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nbruno322
06-23-2013, 08:48 AM
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), who has publicly praised NSA leaker Edward Snowden for his actions, warned Snowden Sunday not to cozy up to the Russian or Chinese governments--or any governments that are "perceived still as enemies of ours."

"I do think, for Mr. Snowden, if he cozies up to the Russian government, it will be nothing but bad for his name in history," Paul said on CNN's State of the Union. "If he goes to an independent third country like Iceland and if he refuses to talk to any sort of formal government about this, I think there's a chance that he'll be seen as an advocate of privacy.

Paul said that ultimately history will be the judge of Snowden's legacy, suggesting that he will likely be remembered as a foil to intelligence chief James Clapper, who Paul said lied in front of Congress when he testified that the government was not collecting any personal data on Americans.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/sen-paul-to-snowden-dont-cozy-up-to

FrankRep
06-23-2013, 10:03 AM
Thank you, Rand Paul. Snowden going to Russia is a PR and Political disaster.


Snowden has ticket to Cuba, may go to Venezuela: Russian reports (http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-ticket-cuba-may-venezuela-russian-reports-094720633.html)
Reuters | 6/23/2013


Former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden is booked on a flight from Moscow to Cuba on Monday, Russian news agencies Interfax and Itar-Tass cited sources at Russian airline Aeroflot as saying on Sunday.

Itar-Tass cited its source as saying Snowden would fly from Havana to the Venezuelan capital, Caracas.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said it was looking into the situation and confirmed Snowden may be planning to travel through Moscow as a transit passenger en route to another destination.


Seriously, Snowden? You're going to hit up all the Communist countries?

PR Disaster!!

Uriel999
06-23-2013, 10:08 AM
It may be bad pr but it makes sense. Russia will let him travel through because they get to piss off the USA, and Snowden is at least temporarily safe

Origanalist
06-23-2013, 10:10 AM
Yeah, I think that's pretty good advice from Rand. My only concern is will Iceland be able to withstand the pressure from Washington?

Warlord
06-23-2013, 10:11 AM
Thank you, Rand Paul. Snowden going to Russia is a PR and Political disaster.


Snowden has ticket to Cuba, may go to Venezuela: Russian reports (http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-ticket-cuba-may-venezuela-russian-reports-094720633.html)
Reuters | 6/23/2013

Former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden is booked on a flight from Moscow to Cuba on Monday, Russian news agencies Interfax and Itar-Tass cited sources at Russian airline Aeroflot as saying on Sunday.

Itar-Tass cited its source as saying Snowden would fly from Havana to the Venezuelan capital, Caracas.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said it was looking into the situation and confirmed Snowden may be planning to travel through Moscow as a transit passenger en route to another destination.



Seriously, Snowden? You're going to hit up all the Communist countries?

PR Disaster!!

He's trying to get to safety the fastest way possible:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?419042-Breaking-Edward-Snowden-has-left-Hong-Kong-and-is-on-way-to-Moscow&p=5090407&viewfull=1#post5090407

He doesn't want to hang around too long in one country waitng for connecting flights and needs to stay one step ahead of the hapless bureaucrats in Washington.

pcosmar
06-23-2013, 10:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XacvydVrhuI

Set out runnin but I take my time,

Uriel999
06-23-2013, 10:21 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XacvydVrhuI

Set out runnin but I take my time,

Great song and once again makes sense

thoughtomator
06-23-2013, 10:39 AM
Looks like it's Ecuador again. Destabilizing operations are, I'm sure, already in the works.

TaftFan
06-23-2013, 12:57 PM
Good idea. Iceland or a country like it.

Now everyone thinks he is giving information to China and Russia, which based on his actions isn't too off base.

twomp
06-23-2013, 01:00 PM
Thank you, Rand Paul. Snowden going to Russia is a PR and Political disaster.


Snowden has ticket to Cuba, may go to Venezuela: Russian reports (http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-ticket-cuba-may-venezuela-russian-reports-094720633.html)
Reuters | 6/23/2013


Former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden is booked on a flight from Moscow to Cuba on Monday, Russian news agencies Interfax and Itar-Tass cited sources at Russian airline Aeroflot as saying on Sunday.

Itar-Tass cited its source as saying Snowden would fly from Havana to the Venezuelan capital, Caracas.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said it was looking into the situation and confirmed Snowden may be planning to travel through Moscow as a transit passenger en route to another destination.


Seriously, Snowden? You're going to hit up all the Communist countries?

PR Disaster!!

LOL bad PR? He isn't running for office. How about you provide us with details on how you would have done it.

cajuncocoa
06-23-2013, 01:01 PM
I agree with Rand here.

bolil
06-23-2013, 02:18 PM
I agree with Rand here.

Me too. He should have gone the "they only want to use you" route, not the "enemies of our government route" though. If Iceland doesn't give him asylum I hope he goes to Russia.

This possibility is the result of tyranny at home, this should never be forgotten.

FrankRep
06-23-2013, 02:23 PM
LOL bad PR? He isn't running for office. How about you provide us with details on how you would have done it.

Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

Anti Federalist
06-23-2013, 02:30 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

Traitor to whom?

Demigod
06-23-2013, 02:32 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

The end of the war decides who was the traitor and who was the patriot.He gave all the information and proof he could,the American people did not see anything that wrong in it so they would rise up and change it.

He lost the gambit and is now for the time period definitely a traitor.All he should be concerned is to stay alive.The only problem he has if whether even Americans would react if he got killed.

Carlybee
06-23-2013, 02:34 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.


The NSA is the traitor against the American people and anyone supporting them is supporting Tyranny. That needs to be said over and over from the rooftops. There's your PR.

69360
06-23-2013, 02:37 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

He's both, but he did the right thing and I would have done the same.

