PDA

View Full Version : Wow, only 32% of Hispanics have a positive view capitalism




green73
06-17-2013, 04:02 AM
55 percent of Hispanics had a negative view of capitalism, the most of any groups surveyed in a 2011 by thePew Research Center, as did 47 percent of those of all races between the ages of 18-29.


http://lewrockwell.com/wenzel/12-28-11-2.png

http://lewrockwell.com/wenzel/wenzel225.html

Warlord
06-17-2013, 04:05 AM
Explains 1,000+ page immigration bill which does nothing to secure the border and ensures continuous amnesty and turning America into Mexico

green73
06-17-2013, 04:08 AM
Explains 1,000+ page immigration bill which does nothing to secure the border and ensures continuous amnesty and turning America into Mexico

Occupy Wall Street hates capitalism only slightly worse!

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 05:58 AM
And whenever the economic arguments for open immigration is made by libertarians, what's left out is the reality that all of these people will be voting for socialism once they're legalized.

Tod
06-17-2013, 06:08 AM
I'm not at all surprised, given the history of large US/multinational corporations running roughshod over latin american countries for their resources, to the benefit of the country's rulers and the corporations, with the everyday citizen getting little to no benefit. Exploitation, anyone?

http://www.pressenza.com/2013/04/latin-america-to-tackle-exploitation-by-multinational-companies/

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/04/chavez-gifts-ob/ (http://www.pressenza.com/2013/04/latin-america-to-tackle-exploitation-by-multinational-companies/)

CaptUSA
06-17-2013, 06:13 AM
Nobody even knows what capitalism is anymore. They see cronyism and call it capitalism. The cronyists were wise to hide their misdeeds under the mantle of the system that would destroy them. That way, whenever there is distaste for what they do, the derision is aimed at their enemy.

fisharmor
06-17-2013, 06:17 AM
I'm not at all surprised, given the history of large US/multinational corporations running roughshod over latin american countries for their resources, to the benefit of the country's rulers and the corporations, with the everyday citizen getting little to no benefit. Exploitation, anyone?

Exactly - I don't see any reference to how the survey defined capitalism, or whether it even bothered to define it and instead left the subject to his own definitions.
If there's one thing libertarians need to do it's to start owning this argument. We need to take every opportunity to tell everyone to take the corporatist/fascist red herring and shove it up their asses.

It takes about two minutes to explain to Hispanics what the libertarian position is and how it benefits them and everyone else. It only requires that a) you actually know what the libertarian position is, and b) you, you know, TRY.
I submit that it's a lot easier and more effective than handcuffing them.


And whenever the economic arguments for open immigration is made by libertarians, what's left out is the reality that all of these people will be voting for socialism once they're legalized.

Another red herring. Nobody here is saying that we need to turn them into voting citizens.
Take a basic logic course. Ending persecution does not equate to citizenship.

aGameOfThrones
06-17-2013, 07:16 AM
Look at the blacks and socialism.

otherone
06-17-2013, 07:24 AM
Whuuuuuuh?
Zuuuuuuhhh?
POOR people don't like CAPITALISM?
WEIRD.

thoughtomator
06-17-2013, 07:49 AM
Hispanic history of capitalism = getting repeatedly invaded in the service of some multinational conglomerate

whippoorwill
06-17-2013, 08:08 AM
My diff in Pos and Neg would blow these pollsters minds.

Cleaner44
06-17-2013, 08:23 AM
The trend I see is that younger people with little money are most likely to support socialism. There's the problem. How do we fix it?

brushfire
06-17-2013, 08:34 AM
The trend I see is that younger people with little money are most likely to support socialism. There's the problem. How do we fix it?

I'd have to imagine its a perception of helplessness. Where, unless you're a "player", you're not going to be a "slave". What really boggles my mind is how these people can say that government is needed to impose regulation and oversight on the evil elite, but acknowledge that this so called government is controlled by the evil elite.

Contumacious
06-17-2013, 08:41 AM
[/CENTER]

http://lewrockwell.com/wenzel/wenzel225.html

The capitalism they were objecting to is the present American fascistic welfare/warfare state - not Ayn Rand's unknown ideal .

.

NIU Students for Liberty
06-17-2013, 10:18 AM
Hispanic history of capitalism = getting repeatedly invaded in the service of some multinational conglomerate

Not only that but also being handed the bottom of the barrel jobs while barred from receiving white collar management positions that were reserved for the European/American immigrants.

