Are occupations like being a lawyer or a stock broker superficial?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

What I mean is a lot of people complain about poor people or not so poor people being given everything through the taxes of the many. But what about all the others who drain on the economy? The lawyers, stock brokers, real estate agents, etc. They don't really produce anything meaningful. The farmer produces crops, the miner produces minerals, the oil driller produces... oil. Look at the people who are at the stock market every day. They don't do anything meaningful for society. All they do is switch around money and make money off of that. They're like parasites when I think about it.

[angelatc]

My 401k is very meaningful to me.

[talkingpointes]

What I mean is a lot of people complain about poor people or not so poor people being given everything through the taxes of the many. But what about all the others who drain on the economy? The lawyers, stock brokers, real estate agents, etc. They don't really produce anything meaningful. The farmer produces crops, the miner produces minerals, the oil driller produces... oil. Look at the people who are at the stock market every day. They don't do anything meaningful for society. All they do is switch around money and make money off of that. They're like parasites when I think about it.

Stock brokers a drain ? Do you know how companies can raise capital ? Do you know why it's good to be able to short ?

[AuH20]

Not all lawyers and stock brokers. Some hedge funds provide capital for important start-up projects. But there is certainly a dominant theme of parasitism that has gripped these fields, especially over the last 30 or so years.

[angelatc]

Not all lawyers and stock brokers. Some hedge funds provide capital for important start-up projects. But there is certainly a dominant theme of parasitism that has gripped these fields, especially over the last 30 or so years.

I think that's because there is just too much money being pumped into the system. True story: when I was in the business, the company I worked for ended their bonus programs because no matter how much they scaled down the formula, the bonuses kept getting too big. Seriously, guys in the mail room were opting to retire early because their annual bonuses allowed them to leave 2 or 3 years early.

That was in a tough labor market, so the costs of replacing workers was a lot more than it is now.

[Legend1104]

We definitely need more constitutional lawyers. Most lawyers today are taught to argue case law. They only care about what other rulings and laws say, and that is how they win. That is why lawyers make terrible congressmen because they don't really care about the original intent of the constitution, they just care about current law. They never seem to even question if the law is constitutional, rather that it just exists and how to interpret that law.

[satchelmcqueen]

i have to agree with the op.

[tod evans]

I've always been of the belief if you can't hold your work in your hands at the end of the day then your job isn't productive.

[Acala]

I would agree that most lawyers are simply parasites on a system they have shaped to feed themselves. But there are lawyers who help people reach constructive agreements to start businesses, trade goods and services, etc. Every major building project of any kind has a slew of contracts paving the way.

[Mike4Freedom]

I've always been of the belief if you can't hold your work in your hands at the end of the day then your job isn't productive.

You have to ask yourself. Are you increasing the productivity of the things that matter:
Things that improve the process of producing food, machinery, energy, technology.
Services that also can improve these things.

I would agree that a lot of jobs out there are unproductive. Let me list some jobs that you don't hold you work in your hands
Pretty much all big multinational company executives, higher up government jobs(the 6 figure ones) Let me explain my company executives thing. All the large multinationals all have seats at each others boards and keep giving each other raises. The CEO of one company sits on the board of another and votes to increase compensation as long as the other returns the favor.

JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Wal-mart, HP, Google, Apple, Amazon, Exxon, Boeing, Monsanto, etc.

In a true free market you would not have these CEO and boards due to the fact that a corporation is an fictional thing created by a government
/rant

[brandon]

OP I think you either don't understand what stock brokers do or don't understand the utility of functioning markets. The SEC does require various certifications for being a broker which probably adds a bit of artificial value to the position, but the role they fill is absolutely vital and requires a very special type of person.

[jclay2]

So where does trading lie on this spectrum. Does someone produce no value if he buys low and sells high for a living?

[dannno]

OP, there ARE valid reasons for stock brokers, or investment advisers in a free market economy. There are also valid reasons to have lawyers to help mediate contracts, crimes, fraud, etc..

HOWEVER, the Federal Reserve along with government regulations vastly increase our dependence on financial institutions and other intermediaries like lawyers and real estate agents.

So you are right that these industries are bloated and leaching off of the productive elements of society, but it doesn't mean that they serve no purpose, just that their purpose has been vastly expanded by our current system and so they are a drain on resources.