HOLLYWOOD
06-23-2013, 02:39 PM
CNN hosted Congressman Peter King (R-NY) later on, by phone, after Rands interview... King attacked Rand Paul. Of course no one refuted and CNN pushed the state's propaganda with King.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), who has publicly praised NSA leaker Edward Snowden for his actions, warned Snowden Sunday not to cozy up to the Russian or Chinese governments--or any governments that are "perceived still as enemies of ours."

"I do think, for Mr. Snowden, if he cozies up to the Russian government, it will be nothing but bad for his name in history," Paul said on CNN's State of the Union. "If he goes to an independent third country like Iceland and if he refuses to talk to any sort of formal government about this, I think there's a chance that he'll be seen as an advocate of privacy.

Paul said that ultimately history will be the judge of Snowden's legacy, suggesting that he will likely be remembered as a foil to intelligence chief James Clapper, who Paul said lied in front of Congress when he testified that the government was not collecting any personal data on Americans.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/sen-paul-to-snowden-dont-cozy-up-to

Occam's Banana
06-23-2013, 03:27 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

If captured, the man faces being held completely incommunicado for highly secret, kangaroo court proceedings which will almost certainly result in his imprisonment for the remainder of his natural life. And that's likely to be close to the very best he can hope for. I do not even want to contemplate what might be the worst that could realistically be expected to happen to him ...

Yet apparently, he's supposed to choose his itinerary on the basis of what Letterman viewers and Gallup pollees might approve - rather than on the basis of what is most likely to keep him out of the clutches of the U.S. government.

Please excuse me while I :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

kcchiefs6465
06-23-2013, 03:41 PM
Good idea. Iceland or a country like it.

Now everyone thinks he is giving information to China and Russia, which based on his actions isn't too off base.
Those are serious charges. Do you have any proof of this aside from USG statements or the fact that he traveled through those two countries? (apparently traveled, I'd add)

Or are you of the belief that him leaking the known fact that the USG is involved in offensive cyber attacks the world over while condemning nations for the same was traitorous?

In that sense, he didn't give the information to China and Russia. (promoting the elite narrative of his guilt in the espionage case against him) He gave the information to the world. A heroic and commendable action. Perhaps what really needs be asked is not whether or not he has given Chinese officials details of specific offensive cyber attacks by why we are engaged in these attacks in the first place. Instead of asking whether he is a spy, why aren't we asking why the USG feels it has authority to spy on tens of millions of Americans? And frankly this is about internet privacy, not just American internet privacy. 1984 was a book not a manual. The question that needs posed is whether or not you want to live in a literal surveillance/police state instead of the quasi-suveillance/police state we have now. Do you?

TaftFan
06-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Those are serious charges. Do you have any proof of this aside from USG statements or the fact that he traveled through those two countries? (apparently traveled, I'd add)

Or are you of the belief that him leaking the known fact that the USG is involved in offensive cyber attacks the world over while condemning nations for the same was traitorous?

In that sense, he didn't give the information to China and Russia. (promoting the elite narrative of his guilt in the espionage case against him) He gave the information to the world. A heroic and commendable action. Perhaps what really needs be asked is not whether or not he has given Chinese officials details of specific offensive cyber attacks by why we are engaged in these attacks in the first place. Instead of asking whether he is a spy, why aren't we asking why the USG feels it has authority to spy on tens of millions of Americans? And frankly this is about internet privacy, not just American internet privacy. 1984 was a book not a manual. The question that needs posed is whether or not you want to live in a literal surveillance/police state instead of the quasi-suveillance/police state we have now. Do you?

Going to Russia and China, our geopolitical enemies, assists in charges that he may be a traitor. Not because he broke a law, but because now people think he is making the rounds of handing information to enemies.

I never said he did do such a thing, I said he is making it look that way by his own choices.

If I was a whistleblower, I would be heading for a small neutral country that offers asylum. Rand suggested Iceland as a possibility.

CPUd
06-23-2013, 03:45 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

He doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other.

Thor
06-23-2013, 04:02 PM
Going to Russia and China, our geopolitical enemies, assists in charges that he may be a traitor. Not because he broke a law, but because now people think he is making the rounds of handing information to enemies.

I never said he did do such a thing, I said he is making it look that way by his own choices.

If I was a whistleblower, I would be heading for a small neutral country that offers asylum. Rand suggested Iceland as a possibility.

And how would you travel to / head for Iceland or said small neutral country? If you could not go direct, would you land on soil of a country that is US friendly and hope they don't turn you over? Or would you go via a route that you knew you were safe from being thrown to the wolves? (Why has Assange stayed inside the Ecuadorian Embassy in London for the last year? Perhaps England would turn him over to the USA, immediately.)

And as neutral as Iceland might be, do they have the ability to not crack under pressure from the 8,000 lbs. gorilla?

You only have so many options when trying to travel and avoid capture from the tentacles of the US. Hong Kong to Moscow was over Russian air space, fairly safe. Moscow to Cuba to Ecuador opens some vulnerability, if that is where he goes, and how he goes. Sure hope there isn't an "in-air malfunction" over the open ocean....

Of course the talking heads will use this as a way to say "see, told ya", but what are the logical and safe options?

Rudeman
06-23-2013, 04:06 PM
I know it's easier said than done, but Rand is right in that going to countries like China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela makes it easier for the US government to paint him as a traitor.

pacelli
06-23-2013, 04:07 PM
The government has lost all credibility, save for a couple voices that are a part of it. Their bullshit media repeaters/reporters are similarly discredited.

kcchiefs6465
06-23-2013, 04:16 PM
Going to Russia and China, our geopolitical enemies, assists in charges that he may be a traitor. Not because he broke a law, but because now people think he is making the rounds of handing information to enemies.

I never said he did do such a thing, I said he is making it look that way by his own choices.