Sola_Fide
06-17-2013, 10:22 AM
You can thank Roman Catholicism for that.

green73
06-17-2013, 10:28 AM
//

supermario21
06-17-2013, 10:37 AM
You can thank Roman Catholicism for that.

Specifically the Jesuits if you ask me...let's let people with no knowledge of the economy have a platform to pontificate about the economy...I say this as a weekly churchgoing Catholic. I do not care for the new Pope and his espoused views on economics, blaming "unfettered capitalism" for the world's problems. We haven't had real capitalism since pre-1865.

Sola_Fide
06-17-2013, 10:52 AM
Specifically the Jesuits if you ask me...let's let people with no knowledge of the economy have a platform to pontificate about the economy...I say this as a weekly churchgoing Catholic. I do not care for the new Pope and his espoused views on economics, blaming "unfettered capitalism" for the world's problems. We haven't had real capitalism since pre-1865.

How Roman Catholic collectivism shaped America:

Conservatism: An Autopsy
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=115

BAllen
06-17-2013, 11:05 AM
I've wondered about that, myself. The Catholic Church has been in Mexico since before this country was even founded. If church is so wonderful, why hasn't their lot improved? Why are they wanting to come to the U.S.? If churches were doing any good in third world countries, those people would not want to come to European countries, would they?

supermario21
06-17-2013, 11:27 AM
I've wondered about that, myself. The Catholic Church has been in Mexico since before this country was even founded. If church is so wonderful, why hasn't their lot improved? Why are they wanting to come to the U.S.? If churches were doing any good in third world countries, those people would not want to come to European countries, would they?

It seems as if the church does the best in the third world, or at least regions which are not fully developed. Much of the chatter about the pope selection was that it would either be an African or a South/Latin American. The church is dying in Europe, for example. Ironically, the church leaders espouse socialist views on economics and it is those regimes which are helping to kill off the church. Of course, state fascism was not any better, but the church has made its bed with socialism, and can die right along with it (the leadership that is). I don't think you can smear Catholics with a broad brush, however. In America, I'd argue that the Catholic demographics line up with race, white Catholics overwhelmingly Republican and Hispanic Catholics overwhelmingly Democrat. Evangelical Hispanic churches are also booming, and I'd suspect that many Republican-leaning Hispanics join those churches, skewing the "Catholic" numbers even more.

My final thoughts: I think the church has made the mistake of abandoning the emphasis of "voluntary" charity. Being a good Catholic is being charitable in the individual sense, not being forced to "redistribute wealth" by the government. The church has taken the easy way out and endorsed forced redistribution rather than voluntary charity which has been a component of Catholicism.

Sola_Fide
06-17-2013, 11:35 AM
It seems as if the church does the best in the third world, or at least regions which are not fully developed. Much of the chatter about the pope selection was that it would either be an African or a South/Latin American. The church is dying in Europe, for example. Ironically, the church leaders espouse socialist views on economics and it is those regimes which are helping to kill off the church. Of course, state fascism was not any better, but the church has made its bed with socialism, and can die right along with it (the leadership that is). I don't think you can smear Catholics with a broad brush, however. In America, I'd argue that the Catholic demographics line up with race, white Catholics overwhelmingly Republican and Hispanic Catholics overwhelmingly Democrat. Evangelical Hispanic churches are also booming, and I'd suspect that many Republican-leaning Hispanics join those churches, skewing the "Catholic" numbers even more.

My final thoughts: I think the church has made the mistake of abandoning the emphasis of "voluntary" charity. Being a good Catholic is being charitable in the individual sense, not being forced to "redistribute wealth" by the government. The church has taken the easy way out and endorsed forced redistribution rather than voluntary charity which has been a component of Catholicism.


The Roman Catholic Socialist Agenda
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=288

supermario21
06-17-2013, 12:02 PM
The Roman Catholic Socialist Agenda
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=288

Great stuff again, Sola. I've already maxed out my rep to you lol.

LibertyEagle
06-17-2013, 12:10 PM
And whenever the economic arguments for open immigration is made by libertarians, what's left out is the reality that all of these people will be voting for socialism once they're legalized.

Very true.

ronpaulfollower999
06-17-2013, 12:12 PM
I'm sure the positives are higher for Cubans....at least that has been my experience.

