These guys are not moving just because Indian labor is cheap. You want cheap, go to Nepal. Why does no one go to Nepal? No logistics, for one thing. No complex, developed market. Not enough freedom. But Bombay is thriving. All the ambitious young people from the entire country are streaming into Bombay, because they know that that is where the freedom is. That is where the opportunity is. There were random machine shops all over the place there. Guys running manual lathes. Little roadside stands who will weld your bike back together, or any part or thing you want (because you probably can't buy it, no Home Depot or Walmart, so you'll have to make it). It's a very dynamic, exciting place. The whole city seems to be under construction. Primitive wood-and-rope scaffolding is everywhere -- that's what they use even for building the most modern new high rises. So it's an interesting mix.

It's no surprise that they'd move a plastics operation to Bombay. That would be a good place for something like that.



We're all slaves on this global plantation. It's just in different degrees.

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 12:03 PM
And?

I think your point is too subtle for her.

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 12:08 PM
We're all slaves on this global plantation. It's just in different degrees.

It was your statement that this manager was using slave labor. That is, that he was a manager of slaves. He was overseeing a slave operation.

This entire view is ludicrously false and outrageous. This man was no slaver. He was a human being, contracting voluntarily with other human beings, in a free and open way. All of them labor under an oppressive State, so in that sense you are right. If they are all paying taxes to the Chinese State, they are all slaves to the Chinese State to that extent. But they are not slaves to Chip Starnes. Chip Starnes is an upstanding businessman and a victim of a mob.

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 12:13 PM
And no mention of a domestic labor pool....

Remember this name; "Specialty Medical Supplies" if you're in need of supplies....
What truly idiotic and self-destructive business would choose to move to the horrible jurisdiction called the United States if they could go somewhere else? Anywhere else?

I wish that far more businesses would move out of the US. Rather than just placidly sitting around getting stepped on and robbed from and humiliated and hated. Let the moochers mooch off someone else. Shrug.

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 12:22 PM
There are plenty of people who shop strictly on price and that is their prerogative.

I'm one of "those" people who tries to support local businesses first, domestic second and foreign as a last result.....

Many are not like me. The opposite of irrationally supporting "local" business is not shopping "strictly on price." It is shopping based on the actual product, rather than on a consideration irrelevant and immaterial to the product. Based on everything else that is not a blind loyalty to local-ness. Higher quality, better service, particular features, greater durability, better warranty, more variety, better design, more convenience, better price. All these are rational factors which play into the decisions of non-bigots. You are certainly free to be bigoted in favor of local businesses. We are free to mock you for your irrational bigotry. Because that's all it is: bigotry. A strange type of fashionable bigotry.

Southron
06-27-2013, 02:00 PM
I'm one of "those" people who tries to support local businesses first, domestic second and foreign as a last result.....

I also try to support local businesses first. I put more value in community than price.

From my experience, most people purchase items based on price alone. There usually isn't too much thought that goes into those purchases aside from that. I think this leads to a downward spiral in quality of many products.

tod evans
06-27-2013, 02:09 PM
The opposite of irrationally supporting "local" business is not shopping "strictly on price." It is shopping based on the actual product, rather than on a consideration irrelevant and immaterial to the product. Based on everything else that is not a blind loyalty to local-ness. Higher quality, better service, particular features, greater durability, better warranty, more variety, better design, more convenience, better price. All these are rational factors which play into the decisions of non-bigots. You are certainly free to be bigoted in favor of local businesses. We are free to mock you for your irrational bigotry. Because that's all it is: bigotry. A strange type of fashionable bigotry.

How quickly you fall into the stereotypical assumptions of the irrational mind and assume that such common sense matters as quality/durability/design etc. would be overshadowed by consumer preference to local economies.

By using the buzz word bigot you have in fact attempted to justify you own quest for cheap labor in the world market.

How bigoted of you sir to assume that goods I purchase must be of higher quality for lesser monies if they are produced across the ocean.

You and the mouse in your pocket that constitute "we" seem to somehow regularly draw inaccurate conclusions and base assumptions off of them....That must keep your life in other countries interesting.

tod evans
06-27-2013, 02:29 PM
What truly idiotic and self-destructive business would choose to move to the horrible jurisdiction called the United States if they could go somewhere else? Anywhere else?

I wish that far more businesses would move out of the US. Rather than just placidly sitting around getting stepped on and robbed from and humiliated and hated. Let the moochers mooch off someone else. Shrug.

I thank God that my business doesn't mass produce a product susceptible to inexpensive labor half a world away.

