Amazon.com shocking hypocrisy

[qh4dotcom]

State legislation requests them to collect sales taxes = Big problem......so big they have to terminate their associates so they don't have to collect sales taxes.

Federal legislation requests them to collect sales taxes = No problem, they strongly support it.....they will welcome back their terminated associates and collect sales taxes if it gets passed.

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/22620375/amazon-drops-minnesota-associates-internet-tax



NOTICE SENT TO AMAZON ASSOCIATES IN MINNESOTA

We are writing from the Amazon Associates Program to notify you that your Associates account will be closed and your Amazon Services LLC Associates Program Operating Agreement will be terminated effective June 30, 2013. This is a direct result of the unconstitutional Minnesota state tax collection legislation passed by the state legislature and signed by Governor Dayton on May 23, 2013, with an effective date of July 1, 2013. As a result, we will no longer pay any advertising fees for customers referred to an Amazon Site after June 30 nor will we accept new applications for the Associates Program from Minnesota residents.

Please be assured that all qualifying advertising fees earned prior to July 1, 2013, will be processed and paid in full in accordance with your regular advertising fee schedule. Based on your account closure date of June 30, 2013, any final payments will be paid by August 30, 2013.

While we oppose this unconstitutional state legislation, we strongly support the federal Marketplace Fairness Act now pending before Congress. Congressional legislation is the only way to create a simplified, constitutional framework to resolve interstate sales tax issues and it would allow us to re-open our Associates program to Minnesota residents.

We thank you for being part of the Amazon Associates Program, and look forward to re-opening our program when Congress passes the Marketplace Fairness Act.

Sincerely,

The Amazon Associates Team

[CPUd]

Amazon pay is shit anyway. You could do better with EPN, and that's not saying much.

[TheTexan]

Centralized oppression is efficient oppression

[angelatc]

But but but Ron Paul earns money if we buy through their site using his link! That should more than make up for their lack of political support, or even consistency.

[FrankRep]

Amazon.com is getting punished across the board so they might as well restore the previous associates. It makes sense and I applaud Amazon.com for making the right business decision.

[qh4dotcom]

Amazon.com is getting punished across the board so they might as well restore the previous associates. It makes sense and I applaud Amazon.com for making the right business decision.

You don't think they are being hypocrites? See post #1

[kahless]

Amazon.com is getting punished across the board so they might as well restore the previous associates. It makes sense and I applaud Amazon.com for making the right business decision.

Punished, really? They used to fight these things and then realized they could make a fortune by getting on board. The average Joe still sees Amazon as a champion of fighting against the man from their efforts years ago. The reality is they have been lobbying and testifying before Congress for "taxation without representation" with the so called "Marketplace Fairness Act" since it will be a billion dollar pay day for them.

They are so large they can make a profit off of the interest float and providing a sales tax collection services to small business to collect sales tax in 9600 US jurisdictions if they can get it passed. This is corporation at it's finest. The little guy will be unable to compete on a national level by having to manage 9600 tax jurisdictions thus forced to use a service like Amazon.

Fuck Amazon.com and their douchebag CEO!

[FrankRep]

You don't think they are being hypocrites? See post #1

Not at all. The federal government just screwed Amazon.com. Might as well restore California since Amazon.com is screwed anyway.

[FrankRep]

Punished, really? They used to fight these things and then realized they could make a fortune by getting on board. The average Joe still sees Amazon as a champion of fighting against the man from their efforts years ago. The reality is they have been lobbying and testifying before Congress for "taxation without representation" with the so called "Marketplace Fairness Act" since it will be a billion dollar pay day for them.

They have are so large they can make a profit off of the interest float and providing a sales tax collection services to small business to collect sales tax in 9600 US jurisdictions if they can get it passed. This is corporation at it's finest. The little guy will be unable to compete on a national level by having to manage 9600 tax jurisdictions thus forced to use a service like Amazon.

Fuck Amazon.com and their douchebag CEO!

The government is the problem, not amazon.com.

[qh4dotcom]

Not at all. The federal government just screwed Amazon.com. Might as well restore California since Amazon.com is screwed anyway.

Hmmm....federal legislation just screwed me, so I am going to strongly support it.

Makes perfect sense (sarcasm)

[kahless]

The government is the problem, not amazon.com.

So screw the American revolution and bring on taxation without representation? This would be like Ron Paul giving up and turning Communist since he got sick of fighting US tax laws.

Amazon.com and government ARE the problem. The liberty movement should be politically at war with Amazon.com.

[heavenlyboy34]

So screw the American revolution and bring on taxation without representation? This would be like Ron Paul giving up and turning Communist since he got sick of fighting US tax laws.

Amazon.com and government ARE the problem. The liberty movement should be politically at war with Amazon.com.
You go ahead. I am love Amazon. :) I am not going to make a kneejerk decision about this. We'll see how things turn out. If the cost/benefit ratio no longer works in my favor, I'll stop doing business with them till they fix it.

[FrankRep]

You go ahead. I am love Amazon. :) I am not going to make a kneejerk decision about this. We'll see how things turn out. If the cost/benefit ratio no longer works in my favor, I'll stop doing business with them till they fix it.

I'm always impressed by how cheap Amazon is compared to other book stores. Selective taxes on Internet based companies gives an unfair market advantage.

[kahless]

You go ahead. I am love Amazon. :) I am not going to make a kneejerk decision about this. We'll see how things turn out. If the cost/benefit ratio no longer works in my favor, I'll stop doing business with them till they fix it.

Amazon testifies before Congress to deny us taxation with representation for their benefit and to crush their small business competition using government policy they lobbied for. But as long as they provide good prices you are okay with that?

