PDA

View Full Version : Snowden separates the wheat from the chaff - is anyone keeping track?




limequat
06-21-2013, 08:49 AM
The Snowden deal is really showing us who are and ARE NOT our friends. We got expected responses from people like Cheney and Feinstein. I think a lot of us were surprised by Stossel. Is anybody keeping track of who has said what?

Anti Federalist
06-21-2013, 08:52 AM
Beck got a gold star AFAIC.

limequat
06-21-2013, 08:55 AM
Disclaimer: Some slimeballs may be siding with Snowden in order to improve ratings or for other selfish reasons. Use logic, follow the money, and YMMV:


Friends on THIS issue
==================
Glenn Beck: "I think I have just read about the man for which I have waited.Earmarks of a real hero."
Noam Chomsky: "governments will use whatever technology is available to them to combat their primary enemy – which is their own population"
Judge Napolitano: ""He also took an oath to uphold the Constitution and that is a higher obligation. ... He chose which oath to comply"
Rand Paul: "Civil disobedient" likened to Thoreau
Ron Paul: "We should be thankful for individuals like Edward Snowden"
Thomas Massie: "Congress has passed, and [continues] to pass, [legislation] without regard for our Constitution"
Michael Moore: "HERO OF THE YEAR"
Jeremy Scahill: "out of control national security state."
Steve Wozniak: 'I felt about Edward Snowden the way I felt about Daniel Ellsberg'
Al Gore: NSA’s secret surveillance program ‘not really the American way’
Tom McClintock: "standing up for the constitutional rights of every American"
Michael Savage: "We are all Snowden"
Glenn Greenwald:


Foes:
======
Michelle Bachmann: "Traitor"
John Boehner: "traitor,"
John Bolton: "the worst form of treason."
Mike Brzezinski: "He is not a whistleblower!"
Jay Carney:
Dick Cheney:
James Clapper:
Diane Feinstein: "I think it's an act of treason"
Richard Haass: “We should just be clear not to call him a whistleblower,”
Eric Holder: "The safety of the American people ... have been put at risk as a result of these leaks,”
Peter King: "He is a person who has betrayed this country, violated his oath and caused incalculable damage to our national security,"
John McCain: "treasonous"
Bill Nelson: What Edward Snowden did amounts to an Act of Treason,"
Barack Obama: "We've struck the right balance" between privacy and security (i.e; none).
Tim Pawlenty: Snowden's 'A Traitor,' Not a Whistleblower
Nancy Pelosi (D-CA): Snowden should be prosecuted
Joe Scarbarough: "Guy’s a weasel. Can we not put his face up on the screen anymore? He looks like a weasel.”
John Stossel
Jeffrey Toobin: Garbage Mouthpiece CNN

freejack
06-21-2013, 08:59 AM
Add Steve Wozniak to the friends list: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/21/wozniak-guilty-nsa-surveillance-snowden

Carlybee
06-21-2013, 09:01 AM
Peter King enemy #1

Anti Federalist
06-21-2013, 09:06 AM
Peter King enemy #1

No kidding.

That self aggrandizing, fat, fascist fuck is truly dangerous.

limequat
06-21-2013, 09:11 AM
I gotta say, Al Gore was an even bigger surprise than Stossel

EBounding
06-21-2013, 09:15 AM
Add Tom McClintock (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?418572-Tom-McClintock-Snowden-not-a-Traitor) to the friends list. I knew he was better than most Republicans, but he's gone all out for civil liberties since Snowden blew the whistle.

AuH20
06-21-2013, 09:31 AM
The always unconventional Michael Savage not surprisingly.

http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/michael-savage-we-are-all-snowden/

asurfaholic
06-21-2013, 09:46 AM
I'm not sure al gore is really a friend...

limequat
06-21-2013, 09:46 AM
Two people I didn't know I loved until now:

Glenn Greenwald
Jeremy Scahill

Two real journalists fighting the good fight. When they talk, I cheer. Reminds me of watching Ron Paul during a debate.

belian78
06-21-2013, 09:47 AM
I'm not sure al gore is really a friend...
Or Micheal Moore.

limequat
06-21-2013, 09:49 AM
I'm not sure al gore is really a friend...