Antischism
06-17-2013, 12:22 PM
The question might as well have been "views on cronyism/corporatism" because that's the cancer that has overtaken this country and has been destroying smaller nations economically. Given corporatism and socialism, yeah, poor people are going to want to side with socialism. How is that any surprise? The rich thriving in a corporatist society view it positively? You don't say!

People don't know the difference between capitalism and cronyism/corporatism, so it all falls under capitalism. I would absolutely despise it too if I didn't know the difference. Very misleading poll.

fisharmor
06-17-2013, 12:28 PM
Very true.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/redherring.gif

FrankRep
06-17-2013, 12:52 PM
You can thank Roman Catholicism for that.

Tom Woods is a Roman Catholic.

heavenlyboy34
06-17-2013, 12:58 PM
You can thank Roman Catholicism for that.
Catholicism isn't inherently anti-capitalist (laissez-faire, that is). WRT encouraging the illegal aliens' socialism, Protestants, atheists, and others do it too. They're just more interested in cheap labor.

heavenlyboy34
06-17-2013, 12:59 PM
The question might as well have been "views on cronyism/corporatism" because that's the cancer that has overtaken this country and has been destroying smaller nations economically. Given corporatism and socialism, yeah, poor people are going to want to side with socialism. How is that any surprise? The rich thriving in a corporatist society view it positively? You don't say!

People don't know the difference between capitalism and cronyism/corporatism, so it all falls under capitalism. I would absolutely despise it too if I didn't know the difference. Very misleading poll.
This^^

Contumacious
06-17-2013, 01:00 PM
The capitalism they were objecting to is the present American fascistic welfare/warfare state - not Ayn Rand's unknown ideal .

.

:rolleyes:

heavenlyboy34
06-17-2013, 01:02 PM
Tom Woods is a Roman Catholic.
As is Lew Rockwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Rockwell) and Jeffrey Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Tucker). The anti-Catholic hate I see around here sometimes is just disgraceful. :p

green73
06-17-2013, 01:17 PM
As is Lew Rockwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Rockwell) and Jeffrey Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Tucker). The anti-Catholic hate I see around here sometimes is just disgraceful. :p

As is one Eduardo Jebediah Sanderson, the greatest paleocon the world has ever known.

Sola_Fide
06-17-2013, 01:33 PM
Catholicism isn't inherently anti-capitalist (laissez-faire, that is). .

Yes it is. The two articles I posted in this thread show that it is. As for Rockwell and Woods being anti-collectivist, they do so contrary to the principles of Rome. Some people inexplicably remain Roman Catholics even when their philosophy contradicts their theology. If you will remember, it was Lord Acton (a life long Catholic) who said protesting Roman Catholic church-state tyranny "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. " Acton was a Roman Catholic protesting the tyranny of Rome.

FrankRep
06-17-2013, 01:38 PM
Yes it is. The two articles I posted in this thread show that it is. As for Rockwell and Woods being anti-collectivist, they do so contrary to the principles of Rome. Some people inexplicably remain Roman Catholics even when their philosophy contradicts their theology. If you will remember, it was Lord Acton (a life long Catholic) who said protesting Roman Catholic church-state tyranny "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. " Acton was a Roman Catholic protesting the tyranny of Rome.

You should read these Tom Woods' books:

The Church and the Market

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

green73
06-17-2013, 01:42 PM
Yes it is. The two articles I posted in this thread show that it is. As for Rockwell and Woods being anti-collectivist, they do so contrary to the principles of Rome. Some people inexplicably remain Roman Catholics even when their philosophy contradicts their theology. If you will remember, it was Lord Acton (a life long Catholic) who said protesting Roman Catholic church-state tyranny "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. " Acton was a Roman Catholic protesting the tyranny of Rome.

https://www.google.com/search?client=fs&q=capitalism+catholicism+site%3Alewrockwell.com

Ender
06-17-2013, 02:16 PM
As is Lew Rockwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Rockwell) and Jeffrey Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Tucker). The anti-Catholic hate I see around here sometimes is just disgraceful. :p

Actually, I think all the hate I've seen on the board lately is disgraceful. And we are supposed to believe a Pew poll?

Even if it is true, as many have already pointed out, no one knows what real capitalism is anymore. We are back to the days of mercantilism, which set off the Revolutionary War. Also, as previously stated, the Latin American countries have been overtaken by US Corporate interests and robbed of their wealth.

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, John Perkins

As for those silly Hispanics wanting to come to a "European" country- I got news: America is not a European country; it was conquered by Europeans and many of those illegal immigrants' ancestors were here first. And, from what I have heard from friends in Mexico, in today's world, the Mexicans are actually freer than Americans.