[FrankRep]

Amazon testifies before Congress to deny us taxation with representation for their benefit and to crush their small business competition using government policy they lobbied for. But as long as they provide good prices you are okay with that?

Amazon.com is the one being punished, they're forced to charge a tax and other Internet companies charge no tax. This hurts Amazon.com and gives other companies an advantage.

Again, blame the tax system, not the company trying to make a profit.

[heavenlyboy34]

Amazon testifies before Congress to deny us taxation with representation for their benefit and to crush their small business competition using government policy they lobbied for. But as long as they provide good prices you are okay with that?
Could you link to proof of that claim? This thread is the first I've heard of it. But purposeful damage to other business/collusion with government are costs (part of the cost/benefit ratio) and would affect my decision.

[kahless]

Amazon.com is the one being punished, they're forced to charge a tax and other Internet companies charge no tax. This hurts Amazon.com and gives other companies an advantage.

Again, blame the tax system, not the company trying to make a profit.

The government treats me unfairly in one state, so I demand that the government treat everyone unfairly not just in every state but be subject to 9600 separate governments.

My neighbor does not like that the cops beat him, so he demands that the cops beat everyone in the neighborhood. I do not blame him, it is only fair, right?

I do not know what it is with the love of Amazon.com by people. If it was any other person or corporation you would be outraged at the hypocrisy of Amazon.com.

You are also buying into the Amazon.com propaganda. Amazon.com is demanding that the fundamental laws since the founding of this nation are changed to benefit them at the expense of everyone else.

[TheTexan]

IMO, Amazon's core business model is a glorious tribute to free market capitalism

Granted, some of their side business (selling data to the NSA), is highly unsavory and there is no excuse for that

[green73]

The government is the problem, not amazon.com.

Thank you.

Amazon is AMAZING company. I love Amazon!!!!

I can't stand pseudo-libertarians who rail on private companies. If you don't like them, don't buy from them!

[angelatc]

Thank you.

Amazon is AMAZING company. I love Amazon!!!!

I can't stand pseudo-libertarians who rail on private companies. If you don't like them, don't buy from them!

Funny, because I can't stand pseudo-libertarians who bail on their principles when their favorite supplier lobbies against them.

[heavenlyboy34]

The government treats me unfairly in one state, so I demand that the government treat everyone unfairly not just in every state but be subject to 9600 separate governments.

My neighbor does not like that the cops beat him, so he demands that the cops beat everyone in the neighborhood. I do not blame him, it is only fair, right?

I do not know what it is with the love of Amazon.com by people. If it was any other person or corporation you would be outraged at the hypocrisy of Amazon.com.

You are also buying into the Amazon.com propaganda. Amazon.com is demanding that the fundamental laws since the founding of this nation are changed to benefit them at the expense of everyone else.
I only like amazon because of my shopping experience there. Nothing political for me. I also haven't yet found an online merchant offering the value and selection of amazon. If you have alternatives, I'm interested. I'm not particularly attached to amazon and am willing to switch to a better merchant.

ETA: still awaiting the proof I asked of you in my last post.

[kahless]

Thank you.

Amazon is AMAZING company. I love Amazon!!!!

I can't stand pseudo-libertarians who rail on private companies. If you don't like them, don't buy from them!

If you love big government and Corporatism so much then why are you here? My problem is with Corporatism which Amazon represents. Amazon could not beat unfair tax polices so instead of continuing to fight it they became part of the problem.

If you still support Amazon, you are part of the problem since you support Corporatism and do not believe in free markets.

[FrankRep]

Funny, because I can't stand pseudo-libertarians who bail on their principles when their favorite supplier lobbies against them.
I support abolishing taxes, but I don't support only punishing big online retailers like Amazon.com.

[FrankRep]

If you love big government and Corporatism so much then why are you here? My problem is with Corporatism which Amazon represents. Amazon could not beat unfair tax polices so instead of continuing to fight it they became part of the problem.

If you still support Amazon, you are part of the problem since you support Corporatism and do not believe in free markets.
I don't support punishing big online retailers.

[green73]

If you love big government and Corporatism so much then why are you here? My problem is with Corporatism which Amazon represents. Amazon could not beat unfair tax polices so instead of continuing to fight it they became part of the problem.

If you still support Amazon, you are part of the problem since you support Corporatism and do not believe in free markets.

Uh huh.

[kahless]

I don't support punishing big online retailers.

Nor should you. Just because Amazon got punished does not give them the right to lobby for tax policy to punish everyone else.

[kahless]

IMO, Amazon's core business model was a glorious tribute to free market capitalism

Granted, some of their side business (selling data to the NSA), is highly unsavory and there is no excuse for that

I fixed that for you.

[angelatc]

I support abolishing taxes, but I don't support only punishing big online retailers like Amazon.com.


Which is yet another reason why the liberals are winning the battles. They don't hesitate to boycott and berate retailers who don't support their politics.

[angelatc]

I only like amazon because of my shopping experience there. Nothing political for me. I also haven't yet found an online merchant offering the value and selection of amazon. If you have alternatives, I'm interested. I'm not particularly attached to amazon and am willing to switch to a better merchant.

ETA: still awaiting the proof I asked of you in my last post.

I think it depends on what you're buying. I rarely buy from Amazon, because I can almost always find the same item cheaper someplace else. But that doesn't mean I can always find that item at one other place in particular.

In fact, Amazon just added some new stuff that is "Add On" only. Cheap stuff that you can't buy unless you spend $25 on Amazon. I went to Google, and found about 100 other places selling the same item for about a buck less, with no minimum purchase required.

On the other hand, as a seller, I can almost always sell my items on Amazon for more than I can on eBay. But I'm boycotting Amazon for a while, until the battle to nationalize state sales taxes is lost.