Anybody who is able to produce a product in the USA, even with all the faults of government, employs Americans.

As much as I detest "our government" I care about my friends and neighbors and would like them to have the luxury of producing anything of their own that others find useful and worthy of their investment.

So unlike your position of wishing my friends and neighbors would move to another country before starting their business, I would like to see them stay right here and help fix the broken country.

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 02:41 PM
I also try to support local businesses first. I put more value in community than price.

Why is it all about price?

Do you put more value in supporting local businesses than in the safety of your family? Would you buy a typical shoddy, dangerous, unreliable US-made system or product over the more high-quality versions made with the modern equipment and skilled technical know-how which have all fled elsewhere? How much are you willing to give up for your religious-type aversion to world trade?

tod evans
06-27-2013, 02:50 PM
Why is it all about price?

Do you put more value in supporting local businesses than in the safety of your family? Would you buy a typical shoddy, dangerous, unreliable US-made system or product over the more high-quality versions made with the modern equipment and skilled technical know-how which have all fled elsewhere? How much are you willing to give up for your religious-type aversion to world trade?

What a completely ridiculous, and certainly product specific, assertion.

Placing family in danger by purchasing locally manufactured products....

More fallacious assertions that "all" skilled technical knowhow and modern equipment have fled the country"...

Are you drunk this afternoon helmuth?

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 03:28 PM
How quickly you fall into the stereotypical assumptions of the irrational mind and assume that such common sense matters as quality/durability/design etc. would be overshadowed by consumer preference to local economies. I merely pointed out that price is but one dimension of total product efficaciousness. You could have written:

"There are plenty of people who shop strictly on quality and durability and that is their prerogative."

Instead you wrote:

"There are plenty of people who shop strictly on price and that is their prerogative."

This reflects your view that the result of world trade is cheap, shoddy, junky products. Of course, this is completely opposite of the truth. Free global commerce leads to better and better products, in all dimensions important to consumers: price, customer responsiveness, delivery speed, consistency, etc. It is protectionism that leads to junk products: junk cars, for instance. When we all should just buy cars from the Japanese who actually know how to make them, instead we have this farce called American car companies, foisting absolutely garbage monstrosities upon us. So yeah, let's buy local to encourage more of that? No, even voluntary protectionism is just utterly brainless. Buy the best, from the best, whether it's made by whites or blacks or Jews or hispanics or Chinese. I'm all for your freedom to refuse to buy from black people for whatever reason. It's just brainless, and you'll pay an economic price for it, sometimes steep.


By using the buzz word bigot you have in fact attempted to justify you own quest for cheap labor in the world market. What quest? Is this quest justified or unjustified, and why? How did I attempt (unsuccessfully, I presume) to justify it?

You just have this irrational aversion to buying things from black people Chinese people. So I'm calling you on it. I did not mean to be justifying anything I am doing, quest or otherwise, and indeed I discussed no such thing, and much less did I attempt to justify it. So it is unsurprising that I would fail in such a justification, not having attempted it. :)


How bigoted of you sir to assume that goods I purchase must be of higher quality for lesser monies if they are produced across the ocean. Oh dear, what a dreadful misunderstanding. I of course know nothing about the goods you purchase other than what you have told us. You told us that whether a product is produced locally by a local business weighs in to your purchasing decision. That is the sum extent of what I know about your consumer habits. Knowing that, I can say only that you run the overwhelming risk of attaining less consumer satisfaction than otherwise, by standards that I would call rational, because you are giving weight to a consideration which should have no weight.

Just so: if you are a travel lover and refuse to patronize any black-owned taxis, you will be depriving yourself of other rational considerations (perhaps convenience, speed, or price) in favor of an irrational consideration (wishing to not do business with blacks). Likewise, if you are a movie lover and refuse to watch any movies featuring or made by Jews. Or you are a lunch counter owner and refuse to serve blacks. Or you are a computer lover and refuse to buy components from Malaysia. In all these cases, you're just leaving money/satisfaction on the table. It's your right, but most of us would look at it and say it's dumb.


You and the mouse in your pocket that constitute "we" seem to somehow regularly draw inaccurate conclusions and base assumptions off of them....That must keep your life in other countries interesting. You certainly are easily inflammed! I mean no harm nor offense to you. I am using you as a case study to make a philosophical point: protectionism is harmful to prosperity. Free global commerce is beneficial to it. So please just skip the anger and instead give me your best reasons and logic as to why I'm wrong about that, why insisting on "buying local" is a grand and glorious thing. Then I will tear them to pieces! Or admit that you are right.

