Stossel Destroys Franklin Graham on Violent Video Games

[Antischism]

http://kotaku.com/watch-a-fox-reporter-demolish-a-hackneyed-anti-game-arg-535096517

Full video (http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2497270887001/do-video-games-lead-to-violence/)


Here is a comprehensive breakdown of their arguments, as I understand them:

Graham:

-God gets violent games because of that whole crucifixion business.
-We tax cigarettes, therefore we should also tax videogames because they’re the same.
-I miss my old cowboy TV shows. Gunsmoke was awesome, I’ll tell ya what.
-We're addicted to violent media "like the Romans".
-I’m old and this brave new world frightens and confuses me.

Stossel:

-Crime in America is down on the whole.
-Japan has higher game usage, immensely lower violence.
-There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that games make you violent.
-This is the exact same hysteria as comics in the 1950s, dressed up for a new generation.
-You have no argument (http://youtu.be/HaoySOGlZ_U?t=58s).

[EBounding]

You really do need to give Stossel credit. Even though he doesn't care about warrantless spying on all Americans, he sure does put his foot down when it comes to defending video games. :p

[Origanalist]

You really do need to give Stossel credit. Even though he doesn't care about warrantless spying on all Americans, he sure does put his foot down when it comes to defending video games. :p

As long as he's there for the important stuff. :rolleyes:

[Antischism]

You really do need to give Stossel credit. Even though he doesn't care about warrantless spying on all Americans, he sure does put his foot down when it comes to defending video games. :p

It's unfortunate, really.

[BamaAla]

You really do need to give Stossel credit. Even though he doesn't care about warrantless spying on all Americans, he sure does put his foot down when it comes to defending video games. :p

Video games are serious business.

[mad cow]

-I miss my old cowboy TV shows. Gunsmoke was awesome, I’ll tell ya what.

OK,he wins this one.

[BlackTerrel]

Stossel is pretty good on the whole logic bit.

[Anti Federalist]

Video games are serious business.

Damn right.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldqudwXMKD1qcwnxw.jpg

[jclay2]

I disagree on the notion that video games don't make people violent. To me, video games are conditioning to make killing and murder common place and acceptable in society (especially when it is government doing the killing).

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Penn & Teller have also tackled this topic:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaF9nbLo8as

[JCDenton0451]

But violent video games are not at risk in America, our privacy is.

[jclay2]

But violent video games are not at risk in America, our privacy is.

true dat.

[RM918]

I disagree on the notion that video games don't make people violent. To me, video games are conditioning to make killing and murder common place and acceptable in society (especially when it is government doing the killing).

Ehhhh, violence has been going down on the whole and video games have only gotten more popular. Plus, if violent video games make people violent, does that mean SimCity drives you to city planning?

[Sola_Fide]

The idea that we are evolving to a higher state or more moral disposition has been utterly disproven so many times in history. This is the presupposition of the communists, that the nature of man is basically good, and can even be perfected. This was the supposition of the eugenicists and social Darwinists in America and Germany which gave rise to the total state.

The only worldview that can sustain a free society is Christianity because it correctly identifies the corrupt nature of man. The idea of an evolving man is the ground basis for absolute tyranny.

[heavenlyboy34]

The idea that we are evolving to a higher state or more moral disposition has been utterly disproven so many times in history. This is the presupposition of the communists, that the nature of man is basically good, and can even be perfected. This was the supposition of the eugenicists and social Darwinists in America and Germany which gave rise to the total state.

The only worldview that can sustain a free society is Christianity because it correctly identifies the corrupt nature of man. The idea of an evolving man is the ground basis for absolute tyranny.
You must have wandered into the wrong thread. This is the violent video games thread. Religion forums are that-a-way ->

[Anti Federalist]

Stossel is pretty good on the whole logic bit.

That's part of the problem.

On the surface, freedom is illogical.

Scared of the terrorist boogeyman?

Well, then, it becomes perfectly logical to monitor everybody for "terroristic" thoughts and patterns.

Just so long as it is done efficiently.

The logic breaks down when you start to question what will be, or what has happened in the past...that becomes "conspiracy theory".

Or when you question what is happening now.

The reality being that you are ten times more likely to be shot by a cop than killed by a terrorist.

But that isn't "logical", the police are there "to protect us".

Then it becomes painfully clear that it is tyranny that is illogical, the needs of the many do NOT outweigh the needs of the few.

But by then, for the society in question, it is usually too late.

[Anti Federalist]

Freedom to play video games.

Just so long as your XBox, with its onboard sensors, cameras and microphones are linked into the NSA Matrix 24/7

Freedumb.

[juleswin]

Ehhhh, violence has been going down on the whole and video games have only gotten more popular. Plus, if violent video games make people violent, does that mean SimCity drives you to city planning?