If I was a whistleblower, I would be heading for a small neutral country that offers asylum. Rand suggested Iceland as a possibility.
He explained his reason for going to Hong Kong in that it was a country he felt could stand up to the initial USG pressure. When he came forward had he been in another country he very well may have been extradited back to the US before the true scope and details were understood. Before he was convicted in the court of public official opinion, which from what I understand, helps persuade a country to grant you asylum. Russia is also not likely to hand him over so if there was a flight from there to Iceland with no more layovers, it would be a pretty safe bet.

Wikileaks has apparently said he is planning on seeking asylum in Ecuador. I don't know how exactly that plan is going to work out but I wish him the best. I'd like to think that the American people are smart enough to realize that if his plans were to sell or give secrets to our enemies he wouldn't have announced himself to the world. That isn't the route one would take. When FOX asked Ron Paul if he was sure Snowden wasn't a spy he said "Absolutely" and gave a very logical answer as to why.

HOLLYWOOD
06-23-2013, 04:31 PM
I know it's easier said than done, but Rand is right in that going to countries like China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela makes it easier for the US government to paint him as a traitor.Very True... then again, maybe Snowden, Greenwald, Assange, etc know what countries to avoid. In the past 10 years the US State Department/Washington DC has been strong-arming smaller, weaker, timid, peaceful countries to comply with everything Uncle Dictator demands or face having your government/country turned into sanctions, turmoil, overthrown, etc.

What do you when you're a tiny nation against the worlds Fascist Imperial empire that can force you to accept a bribery package or be overthrown? The illusion of choice in today's world.

kahless
06-23-2013, 05:32 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

It does not matter if you have no trust in the lawless US government and therefore have no plans on returning. What would matter most to you at this point? Saving your own ass while exposing the crimes of the US government or seeking a US favorable jurisdiction where you could be extradited?

Seeking a US favorable jurisdiction means you are possibly risking the rest of your life in jail or worse being disappeared, tortured, being put in solitary naked for a year like Manning or possibly executed at the hands of the US government.

What would you do?

otherone
06-23-2013, 05:41 PM
Whether Snowden is painted a hero or traitor is immaterial. The leaks need to remain open. If he can successfully gain asylum other whistle-blowers may be emboldened.

klamath
06-23-2013, 05:46 PM
And how would you travel to / head for Iceland or said small neutral country? If you could not go direct, would you land on soil of a country that is US friendly and hope they don't turn you over? Or would you go via a route that you knew you were safe from being thrown to the wolves? (Why has Assange stayed inside the Ecuadorian Embassy in London for the last year? Perhaps England would turn him over to the USA, immediately.)

And as neutral as Iceland might be, do they have the ability to not crack under pressure from the 8,000 lbs. gorilla?

You only have so many options when trying to travel and avoid capture from the tentacles of the US. Hong Kong to Moscow was over Russian air space, fairly safe. Moscow to Cuba to Ecuador opens some vulnerability, if that is where he goes, and how he goes. Sure hope there isn't an "in-air malfunction" over the open ocean....

Of course the talking heads will use this as a way to say "see, told ya", but what are the logical and safe options?
This is pretty much it. He doesn't have a whole lot of travel options with out crossing the airspace of a country that will work with the US gov.

Bastiat's The Law
06-23-2013, 07:53 PM
Yeah, I think that's pretty good advice from Rand. My only concern is will Iceland be able to withstand the pressure from Washington?
They like giving the finger to other countries. They took in Bobby Fischer. Obviously Snowden is much higher profile so its anyone's guess. Would Snowden be safe in Switzerland?

madengr
06-23-2013, 07:59 PM
No, Switzerland opened it's banking records to the US fedgov.

RonPaulMall
06-23-2013, 08:02 PM
They like giving the finger to other countries. They took in Bobby Fischer. Obviously Snowden is much higher profile so its anyone's guess. Would Snowden be safe in Switzerland?

Swiss Banks aren't even safe in Switzerland. As for Iceland, yeah, they took Bobby Fischer, but Bobby Fischer is a national hero in Iceland. Snowden is just some random computer geek. Snowden has made clear on multiple occasions that Iceland would be his first choice. The problem is Iceland just swore in a Neocon leaning PM who wants to strengthen ties with the US and so they aren't keen on granting him asylum. If Iceland put an offer of asylum and citizenship on the table, I have no doubt Snowden would be on the first plane there. But they haven't, so he's got to make other arrangements. Rand's comments were unfair because they imply Snowden has some kind of choice in where he goes. Iceland is only an option for him if Iceland agrees to accept him. If Rand wants Snowden to go to Iceland, Rand should be lobbying the Icelandic government to grant him asylum.

ItsTime
06-23-2013, 08:09 PM
Traitor to whom?

Loyalists....

randpaul2016
06-23-2013, 09:32 PM
still Ecuador?

CPUd
06-24-2013, 01:23 AM
He was staying overnight in a capsule hotel at the terminal in Moscow. At least one of the people traveling with him has a Russian visa, but they said Snowden would not be allowed to enter Russia, even in a diplomatic vehicle.



(CNN) -- Washington is urging Moscow to send Edward Snowden back to the United States instead of letting him fly to Ecuador for asylum.

Snowden, a computer contractor who exposed details of secret U.S. surveillance programs, is a man on the run.

After being holed up in Hong Kong for weeks, he took a flight to Moscow on Sunday, with help from the anti-secrecy group WikiLeaks.

His next destination is believed to be Ecuador.

"We expect the Russian government to look at all options available to expel Mr. Snowden back to the U.S. to face justice for the crimes with which he is charged," U.S. National Security Council spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden said early Monday.