ReasonableThinker
06-17-2013, 03:32 PM
As for those silly Hispanics wanting to come to a "European" country- I got news: America is not a European country; it was conquered by Europeans and many of those illegal immigrants' ancestors were here first. And, from what I have heard from friends in Mexico, in today's world, the Mexicans are actually freer than Americans.

Myth. The Hispanics descend south from the border and have no ancestral connections to the land now known as the United States. If you can show me an "America" prior to European conquest, I would like to see it. Because I've never heard of such a thing, America is a European & Western idea. The term "native american" was first meant to describe Anglo-Protestants.

ReasonableThinker
06-17-2013, 03:36 PM
I've wondered about that, myself. The Catholic Church has been in Mexico since before this country was even founded. If church is so wonderful, why hasn't their lot improved? Why are they wanting to come to the U.S.? If churches were doing any good in third world countries, those people would not want to come to European countries, would they?

Well, Mexico is certainly in a better state than it was prior to conquest. It's certainly not inhabited by random semi-nomadic tribes and its economic power is increasingly growing. Problem is that higher intelligence equates to higher income and wealth. Mexico will probably always end up being a nation with an extremely rich upper class and dumbed down impoverished lower class.

Matt Collins
06-17-2013, 03:37 PM
I wouldnt trust anything Robert Wenzel puts out.

ReasonableThinker
06-17-2013, 03:41 PM
Capitalism has been a miserable failure in the long-term. Even if you people were able to achieve your utopian Ayn Rand society, it would only take a few generations for that nation to devolve back into some pseudo-socialistic nation like the one we have now. Statists infiltrate the State, the people embrace the disease hyper-individualism, and liberalism becomes the dominant ideology. I would much prefer a Collectivist right-wing society, that was some socialistic principles, like Franco's Spain or Mussolini's Italy to the sick society that we have today.

green73
06-17-2013, 03:43 PM
^^^ Warlord, this is the type of person I wasn't referring to earier. Nobody here gives a shit about ignorant tripe like this. It is good for laughs though!

Sola_Fide
06-17-2013, 04:02 PM
You should read these Tom Woods' books:

The Church and the Market

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

I havent read those books but I highly doubt they get into the deep theological concepts that are at issue here.

Sola_Fide
06-17-2013, 04:06 PM
Capitalism has been a miserable failure in the long-term. Even if you people were able to achieve your utopian Ayn Rand society, it would only take a few generations for that nation to devolve back into some pseudo-socialistic nation like the one we have now. Statists infiltrate the State, the people embrace the disease hyper-individualism, and liberalism becomes the dominant ideology. I would much prefer a Collectivist right-wing society, that was some socialistic principles, like Franco's Spain or Mussolini's Italy to the sick society that we have today.

What we have today IS a collectivist right wing corporatist system.

supermario21
06-17-2013, 04:09 PM
This isn't about Tom Woods, or Lew Rockwell, or any libertarian or conservative Catholics like myself. It's that the hierarchy of the church has been decidedly left-wing in terms of economics the past 40-50 years, or at least since the New Deal if not longer.

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 04:10 PM
If you guys think that all these Mexican immigrants are going to become free market supporting libertarians once they're legalized just because their current vision of capitalism may not be entirely accurate I think you're going to be sadly disappointed.

Ender
06-17-2013, 04:13 PM
Myth. The Hispanics descend south from the border and have no ancestral connections to the land now known as the United States. If you can show me an "America" prior to European conquest, I would like to see it. Because I've never heard of such a thing, America is a European & Western idea. The term "native american" was first meant to describe Anglo-Protestants.

The "Hispanics" as you know them are a mixture of Indian and European. The American Indians were highly populated throughout North America until the plague, brought by Europeans, killed many of them.

Some of the cultures were incredible educated and intelligent.

http://world-pyramids.com/en/world-pyramids/northern-america/monk-mound,-great-pyramid-of-the-usa.html

The Constitution of the united States is based on the Cherokee Nation.


At least 300 years prior to the passage of the United States Constitution, North American democracy began with the Iroquois Confederacy's Law of the Great Peace. The Cherokee belong to the Iroquois language family of eastern North America.

The representative democracy of the Iroquois was extensively studied and praised by Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, who proposed it as the basis for the United States Constitution. In a backhanded compliment at the Albany Congress in 1754, Franklin said he found it hard to believe that the 13 colonies could not agree to a political union when "Six Nations of ignorant savages" had formed one.