[kahless]

I only like amazon because of my shopping experience there. Nothing political for me. I also haven't yet found an online merchant offering the value and selection of amazon. If you have alternatives, I'm interested. I'm not particularly attached to amazon and am willing to switch to a better merchant.

ETA: still awaiting the proof I asked of you in my last post.

Took me a bit to find it since all the links I posted in the forum a few months back are now broken by the forum software.

Amazon Testifies in Support of Federal Marketplace Fairness Legislation Before the Senate Commerce Committee
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=176060&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1720649&highlight


We believe that, instead, Congress should enact S. 1832, the Marketplace Fairness Act, to authorize the states to require out-of-state retailers to collect sales tax at the time of purchase and remit those taxes on behalf of consumers.

Ron Paul: Let's Call This What It Is—An Internet Tax Mandate
http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-the-senate-have-passed-an-online-sales-tax/ron-paul-lets-call-this-what-it-isan-internet-tax-mandate


The underlying Act has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with enriching large companies and bloated state governments, while harming small businesses, taxpayers, and consumers.
....
The Internet Tax Mandate also violates the original purpose of the Commerce Clause, which was to guarantee free trade among the states. Instead, the bill would allow states to levy taxes on goods crossing into their state, which is not what the Founding Fathers intended. Why should California be able to force a business in Texas to collect and pay California sales tax?


RON PAUL: The Internet Tax Mandate Is Backwards Thinking
http://www.businessinsider.com/ron-paul-internet-tax-mandate-2013-5


These businesses will lack effective ability to oppose the tax increases — a form of taxation without representation.


Amazon’s Love Note to Senate Backs Sales-Tax Proposal
http://allthingsd.com/20130214/amazons-love-note-to-senate-backs-sales-tax-proposal/
February 14, 2013 at 12:12 pm PT


Amazon sent a love letter to the U.S. Senate on Valentine’s Day, thanking senators for a proposal that could put to rest the company’s long-standing sales-tax issues.
....
In a letter, Paul Misener, Amazon’s VP for global public policy, said, “I am writing to thank you for your bill, which will allow states with simplified rules to require sales tax collection by out-of-state sellers who choose to make sales to in-state buyers.”

[kahless]

who rail on private companies. If you don't like them, don't buy from them!


If you actually read the thread and what I posted, my issue is not as you put it being against "private companies" or that I should simply "not buy from Amazon". It is Amazon's efforts to pass national legislation that effects all of us directly so what we would have in effect is "taxation without representation".

If you do not understand what Corporatism is then search Ron Paul and Corporatism. Corporatism is not Capitalism. Corporatism is the destruction of the free market and the creation of corporate monopolies achieved through the laws such as the Amazon's proposed Marketplace Fairness Act.

[FrankRep]

If you actually read the thread and what I posted, my issue is not as you put it being against "private companies" or that I should simply "not buy from Amazon". It is Amazon's efforts to pass national legislation that effects all of us directly so what we would have in effect is "taxation without representation".

If you do not understand what Corporatism is then search Ron Paul and Corporatism. Corporatism is not Capitalism. Corporatism is the destruction of the free market and the creation of corporate monopolies achieved through the laws such as the Amazon's proposed Marketplace Fairness Act.

This is about unfair tax laws that hurt big online retailers.

You're attacking sites like Amazon under the banner of "anti-Corportism," but this fight isn't about Corportism -- it's about unfair tax laws.

[heavenlyboy34]

I've been eyeing an iaito blade on amazon. It's going to be tough to beat the price, but I'll keep looking. Weapons specialists seem quite pricey. :eek:

[kahless]

This is about unfair tax laws that hurt big online retailers.

You're attacking sites like Amazon under the banner of "anti-Corportism," but this fight isn't about Corportism -- it's about unfair tax laws.

You keep missing the point of what Amazon proposes as a solution is Corporatism. It benefits government and themselves at the expense of everyone else. If you do not like the unfair tax laws then you fight them rather than than fight for legislation that expands the governments tax reach and that eliminates representation.

So on one hand you are against unfair tax laws but you support a company that is lobbying for legislation to make the tax laws not only more unfair but eliminate representation at the same time.

The tax compliance will be devastating to small business. Just imagine the legal expertise and financial resources to deal with tax compliance in any one of the 9600 US jurisdictions that files a tax audit against your business. Amazon.com knows most companies do not have the resources nor have enough revenue to make it back on the interest float. So they expect this to be their "billion dollar" pay day in providing this service or effectively eliminating their competition. This all with the help of government through Amazons "Marketplace Fairness Act" legislation.

The Marketplace Fairness Act will bankrupt small businesses
http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/04/the-marketplace-fairness-act-will-bankrupt-small-businesses/


In a recent letter to the House Judiciary Committee, we highlighted that these costs range from $20,000 to $300,000 in the first year alone, costs that exceed the annual profits of many of our companies.
....
For example, in Wisconsin, U.S. flags and Wisconsin state flags are sold tax-free, while other flags are subject to sales tax. However, the rules are different when a flag is bundled with a flagpole. There are thousands of examples like this; each jurisdiction has its own idiosyncratic tax laws. A printout of the rates and exemptions for all jurisdictions is 811 pages long — four inches tall when stacked.

If the House passes the MFA, audits will commence. These audits will come from states where we have no physical presence, no political representation and no right to vote. ..

Penalties for sales tax noncompliance tend to be onerous, and most states can hold a company’s “responsible person(s)” personally liable for any unpaid sales tax liabilities. A state can confiscate our personal possessions in order to collect unpaid sales tax owed by our companies. Unlike Wal-Mart, Amazon.com, Best Buy, Home Depot and other big retailers, we do not have armies of accountants and tax attorneys to deal with costly and time-consuming audits from every state. Yet, one innocent mistake could put us out of business and personally bankrupt us.