She cited "intensified cooperation" between Washington and Moscow after the Boston Marathon bombings and "our history of working with Russia on law enforcement matters -- including returning numerous high level criminals back to Russia at the request of the Russian government."

Snowden left Hong Kong after Washington sought his extradition on espionage charges, according to WikiLeaks, which facilitates the publication of classified information.

"He is bound for the Republic of Ecuador via a safe route for the purposes of asylum and is being escorted by diplomats and legal advisers from WikiLeaks," the group said.

...


http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/24/politics/nsa-leak/index.html

tangent4ronpaul
06-24-2013, 01:32 AM
I suspect he just became a pea under a cup, in a wilderness of cups.

-t

Mani
06-24-2013, 02:14 AM
If the US government wants your ASS, their are not a lot of places you can fly to without being handed over immediately...


And HK to Ecuador has no direct flight, most Central and South American countries are a bit tough to get to direct from HK.

Normally there's a stop in Miami or UK or some other US city stop. Tokyo? Not sure, but the people I know that travel to Central/South America from Asia take a couple stop overs.

I think they carefully plotted this route as the second he would land in UK or any US country he's fucked. If he needs to stop in 2-3 countries to get to his final destination, I truly think it's only because that's the ONLY route he can attempt without having a passport or the risk of being handed over immediately. I don't think it's to speak with ANY of the country leaders, logic doesn't dictate that at all.


I just tried to book a flight from HKG (Hong Kong) to UIO (Ecuador Airport).

Not so easy. One time I had to stop in Amsterdam and then Lima, peru. Another flight was Tokyo (With their battles with China they will do ANYTHING to keep perfect ties with US). And Tokyo to George Bush Airport. (Good luck with that)....Others stop in JFK or LAX or various NJ airports...

Not only that....But some of those are UNITED airlines or other US carriers. Once he's on a US plane, couldn't a US pilot be influenced to land in US friendly territory?

Talk about TRULY having LIMITED options. He needs to fly on an aircraft that won't immediately bow to any instructions to go somewhere else, and has to pick routes where he won't be handed over, the SECOND he gets off the plane.

Very very limited options.

I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with meeting enemies about spy shit, just trying to find the only route possible.

Varin
06-24-2013, 02:22 AM
He should have tried a Western European country and claimed he risked the death penalty or torture (see Manning). Most countries also denies extradition for "political crimes" unless the crime is excepted in international conventions or treaties, espionage generally is not.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 02:35 AM
The United States better pray he gets to Ecuador. Because Putin will not be able to give up this little treasure trove of information.
The more the United States resists, the worse it gets for them.
Does the U.S. really want Snowden stuck in a Russian airport for two weeks, while the FSB talks to him and takes a look at his files?
He may be an international dis-info agent, and they can figure that out after a while, but he might be the real deal too.
Maybe he'll only talk to the Russian Press, while Putin snickers.

and to heap on embarrassment, he may not even be in Russia. Another blow to media credibility.

This feels like it could be the light side of the black hand.

Truth, like glory, purges and weakens the undead. They are all scared by what he knows and is telling. He said he can not be stopped, and I believe it. I just hope he was skeptical enough to not even trust wiki-leaks with his information, even though he has trusted them with his life.

His life is worth every mother fucker in congress and the executive x10. If it means Russia knowing every little dark secret about the United States, so be it. Because we need to know about all that secret torture too, and that has to end, too. And doing it to Manning was wrong too.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 02:48 AM
Believe me, Snowden would much, much rather give ALL secrets to Russia, and get a hot Russian girlfriend, maybe wife, than be turned over to the hands of the tortuous Americans.

Putin will lay this bargain before him. He might even have a nice power point of what American torture victims look or act like once they have been psychologically destroyed.

And Snowden would be a fool to deny for the sake of the United States. The tortuous United States.

Karma is a bitch, sometimes.

The United States will not get Snowden. The fate of Israel hinges upon it. Classic check mate.

Then maybe Americans can analyze the Manning trial, and Guantanamo, and figure out why nobody likes them anymore.

Mani
06-24-2013, 02:53 AM
Believe me, Snowden would much, much rather give ALL secrets to Russia, and get a hot Russian girlfriend, maybe wife, than be turned over to the hands of the tortuous Americans.

Putin will lay this bargain before him. He might even have a nice power point of what American torture victims look or act like once they have been psychologically destroyed.

And Snowden would be a fool to deny for the sake of the United States. The tortuous United States.

Karma is a bitch, sometimes.

The United States will not get Snowden. The fate of Israel hinges upon it. Classic check mate.

Then maybe Americans can analyze the Manning trial, and Guantanamo, and figure out why nobody likes them anymore.


THey hate us because we are free...They are jealous of us...That's all. /sarc

UWDude
06-24-2013, 02:59 AM
Hello,

This is Edward Snowden, and today, on RT's Snowden's Secrets we are going to talk about, how much does the Pentagon spend on Propaganda, and what main message guidelines were set by the CIA? Just foreign enemies? Let's have a look!

...[cue music]


Putin can not resist this propaganda victory.

nobody's_hero
06-24-2013, 07:09 AM
Maybe a naïve question but . . .

What would Snowden tell the Russians anyway? That the American government has been spying on American citizens? And they would care? And this would be treason?

69360
06-24-2013, 07:11 AM
Maybe a naïve question but . . .

What would Snowden tell the Russians anyway? That the American government has been spying on American citizens? And they would care? And this would be treason?

Giving classified info to a foreign government is treason.

A. Havnes
06-24-2013, 07:55 AM
The end of the war decides who was the traitor and who was the patriot.He gave all the information and proof he could,the American people did not see anything that wrong in it so they would rise up and change it.

He lost the gambit and is now for the time period definitely a traitor.All he should be concerned is to stay alive.The only problem he has if whether even Americans would react if he got killed.