The Cherokee Nation Constitution establishes a blueprint for our tribal government and allows us to construct a set of laws to effectively govern the second largest Indian tribe in the United States.

http://www.cherokee.org/OurGovernment/Commissions/ConstitutionConvention.aspx



Your version of America might be where the borders now exist but that was not the America that the first Europeans came to. In fact it was Brazil that was first called "America".

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 04:14 PM
I wouldnt trust anything Robert Wenzel puts out.

Dude all you had to do was click a few links to see that this is from Pew Research: http://www.people-press.org/2011/12/28/little-change-in-publics-response-to-capitalism-socialism/12-28-11-2/ Wenzel just linked to it.

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 04:17 PM
Okay guys we're getting into side issues here. This is the main question: why is legalizing all of these capitalism hating immigrants who will vote against us in elections a good strategy for the libertarian movement? Do you actually think that all that's needed is for wise libertarians to explain to them why free markets are a good thing in order for them to change, and that they're all going to be supporting people like Rand Paul in the coming elections or even support anarcho-capitalism? That their inherent bias against capitalism will be that easy to overcome?

green73
06-17-2013, 04:20 PM
This isn't about Tom Woods, or Lew Rockwell, or any libertarian or conservative Catholics like myself. It's that the hierarchy of the church has been decidedly left-wing in terms of economics the past 40-50 years, or at least since the New Deal if not longer.

The oligarchs have long ago snared all the power centrers.

nobody's_hero
06-17-2013, 04:26 PM
Okay guys we're getting into side issues here. This is the main question: why is legalizing all of these capitalism hating immigrants who will vote against us in elections a good strategy for the libertarian movement? Do you actually think that all that's needed is for wise libertarians to explain to them why free markets are a good thing in order for them to change, and that they're all going to be supporting people like Rand Paul in the coming elections or even support anarcho-capitalism? That their inherent bias against capitalism will be that easy to overcome?

http://www.cinemagraphcollection.com/cinemagraphs/tumblr_lasmpzzeeO1qe0eclo1_r2_500.gif

muh_roads
06-17-2013, 04:55 PM
18-29 yr olds.

Not surprised. The anchor babies have grown up and have been saturated with liberalism on TV for the past two decades. Now all they want are government health care jobs thanks to the affirmative action it makes whitey complaints seem like we're overreacting because they never have to worry about working for something except for those tech school degrees they advertise on late night TV.

MelissaWV
06-17-2013, 05:09 PM
I could explain further, but the same people wear me out over and over. I'll just say Hispanic =/= Mexican. Seriously. It doesn't even mean the person's some kind of immigrant, legal or otherwise.

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 05:19 PM
Mexicans are the ones who hate capitalism the most. And they're the majority of immigrants so that's who we're talking about.

supermario21
06-17-2013, 05:32 PM
I don't think Mexicans will ever support capitalism. Even open-borders, pro-drug legalization Gary Johnson only got 33% of the Hispanic vote in his 1998 reelection campaign in New Mexico. He won because he won 67% of the white vote! I think Republicans will always be between 28-40% of the Hispanic vote no matter who the candidate is. It's big government.

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/1998/states/NM/G/exit.poll.html

BAllen
06-17-2013, 05:37 PM
It may be that Hispanics and Blacks prefer to be dependent on government. THAT, is the crux of the problem. We have a divide in this country. Those that want a free market with the opportunity to have much more. And those who want a mediocre existence. Problem is that socialism doesn't allow for that. They demand that EVERYONE pay into their system, and abide by their regulations.

MelissaWV
06-17-2013, 05:56 PM
Mexicans are the ones who hate capitalism the most. And they're the majority of immigrants so that's who we're talking about.

Then start a poll that actually says "Mexicans" and polls them.

The poll doesn't split people up as immigrants, so really, you started out with the category "Hispanic," jumped to "Mexican," then expanded that to "immigrants of which Mexicans are the majority."

Good job, thread.

green73
06-17-2013, 06:49 PM
I could explain further, but the same people wear me out over and over. I'll just say Hispanic =/= Mexican. Seriously. It doesn't even mean the person's some kind of immigrant, legal or otherwise.

Thank you.

Carson
06-17-2013, 07:04 PM
Someday maybe we'll get a chance to show them some. You know the real stuff. Like we had several decades ago.