[angelatc]

I've been eyeing an iaito blade on amazon. It's going to be tough to beat the price, but I'll keep looking. Weapons specialists seem quite pricey. :eek:

Everything local seems more expensive. Also, things that come from specialists always seem to cost more. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have any expensive hobbies. Although I wouldn't mind finding a good deal on a wood chipper, so I can make my own mulch.

I can buy a whole set of diamond tipped Dremel tools for the same price I would pay for a single one here at the hardware store. But the price differences are disappearing.

[Natural Citizen]

but this fight isn't about Corportism -- it's about unfair tax laws.

Ah, frank, frank, frank.

Frank, do you support the corporation assuming and performing the actions of government processes? In other words, is it your position that the old of, by and for speak is no longer practical to remain in the interest of the natural citizen and is more practical to remain representative of, by and for corporate interest?

It seems like it when I read a lot of your stuff.

I mean, i don't know. I don't really feel like typing but I suppose I could take the time to scribble up half a book regarding why you are absolutely wrong. And dangerous to liberty in the interest of representation for the people in general.

I do recall this discussion here some place when the question was first raised.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

I don't support punishing big online retailers.


I don't support giving them advantages over small online retailers.

Ever seen that model happen in the offline world? It has, does, and will continue.

[angelatc]

This is about unfair tax laws that hurt big online retailers.

You're attacking sites like Amazon under the banner of "anti-Corportism," but this fight isn't about Corportism -- it's about unfair tax laws.


Amazon and the other behemoths lobbying for this change are indeed using the government to economically punish their smaller competitors. It absolutely is corporatism.

[Natural Citizen]

Of course, one could agree that in effect the battle isn't one of corporatism. Has always been one of citizenship. Heck, everyone knows that.

[sluggo]

Amazon closed affiliate accounts in NC a few years ago for the same reason.

I agree with the OP.

[FrankRep]

Amazon and the other behemoths lobbying for this change are indeed using the government to economically punish their smaller competitors. It absolutely is corporatism.

Right now the law is hurting Amazon.com. Ofcourse they want to change the law.

[FrankRep]

Amazon closed affiliate accounts in NC a few years ago for the same reason.

I agree with the OP.

North Carolina took a swing at Amazon through Tax Laws. Amazon fought back.

[green73]

http://occupywallst.org/forum/

[FrankRep]

I guess some people here fail to realize that its those states that smacked Amazon with the sales tax that are the ones really at fault. That has started a chain reaction that went to the federal level.

I don't blame Amazon for reacting to the unfair taxes.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Right now the law is hurting Amazon.com. Ofcourse they want to change the law.

And in the event of changing that law, it makes everybody less free. Tell me why Amazon shouldn't be criticized again?

The correct solution is to lobby to eliminate whatever unfair regulations Amazon has to abide by, not punish other companies "equally".

[FrankRep]

And in the event of changing that law, it makes everybody less free. Tell me why Amazon shouldn't be criticized again?

The correct solution is to lobby to eliminate whatever unfair regulations Amazon has to abide by, not punish other companies "equally".

Right now companies are being punished unequally. That's not cool.

[kahless]

Right now companies are being punished unequally. That's not cool.


And in the event of changing that law, it makes everybody less free. Tell me why Amazon shouldn't be criticized again?

The correct solution is to lobby to eliminate whatever unfair regulations Amazon has to abide by, not punish other companies "equally".

I and a number of others have now have pointed this out for you. How about it Frank?

[Natural Citizen]

Amazon was the one lobbying for the internet tax in the first place.

[mad cow]

Virginia is bordered by 5 States and Washington D.C.
If I drive to any of these places,I pay the sales tax there,not Va. sales tax.
If I buy from a store in Va.,I pay Va. sales tax
If I order from a Va. based company over the internet or mail order,I pay Va. sales tax.

If sales taxes are to exist,the correct answer would be you owe sales tax to the State where the company is located,not your State.If you ordered from Amazon,you would owe Washington State sales tax.

This would have the benefit of driving all large internet sales companies to low or no sales tax States or causing High tax States to lower their sales tax or see large businesses move elsewhere.

[Ender]

The government treats me unfairly in one state, so I demand that the government treat everyone unfairly not just in every state but be subject to 9600 separate governments.

My neighbor does not like that the cops beat him, so he demands that the cops beat everyone in the neighborhood. I do not blame him, it is only fair, right?

I do not know what it is with the love of Amazon.com by people. If it was any other person or corporation you would be outraged at the hypocrisy of Amazon.com.

You are also buying into the Amazon.com propaganda. Amazon.com is demanding that the fundamental laws since the founding of this nation are changed to benefit them at the expense of everyone else.

What planet do you live on? The fundamental laws since the founding of this nation have not existed since the War Between the States.

You got a solution? Then do something about it.

[sluggo]

North Carolina took a swing at Amazon through Tax Laws. Amazon fought back.

Yes, and I didn't fault Amazon when they ended the program.

What they are doing now is different.

[FrankRep]

Yes, and I didn't fault Amazon when they ended the program.

What they are doing now is different.

Unfair taxes are cutting into their profit margins. They are leveling the playing field.

[kahless]

I am just surprised and disappointed to see in an RPF forum about 40% opposing free market Capitalism and supporting Corporatism. I guess RPF has its fair share of moderates and Progressives.

What Amazon.com is now doing is exactly what Ron warned and preached against.

[Natural Citizen]

I am just surprised and disappointed to see in an RPF forum about 40% opposing free market Capitalism and supporting Corporatism. I guess RPF has its fair share of moderates and Progressives.