They would. I'm sure quite a few of them would take to the streets to chant: USA! USA!

Nomzta
06-24-2013, 09:31 AM
The United States will not get Snowden. The fate of Israel hinges upon it. Classic check mate.


What does Israel have to do with any of it?

kcchiefs6465
06-24-2013, 09:35 AM
What does Israel have to do with any of it?
This thread? Aside from Megaphone, nothing.

kcchiefs6465
06-24-2013, 09:41 AM
Believe me, Snowden would much, much rather give ALL secrets to Russia, and get a hot Russian girlfriend, maybe wife, than be turned over to the hands of the tortuous Americans.

Putin will lay this bargain before him. He might even have a nice power point of what American torture victims look or act like once they have been psychologically destroyed.

And Snowden would be a fool to deny for the sake of the United States. The tortuous United States.

Karma is a bitch, sometimes.

The United States will not get Snowden. The fate of Israel hinges upon it. Classic check mate.

Then maybe Americans can analyze the Manning trial, and Guantanamo, and figure out why nobody likes them anymore.
You are perpetuating the propaganda that Snowden is working with a foreign government. When a large enough number of people believe that, Snowden's fate will be especially miserable. (unless of course it's death) If Snowden wanted to be a spy for the Russian government he wouldn't have gone on international news and said, "Look at me, I'm the one who leaked this." He wouldn't have contacted Greenwald and the American people (some) would still not know they are being spied on.

Russia very well may not have let him leave. He may be used as a political bargaining chip, may be tortured by them, or may be given to a US proxy for whatever they have in store.

Quit calling him a traitor.

tod evans
06-24-2013, 09:43 AM
Well said KC!

puppetmaster
06-24-2013, 10:03 AM
Jeesh. The Russians said they wouldn't let him out of airport....not cozy IMO.

Matthew5
06-24-2013, 10:20 AM
Russia and china are perceived as enemies? We buy an awful lot of stuff from our enemy (China).

Demigod
06-24-2013, 10:41 AM
He should have tried a Western European country and claimed he risked the death penalty or torture (see Manning). Most countries also denies extradition for "political crimes" unless the crime is excepted in international conventions or treaties, espionage generally is not.

This does not work in Europe except for dissidents from third world countries .The only way you can not get extradited from Europe is if you have the citizenship of the country,or are willing to pay.Paying off a country to protect you against the full force of the USA would be in the hundreds of millions of euros.

And Western Europe would be your worst choice ever France,Germany,UK :D,Scandinavia,Benelux would arrest you in a manner of minutes.Austria,Slovakia,The Czech republic,Estonia would be your best bets,especially if you get some help locally to stir up some patriotic feelings which should not be that hard because spiting empires is what Europeans live for.

The key in any case is to have a citizenship.If he could get charged with treason to the USA even better so he would lose his USA citizenship and then there is no legal way to extradite him.


Island countries like Cyprus,Iceland and small countries like Luxemburg,Malta,Lichentshtain are great for hiding if you are running away from financial prosecutions ( criminal ) but they will give you up if pressured because they have no capacity to handle the pressure.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 12:04 PM
Austria,Slovakia,The Czech republic,Estonia would be your best bets,

No way. Especially Czech republic is cozy with America, because of nuclear power program and other things.
Any Western European country would be a death sentence.




Island countries like Cyprus,Iceland and small countries like Luxemburg,Malta,Lichentshtain are great for hiding if you are running away from financial prosecutions ( criminal ) but they will give you up if pressured because they have no capacity to handle the pressure.

Right, Iceland could have been straight invaded.
Russia is basically his only option.


Jeesh. The Russians said they wouldn't let him out of airport....not cozy IMO.

Putin is setting up terms of negotiation with Snowden. He is going to make Snowden reveal everything he has to the FSB.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 12:30 PM
You are perpetuating the propaganda that Snowden is working with a foreign government. When a large enough number of people believe that, Snowden's fate will be especially miserable. (unless of course it's death) If Snowden wanted to be a spy for the Russian government he wouldn't have gone on international news and said, "Look at me, I'm the one who leaked this." He wouldn't have contacted Greenwald and the American people (some) would still not know they are being spied on.

Russia very well may not have let him leave. He may be used as a political bargaining chip, may be tortured by them, or may be given to a US proxy for whatever they have in store.

Quit calling him a traitor.

No. I'm being real. Snowden is going to have a choice: be tortured to death in America, or work for Russia.

Putin is not going to let Snowden just waltz into Ecuador, without fully exploiting the intelligence coup and propaganda victory of Snowden being cornered into Russia, the last place on the Earth that can stand up to American influence and bullying.

Snowden is at a dead end. He will now have to work with Russia, or face torture in the United States.
The United States has given him no choice but to cooperate with Russia.

kcchiefs6465
06-24-2013, 12:44 PM
No. I'm being real. Snowden is going to have a choice: be tortured to death in America, or work for Russia.

Putin is not going to let Snowden just waltz into Ecuador, without fully exploiting the intelligence coup and propaganda victory of Snowden being cornered into Russia, the last place on the Earth that can stand up to American influence and bullying.

Snowden is at a dead end. He will now have to work with Russia, or face torture in the United States.
The United States has given him no choice but to cooperate with Russia.
First and foremost, he is probably more likely to be tortured by Russia. It isn't as if Russia is going to nicely sit him down, pour him a shot of Vodka and ask politely what he knows. They'd extract the information in about the same ways we would. Except we wouldn't, because many people consider him a hero, until the elite narrative, which is being pimped by you also, of him being a traitor or working for Russia is accepted. Then when he is labeled an enemy combatant, they will render him, torture him, or worse. (worse, is subjective)

Secondly, there are United States citizens who have received political asylum all over the world. Assata Shakur is still in Cuba. Even after all the shit the DOJ says and the rewards, she is openly living there. There are many other examples of nations that haven't folded to diplomatic pressure. You said in an above post that "we could just invade Iceland." What? No way in fuck they are going into Iceland to get him. Why haven't they invaded the Ecuadoran embassy for Assange? Because there has to be at least a semblance of State sovereignty. CIA proxies might kidnap him from somewhere, hand him over to another foreign agency, and have that agency hand him over to our counterparts around the world, but that's about it. They aren't going to "invade" a country for this one man. With the correct amount of political pressuring he may very well be handed over by the Icelandic police. It would be approved and a joint operation.