Either way will be equally fun.

tod evans
06-27-2013, 03:57 PM
I'm not going to bother with a philosophical discussion about purchasing consumer goods.

My position is as I stated.

Assuming that I don't give consideration to surrounding factors when I weigh what product I purchase is at best myopic.

I grant county/state and country 'a' priority in my considerations because, as I said, I believe in supporting local business with my business.

I am not looking to government to protect business in any way, I make the choices I do in spite of government.

In the OP they listed a business name, if I'm in need of a healthcare product and theirs is one of my choices, the country of manufacture will weigh in my purchase decision as it does with most things I purchase.

I'm not trying to convince you to follow my lead, merely stating my behavior.

helmuth_hubener
06-27-2013, 04:18 PM
I'm not going to bother with a philosophical discussion about purchasing consumer goods.

My position is as I stated. Why not? If your position is stupid and self-destructive, wouldn't you want to know it? If your position is right, wouldn't you want to defend it? Don't you want to encourage other people to be right-thinking as well? Or are you happy being right alone while everyone else follows a wrong course of action, leading to disastrous consequences? Shouldn't you try to convince us to stop being wrong? To stop Destroying America, Tearing Apart Communities, and Crushing Mom and Pop?


Assuming that I don't give consideration to surrounding factors when I weigh what product I purchase is at best myopic.I assumed no such thing. To assume such a thing would be.. well, I don't know about myopic; I think it would just be wrong. Incorrect. More to the point: irrelevant to the discussion. So let's agree to agree on this point. Is that possible? Or would you like to insist on continuing to pretend that I disagree?


I grant county/state and country 'a' priority in my considerations because, as I said, I believe in supporting local business with my business. That belief, if taken literally, if actually followed, is economically self-destructive. I have explained why. You have offered no reasons I should think I'm wrong. You have offered no reasons anyone should think you're right. A situation like this, if it persists, is generally a sure-fire way of knowing that you are wrong.

You should adjust your beliefs accordingly.


I am not looking to government to protect business in any way, I make the choices I do in spite of government. And I appreciate that.


In the OP they listed a business name, if I'm in need of a healthcare product and theirs is one of my choices, the country of manufacture will weigh in my purchase decision as it does with most things I purchase. Which is just utterly stupid. Stop being bigoted against foreign companies.


I'm not trying to convince you to follow my lead. Why not? Do you want to see America destroyed? Do you want to see the evil Commies nuke Mom and Pop with their far superior products? Don't you want me and everyone else in this thread to stop being traitors and start Buying Red White and Blue?

tod evans
06-27-2013, 04:24 PM
Why not;

Because I literally hunt-n-peck at the keyboard, it's not worth my time.


As to "Stop being bigoted against foreign companies."

Don't try to tell me what to do or how to spend my money!:mad:

Occam's Banana
06-28-2013, 12:09 AM
This whole argument over "local" vs. "global" is really just buncombe when you get right down to it.

As Leonard Reed demonstrated in his classic essay "I, Pencil" (see below), there are damn few products of any kind that are genuinely & exclusively "local." This is true even when it comes to things like produce at the local farmers' market. Where did the hoe the farmer used to tend his crop come from? And where did the hoe-maker get the wood and the metal? Where is the metal-miner - and how did he get the metal to the metal-worker? (And the same questions go for the logger and the carpenter responsible for the hoe-handle). Where did all the tools needed by all the miners and loggers and such come from? And who provided the transport services for all these things? And where did all the myriad parts of all the vehicles used in all those transport services come from? Etc., etc., etc.

Local? Global? Markets are things of fantastic and fractal complexity. They simply will not fit into such simplistic boxes as "local" and "global" ...

As for the particular reason(s) any particular person has for purchasing (or refusing to purchase) any particular product - there can be no rational argument or debate over this. Such reasons are entirely subjective and cannot be said to be "right" or "wrong" or "better" or "worse." This is one of the most basic and fundamental lessons of praxeology in general and Austrian economics in particular.

Anyway, here is Leonard Reed's essay "I, Pencil": http://mises.org/daily/4736

And here's a video illustration of Reed's thesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYO3tOqDISE

mad cow
06-28-2013, 12:42 AM
Yep.I am a smoker and I have had a Bic lighter in my pocket every single day of my life for many decades.They cost me maybe 1 or 2 minutes of my effort as a manual laborer and I wouldn't cry when I lost one.
I would sometimes pull one from my pocket and look at it and think~I could make that,given a year or two and tens of thousands of dollars.