Makes you wonder though, doesn't it? We can have "friends" with different political views.

Socialists:
George Orwell
Noam Chomsky
Lewis Black

And then there's Dennis Kucinich.

Al Gore may be out to lunch about climate change, but he may have good intentions at heart. Dunno.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-21-2013, 09:55 AM
I'm not sure al gore is really a friend...


I got a good laugh out of that, but I was making the same point about Chomsky the other day. Let's take agreement on this wherever we can get it, and let's use it in whatever manner we can to dismantle this unconstitutional police state that is running off the fucking rails. When someone like Gore is in agreement with us on an issue, it really just underscores how fucked up it is.

Acala
06-21-2013, 09:57 AM
Al Gore may be out to lunch about climate change, but he may have good intentions at heart. Dunno.

Or he may have licked his finger, put it into the wind and made a political gamble. I think Diane Feinstein may have come down on the wrong side politically on this one.

HOLLYWOOD
06-21-2013, 10:23 AM
The Enemies to the American People / US Constitution:

ex Gov Tim Pawlenty: Snowden's 'A Traitor,' Not a Whistleblower
http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/pawlenty-snowden-traitor-leaks/2013/06/11/id/509298

US Senator Bill Nelson on Snowden: "This is not a whistleblower." Says what he did is "act of treason."

CNN Jeffrey Toobin <=== Garbage Mouthpiece

rep Nancy Pelosi (D-CA): Snowden should be prosecuted (http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/13/pelosi-snowden-should-be-prosecuted-video/)

thoughtomator
06-21-2013, 10:27 AM
If you like Greenwald I'd keep an eye on David Seaman as well.

We can add Cenk Ugyur to the "friends" list. He's been on fire on snooping issues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBTHoBGQ8xY

Anti Federalist
06-21-2013, 10:34 AM
I got a good laugh out of that, but I was making the same point about Chomsky the other day. Let's take agreement on this wherever we can get it, and let's use it in whatever manner we can to dismantle this unconstitutional police state that is running off the fucking rails. When someone like Gore is in agreement with us on an issue, it really just underscores how fucked up it is.

Makes sure you throw that right back in the progs faces as well.

Gore and Chomsky agree with us.

W and Cheney and Limbaugh agree with you.

Who are the "liberals"?

kcchiefs6465
06-21-2013, 10:45 AM
I believe Michele Bachman had a thing or two to say about it.

limequat
06-21-2013, 11:07 AM
Has anyone heard Maddow say anything? I thought she might be for realz, then the Rand interview...

kcchiefs6465
06-21-2013, 11:09 AM
Has anyone heard Maddow say anything? I thought she might be for realz, then the Rand interview...
Please tell me you are joking.

Of all the people in the world, I probably cannot stand Maddow the most.

limequat
06-21-2013, 11:10 AM
Makes sure you throw that right back in the progs faces as well.

Gore and Chomsky agree with us.

W and Cheney and Limbaugh agree with you.

Who are the "liberals"?

Yeah add in Michael Moore to that list and you have some real liberal fire power.

I was just tellin' my folks, "You know when Cheney, Bush, and Obama all come down on the same side, its the WRONG side!"

HOLLYWOOD
06-21-2013, 11:12 AM
WHo's updating the list? Gonna be a sticky? It should, because everything else revolves around this one HUGE single violation of the US Constitution/Rights

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-21-2013, 11:14 AM
Makes sure you throw that right back in the progs faces as well.

Gore and Chomsky agree with us.

W and Cheney and Limbaugh agree with you.

Who are the "liberals"?


Yes, yes, yes. It helps make the point to my "liberal" friends that their 'blue team' are still neocons at the end of the day.

Now, one might ask how i have "liberal" friends. It's because I know we have more in common than they do. For now.

georgiaboy
06-21-2013, 11:15 AM
Two people I didn't know I loved until now:

Glenn Greenwald
Jeremy Scahill

Two real journalists fighting the good fight. When they talk, I cheer. Reminds me of watching Ron Paul during a debate.