Violence being down can be attributed to video games while saying that video games makes people violent. This is because video games keeps many of the violent customers they've created inside playing said violent video games and away from the streets where they can commit violent crimes. Its a catch 22

Also about simcity not creating a boom in city planning? city planning needs huge capital to buy the land, hire expertise to do the planning as opposed to just using your fist when the need arises. So the easy habit get picked up and the harder and capital limiting ones get dropped.

[heavenlyboy34]

That's part of the problem.

On the surface, freedom is illogical.

Scared of the terrorist boogeyman?

Well, then, it becomes perfectly logical to monitor everybody for "terroristic" thoughts and patterns.

Just so long as it is done efficiently.

The logic breaks down when you start to question what will be, or what has happened in the past...that becomes "conspiracy theory".

Or when you question what is happening now.

The reality being that you are ten times more likely to be shot by a cop than killed by a terrorist.

But that isn't "logical", the police are there "to protect us".

Then it becomes painfully clear that it is tyranny that is illogical, the needs of the many do NOT outweigh the needs of the few.

But by then, for the society in question, it is usually too late.
Indeed. Semantics screws up the liberty/tyranny debate in many ways. There are a LOT of people who think 100% safety=freedom. But "100% safety" is impossible without a ginormous Security State. It's technically "logical", but the premises that lead to the Security State are much different than the ones you and I start from. :( The present and future are full of fail.

[mello]

I've been playing videogames since Pong & the idea that they are murder simulators that make kids into murderers are complete & total bullshit! If that were true, the world would look like the wasteland in a Mad Max movie. Microsoft & Sony have sold around 70 million of their current game consoles each. The game industry is larger than the movie industry. The Atari 2600 came out in 1980 & violent crime from kids & teens have been going down consistently for the past 30 years. If the game-haters hypothesis was correct, violent crime from kids & teens should have gone up consistently over the past 30 years instead.

Last year I bought my first handgun (a Glock 19). I thought I'd hit nothing but the bullseye at my first day at the shooting range. But the reality was that I went through 50 rounds & did not hit the bullseye once. The target was close too (about 20-25ft away). I never factored in the noise of each shot, the recoil, and the adrenaline rush affecting the slight tremor in my hands that I tried to steady for each shot. Even the act of loading the gun is completely unrelated to videogames since you have to load each bullet into the magazine which for me took a while to get the hang of.

When I see stories like this where they claim videogames like Grand Theft Auto desensitizes kids to kill, the reality is that it's the kid's lawyer that uses videogames as a legal defense in court so they don't end up in prison for life because they are little sociopaths. It's the 21st century version of the Twinkie defense.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Indeed. Semantics screws up the liberty/tyranny debate in many ways. There are a LOT of people who think 100% safety=freedom. But "100% safety" is impossible without a ginormous Security State. It's technically "logical", but the premises that lead to the Security State are much different than the ones you and I start from. :( The present and future are full of fail.

You're never '100% safe'. Just ask anyone in prison...

[Occam's Banana]

The logic breaks down when you start to question what will be, or what has happened in the past...that becomes "conspiracy theory".

Or when you question what is happening now.

I was going to say that you omitted "or what could happen in the future" - but then I noticed that you covered that with "what will be." /thumbs-up

What really pisses me off is how anyone who:
(1) professes to give a shit about freedom, and (2) has two brain cells to rub together

... can possibly be aware of things like:
(A) the IRS scandal, and (B) the NSA scandal

... and still say, "Meh! Big fat hairy deal! I just don't care. There's nothing to be particularly worried about here."

Logic can only get you so far. For example:
- The moon is green.
- All green things are made of green cheese.
- Therefore, the moon is made of green cheese.

Mr. Spock himself could not fault the logic of that argument.

But all the logic in the world won't do you a damn bit of good if your premises are for shit.

Mr. Stossel (no Spock he) really needs to look to his premises ...

[Origanalist]

Mr. Stossel (no Spock he) really needs to look to his premises ...

Well....if he put on the ears......

[AngryCanadian]

I know for a fact Video Games have played and my post war stress and fleeing the war zone and seeing all sort of Crap right in your face when your just a 5 year old you have no idea what kind of horrific things were happening right in front you as you we were fleeing in a car. Video games can and do help people.

[bolil]

I've logged hundreds, maybe thousands of hours, on 'violent games'... I've yet to enlist, accept a commission, or shoot up a mall.

[mad cow]

You're never '100% safe'. Just ask anyone in prison...

Well,24 hours a day in a well padded cell with a soft plastic bucket for your waste and soft food you can eat with your hands slid into you through the slit in the extremely strong well locked door would come mighty,mighty close.

For those who would choose safety over liberty,of course.