Thank goodness for specialization and the division of labour.
And thanks for posting an old favorite essay,it is always worth a reread.

helmuth_hubener
06-28-2013, 06:50 AM
This whole argument over "local" vs. "global" is really just buncombe when you get right down to it.The important thing to realize is that it's the "local" part that's buncombe, and the "global" part that is in harmony with and acceptance of reality. As I wrote, the belief in preferentially buying local stuff, if taken literally, if actually followed, is economically self-destructive. Because yeah, as I, Pencil so eloquently points out, there's precious little made in your locality, out of the millions of products available on the market, and most, no all, of those few products are directly dependent on at least several and usually hundreds of products which are not only not local but which come from somewhere overseas.


As for the particular reason(s) any particular person has for purchasing (or refusing to purchase) any particular product - there can be no rational argument or debate over this. Such reasons are entirely subjective and cannot be said to be "right" or "wrong" or "better" or "worse." This is one of the most basic and fundamental lessons of praxeology in general and Austrian economics in particular. Yes, there can be such a rational argument. I understand consumer values are subjective and ordinal. But those values can lead to concrete, discussable results. They lead to objective and cardinal prices, for instance. I may not be able to say it's metaphysically irrational in the special praxeological usage of the word to prefer only doing commerce with one racial group, or one geographical community, but I can certainly point out how I see it as irrational, and why: how it is stupid, and what undesirable consequences it will lead to. The man who jumps off a cliff is acting rationally in a praxeological sense, but am I out of bounds then for pointing out "It would be irrational and idiotic to jump off that cliff"?

Here is the Hall of Shame for this thread. I ought to reply unfavorably every one of you. I simply am shocked and do not understand how you could possibly have such feelings. How did we go so wrong? Where are the ideas of liberty?


Narry a grunion of sympathy from this ol' hillbilly....


Frankly, I think this man is rather pretentious myself. You turned your back on your fellow citizens, and expect us to feel sorry for you being held prisoner in a foreign land that you all thought you could rake in the cash with slave labor?


Aw, that's a shame. [meant sarcastically]


Same thing in New York with the Manufacturers wanting to crack down on knock off brands. They want free market labor, until it hurts THEM. Then, they squeal like stuck pigs. This is why I think Pat Buchanan protectionism is the best choice. I don't see how we will ever have a free market. We know it will work, but it simply will not be allowed. How many times have I posted the solution of free market principles on the local level? Even with that new politician that posted a thread. All I hear are crickets.


I don't feel much sympathy for this fellow. He made his bed; now let him sleep in it.


No sympathy from me at all. Enjoy your slave labor.


Heh. What goes around, comes around.

Right, Mr. Starnes?


Hard to see a "bad" angle to this story.


now he knows how they feel, being locked up in a factory all day


Fuck this guy. Take American jobs away and you are getting what you deserve. Jackass.


What's unlibertarian about disapproval of slave labor outsourcing?

Would one of you guys help me try to understand your point of view? What is it, exactly, that you hate? What is bringing up these feelings? Sympathy for the poor Chinese workers? Nationalism and anger/helplessness at America's decline? An actual belief that literal slavery is common overseas? What?

tod evans
06-28-2013, 08:11 AM
Here is the Hall of Shame for this thread. I ought to reply unfavorably every one of you. I simply am shocked and do not understand how you could possibly have such feelings. How did we go so wrong? Where are the ideas of liberty?

HH,

I'll not be shamed by anyone for my decision to weigh country of manufacture in my purchasing decisions.

Any more than I'd be "shamed" by weighing any other factor I find relevant.

In fact I find it abhorrent that you have the temerity to attempt to dictate proper thought.

Who in the hell do you think you are to even suggest that anyone accept your thought process?

Every person on this board is an individual, and as such, is capable of rational thought.

Just because some peoples thoughts don't dovetail with your worldviews doesn't make them less relevant or worthy of "shame".

Shame on you sir, for claiming the moral high ground and trying to ridicule another persons thoughts and behaviors. This type of attitude is what I expect from prosecutors, judges and dictators, not a free man advocating for others freedom.

helmuth_hubener
06-28-2013, 08:41 AM
In fact I find it abhorrent that you have the temerity to attempt to dictate proper thought. Prove, show, argue, not dictate. It sounds like you have a problem with the idea of "proper thoughts". All thoughts are equally valid, I take it? Who am I to judge, after all. Right?