[dannno]

The idea is if you are a farmer or producer of some good or service and you produce a lot and have some form of savings, you may want to invest your savings and you may want to maximize the return by investing outside of your local area and may not know where the best place to put that money is. Where you can maximize your profit the most is where the market will have the greatest and most efficient benefits. That's where investment advisers come in, they allocate capital into productive sectors and increase efficiency.

Do you know what arbitrage is? Let's say you cay buy a Yen in the US for $4, which means you can sell it for $4, but you can buy a Yen in Japan for $3. The people who go to Japan and buy the Yen for $3 and then sell it in the US for $4 are arbitrageurs. As more people bring more Yen over the US, the price in Japan will slowly rise and the price in the US will slowly drop until an equilibrium is reached, which may be down to $3.10. So now the price of the Yen in the US is $3.10 and the price of the Yen in Japan is $3.10. Arbitrageurs make some profit, but they are also increasing the efficiency of both markets. People in Japan had excess Yen that they were able to sell for more $ than they would normally be able to get and the shortage of Yen over in the US is gone. If you do all the math, you figure out that everybody is better off and markets are more efficient under this scenario.

Now that is with currency, but you can also do the same with goods. If there is a price difference in two different markets with goods, then the people who take those goods from one area where it is relatively inexpensive to another place where it is relatively expensive you are involved in arbitrage. It is actually helping to fill demand for goods and services, it's not difficult, but SOMEBODY has to do it and as long as there is competition you will have people reaping reasonable profits in a free market by arbitrating.

[TheGrinch]

I've always been of the belief if you can't hold your work in your hands at the end of the day then your job isn't productive.

Without services, the value of your work would be limited to purely personal use. Products don't transport and sell themselves, for example.

Without teachers, many would not be able to learn how to produce.

Without proper planning and management, production would suffer.

Those who are skilled in other areas besides crafting and production would see their talents wasted in a job not suited for them.

There are really countless examples of jobs that have worth without being directly tied to the production process.

[JustinTime]

What I mean is a lot of people complain about poor people or not so poor people being given everything through the taxes of the many. But what about all the others who drain on the economy? The lawyers, stock brokers, real estate agents, etc. They don't really produce anything meaningful. The farmer produces crops, the miner produces minerals, the oil driller produces... oil. Look at the people who are at the stock market every day. They don't do anything meaningful for society. All they do is switch around money and make money off of that. They're like parasites when I think about it.

As long as nobody is forced to purchase their service (and lawyers are arguably the lone exception there) I see no problem.

Thats freedom, if I want advice on which stocks to buy, or I want a professional to guide me through the home buying process, I need a stock broker or a real estate agent.

But anyhow, what do you propose to do about these parasitic professions? Have politicians ban them? Or just regulate the hell out of them?

[Icymudpuppy]

There are really only a handful of true wealth generating jobs. Everything else is just moving it around.

Agriculture: includes farming and forestry.
Animal Husbandry: meat, dairy, poultry, etc
Hunting and Trapping for fur/meat
Fisheries
Mining: includes minerals and fossil fuels.
Energy: Solar, Wind, Hydro, etc

Still useful industries are those that make direct use of those raw materials. The production trades Examples:
Construction trades
Food industry trades
Medical trades
Textile trades

Financial services and legal services are really just creative methods of separating real producers from their production.

[amy31416]

It may portray me as somewhat "simple," but I think that when the law becomes so complicated that average people can't deal with it and aren't even allowed to know it--it's out of control. Once you need lawyers to defend yourself against a freaking traffic ticket, it's a major flag.

The laws of this country should be basic and applied to everyone.

[TheGrinch]

There are really only a handful of true wealth generating jobs. Everything else is just moving it around.

Agriculture: includes farming and forestry.
Animal Husbandry: meat, dairy, poultry, etc
Hunting and Trapping for fur/meat
Fisheries
Mining: includes minerals and fossil fuels.
Energy: Solar, Wind, Hydro, etc

Still useful industries are those that make direct use of those raw materials. The production trades Examples:
Construction trades
Food industry trades
Medical trades
Textile trades

Financial services and legal services are really just creative methods of separating real producers from their production.

While the system has allowed for these services to stray from what they are intended to do, I'm very surprised to see someone who's in favor of the free market to take such an oversimplified view of wealth.

Sure, money started as a convenient means to bartering items produced, but wealth is merely a place holder for value or worth.