What Amazon.com is now doing is exactly what Ron warned and preached against.

Absolutely. Not limited to Amazon either. Was/is tremendous support here for allowing Monsanto to assume the role of scribbling up legislation that adversley affects the well being of the natural citizen.

[green73]

And in the event of changing that law, it makes everybody less free. Tell me why Amazon shouldn't be criticized again?

The correct solution is to lobby to eliminate whatever unfair regulations Amazon has to abide by, not punish other companies "equally".

Does Amazon make laws?

When you're a company employing godknows how many thousands of people, it probably sounds pretty good to you to support legislation that helps your bottom line. It's very easily to criticize this from the sidelines when you got nothing really riding on it. Of course without the goddamn gov't there wouldn't be any of this. But let's not focus on that.

[green73]

Ooooo the evil corporation! Amazon must surely own media companies and defense contractors and gets bailouts when shit goes wrong. Fuck them man. Occupy the evil corporation.

[kahless]

Does Amazon make laws?

When you're a company employing godknows how many thousands of people, it probably sounds pretty good to you to support legislation that helps your bottom line. It's very easily to criticize this from the sidelines when you got nothing really riding on it. Of course without the goddamn gov't there wouldn't be any of this. But let's not focus on that.

If you bothered to read the thread, Amazon developed MFA with several others and then testified before Congress in support of it.

This is Amazon saying, instead of us fighting all these tax battles lets develop tax policy that puts us at an advantage over everyone else.

[kahless]

Ooooo the evil corporation! Amazon must surely own media companies and defense contractors and gets bailouts when shit goes wrong. Fuck them man. Occupy the evil corporation.

This is effectively an unneeded bailout in favor of Amazon. By forcing this unmanageable tax for all but monopolies on everyone else they literally expect to make 1 billion on the interest float and providing tax compliance services.

Now that Amazon and federal government are bed fellows they picked up government contracts like cloud services for the CIA.

[angelatc]

Right now the law is hurting Amazon.com. Ofcourse they want to change the law.

Oh bullshit.

I am not sure you understand the law. Amazon isn't lobbying to get the government to stop inflicting pain on them - they're trying to change the law to inflict pain on smaller retailers.

[angelatc]

Does Amazon make laws?

When you're a company employing godknows how many thousands of people, it probably sounds pretty good to you to support legislation that helps your bottom line. It's very easily to criticize this from the sidelines when you got nothing really riding on it. Of course without the goddamn gov't there wouldn't be any of this. But let's not focus on that.

You've just defined corporatism. And it's pretty insane to think that we are ever going to get rid of government. If that's your end game, then whatever. But waving a white flag every time it gets bigger muttering about how wonderful life would be if it didn't exist isn't helping anything.

[angelatc]

I am just surprised and disappointed to see in an RPF forum about 40% opposing free market Capitalism and supporting Corporatism. I guess RPF has its fair share of moderates and Progressives.

What Amazon.com is now doing is exactly what Ron warned and preached against.


But you don't understand. They *like* Amazon.

[green73]

This is effectively an unneeded bailout in favor of Amazon. By forcing this unmanageable tax for all but monopolies on everyone else they literally expect to make 1 billion on the interest float and providing tax compliance services.

Now that Amazon and federal government are bed fellows they picked up government contracts like cloud services for the CIA.

Amazon "demanded", "forced" blah blah fucking blah. The gov't makes the laws. The US gov't is the greatest leviathan the word has ever known. Try being an enterprise that serves humanity on a mass scale in that fascist environment. You have to play ball with leviathan or it will eat you. But let's focus on the victim, the one who has actually contributed to society. Not THE GOVERNMENT.

[green73]

You've just defined corporatism. And it's pretty insane to think that we are ever going to get rid of government. If that's your end game, then whatever. But waving a white flag every time it gets bigger muttering about how wonderful life would be if it didn't exist isn't helping anything.

It was pretty insane in 1830 to think we'd ever get rid of slavery or have steel horses pulling the plows. What the fuck do you know about the future?

[TheTexan]

You've just defined corporatism. And it's pretty insane to think that we are ever going to get rid of government. If that's your end game, then whatever. But waving a white flag every time it gets bigger muttering about how wonderful life would be if it didn't exist isn't helping anything.

It wasn't too long ago that goverment was just this thing that took 1% of your crops, and sent men to war.

Nowadays government is ALL up in your shit. That's not fucking normal. This is some weird fucking phenomenon that needs to get reversed ASAP before it destroys this planet

[kahless]

But you don't understand. They *like* Amazon.

I suppose if it was any other company doing it the response may have been different. I would expect this response outside of these forums but it is disconcerting to see a few here defend Amazon when the C4L - grassroots are actively fighting Amazon's proposed internet tax.

Press Conference in Opposition to Internet Sales Taxes
http://www.campaignforliberty.org/national-blog/press-conference-in-opposition-to-internet-sales-taxes/


By Tim Shoemaker on June 18, 2013 in National Blog

JohnTatePresserThis morning, C4L President John Tate participated in a press conference with a group of freshman legislators from the House and Senate, including Senators Paul and Cruz, along with Representatives Thomas Massie (KY-4), Steve Daines (MT), Ron DeSantis (FL-6), among others.

As John mentioned in his remarks,

The Marketplace Fairness act is not about leveling the playing field between Main Street and the Internet. It is about Big Business using the strong arm of government to put their smaller competitors out of business.

Stopping the Marketplace Fairness Act is one of Campaign for Liberty’s top priorities this year and we will continue to oppose any attempt to impose more regulations and higher taxes on the American people.