If Snowden gives anything to the Russians that he has not given Greenwald it will be under extreme pressure. Waterboading probably being the most pleasant of which. You are promoting a narrative that he would willingly work for Russia. You must have fell asleep with MSNBC or FOX News on. Quit saying that bullshit for God's sake. The only thing keeping Snowden's situation from turning from dire to hopelessly dire is public support. So what are you doing to help that public support? Oh, calling him a spy. You sound like Peter King.

Austrian Econ Disciple
06-24-2013, 12:48 PM
If the US government wants your ASS, their are not a lot of places you can fly to without being handed over immediately...


And HK to Ecuador has no direct flight, most Central and South American countries are a bit tough to get to direct from HK.

Normally there's a stop in Miami or UK or some other US city stop. Tokyo? Not sure, but the people I know that travel to Central/South America from Asia take a couple stop overs.

I think they carefully plotted this route as the second he would land in UK or any US country he's fucked. If he needs to stop in 2-3 countries to get to his final destination, I truly think it's only because that's the ONLY route he can attempt without having a passport or the risk of being handed over immediately. I don't think it's to speak with ANY of the country leaders, logic doesn't dictate that at all.


I just tried to book a flight from HKG (Hong Kong) to UIO (Ecuador Airport).

Not so easy. One time I had to stop in Amsterdam and then Lima, peru. Another flight was Tokyo (With their battles with China they will do ANYTHING to keep perfect ties with US). And Tokyo to George Bush Airport. (Good luck with that)....Others stop in JFK or LAX or various NJ airports...

Not only that....But some of those are UNITED airlines or other US carriers. Once he's on a US plane, couldn't a US pilot be influenced to land in US friendly territory?

Talk about TRULY having LIMITED options. He needs to fly on an aircraft that won't immediately bow to any instructions to go somewhere else, and has to pick routes where he won't be handed over, the SECOND he gets off the plane.

Very very limited options.

I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with meeting enemies about spy shit, just trying to find the only route possible.

I'm sure there are plenty of places to stop in Africa. About the only thing that talks there is money and many of these countries have very little ties/allegiance/give two fucks about the US. Of course you're not going to use major airlines - that would be absolutely idiotic.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 01:15 PM
First and foremost, he is probably more likely to be tortured by Russia. It isn't as if Russia is going to nicely sit him down, pour him a shot of Vodka and ask politely what he knows. They'd extract the information in about the same ways we would. Except we wouldn't, because many people consider him a hero, until the elite narrative, which is being pimped by you also, of him being a traitor or working for Russia is accepted. Then when he is labeled an enemy combatant, they will render him, torture him, or worse. (worse, is subjective)

Oh, I think you underestimate Russian intelligence. They will not have to torture him, nor would they be so foolish.


Secondly, there are United States citizens who have received political asylum all over the world. Assata Shakur is still in Cuba. Even after all the shit the DOJ says and the rewards, she is openly living there. There are many other examples of nations that haven't folded to diplomatic pressure. You said in an above post that "we could just invade Iceland." What? No way in fuck they are going into Iceland to get him. Why haven't they invaded the Ecuadoran embassy for Assange? Because there has to be at least a semblance of State sovereignty. CIA proxies might kidnap him from somewhere, hand him over to another foreign agency, and have that agency hand him over to our counterparts around the world, but that's about it. They aren't going to "invade" a country for this one man. With the correct amount of political pressuring he may very well be handed over by the Icelandic police. It would be approved and a joint operation.

It would be an approved operation, and Snowden is not in Cuba, yet. He may never make it there.


If Snowden gives anything to the Russians that he has not given Greenwald it will be under extreme pressure. Waterboading probably being the most pleasant of which. You are promoting a narrative that he would willingly work for Russia. You must have fell asleep with MSNBC or FOX News on. Quit saying that bullshit for God's sake. The only thing keeping Snowden's situation from turning from dire to hopelessly dire is public support. So what are you doing to help that public support? Oh, calling him a spy. You sound like Peter King.

I'm being real. And it is the United States fault that it was doing this to its own people and to the world in the first place. Russia doesn't need to torture Snowden, and wouldn't, that would be snatching a propaganda defeat from the jaws of victory.

He's not exactly a spy, but his outlook is bleak, because the United States, as everyone knows, is simply going to give him the manning treatment. And when faced with that or working with Russia, which will he pick?

This is how I see Putin playing this one out. Snowden's situation became hopelessly dire the moment Hong Kong decided it didn't want the headache.

pcosmar
06-24-2013, 01:30 PM
Russia and china are perceived as enemies? We buy an awful lot of stuff from our enemy (China).


Really. And not only do we borrow from China and have had very long term Trading relations with Russia. But the conflicts all came from someone not wanting to do honest business.
The Russians just saw the wisdom of building up their military,, in response to threats. And despite conflicts (mostly territorial) between them,, we have been doing business with them elsewhere.

Ever get that feeling you are being played?

klamath
06-24-2013, 01:32 PM
No. I'm being real. Snowden is going to have a choice: be tortured to death in America, or work for Russia.