That's him! Jeremy Scahill. I was trying to remember that guy's name. I've seen him on C-SPAN before, really impressive on a number issues.

kcchiefs6465
06-21-2013, 11:16 AM
WHo's updating the list? Gonna be a sticky? It should, because everything else revolves around this one HUGE single violation of the US Constitution/Rights
It would be much easier to compile a list of who isn't.

I just assume they are all fundamentally unsound, unconstitutional schemers, and/or party organs. I am never disappointed that way.

CaseyJones
06-21-2013, 11:20 AM
I'm starting a list:

Friends
======
Glenn Beck: "I think I have just read about the man for which I have waited.Earmarks of a real hero."
Noam Chomsky: "Governments should not have this capacity. But governments will use whatever technology is available to them to combat their primary enemy – which is their own population"
Judge Napolitano: ""He also took an oath to uphold the Constitution and that is a higher obligation. ... He chose which oath to comply"
Rand Paul: "Civil disobedient" likened to Thoreau
Ron Paul: "We should be thankful for individuals like Edward Snowden"
Michael Moore: "HERO OF THE YEAR"
Jeremy Scahill: "out of control national security state."
Steve Wozniak: 'I felt about Edward Snowden the way I felt about Daniel Ellsberg'
Al Gore: NSA’s secret surveillance program ‘not really the American way’
Tom McClintock: "standing up for the constitutional rights of every American"
Michael Savage: "We are all Snowden"
Glenn Greenwald:


Foes:
======
Dick Cheney
Diane Feinstein: "I think it's an act of treason"
Eric Holder: "The safety of the American people and the safety of people who reside in allied nations have been put at risk as a result of these leaks,”
John McCain: "treasonous"
John Stossel
Peter King: "He is a person who has betrayed this country, violated his oath and caused incalculable damage to our national security,"
Bill Nelson: What Edward Snowden did amounts to an Act of Treason,"
John Boehner: "traitor,"
John Bolton: "the worst form of treason."
Tim Pawlenty: Snowden's 'A Traitor,' Not a Whistleblower
Jeffrey Toobin: Garbage Mouthpiece CNN
Nancy Pelosi (D-CA): Snowden should be prosecuted

add Thomas Massie to the friends

kcchiefs6465
06-21-2013, 11:31 AM
My favorite quote of Glenn Greenwald was when he summed the program up for Mika Brzezinski. "The government talking points you are reading are misleading and false." You can add her to the list of foes.

There was someone who called Judge Nap radical when he was debating Stossel, he needs to go on foes.

Michele Bachman said something along the lines of Snowden being treasonous. (didn't much care to listen to her exact words)

Obama, Jay Carney, James Clapper need to go onto the list of foes. The head of the CFR needs to go on that list.

Anderson Cooper was fair to Glenn Greenwald and seemed genuinely concerned of the government's overreach. Tapper.. I think his last name is was fair to Greenwald.

Daniel Ellsberg roasted Piers Morgan, he is an ally. Piers Morgan would rather speak to that one bimbo from Hollywood, he never should have been taken off the list of foes.

If you look through the interviews Gleen Greenwald has done you will find numerous people to put on the foe list. Also Bobbyw's chick friend needs to go there as well. She wrote a book so I guess her opinion matters.....

I can't remember what Maher said. He was upset IIRC but with everything else he has said he is hardly an ally. Perhaps you should make clear note that this is only about the NSA's massive surveillance.

limequat
06-21-2013, 11:31 AM
WHo's updating the list? Gonna be a sticky? It should, because everything else revolves around this one HUGE single violation of the US Constitution/Rights

So far, I'm just updating my post with the people that are suggested. Sticky would be nice, I'm with you. This ONE thing pretty much tells me if the person is pro-liberty or pro-government.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-21-2013, 11:34 AM
So far, I'm just updating my post with the people that are suggested. Sticky would be nice, I'm with you. This ONE thing pretty much tells me if the person is pro-liberty or pro-government.