For example, if investing in something can increase that person's wealth, then how is that separating the producers from their production? Just the opposite, people pay for these services because it's worth it to them, whether that be for quality of life, increasing wealth, etc, or else they wouldn't. To suggest that it's essentially robbing them of their means of production is completely false.

In fact, if one were to take what they earned from production, and uses a financial service to make a sound investment in more production, that completely blows your logic apart. Production in that case, leads to more production, and thus wealth, but it does not have to do so to have worth. Anything can as long as someone ascribes value to it.

Wealth and worth are completely arbitrary, Something is worth what it's worth to someone else, it doesn't matter if it's tangible or not, service or production based. Its completely dependent on the economics involved, and again, no one is getting sheisted to pay for services, or else they wouldn't pay for it.

Like I said above, without services, production wouldn't be worth what it is today, or even possible. Anything and everything are worth the value they have to the purchaser. You need not reduce that to only what you can touch. That's mistaken to do so.

[RickyJ]

I've always been of the belief if you can't hold your work in your hands at the end of the day then your job isn't productive.

All those that make software, music, films, authors of digital books, video games, and of course all those that provide needed services can be and are in some cases productive. I even think stock brokers serve a good purpose, but I have to agree that for the most part lawyers are parasites and produce nothing of value.

And if what you hold in your hand at the end of the day is of poor quality or junk then even manufacturing can be unproductive at times.

[mad cow]

So where does trading lie on this spectrum. Does someone produce no value if he buys low and sells high for a living?

They produce enormous value,both for the producer and the consumer of a product.

Take food producing industries as an example.Producers like ranchers,farmers,fishermen would lose money if they had to track down and sell to the end consumers of their products,many in different States and Countries,one by one.

Consumers?I spent 45 minutes and $131 in a grocery store today and went home with meat,fruits,vegetables,milk,juices,spices,wines and beer and more from around the country and around the world that would have taken me months and thousands of dollars to collect on my own.

Thank goodness for middlemen.

[enoch150]

So where does trading lie on this spectrum. Does someone produce no value if he buys low and sells high for a living?

Companies issue shares when they need a lot of money for something, like say, a new manufacturing plant. Or maybe they it's a start-up company. The early investors get shares and give money directly to the company.

But what happens years later when those early investors need that money back, either for personal use or maybe to invest in another start-up? They have to sell their shares to other people willing to invest. The stock traders who just buy and sell all day long provide for price discovery, allowing investors to make decisions easier.

Examples of truly unproductive occupations:

Politician
Tax Collector
Border Patrol Agent
Customs Agent
Drug Enforcement Agent
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives Agent
etc.

[bolil]

For the up and comer: do what does best for you. Philosophy, or atleast its negative part, is the domain of old men and failures.

[Occam's Banana]

We definitely need more constitutional lawyers.

Barack Obama is a constitutional lawyer. So was Bill Clinton.


Most lawyers today are taught to argue case law. They only care about what other rulings and laws say, and that is how they win. That is why lawyers make terrible congressmen because they don't really care about the original intent of the constitution, they just care about current law. They never seem to even question if the law is constitutional, rather that it just exists and how to interpret that law.

Exactly the same things are true of constitutional lawyers. They aren't any different in training or approach from any other type of lawyer.

[TheGrinch]

For the up and comer: do what does best for you. Philosophy, or atleast its negative part, is the domain of old men and failures.

Na, it's also for the naive college kids who haven't had to experience the real world yet. I don't mean that as an insult either, I've been there.

You quickly learn that hyper-idealism wants to see the world as it should be, not the way that it is. This is not to say that one should abandon their ideals, but rather recognize that the world is not so perfect like you wish it would be, and you have to live there, even if you do choose to try to change it.

Sure I'd love it if we hadn't devolved into a consumerist economy relying on over-consumption, and instead focused more on production, but it has also allowed for some very unique creativity that the rest of the world is in awe of,

Like bolil said, do what's best for you, no matter what your reasoning, so long as there is a demand you can fill (which is really the crux of value and worth). Hell, I've even learned over the last 8 years that what you want to do and what you need to do to make a living can be two completely different things. The world isn't so easy to think that it will stick to your ideals.

[bolil]

I feel obligated to say that not all old men are failures. My dad is an old man, and as far as I am concerned my dad pisses success. He doesn't know that though, or doesn't see it. If you've read Nietzsche you've read me.