Who in the hell do you think you are to even suggest that anyone accept your thought process? Right! One thought, another thought... who's to say what's right and wrong? Let's all join hands and just accept the wonderful diversity of thoughts, each equally beautiful in their own special way.


Just because some peoples thoughts don't dovetail with your worldviews doesn't make them less relevant or worthy of "shame". Right! One worldview, another worldview... let's just accept that they're all equally true. No worldview is better than another. No culture is superior to another. Everybody's awesome.


Shame on you sir, for claiming the moral high ground and trying to ridicule another persons thoughts and behaviors. This type of attitude is what I expect from prosecutors, judges and dictators, not a free man advocating for others freedom. I believe in Liberty, not in Moral Relativism. My mind was not utterly turned to soup by the propaganda camps. Some thoughts deserve ridicule. Scorn, in fact. Derision. Contempt would not always be out of place. Hatred may be called for. The same is true for behaviors. Some actions are better than others. Some thoughts are stupider than others. We would do well not to pretend otherwise.

Southron
06-29-2013, 04:25 PM
Why is it all about price?

Do you put more value in supporting local businesses than in the safety of your family? Would you buy a typical shoddy, dangerous, unreliable US-made system or product over the more high-quality versions made with the modern equipment and skilled technical know-how which have all fled elsewhere? How much are you willing to give up for your religious-type aversion to world trade?

You seem prejudiced against U.S-made products. I have generally found the local, and U.S.-made products that I purchase to be superior. Your mileage may vary.

donnay
06-29-2013, 04:55 PM
The important thing to realize is that it's the "local" part that's buncombe, and the "global" part that is in harmony with and acceptance of reality. As I wrote, the belief in preferentially buying local stuff, if taken literally, if actually followed, is economically self-destructive. Because yeah, as I, Pencil so eloquently points out, there's precious little made in your locality, out of the millions of products available on the market, and most, no all, of those few products are directly dependent on at least several and usually hundreds of products which are not only not local but which come from somewhere overseas.

Yes, there can be such a rational argument. I understand consumer values are subjective and ordinal. But those values can lead to concrete, discussable results. They lead to objective and cardinal prices, for instance. I may not be able to say it's metaphysically irrational in the special praxeological usage of the word to prefer only doing commerce with one racial group, or one geographical community, but I can certainly point out how I see it as irrational, and why: how it is stupid, and what undesirable consequences it will lead to. The man who jumps off a cliff is acting rationally in a praxeological sense, but am I out of bounds then for pointing out "It would be irrational and idiotic to jump off that cliff"?

Here is the Hall of Shame for this thread. I ought to reply unfavorably every one of you. I simply am shocked and do not understand how you could possibly have such feelings. How did we go so wrong? Where are the ideas of liberty?

Would one of you guys help me try to understand your point of view? What is it, exactly, that you hate? What is bringing up these feelings? Sympathy for the poor Chinese workers? Nationalism and anger/helplessness at America's decline? An actual belief that literal slavery is common overseas? What?

I hate that a global economy is ultimately going to give us a global government!

helmuth_hubener
06-29-2013, 05:00 PM
I hate that a global economy is ultimately going to give us a global government! So let's end the global economy, in order to prevent a global gov't!

Thank you, donnay. Now I understand where you are coming from, at least. Rifleman, et. al, is this your take on things as well? You want t stop trading with people from other countries so that your government and theirs won't merge?

Southron
06-29-2013, 05:19 PM
So let's end the global economy, in order to prevent a global gov't!

Thank you, donnay. Now I understand where you are coming from, at least. Rifleman, et. al, is this your take on things as well? You want t stop trading with people from other countries so that your government and theirs won't merge?

I think global government is definitely a possibility and where we are headed. I don't oppose foreign trade though. The Constitution allows for tarrifs, which we seem to have abandoned in favor of income and sales taxes for some reason.

Cutlerzzz
06-29-2013, 05:33 PM
So let's end the global economy, in order to prevent a global gov't!

Thank you, donnay. Now I understand where you are coming from, at least. Rifleman, et. al, is this your take on things as well? You want t stop trading with people from other countries so that your government and theirs won't merge?

We need to stop global government by expanding our national government with tariffs, quotas, duties, and immigration restrictions. Preferably, we destroy all roads and railroads to Canada and Mexico as well as destroy all cargo planes and ships as well.

helmuth_hubener
06-30-2013, 09:09 AM
The Constitution allows for tariffs, which we seem to have abandoned in favor of income and sales taxes for some reason. Tariffs add about $5,000 to the price of each Japanese car (it shows just how superior the Japanese are that they still outcompete the useless American bumblers). Tariffs increase the price of a variety of food items astronomically 50%, 100%, and more. Steel tariffs are alive and well as ever.