Surprises me anyone is buying any form of capitalism now with all of the stealth back-door socialism sucking the life out of the capital, capitalism requires to operate.

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 08:02 PM
Then start a poll that actually says "Mexicans" and polls them.

The poll doesn't split people up as immigrants, so really, you started out with the category "Hispanic," jumped to "Mexican," then expanded that to "immigrants of which Mexicans are the majority."

Good job, thread.

If anything lumping the other Hispanic immigrants in with Mexican immigrants makes the immigrants from other Latin countries look more socialist by association.

http://edschultzmsnbc.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/just-another-racist-mexican-may-day-socialist-communist-party-hate-the-capitalist-american-whitie-rally-america-sure-is-going-down-the-crapper-thank-you-mexico/


Someday maybe we'll get a chance to show them some. You know the real stuff. Like we had several decades ago.

Surprises me anyone is buying any form of capitalism now with all of the stealth back-door socialism sucking the life out of the capital, capitalism in requires to operate.

Yes, and we will have more corruption and socialism as a result of these millions of people being legalized and voting, not less.

muh_roads
06-17-2013, 08:09 PM
I could explain further, but the same people wear me out over and over. I'll just say Hispanic =/= Mexican. Seriously. It doesn't even mean the person's some kind of immigrant, legal or otherwise.

The majority are from Mexico. I don't need to prove it. We touch the fucking border from east to west.

Concerning yourself with the distinction misses the point. The point is, minorities love liberalism. I blame affirmative action.

MrTudo
06-17-2013, 08:11 PM
No Asians in this?

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 08:17 PM
I don't think Mexicans will ever support capitalism. Even open-borders, pro-drug legalization Gary Johnson only got 33% of the Hispanic vote in his 1998 reelection campaign in New Mexico. He won because he won 67% of the white vote! I think Republicans will always be between 28-40% of the Hispanic vote no matter who the candidate is. It's big government.

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/1998/states/NM/G/exit.poll.html

Thus support of pro-amnesty policies is literally self-annihilation for opponents of big government. Further evidence: Pro-Immigration Congressional Republicans Do Not Perform Better Among Latino Voters (http://cis.org/pro-immigration-congressional-republicans-do-not-perform-better-among-latino-voters)

NIU Students for Liberty
06-17-2013, 08:32 PM
Thus support of pro-amnesty policies is literally self-annihilation for opponents of big government. Further evidence: Pro-Immigration Congressional Republicans Do Not Perform Better Among Latino Voters (http://cis.org/pro-immigration-congressional-republicans-do-not-perform-better-among-latino-voters)

Because white American voters are already doing a bang up job when it comes to supporting "limited government". Stop contradicting yourself (you claim to oppose "big government") by not telling me who I can and cannot have on my property.

BAllen
06-17-2013, 09:18 PM
Aren't we making more progress with liberty candidates at the local level?
If so, would it not make sense to eliminate the taxes and regulations on businesses? I haven't heard of that being done. If I were trying to sell the liberty message, and I were talking with the unemployed community, here's what I'd do:

You have a truck, and a mower. You have a lawn care business.
You have a washer and dryer, you have a laundry business.
You have a cell phone and a car, you have a taxi service.

Aren't you tired of working swing shifts for employers at some warehouse or retail? Wouldn't you like to work your own hours with your own business?

This is possible with deregulation at the local level.

MelissaWV
06-17-2013, 09:34 PM
The majority are from Mexico. I don't need to prove it. We touch the fucking border from east to west.

Concerning yourself with the distinction misses the point. The point is, minorities love liberalism. I blame affirmative action.

This is why I believe the majority of whites surveyed are Canadian.


A record 33.7 million Hispanics of Mexican origin resided in the United States in 2012, according to an analysis of Census Bureau data by Pew Research Center. This estimate includes 11.4 million immigrants born in Mexico and 22.3 million born in the U.S. who self-identified as Hispanics of Mexican origin.

So by "majority" you mean... 11.4/33.7 = 0.338 ... and since that entire 33.7 was 64%, it appears that actually a little under 22% that are "from Mexico." That's a strange majority.

I blame public schools :D

Carson
06-17-2013, 09:39 PM
Actually I thought the, "TEA Party movement" / "Occupy Wall Street" figures were the most interesting.


That and that the brainwashing on the young people SEEMS to be working...for the moment. That sort of thing can backlash hard.