It may also tell you how culpable they feel themselves to be. Some of these people are guilty of crimes for which they can be prosecuted. (yeah, I know, but just saying...)

kcchiefs6465
06-21-2013, 11:37 AM
So far, I'm just updating my post with the people that are suggested. Sticky would be nice, I'm with you. This ONE thing pretty much tells me if the person is pro-liberty or pro-government.
This is a very easy issue to be on the right side of. Those not, are exceptionally bad. Anderson Cooper was upset about this. He is hardly pro-liberty.

If someone was labelled pro-liberty before they should be taken off the list. But just because someone is against this one issue doesn't mean they are pro-liberty. Michael Moore wants to take all your guns etc. It really doesn't matter to me that he has taken the common sensical position on this. Though any support is appreciated for Snowden's sake.

And I'm not too sure, but I'd bet quite a few on that list condemned Bradley Manning. That should eliminate them by default.

cajuncocoa
06-21-2013, 11:45 AM
I would be cautious about designating some of those people as "friends". There are a few on that list that make me wonder how they would feel about Snowden if there was a Republican sitting in the Oval Office. Glenn Beck comes to mind. I can go ahead and give him a gold star on this issue, as AF said...but I'm not ready to call him a "friend".

In much the same way, many of the Lefties on the enemies list would be cheering for the guy if a Republican was POTUS. Political opportunists, all.

CaseyJones
06-21-2013, 11:49 AM
ya I don't trust beck either, in two weeks he will probably flip on it

limequat
06-21-2013, 11:51 AM
Added a disclaimer for the pedants :)

georgiaboy
06-21-2013, 12:02 PM
Talk Radio Heads:
Rush Limbaugh - foe, right?
Sean Hannity - friend, IIRC
Mark Levin - anyone know?
Laura Ingraham - ?
Dennis Prager - foe
Michael Medved - ?
Erick Erickson - ?

EBounding
06-21-2013, 12:03 PM
For Stossel you could put, "I just don't care".

limequat
06-21-2013, 12:16 PM
For fun:

http://treeofmamre.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/not-verizon-customers.jpg

limequat
06-21-2013, 12:22 PM
http://i.imgur.com/02BnFQg.jpg

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-21-2013, 12:32 PM
This is a very easy issue to be on the right side of. Those not, are exceptionally bad. Anderson Cooper was upset about this. He is hardly pro-liberty.

If someone was labelled pro-liberty before they should be taken off the list. But just because someone is against this one issue doesn't mean they are pro-liberty. Michael Moore wants to take all your guns etc. It really doesn't matter to me that he has taken the common sensical position on this. Though any support is appreciated for Snowden's sake.

And I'm not too sure, but I'd bet quite a few on that list condemned Bradley Manning. That should eliminate them by default.


Eliminate them from what? I suppose you mean "pro-liberty." This is exactly why we should try to frame this as "pro-spying" or "pro 4th & 5th amendment" instead of trying to label them as "pro-liberty" or other things. It looks like we have a chance to build a coalition here. Let's not blow it by adding new things in. I would be really friggin thrilled to have a coalition against blanket surveillance. It's a start. If we can stop one such heinous tool from advancing by coalescing against it with others whom we might usually disagree with, I don't see why we wouldn't have that as a reasonable goal, and something worth cooperation.

satchelmcqueen
06-21-2013, 12:38 PM
read the lyrics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRzxEh13LTI

kcchiefs6465
06-21-2013, 12:44 PM
Eliminate them from what? I suppose you mean "pro-liberty." This is exactly why we should try to frame this as "pro-spying" or "pro 4th & 5th amendment" instead of trying to label them as "pro-liberty" or other things. It looks like we have a chance to build a coalition here. Let's not blow it by adding new things in. I would be really friggin thrilled to have a coalition against blanket surveillance. It's a start. If we can stop one such heinous tool from advancing by coalescing against it with others whom we might usually disagree with, I don't see why we wouldn't have that as a reasonable goal, and something worth cooperation.
It would eliminate them from me ever taking them seriously, just as an aside. I hear what you're saying. This issue is so simple and so clear cut that I really can't understand how you end up on the wrong side of it. To label someone pro-liberty or a friend simply because they are against the government collecting every single piece of data on you they can would seem a little naive. I am glad they are on the right side of this, I am glad it is getting attention, at the least for Snowden's sake, but Bradley Manning was left naked in a cell for how long? John Kirakou and many other still in prison. While they may be on the right side of the particular issue of blanket spying (as I said I don't know how you couldn't be) they are definitely not friends towards the other whistleblowers or American heroes. Hell many will call Manning a traitor and Snowden a hero in the same breath. Hardly consistent and they should noted as what they are: inconsistent media propagandists, cowards, traitors to the Constitution, and/or Socialists.