Putin is not going to let Snowden just waltz into Ecuador, without fully exploiting the intelligence coup and propaganda victory of Snowden being cornered into Russia, the last place on the Earth that can stand up to American influence and bullying.

Snowden is at a dead end. He will now have to work with Russia, or face torture in the United States.
The United States has given him no choice but to cooperate with Russia.No he will be used as a propaganda piece for Russia until no longer useful then THEY will torture him for information. If he starts playing games with the governments of the big countries he end up really fucked.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 01:36 PM
No he will be used as a propaganda piece for Russia until no longer useful then THEY will torture him for information. If he starts playing games with the governments of the big countries he end up really fucked.

He is really fucked anyway. He admitted that in his taped interview.
Russia will not torture, because then he will say they tortured him, and that would make what was a propaganda blockbuster become a propaganda disaster.
Plus, as any good intelligence agency knows... ...and the FSB is very good... ...torture doesn't work.
Torture is nothing but sadistic revenge on people for insults to ones nationalism or pride, nothing more.
If you want information, you cozy up to the person, and Russia, I think, can be very persuasive.
Do you suppose Snowden ever watched RT?
Do you think Snowden would be willing to go on RT?
Do you think there is a possibility, he is taping right now, for RT?

Demigod
06-24-2013, 01:59 PM
Secondly, there are United States citizens who have received political asylum all over the world. Assata Shakur is still in Cuba. Even after all the shit the DOJ says and the rewards, she is openly living there. There are many other examples of nations that haven't folded to diplomatic pressure. You said in an above post that "we could just invade Iceland." What? No way in fuck they are going into Iceland to get him. Why haven't they invaded the Ecuadoran embassy for Assange? Because there has to be at least a semblance of State sovereignty. CIA proxies might kidnap him from somewhere, hand him over to another foreign agency, and have that agency hand him over to our counterparts around the world, but that's about it. They aren't going to "invade" a country for this one man. With the correct amount of political pressuring he may very well be handed over by the Icelandic police. It would be approved and a joint operation.



UK was on the verge to take the Ecuadorian embassy and arresting Asange but the Ecuador government announced that that would be a declaration of war.Also other SA countries supported them + the most likely were pressured by other EU nations to not brake the Vienna convention. Asange is in a prison effectively it is just that he can communicate with the world and he got to pick his prison.He will never be able to leave that floor.WHAT A LIFE.

On the other hand Iceland is a little island in the middle of nowhere.No one has been invading them or bothered with them up until now because they are not worth it.If they start pocking in peoples eyes with things like hiding Snowden the USA could make their life a living hell if it wanted to with the help from the EU.Iceland has no real allies nor historical allies,the only ones they have are the Scandinavians and they will sell them out for peanuts.

You don't have to invade a country to destroy it.

anaconda
06-24-2013, 02:02 PM
One question here regarding Rand's comments: How is Iceland "independent" but Russia is not? Maybe Russia is still an evil empire or whatever Reagan called it.

klamath
06-24-2013, 02:07 PM
One question here regarding Rand's comments: How is Iceland "independent" but Russia is not? Maybe Russia is still an evil empire or whatever Reagan called it.Because he didn't just use "independent" he used "independent third country like Iceland"

anaconda
06-24-2013, 02:13 PM
Because he didn't just use "independent" he used "independent third country like Iceland"

Why can't Russia be an independent third country?

RonPaulMall
06-24-2013, 02:18 PM
No he will be used as a propaganda piece for Russia until no longer useful then THEY will torture him for information. If he starts playing games with the governments of the big countries he end up really fucked.

But you are making the assumption he has any information the Russians would find useful in the first place. Snowden was a relatively low level CIA contractor. I have to imagine the Russians have people on their payroll who are far higher up in the CIA than Snowden.

anaconda
06-24-2013, 02:19 PM
Now everyone thinks he is giving information to China and Russia, which based on his actions isn't too off base.

Guilty before presumed innocent? I'm 99% sure that any agreement with any country would stipulate that he gives them nothing. It's a great PR stunt for any other country that has a beef with the U.S.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 02:28 PM
I have to imagine the Russians have people on their payroll who are far higher up in the CIA than Snowden.

I wouldn't be so sure.

nobody's_hero
06-24-2013, 02:32 PM
Giving classified info to a foreign government is treason.

I know but it's just funny to me that the only thing Snowden has gone public with is the info about NSA snooping on phone and internet transmissions of the American people. I doubt the Russians care, lol.

Anti Federalist
06-24-2013, 02:37 PM
One question here regarding Rand's comments: How is Iceland "independent" but Russia is not? Maybe Russia is still an evil empire or whatever Reagan called it.

The only Evil Empire left is us.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 02:38 PM
I know but it's just funny to me that the only thing Snowden has gone public with is the info about NSA snooping on phone and internet transmissions of the American people. I doubt the Russians care, lol.

No, boundless informant was about the NSA is spying on the people of the world, as well. And not just turrists, but ALL people of the world, just like the NSA is doing to Americans.

Furthermore, he has told Hong Kong and Chinese press about the Untied States hacking into Chinese databases and servers.

Of course, because this is going to the press, it is pubic knowledge, so he is not "transferring secrets to foreign governments" as everyone is quite aware of what he is telling the presses, so it is not treason.

pcosmar
06-24-2013, 02:42 PM
Furthermore, he has told Hong Kong and Chinese press about the Untied States hacking into Chinese databases and servers.



Told Them? or confirmed what was already known? (are the Chinese really that stupid?)

Much like the NSA spying. (ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE REALLY THAT STUPID?)

anaconda
06-24-2013, 03:11 PM
The only Evil Empire left is us.

We're certainly high on the list. I'm still not clear on how Rand thinks Iceland is an "independent third country" but that Russia is not.