There does seem to be some pretty squirrely looking columns and definitions scrambled in there if you poke at it.

HigherVision
06-17-2013, 10:41 PM
Because white American voters are already doing a bang up job when it comes to supporting "limited government". Stop contradicting yourself (you claim to oppose "big government") by not telling me who I can and cannot have on my property.

What property? Don't you know that private property and capitalism are white racist institutions? Your Chicano comrades will be doing away with that more and more as they're legalized and registered to vote.

muh_roads
06-17-2013, 10:51 PM
This is why I believe the majority of whites surveyed are Canadian.

So by "majority" you mean... 11.4/33.7 = 0.338 ... and since that entire 33.7 was 64%, it appears that actually a little under 22% that are "from Mexico." That's a strange majority.

I blame public schools :D

I blame your inability to remember I said "ANCHOR BABIES". By majority I mean the ones born here in the US shouldn't be considered legal if the illegal orifice they were shit out of was from Mexico.

Handsome Mexican
06-17-2013, 11:28 PM
Explains 1,000+ page immigration bill which does nothing to secure the border and ensures continuous amnesty and turning America into Mexico

What do you have against Mexico?

Antischism
06-17-2013, 11:48 PM
What property? Don't you know that private property and capitalism are white racist institutions? Your Chicano comrades will be doing away with that more and more as they're legalized and registered to vote.

Just like the white Europeans who slaughtered/diseased the natives and stole their land after invading it, eh?

Maybe if the U.S. were to just slaughter all Mexicans and steal the rest of that land too, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem, right?

It just always brings to light for me how ridiculous the illegal immigration debate sounds.

oyarde
06-18-2013, 12:20 AM
The "Hispanics" as you know them are a mixture of Indian and European. The American Indians were highly populated throughout North America until the plague, brought by Europeans, killed many of them.

Some of the cultures were incredible educated and intelligent.

http://world-pyramids.com/en/world-pyramids/northern-america/monk-mound,-great-pyramid-of-the-usa.html

The Constitution of the united States is based on the Cherokee Nation.



Your version of America might be where the borders now exist but that was not the America that the first Europeans came to. In fact it was Brazil that was first called "America".

While many tribes share the Iroquois language root , the tribes of the League were, originally ( 1575), Oneida , Onondago,Mohawk,Cayuga and Seneca , later (1722) , the Tuscarora.

oyarde
06-18-2013, 12:29 AM
Just like the white Europeans who slaughtered/diseased the natives and stole their land after invading it, eh?

Maybe if the U.S. were to just slaughter all Mexicans and steal the rest of that land too, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem, right?

It just always brings to light for me how ridiculous the illegal immigration debate sounds.

Probably should have just annexed it all into the US in about Nov of 1847 once we had invaded and held it all.That Guatemalan border would have been easy to close :)

HigherVision
06-18-2013, 03:51 AM
Just like the white Europeans who slaughtered/diseased the natives and stole their land after invading it, eh?

Maybe if the U.S. were to just slaughter all Mexicans and steal the rest of that land too, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem, right?

It just always brings to light for me how ridiculous the illegal immigration debate sounds.

My family wasn't even here until the next century so I feel no guilt over said slaughter. All I know is I'm here and I don't want to live under totalitarian socialism. I'd be all for immigration if the immigrants were for liberty. That's the only part I care about, that they'll be voting for socialism as well as using disproportionately large amounts of government services paid for with taxes and debt that hurts the economy. I don't particularly care about the 'they broke the law' part. Philosophically I don't even think nation states are legitimate but this is the world we live in. If there was some large pool of dissident libertarian foreigners wanting to immigrate here I'd be for them pouring in by the millions, legally or illegally.

specsaregood
06-18-2013, 04:31 AM
Look at the blacks and socialism.

I looked at blacks and capitalism. Rand said if he can get 20% of the black vote it puts all the states back into play for the GOP. That's exactly half of those that have a positive view of capitalism. That seems doable.

cindy25
06-18-2013, 05:13 AM
Hispanics should not be viewed as a group, as Cuban-Americans would be far different from Puerto Ricans or Mexicans

cindy25
06-18-2013, 05:18 AM
I looked at blacks and capitalism. Rand said if he can get 20% of the black vote it puts all the states back into play for the GOP. That's exactly half of those that have a positive view of capitalism. That seems doable.

the only way Rand will get 20% of the black vote is if he picks a black VP, and the Dems have an all white ticket.