Here, I picked some other products at random:

Incoming milk is taxed at 43 cents/liter, which at the current ave. price of $3.44/gal, is a 47% tariff.
Artichokes are taxed at 16%.
Vises, clamps and the like, and base metal parts thereof: 5%.
Lightbulbs are free. Unless they're from the wrong country, then they get taxed at 20%.
Tulip bulbs are 89 cents per thousand.

All these numbers are from this government site: http://dataweb.usitc.gov/scripts/tariff_current.asp

Tariffs are alive and well, Rifleman my friend. You can breathe easy again. The federal government is doing at least one thing you love and approve of. Also, there are no federal sales taxes, though there are income taxes. So they're one-for-two on those fronts, as well. :)

Southron
06-30-2013, 09:48 AM
Tariffs add about $5,000 to the price of each Japanese car (it shows just how superior the Japanese are that they still outcompete the useless American bumblers).

The Japanese are much much economically nationalist than Americans. The 2.5% tariff isn't really that significant. They practically subsidize R&D for their automakers through their crazy inspection process called Shaken. Many Japanese buy new cars every few years to avoid paying the significant inspection fees for older cars. Inspectors are particularly tough on imported American cars.

I realize that there is no national sales tax, but in most tax reform discussions someone brings it up. I would rather see income taxes eliminated and a flat base tariff instituted if we can ever get this government down to size.

Henry Rogue
06-30-2013, 10:06 AM
In the big picture, china is closer to totalitarianism on the Freedom scale. The only winners in this story are those who operate the government. Sad situation all the way around.

BAllen
07-01-2013, 02:09 PM
Tariffs add about $5,000 to the price of each Japanese car (it shows just how superior the Japanese are that they still outcompete the useless American bumblers). Tariffs increase the price of a variety of food items astronomically 50%, 100%, and more. Steel tariffs are alive and well as ever.

Here, I picked some other products at random:

Incoming milk is taxed at 43 cents/liter, which at the current ave. price of $3.44/gal, is a 47% tariff.
Artichokes are taxed at 16%.
Vises, clamps and the like, and base metal parts thereof: 5%.
Lightbulbs are free. Unless they're from the wrong country, then they get taxed at 20%.
Tulip bulbs are 89 cents per thousand.

All these numbers are from this government site: http://dataweb.usitc.gov/scripts/tariff_current.asp

Tariffs are alive and well, Rifleman my friend. You can breathe easy again. The federal government is doing at least one thing you love and approve of. Also, there are no federal sales taxes, though there are income taxes. So they're one-for-two on those fronts, as well. :)

That is not true. Ford makes a better car at a better price than any of the jap car makers. Tell a lie long enough, there will be suckers that believe it.

helmuth_hubener
07-02-2013, 07:13 AM
That is not true. Ford makes a better car at a better price than any of the jap car makers. Tell a lie long enough, there will be suckers that believe it. Ha, ha. ha! :D

helmuth_hubener
07-02-2013, 07:30 AM
The 2.5% tariff isn't really that significant. And you want tariffs to be significant. So when you say "we seem to have abandoned" tariffs, having a tariff at "only" 2.5% (for something, I presume... I don't know what you think it's at 2.5% for -- the tariff for most products is much, much higher, and certainly the car tariff is much, much higher) is what you're talking about? 2.5% is way too low, in your mind?

Of course, the American economy is becoming more and more irrelevant. So in your dream scenario of 10% or 20% or 30% American tariffs, or whatever confiscatory rate you think would usher in a new age of prosperity, it's important for you to understand that in that scenario world trade would not be fundamentally altered. The manufacturing base of the world would continue to be in China. It wouldn't just magically come back simply because American politicians and some economically foolish, duped Americans wanted to cut themselves off from world trade. Nope. All that will happen is that people will pay a much higher price for goods in America, and some goods will become essentially unobtainable in America because they will no longer be marketable there at a profit. But there's a lot of countries in the world, now, Rifleman my friend. Not all trade needs to involve exporting American boob-beloved products to American boobs. The whole world doesn't revolve around you and yours, not any more. Your home state is no longer the Big Boy on the block. It's a fading star. Have your political goons cut you off, you're only hurting yourself. You're not going to shut down the Chinese factories. And you're sure as spit not going to bring any of them back to North Carolina.