It’s remarkable to see the majority of the outspoken opposition coming from the newest members of Congress, standing up to the corporate lobbyists and special interests groups from the big box retailers such as WalMart, Target, and their newest compatriot Amazon.

While it still surprises many, Amazon.com began lobbying for the so-called “Marketplace Fairness Act” after their business model changed, resulting in them having a physical presence in a majority of states. Amazon is now pushing for Internet sales taxes to establish a competitive advantage over smaller Internet start-ups.

As an interesting side note, this legislation seems to highlight a generational gap that has shown up before on tech issues: Not one Republican member of the Senate over 50 voted for the so-called “Marketplace Fairness Act” on final passage.

Despite it’s passage in the Senate, Campaign for Liberty is seeing progress in terms of halting this legislation in the House. Fifteen members of the House joined Rep. Thomas Massie in sending a letter to leadership urging them not to bring this legislation up for a vote. Today’s press conference is another step toward raising awareness about this new tax scheme and C4L will continue to reach out to millions of Americans on this issue in order to build up grassroots support for these new legislators and to further the opposition to this ill-conceived legislation.

Be sure to sign C4L’s petition to Bob Goodlatte, Eric Cantor, and John Boehner, urging House leadership to use their position to defeat this legislation.
http://www.chooseliberty.org/internet_taxh.aspx?pid=0507a


Small business owner Justin Krauss explains how the National Internet Sales Tax Mandate burdens small businesses:
By Norm Singleton on June 18, 2013 in National Blog
http://www.campaignforliberty.org/national-blog/internet-sales-taxes-a-headache-for-small-business-owners/


Each of this country’s 10,000 different taxing jurisdictions has its own laws for applying sales tax to all sorts of goods — including food, prescription drugs, non-prescription drugs, software, clothes and much more. Plus, within the same zip code, even on the same street, different tax rates can apply. I manually downloaded and printed the sales tax rates by zip code for all of the states. It’s over 38,000 lines long and 811 printed pages.

MFA proponents argue that the “free software” (paid for by the states) will make this complexity irrelevant. But the software will only provide me with rates, not product categories, and it will do nothing to help lift the time-and-money burden of submitting up to 600 tax returns per year. So much for “free.” I can use an unsubsidized software program like the one Avalara produces, which simplifies the process to some degree, but if I did that I’d have to pay Avalara a fee on every single sale I make, plus about $29 for every tax return I file. For my business, that would be $16,000 in remittance costs annually, plus thousands of dollars in transaction fees.

The problems and costs don’t end there. I scheduled two meetings with Avalara to walk me through implementation of their software. Like many other small businesses, I use the accounting software Sage 50 (formerly Peachtree). The Sage 50 platform isn’t capable of live, forced compliance, so the Avalara representatives I spoke with told me I’d have to upgrade to the Sage 100 platform in order to automate my sales tax calculations. They also said my shopping cart isn’t compatible with their program and would have to be modified. Moreover, I’d have to change my entire sales software and strategy because no multi-channel cart solutions are currently supported by their software. To integrate Avalara’s software, I’d have to spend at least $40,000 in the first year alone, and then a certain amount each year after that.

[Natural Citizen]

It wasn't too long ago that goverment was just this thing that took 1% of your crops, and sent men to war.

Nowadays government is ALL up in your shit. That's not fucking normal. This is some weird fucking phenomenon that needs to get reversed ASAP before it destroys this planet

The probem isn't that government is "all up in yer shit". It's the fact that government in it's traditional language/definition has been lost by those who historically were it's fruit. What we have now are mutli-national corporations who have hijacked personhood in whole and proceeded to enjoy the benefits of constitution and eventually representation by those who the people placed into office for their own representation. These are the actual minions who are "up in yer shit". These entities are of a broad nature ranging from defense contractors, genetic companies and just wealth of factions who have assumed/stolen the actual role of government. Legislating against the interest of the people whom government is historically derived from. Of course, those who support this fascist monopoly where the corporation merges with state to assume the role of government are going to cry foul when the people get pissed because more "government" in the traditional sense of the word means more power to the people. The living, breathing, walking and talking ones. The ones who must survive as opposed to simply grow...out of control.

As always, is a battle for citizenship and representation. For the life of me I don't understand why people won't push for an amendment to the 14th that simply and specifically defines the person as a natural person. Natural person defined properly in the 14th would shut down all of this nonsense once and for all. No reason whatsoever any entity should be overthrowing the people (government) just because they have theoretically defined themselves as persons with the gift of representation.

And the thing is that these minions know it's their only lifeline. Illegitimate as it is. Every time I read or hear some dolt lobbying for more corporate government and crying about we need less "government" it shows just how much they detest the actual people having any kind of representation from their prospective representatives. It shows that they support removing power from the people and placing it into the hands of those who simply buy themselves personhood.

I think that if people want to go around demonizing "government" then they should by default be expected to share their interpretation of what they think that actually means in this day and age in their view. It's not what it used to mean when government was accountable to those who they were elected to represent. I think maybe that fear of returning power to the living and breathing folk and taking this gift of constitution away from those whom have hijacked it are what many who profess such hatred are referencing when they throw around the term so loosely.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2h8ujX6T0A

[kahless]

Amazon "demanded", "forced" blah blah fucking blah. The gov't makes the laws. The US gov't is the greatest leviathan the word has ever known. Try being an enterprise that serves humanity on a mass scale in that fascist environment. You have to play ball with leviathan or it will eat you. But let's focus on the victim, the one who has actually contributed to society. Not THE GOVERNMENT.

You may have to play ball but you do not have to write the legislation for Congress and testify before Congress for an unfair tax advantage that screws the rest of us for your own benefit. My same response as post http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?418544-Amazon-com-shocking-hypocrisy&p=5083197&viewfull=1#post5083197 which you selectively ignored.