I personally don't respect them. Not that I don't appreciate the common sensical stance they took. Snowden should be treated a little better than Manning because of it.

newbitech
06-21-2013, 12:54 PM
I really like The Judge's take. Clearly defines my sentiment.

Judge Napolitano: ""He also took an oath to uphold the Constitution and that is a higher obligation. ... He chose which oath to comply"

AuH20
06-21-2013, 12:56 PM
It would eliminate them from me ever taking them seriously, just as an aside. I hear what you're saying. This issue is so simple and so clear cut that I really can't understand how you end up on the wrong side of it. To label someone pro-liberty or a friend simply because they are against the government collecting every single piece of data on you they can would seem a little naive. I am glad they are on the right side of this, I am glad it is getting attention, at the least for Snowden's sake, but Bradley Manning was left naked in a cell for how long? John Kirakou and many other still in prison. While they may be on the right side of the particular issue of blanket spying (as I said I don't know how you couldn't be) they are definitely not friends towards the other whistleblowers or American heroes. Hell many will call Manning a traitor and Snowden a hero in the same breath. Hardly consistent and they should noted as what they are: inconsistent media propagandists, cowards, traitors to the Constitution, and/or Socialists.

I personally don't respect them. Not that I don't appreciate the common sensical stance they took. Snowden should be treated a little better than Manning because of it.

Manning willfully signed the incontrovertible UCMJ when he entered the military. I think that's why he was viewed in a harsher light than Snowden.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-21-2013, 01:00 PM
It would eliminate them from me ever taking them seriously, just as an aside. I hear what you're saying. This issue is so simple and so clear cut that I really can't understand how you end up on the wrong side of it. To label someone pro-liberty or a friend simply because they are against the government collecting every single piece of data on you they can would seem a little naive. I am glad they are on the right side of this, I am glad it is getting attention, at the least for Snowden's sake, but Bradley Manning was left naked in a cell for how long? John Kirakou and many other still in prison. While they may be on the right side of the particular issue of blanket spying (as I said I don't know how you couldn't be) they are definitely not friends towards the other whistleblowers or American heroes. Hell many will call Manning a traitor and Snowden a hero in the same breath. Hardly consistent and they should noted as what they are: inconsistent media propagandists, cowards, traitors to the Constitution, and/or Socialists.

I personally don't respect them. Not that I don't appreciate the common sensical stance they took. Snowden should be treated a little better than Manning because of it.


Oh, I agree, believe me. But when someone is on the right side of something, let's let them be there, and let's agree with them. We don't need to agree further, but let's agree on what we agree on. If we gain ground on a single issue, particularly right now, let's take it and run with it.

cajuncocoa
06-21-2013, 01:10 PM
when someone is on the right side of something, let's let them be there, and let's agree with them. We don't need to agree further, but let's agree on what we agree on. If we gain ground on a single issue, particularly right now, let's take it and run with it.

Exactly the point I made in one of my last posts in the Cruz/WMD thread. Agree or disagree on the issue, but don't rush to embrace the person who agrees with you as a friend, or as a pro-liberty candidate/activist. They may stab you in the back on another issue down the road.