The rest of the world is going to continue buying from China, regardless of America's embarrassing and ridiculous love affair with tariffs.

donnay
07-02-2013, 09:10 AM
And you want tariffs to be significant. So when you say "we seem to have abandoned" tariffs, having a tariff at "only" 2.5% (for something, I presume... I don't know what you think it's at 2.5% for -- the tariff for most products is much, much higher, and certainly the car tariff is much, much higher) is what you're talking about? 2.5% is way too low, in your mind?

Of course, the American economy is becoming more and more irrelevant. So in your dream scenario of 10% or 20% or 30% American tariffs, or whatever confiscatory rate you think would usher in a new age of prosperity, it's important for you to understand that in that scenario world trade would not be fundamentally altered. The manufacturing base of the world would continue to be in China. It wouldn't just magically come back simply because American politicians and some economically foolish, duped Americans wanted to cut themselves off from world trade. Nope. All that will happen is that people will pay a much higher price for goods in America, and some goods will become essentially unobtainable in America because they will no longer be marketable there at a profit. But there's a lot of countries in the world, now, Rifleman my friend. Not all trade needs to involve exporting American boob-beloved products to American boobs. The whole world doesn't revolve around you and yours, not any more. Your home state is no longer the Big Boy on the block. It's a fading star. Have your political goons cut you off, you're only hurting yourself. You're not going to shut down the Chinese factories. And you're sure as spit not going to bring any of them back to North Carolina.

The rest of the world is going to continue buying from China, regardless of America's embarrassing and ridiculous love affair with tariffs.


China's economy has boomed because of politics--not because of a free market. They too, are having some economic troubles now. When the PTB want to shut it all down, they will--make no mistakes about it. That is the part you just don't understand--this is all done by design. It is for control over every aspect of the people's lives around the globe. Your love affair with some utopian global society is all a façade.

When I buy local it keeps our economy booming in my local area. Farmers and ranchers can keep their production going when the locals buy their goods--not to mention the health impact it has on people's health when you do it that way. When Farmers rely on the nasty GMO's, not only are they beholden to the company that makes the genetically engineered garbage, but the crops the following years will not yield again from the frankenseeds. Most of the farmers, in my area, use heirloom seeds. It gives me peace of mind to know that the people in my area get it. It's the small parts that people have to discipline themselves to do. Education is key. It is doable and it has been done for hundreds of years prior to the mad scientists who think they know what is best for everyone, they don't. Independence is a wonderful thing. Bartering also gives you independence, but, of course the PTB don't like that one bit--in most places it is outlawed. All done by design.

helmuth_hubener
07-02-2013, 09:34 AM
China's economy has boomed because of politics--not because of a free market. China has more liberty for people who want to manufacture things than America. That's it. That's why the manufacturing base of the world moved there. It's the same reason the base was ever in America in the first place: Liberty. Politicians have the ability to blow things up and slaughter people. They don't have the capacity to build things. They don't have the ability to create. Politicians did not build a complex and beautiful global supply chain to bounteously provide manufactured goods to regular people all around the world as part of some dastardly plot to Do Something Evil. Businessmen did that. Productive people did that. They did it in the best way they could figure out how, and part of that was booking it out of Dodge and setting up in freer market environs. Not free, just freer. We work with what we've got. And even in the face of insurmountable odds, insatiable states, and tyranny blanketing the globe, businessmen have still managed to flood the world with a wealth of useful and complex products. We are eradicating poverty. The entire nation of China is becoming rich, as is India. Two or three billion people, rising out of abject poverty and into leisure and wealth. Politics didn't do that. Politics can't do that. Liberalization did that. That is: the people there finally got some freedom and private property rights.


They too, are having some economic troubles now. When the PTB want to shut it all down, they will--make no mistakes about it. That is the part you just don't understand--this is all done by design. It is for control over every aspect of the people's lives around the globe. Your love affair with some utopian global society is all a façade. This "utopian global society" is actually churning out product. Year after year. Actually working. Actually producing a tremendous, outrageous, unheard-of output of wealth. Utopian? How about proven. Effective. Practical. Life-saving.

Voluntary trade, among voluntary market actors, spread across the globe, carving out niches of freedom as best they can under their various regimes -- it works.


When I buy local it keeps our economy booming in my local area. No, it just eats up some of the stuff your neighbors have produced. Consumption just consumes. Production is what makes an economy boom. Production is the key. Any schmuck can consume.