[Danan]

First of all, boycotting a business for whatever reason is obviously in line with libertarian ethics. You should always be allowed not to purchase from anyone for whatever reason - and to organize this effort. However, not all boycotting-efforts make a whole lot of sense from a libertarian point of view. Boycotting a business because they publically call for an end of the drug war would obviously be "unlibertarian" - even though you should be allowed to do that.

Now what about Amazon lobbying for unlibertarian laws? Of course boycott would be justified here. But does it make any sense? Will it actually effect anything, other than your own purse? If enough people are willing to boycott Amazon so that they would actually lose more money than they gain by lobbying - wouldn't these same people also be able to kick out politicians actually enacting the bad laws? If we can increase the costs of lobbying for the business high enough by the threat of boycott, why wouldn't we be able to increase the costs for politicians to enact unlibertarian laws so that it outweighs their benefits?

As green73 perfectly phrased it:

You have to play ball with leviathan or it will eat you.
Sadly in todays world if you don't lobby yourself, the government will ensure that they themselves or your competitors are going to bankrupt you eventually. The government is the underlying problem of this problem. But it simply can not be our solution for those kinds of problems to constantly damage ourselves by limitting our choices. If we start to boycott every business that does anything unlibertarian we're going to live like cavemen. I don't really favor that.

[qh4dotcom]

Looks like everyone who agrees with the hypocrites at Amazon disagrees with Ron Paul.

Amazon.com RPF supporters....is Ron Paul wrong?

http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-the-senate-have-passed-an-online-sales-tax/ron-paul-lets-call-this-what-it-isan-internet-tax-mandate




The underlying Act has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with enriching large companies and bloated state governments, while harming small businesses, taxpayers, and consumers.

The National Internet Tax Mandate, as Campaign for Liberty refers to the bill, would impose costly regulations on our nation's job creators at a time when the economy is still struggling and millions of Americans are out of work. Businesses would be forced to become tax collectors in compliance with thousands of tax jurisdictions, and any increased operational costs would be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices.

It is unfortunately no surprise that some of the nation's most powerful businesses are lobbying hard for this legislation. While these companies can afford to absorb the additional burden imposed by this bill, their smaller competitors cannot.

The Internet Tax Mandate also violates the original purpose of the Commerce Clause, which was to guarantee free trade among the states. Instead, the bill would allow states to levy taxes on goods crossing into their state, which is not what the Founding Fathers intended. Why should California be able to force a business in Texas to collect and pay California sales tax?

[angelatc]

Unfair taxes are cutting into their profit margins. They are leveling the playing field.


Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

The playing field levels itself with postage costs.

"Leveling the playing field." Frank, is your new job with Amazon?

[Danan]

Looks like everyone who agrees with the hypocrites at Amazon disagrees with Ron Paul.

Amazon.com RPF supporters....is Ron Paul wrong?

http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-the-senate-have-passed-an-online-sales-tax/ron-paul-lets-call-this-what-it-isan-internet-tax-mandate

Has Ron Paul ever blamed Amazon for that bill?

If asked what he thinks about Amazon for lobbying for that bill he would probably say that it's not about the actions of individual firms, but rather about government having the power to grant those special privileges which is the problem. It is a systemic problem.

The bill is terrible without a doubt. The question is who is to blame more: the government or Amazon?

Btw, I believe I was one of the first here to suggest boycotting Amazon for supporting this, but I'm not really sure how useful that would be exactly.

[angelatc]

Amazon "demanded", "forced" blah blah fucking blah. I guess you don't understand how lobbying works?


The gov't makes the laws. The US gov't is the greatest leviathan the word has ever known. Try being an enterprise that serves humanity on a mass scale in that fascist environment. You have to play ball with leviathan or it will eat you. But let's focus on the victim, the one who has actually contributed to society. Not THE GOVERNMENT.

I think we're all trying to stop the government from passing this law. But some of us are also suggesting that it might not be on our best interests to keep feeding the mouths that belong to the hands that are pushing the government to bite us, either.

Its the same as not arming the Syrian rebels, because they're aligned with Al Qaeda.

[angelatc]

Sadly in todays world if you don't lobby yourself, the government will ensure that they themselves or your competitors are going to bankrupt you eventually. The government is the underlying problem of this problem. But it simply can not be our solution for those kinds of problems to constantly damage ourselves by limitting our choices. If we start to boycott every business that does anything unlibertarian we're going to live like cavemen. I don't really favor that.

The liberals have us beat, then. Beliefs are nothing without money. As long as we give our enemies cash, they could give a crap about how we feel.

[kahless]

I think we're all trying to stop the government from passing this law. But some of us are also suggesting that it might not be on our best interests to keep feeding the mouths that belong to the hands that are pushing the government to bite us, either.

Its the same as not arming the Syrian rebels, because they're aligned with Al Qaeda.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.



But it simply can not be our solution for those kinds of problems to constantly damage ourselves by limitting our choices.

This legislation being pushed by Amazon and others is truly unprecedented. I really do not see how a small businesses will be able to compete since not only will you have to know the regulations and file in 9600 jurisdictions in which you sell to, you will also could be subject to dealing with fines and audits. It would not take too many of these fines or tax compliance fights to kill profit margins and put you out of business.




As green73 perfectly phrased it: "You have to play ball with leviathan or it will eat you. " Sadly in todays world if you don't lobby yourself, the government will ensure that they themselves or your competitors are going to bankrupt you eventually.


Amazon was/is in no danger of going bankrupt. There was no need for them to do this. They could have very well continued the fight against the internet tax instead of resorting to tactics that increases taxes and eliminate tax representation.