kcchiefs6465
06-21-2013, 01:18 PM
Manning willfully signed the incontrovertible UCMJ when he entered the military. I think that's why he was viewed in a harsher light than Snowden.
I'm not too well versed on the UCMJ so I think I kind of miss their point. Can you elaborate on what route Manning should have gone? As others have stated, drone pilots, soldiers on the ground, when concerns are voiced, innocent people being killed or rights violated it is written off by their superiors. One case I remember off of the top of my head is the article of where the drone pilot was sure that a child was killed by the missile he launched. His superior told him that it was a dog. He told him firmly again after the operator insisted that it was a child. I've read other articles of people being ran over by the convoys and the soldier's concerned dismissed similarly. My impression is that they don't really care about people's rights and they surely don't care about the soldier's concerns. Especially if it is going to cause a scandal. I have never served but that is the impression I get from what I read and hear. Maybe someone who served in combat could offer their opinion on this and whether or not they believe that their superiors would particularly care if a soldier came to them and he saw something unimaginable. I could imagine them trying to condole the soldier but aside from that I don't particularly believe any action would be taken.

Manning did a great service leaking what he did. He showed people what was really happening. I see very little difference with Manning and Snowden. Did Snowden not sign a similar agreement comparable to the UCMJ? Or was his simply a confidentiality agreement?

AuH20
06-21-2013, 01:22 PM
I'm not too well versed on the UCMJ so I think I kind of miss their point. Can you elaborate on what route Manning should have gone? As others have stated, drone pilots, soldiers on the ground, when concerns are voiced, innocent people being killed or rights violated it is written off by their superiors. One case I remember off of the top of my head is the article of where the drone pilot was sure that a child was killed by the missile he launched. His superior told him that it was a dog. He told him firmly again after the operator insisted that it was a child. I've read other articles of people being ran over by the convoys and the soldier's concerned dismissed similarly. My impression is that they don't really care about people's rights and they surely don't care about the soldier's concerns. Especially if it is going to cause a scandal. I have never served but that is the impression I get from what I read and hear. Maybe someone who served in combat could offer their opinion on this and whether or not they believe that their superiors would particularly care if a soldier came to them and he saw something unimaginable. I could imagine them trying to condole the soldier but aside from that I don't particularly believe any action would be taken.

Manning did a great service leaking what he did. He showed people what was really happening. I see very little difference with Manning and Snowden. Did Snowden not sign a similar agreement comparable to the UCMJ? Or was his simply a confidentiality agreement?

I'm not questioning Manning's reasons. I'm just telling you that a breach of the UCMJ is viewed differently by the general public, since military matters are viewed through a very black and white prism, due to the rigidly team oriented, almost communistic makeup of the military.

HOLLYWOOD
06-21-2013, 02:10 PM
More propagandists against freedom...

Richard N. Haass Condemns Edward Snowden for NSA Leaks
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nMxY7m6gFqw/UbUIapuGh2I/AAAAAAAAErk/N9pg5q4AFC4/s1600/haass.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nMxY7m6gFqw/UbUIapuGh2I/AAAAAAAAErk/N9pg5q4AFC4/s1600/haass.jpg)
This is what Richard N. Haass, President of the Council on Foreign Relations says about Edward Snowden the whistle-blower who exposed Obama's over use of NSA's PRISM program on all U.S. citizens.
Via Twitter -
Richard N. Haass - "why is media using sympathetic word "whistle-blower" 4 Edward #Snowden, who leaked secret #NSA program? He broke the law & made us less safe.

Add these clowns to the very bad list: former CIA directors James Woolsey and David Petraeus

JustinTime
06-21-2013, 04:20 PM
More propagandists against freedom...

Richard N. Haass Condemns Edward Snowden for NSA Leaks
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nMxY7m6gFqw/UbUIapuGh2I/AAAAAAAAErk/N9pg5q4AFC4/s1600/haass.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nMxY7m6gFqw/UbUIapuGh2I/AAAAAAAAErk/N9pg5q4AFC4/s1600/haass.jpg)
This is what Richard N. Haass, President of the Council on Foreign Relations says about Edward Snowden the whistle-blower who exposed Obama's over use of NSA's PRISM program on all U.S. citizens.
Via Twitter -
Richard N. Haass - "why is m[COLOR=#37404e][FONT=lucida grande]edia using sympathetic word "whistle-blower" 4 Edward #Snowden, who leaked secret #NSA program? He broke the law & made us less safe.

I expect nothing less from anyone connected with the Council on Foreign Relations.