UPDATE: OK. Now I get it. Rand says "countries that are still perceived as enemies."

anaconda
06-24-2013, 03:15 PM
Why is there this presumption that Snowden will be giving classified data to the country he seeks asylum in? He just wants to stay out of jail.

In fact, given his circumstances, He will probably bend over backwards to make it crystal clear that there is no transference of sensitive information to any other countries.

dannno
06-24-2013, 03:23 PM
Yeah, I think that's pretty good advice from Rand. My only concern is will Iceland be able to withstand the pressure from Washington?

They did pretty good against the EU.

jmdrake
06-24-2013, 03:56 PM
Right now some people don't know if he's a hero or a traitor. PR matters.

:rolleyes: I'd rather be criticized by talking heads than carried by paul bearers. Snowden isn't your pawn Frank. This isn't about "PR". It's about survival. All things being equal if he could end up at the Hague testifying against Obama and Bush for crimes against humanity that would be the ultimate. But that's not going to happen.

UWDude
06-24-2013, 04:08 PM
Why is there this presumption that Snowden will be giving classified data to the country he seeks asylum in? He just wants to stay out of jail.


And, Putin will probably give him one of two choices:

cooperate with the FSB or
go be tortured to death in America.

Sorry, Putin is kind of a hard nosed guy. Former KGB. He doesn't mess around. He takes the super bowl ring, and says thanks for the gift. (http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/kraft_putin_stole_bowl_ring_qtB16b5PI0jipYT6tQxUGO )

I've read his auto biography. He's going to give Snowden a stark choice. Probably in a very, very cajoling and friendly tone, with inferences of shared interests etc... ....but don;t think for one minute Snowden is still in control of his fate. The moment he landed in Moscow, is the moment Putin became the PIC, person in charge.

This is reality. I guarantee you, Snowden is REALLY confused now.

Obama has one, and only one way out. Full and immediate immunity for Snowden. Which we know will not happen.

Therefore, The United States will suffer strategic harm for its stupidity, love of war and torture.

kcchiefs6465
06-24-2013, 05:35 PM
UK was on the verge to take the Ecuadorian embassy and arresting Asange but the Ecuador government announced that that would be a declaration of war.Also other SA countries supported them + the most likely were pressured by other EU nations to not brake the Vienna convention. Asange is in a prison effectively it is just that he can communicate with the world and he got to pick his prison.He will never be able to leave that floor.WHAT A LIFE.

On the other hand Iceland is a little island in the middle of nowhere.No one has been invading them or bothered with them up until now because they are not worth it.If they start pocking in peoples eyes with things like hiding Snowden the USA could make their life a living hell if it wanted to with the help from the EU.Iceland has no real allies nor historical allies,the only ones they have are the Scandinavians and they will sell them out for peanuts.

You don't have to invade a country to destroy it.
Indeed. There has to be a semblance of State sovereignty. Assata Shakur is still in Cuba, a very small island nation sixty miles from our border. I believe they recently upped the reward to one million dollars for her capture. She has been then for 30 years. (give or take) Then again, Cuba turned over the man who fled with his wife and child after "kidnapping" that child from the grandparent. I'm not too sure how much use they would have for Snowden or if he'd just be handed over. We've had sanctions on Cuba for what, 50 years? Not because of them giving asylum to our political prisoners, though. We do the same for other country's political prisoners.

As far as Assange's life, I have said some things are worse than death. I would consider that being close. I'm sure he is living relatively comfortably but to be constrained to one space forever would get a little bit old.

I am not doubting that Iceland may fold to DOJ pressures. The US just wouldn't up and go in to get him though. There would be talks and negotiations and in the end it would be a joint operation or the Icelandic police would detain him. There has to be some semblance of State sovereignty. (no matter how regularly we violate it)

Assange seems to think Ecuador is a good place. (one could imagine why) The truth is that the CIA has been involved in Ecuador many times. During the '60s they were infiltrating Leftist groups and other various shady imperialistic tactics. We have trained torturers and death squad commanders in many countries nearby. If he is walking on the street, someone will grab him. Especially if there was a high enough incentive. He will transferred to a foreign agency that does extradite and it would be said that he left on his own free will. Or he could simply disappear there. That would be much worse than anything people could imagine. The methods we've trained and they use to torture aren't nearly as "pleasant" as waterboarding. I'm talking electrical metal beds and things most people wouldn't want to imagine. Bought and paid for by the good ol' U.S. of A.

In short, he is not safe anywhere. Once public support dies out and the MSM quits talking about this case, his life will be substantially in more danger. I've read their manuals on torturing and killing people. None sound particularly nice. Though in truthfulness, one would most surely rather cease to be than put in the basement of Leavenworth where the lights never stop buzzing, the showers are cold, it is cold, and the phone rings for hours on end. Not to mention they restrict books, pencils, utensils, letters, anything to make your stay a little more comfortable. That is how they treat the people in the basement.

kcchiefs6465
06-24-2013, 05:38 PM
Giving classified info to a foreign government is treason.
Truth is treason.

tangent4ronpaul
06-24-2013, 06:00 PM
It would be an approved operation, and Snowden is not in Cuba, yet.

What makes you so sure about that?

-t

klamath
06-25-2013, 09:20 AM
Why can't Russia be an independent third country?
Because Russia has a long history of global imperialism, Iceland does not which is why Rand said "like Iceland". There is difference in those two independent states.

Carlybee
06-25-2013, 09:34 AM
Told Them? or confirmed what was already known? (are the Chinese really that stupid?)

Much like the NSA spying. (ARE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE REALLY THAT STUPID?)


No China is not stupid..they already have their own history of cyber hacking as does Russia...not to mention prior Wikileak info out there.

Qdog
06-25-2013, 09:50 AM
Iceland should be safe. That is where Bobby Fischer went after the US kidnapped him while he was living in exile in Japan.