[economics102]

I think you have to separate the question of "what influence (if any) do violent videogames have on the mentally ill?" versus "what influence do violent videogames have on normal people?"

To the latter question, we have already seen the largest study in human history over the past three decades -- a sharp increase in violent videogames (and TV/movies) and yet, as another poster said, if there was an influence, the world would look like Mad Max by now. I have done all sorts of terrible things in the videogames I've played, and yet, funny enough, I'm a completely nonviolent individual in real life, I've never even been in a fistfight. In the game Shadow of the Collossus I always thought it was fun to shoot arrows at my horse. The idea that I would ever want to do that in real life just because I thought it was funny in the game is preposterous.

There's a hilarious game called Surgeon Simulator that came out recently. You can do funny things like remove a patient's stomach and throw it at their head. That may not sound funny, but it's funny in the game. Would it be funny in real life? Of course not. Do people playing the game have the misperception that it would be funny to do that in real life? At least among the non-mentally ill, I'm quite certain the answer is no.

Now when it comes to the mentally ill, maybe there's something to that, maybe not. I don't think there's any evidence to support that claim yet though.

To me the real absurdity of the violent videogame debate is the fact that the people (especially politicians and media commentators) who keep claiming violent videogames cause these tragic events like Columbine or Newtown are the same people who blatantly ignore the much more obvious and clear causes and influences. Like how the media's saturation coverage of these tragedies inspires copycats. And the antidepresssant links, etc.

[Antischism]

I think you have to separate the question of "what influence (if any) do violent videogames have on the mentally ill?" versus "what influence do violent videogames have on normal people?"

To the latter question, we have already seen the largest study in human history over the past three decades -- a sharp increase in violent videogames (and TV/movies) and yet, as another poster said, if there was an influence, the world would look like Mad Max by now. I have done all sorts of terrible things in the videogames I've played, and yet, funny enough, I'm a completely nonviolent individual in real life, I've never even been in a fistfight. In the game Shadow of the Collossus I always thought it was fun to shoot arrows at my horse. The idea that I would ever want to do that in real life just because I thought it was funny in the game is preposterous.

There's a hilarious game called Surgeon Simulator that came out recently. You can do funny things like remove a patient's stomach and throw it at their head. That may not sound funny, but it's funny in the game. Would it be funny in real life? Of course not. Do people playing the game have the misperception that it would be funny to do that in real life? At least among the non-mentally ill, I'm quite certain the answer is no.

Now when it comes to the mentally ill, maybe there's something to that, maybe not. I don't think there's any evidence to support that claim yet though.

To me the real absurdity of the violent videogame debate is the fact that the people (especially politicians and media commentators) who keep claiming violent videogames cause these tragic events like Columbine or Newtown are the same people who blatantly ignore the much more obvious and clear causes and influences. Like how the media's saturation coverage of these tragedies inspires copycats. And the antidepresssant links, etc.

Also funny is when people like Wayne LaPierre and others who are supposedly protecting our gun rights, shift the blame to video games using the same illogical arguments that those who want to ban guns do.

[economics102]

Also funny is when people like Wayne LaPierre and others who are supposedly protecting our gun rights, shift the blame to video games using the same illogical arguments that those who want to ban guns do.

YES. Talk about sleazy.

Ugh. Politics is such trash.

[HigherVision]

The games these days are so realistic that any desire to commit violence can probably be totally satiated by the games. Your nervous system might not even know the difference at this point, especially in HD. Which sounds a bit messed up and it's not cup of tea but it probably has an anti-violence effect on real life.

As for me I'm sticking with OG Mortal Kombat on the Mame emulator :D

[heavenlyboy34]

The games these days are so realistic that any desire to commit violence can probably be totally satiated by the games. Your nervous system might not even know the difference at this point, especially in HD. Which sounds a bit messed up and it's not cup of tea but it probably has an anti-violence effect on real life.

As for me I'm sticking with OG Mortal Kombat on the Mame emulator :D
Sub-Zero FTW! :D

[Occam's Banana]

Well....if he put on the ears......

The ears would be cancelled out by the porn-star moustache.

Spock even has Stossel beat in the facial hair department ...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1ihpzIja81qfgn6uo1_500.jpg

[green73]

OK,he wins this one.

He's one of us!

[VIDEODROME]

Ehhhh, violence has been going down on the whole and video games have only gotten more popular. Plus, if violent video games make people violent, does that mean SimCity drives you to city planning?

I gained 5 pounds I'm blaming Pac-Man.

[Christian Liberty]

While I was completely disappointed in Stossel for his comments on the NSA, any legal means of shutting up Christian Fascists is good with me.

Seriously, the vast majority of ministers (Chuck Baldwin and Steven Anderson specifically exempted, my dad for the most part exempted as well, and they probably aren't the only ones) need to stick to theology and just shut up about political issues.