BAllen
07-02-2013, 09:39 AM
And you want tariffs to be significant. So when you say "we seem to have abandoned" tariffs, having a tariff at "only" 2.5% (for something, I presume... I don't know what you think it's at 2.5% for -- the tariff for most products is much, much higher, and certainly the car tariff is much, much higher) is what you're talking about? 2.5% is way too low, in your mind?

Of course, the American economy is becoming more and more irrelevant. So in your dream scenario of 10% or 20% or 30% American tariffs, or whatever confiscatory rate you think would usher in a new age of prosperity, it's important for you to understand that in that scenario world trade would not be fundamentally altered. The manufacturing base of the world would continue to be in China. It wouldn't just magically come back simply because American politicians and some economically foolish, duped Americans wanted to cut themselves off from world trade. Nope. All that will happen is that people will pay a much higher price for goods in America, and some goods will become essentially unobtainable in America because they will no longer be marketable there at a profit. But there's a lot of countries in the world, now, Rifleman my friend. Not all trade needs to involve exporting American boob-beloved products to American boobs. The whole world doesn't revolve around you and yours, not any more. Your home state is no longer the Big Boy on the block. It's a fading star. Have your political goons cut you off, you're only hurting yourself. You're not going to shut down the Chinese factories. And you're sure as spit not going to bring any of them back to North Carolina.

The rest of the world is going to continue buying from China, regardless of America's embarrassing and ridiculous love affair with tariffs.

You really are delusional. You should get to a psychiatrist as soon as possible.

helmuth_hubener
07-02-2013, 09:47 AM
You really are delusional. You should get to a psychiatrist as soon as possible. Thank you, sir. Which part of the view I presented is delusional? Or are there multiple parts which are? I like to correct myself wherever I am wrong, and certainly doubly so when I'm so wrong as to be delusional.

Looking forward to your reply. Thanks again!

BAllen
07-02-2013, 09:52 AM
Thank you, sir. Which part of the view I presented is delusional? Or are there multiple parts which are? I like to correct myself wherever I am wrong, and certainly doubly so when I'm so wrong as to be delusional.

Looking forward to your reply. Thanks again!

Well, since you're delusional you couldn't see it anyway.

helmuth_hubener
07-02-2013, 09:55 AM
Well, since you're delusional you couldn't see it anyway. It is disappointing that all the people in this thread with an opposing viewpoint to my own are so consistently and completely unwilling/unable to defend it.

Maybe I need to start sock-puppeting myself. What should I call him? AmericaFirst? USAUSA?

BAllen
07-02-2013, 09:58 AM
It is disappointing that all the people in this thread with an opposing viewpoint to my own are so consistently and completely unwilling/unable to defend it.

Maybe I need to start sock-puppeting myself. What should I call him? AmericaFirst? USAUSA?

Delusional people wearing blinders? Yeah, that would work.

fr33
07-03-2013, 12:39 AM
Calling all forum members who themselves will pick the crops or will even be happy with their children doing the harvesting.

I don't expect to find one but won't be surprised.

Southron
07-03-2013, 09:44 PM
Calling all forum members who themselves will pick the crops or will even be happy with their children doing the harvesting.

I don't expect to find one but won't be surprised.

The question most people have is: how much does it pay?

donnay
07-03-2013, 09:48 PM
Calling all forum members who themselves will pick the crops or will even be happy with their children doing the harvesting.

I don't expect to find one but won't be surprised.


I do and my children do-- we have no problem with a little hard work--it's good for the soul.

Brian4Liberty
07-03-2013, 10:06 PM
Calling all forum members who themselves will pick the crops or will even be happy with their children doing the harvesting.

I don't expect to find one but won't be surprised.

I did it for a couple of hours yesterday.

Older folks and foreigners from rural areas will talk with fond memories of harvest time, and how everyone pitched in, especially the young people. They worked hard, and then had harvest festivals. It was considered a great time. No perpetual "picking" class existed.

But these people were not from the old South, or the third world. One might wonder if this constant need for a lower class that does the tedious manual labor does not derive from former slave areas and areas where a strict caste system existed.

helmuth_hubener
07-18-2013, 03:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y856OjQDLwg

Might I ask: would a Chinese person who decides to "buy local" and only buy stuff with a Made in China label be, in fact, buying local and cutting himself off from global trade?

Of course not! The T-shirt was assembled in China, but with German machinery, American management know-how, Egyptian cotton, German dyes and chemicals, etc. etc. As Sudhoy teaches, Made in China really means Made by the World!