Like I said to Green73, you may have to play ball but you do not have to write the legislation for Congress and testify before Congress for an unfair tax advantage that screws the rest of us for your own benefit.



The government is the underlying problem of this problem.


This is true.

[Danan]

The liberals have us beat, then. Beliefs are nothing without money. As long as we give our enemies cash, they could give a crap about how we feel.

Well, what if almost everyone is an "enemy" to some extend? Are we supposed to just keep all our money for ourselves? Of course there are certain degrees of being in the enemy camp. So maybe boycotting Amazon for this is indeed appropriate. I'm just saying it's not so clear-cut in either direction, imho. In an ideal world with plenty of free market competition adhering sctrictly to libertarian principles I would say screw Amazon.

The reality is that probably the vast majority of all companies favor at least some existing unlibertarian laws. They might just not be as vocal or active about that, because there is no debate about removing those laws. But of course that might be enough to support them until they actually get active about it.

Again I'm not saying that boycotting Amazon is wrong or that it shouldn't be done. But it's important to realize that what they're doing is a symptom and not the cause of the disease. In some circumstances treating symptoms might be appropriate, but of course unless you get rid of the root of all evil the symptoms are just going to return again and again. So unless you believe it's a terminal disease anyways at this point, I'd like to focus more on the underlying cause.

[green73]

The liberals have us beat, then. Beliefs are nothing without money. As long as we give our enemies cash, they could give a crap about how we feel.

Democracy! Staism! It's sooo great!

[angelatc]

It was pretty insane in 1830 to think we'd ever get rid of slavery or have steel horses pulling the plows. What the fuck do you know about the future?

There were lots of people who thought it was possible to end slavery in 1830.

[kahless]

Democracy! Staism! It's sooo great!

Why do you debate against reigning government and their supporters in then? That is really the issue here, government passing more laws and a company lobbying for more laws to be passed to limit our freedoms.

[angelatc]

Well, what if almost everyone is an "enemy" to some extend? Are we supposed to just keep all our money for ourselves? Of course there are certain degrees of being in the enemy camp. So maybe boycotting Amazon for this is indeed appropriate. I'm just saying it's not so clear-cut in either direction, imho. In an ideal world with plenty of free market competition adhering sctrictly to libertarian principles I would say screw Amazon.

The reality is that probably the vast majority of all companies favor at least some existing unlibertarian laws. They might just not be as vocal or active about that, because there is no debate about removing those laws. But of course that might be enough to support them until they actually get active about it.

Again I'm not saying that boycotting Amazon is wrong or that it shouldn't be done. But it's important to realize that what they're doing is a symptom and not the cause of the disease. In some circumstances treating symptoms might be appropriate, but of course unless you get rid of the root of all evil the symptoms are just going to return again and again. So unless you believe it's a terminal disease anyways at this point, I'd like to focus more on the underlying cause.

Apathy is the disease. Liberals don't have it - they push and push and push until they get more. We don't have that much fight in us. This discussion is evidence of that. Nobody here owns a small business, so nobody here really cares. As long as they can get what they want, its all good.

That's the same attitude that allowed them to get us this far.

[kahless]

Apathy is the disease. Liberals don't have it - they push and push and push until they get more. We don't have that much fight in us. This discussion is evidence of that. Nobody here owns a small business, so nobody here really cares. As long as they can get what they want, its all good.

That's the same attitude that allowed them to get us this far.

I agree and wonder if there are some Amazon marketplace resellers here.

[Working Poor]

here let me do a little math

Fuck you + fuck you=fuck you2

[ReturnLiberty]

Article One, Section 9, Clause 5 No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

[green73]

There were lots of people who thought it was possible to end slavery in 1830.

Uh huh.

[green73]

Apathy is the disease. Liberals don't have it - they push and push and push until they get more. We don't have that much fight in us. This discussion is evidence of that. Nobody here owns a small business, so nobody here really cares. As long as they can get what they want, its all good.

That's the same attitude that allowed them to get us this far.

God are you full of shit. I own a business. I compete on-line. Amazon is is often my competitor. It doesn't jade me to the truth that fucking gov't is the problem!

[Natural Citizen]

fucking gov't is the problem!

Define government in the context of the discussion, please. Come on, green. Show us your wisdom. Careful now...:)

[green73]

Define government in the context of the discussion, please. Come on, green. Show us your wisdom.

Yes because it take loads of wisdom to answer that noob question.

[kahless]

God are you full of shit. I own a business. I compete on-line. Amazon is is often my competitor. It doesn't jade me to the truth that fucking gov't is the problem!

I hear Nancy Pelosi's district claims you are a greedy small business owner not paying your fair share. They want XYZ from you and if you don't pay within X amount of time, x% interest will be charge on top of $X penalty. You can fight it but it will mean opening your books for them. Meanwhile three more letters just arrived from various districts on the east coast.

When that happens you can thank Amazon for that. Amazon will even provide you a service to file in all these jurisdictions but that is not going to stop the tax compliance letters from coming in the mail. Amazon's fee for the service may also make your sale unprofitable.

[green73]

I hear Nancy Pelosi's district claims you are a greedy small business owner not paying your fair share. They want XYZ from you and if you don't pay within X amount of time, x% interest will be charge on top of $X penalty. You can fight it but it will mean opening your books for them. Meanwhile three more letters just arrived from various districts on the east coast.

When that happens you can thank Amazon for that. Amazon will even provide you a service to file in all these jurisdictions but that is not going to stop the tax compliance letters from coming in the mail. Amazon's fee for the service may also make your sale unprofitable.

I'll thank the gov't.

[Natural Citizen]

I'll thank the gov't.

Right, but who exactly would government be in the context of this discussion?