Tim Scott is the only possibility, and I don't know enough about him to form a reasonable opinion

kcchiefs6465
06-18-2013, 05:43 AM
The trend I see is that younger people with little money are most likely to support socialism. There's the problem. How do we fix it?
I see trends set forth by the older generations, the spending and burden being put on my shoulders. See how that works?

I see the argument of incrementalism but to be honest I was born unto this system.

What do you expect me to do? I've got precedents set that are three-five times as old as I. I've got reefer madness propaganda and interventionist fools around me. My generation is no better, but trying to take the high road on when exactly this tanker started heading towards the iceberg is ridiculous.

Especially to attempt blame it on those whose dollars are shit paper, jobs aren't there, and police state leviathan quelling any dissent.

An argument that annoys me.

fisharmor
06-18-2013, 05:57 AM
Just like the white Europeans who slaughtered/diseased the natives and stole their land after invading it, eh?

Maybe if the U.S. were to just slaughter all Mexicans and steal the rest of that land too, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem, right?

It just always brings to light for me how ridiculous the illegal immigration debate sounds.

Seriously, I want to know why the deportation crowd even wants to bother.
Just off 'em. Round up everyone who can't produce the right paperwork, make them dig a giant hole, and bury them in it.
Don't even waste the bullets.
Problem solved. I mean, they aren't US citizens, so everyone knows they don't have rights. Because rights come from the US government. :rolleyes:


Probably should have just annexed it all into the US in about Nov of 1847 once we had invaded and held it all.That Guatemalan border would have been easy to close :)

Yeah, the trouble is in other places of the world, people actually remember events that matter. They aren't given caricatures of historical events meant to cement state-worship (like "We fought the civil war to end slavery"). They have a cultural memory of what happened. Sort of like how schoolchildren in the middle east know what the crusades were, why they were fought, and who the major players were... sort of like how Mexicans likely know that the Mexican-American war was fought so that America could build an empire capable of competing with Europe.

I have a feeling a lot of them know that the reason why we've been fucking with them ad nauseum for the last 200 years (do you guys know where the term 'Banana Republic' comes from?) is to protect our corporatist interests. THAT IS WHERE THEY GET THEIR NEGATIVE VIEW OF CAPITALISM.
Joking around about how "we should have finished the job" isn't likely to bring them around.

Telling them "Yeah, I don't agree with that at all, but what I do agree with is the fact that you came here for a better life and to try to find honest work, and get paid for it, and I want to remove barriers to you getting that work - in fact I want to remove all barriers to getting work. And I fully realize that you don't care whether you are able to vote, and that you just want to stay close to your family, and I support your right to fly back home once in a while to visit your parents and not worry about being able to get back in afterward" - this works a lot better, and I know this because I've done it.

It truly is amazing what you can achieve by talking to people, as opposed to choosing not to associate with them and threatening to send them 3000 miles away and not allow them to see their brothers and sisters and parents and children ever again.

nobody's_hero
06-18-2013, 07:22 AM
Because white American voters are already doing a bang up job when it comes to supporting "limited government". Stop contradicting yourself (you claim to oppose "big government") by not telling me who I can and cannot have on my property.

I see this come up in arguments a lot and I'm just curious to know how many illegal immigrants you want to host on your property. I mean, sure it's none of my business, but, were you planning to invite a few thousand over and it's just that gov't regs prevent you from doing so? Because, if we're going to talk about property rights, then I'll fully stand by your right to have all the illegal immigrants sent to your house, but somehow, just somehow I think that you would be opposed to that.

I'd be more upset, from a property rights standpoint, that the tax on my property goes to fund something like this:

http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/06/20-year-illegal-immigrant-welfare-mama-tries-to-recruit-more-welfare-mamas/

And there's this:


What property? Don't you know that private property and capitalism are white racist institutions? Your Chicano comrades will be doing away with that more and more as they're legalized and registered to vote.

nobody's_hero
06-18-2013, 07:44 AM
Just like the white Europeans who slaughtered/diseased the natives and stole their land after invading it, eh?

Maybe if the U.S. were to just slaughter all Mexicans and steal the rest of that land too, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem, right?

It just always brings to light for me how ridiculous the illegal immigration debate sounds.

Well, maybe it isn't that ridiculous. I love it when the native American example comes up in debate.

The native Americans surely would have fared better had they banded together and slaughtered the Europeans on the beaches of Virginia. But you know, the tribes were all very divided, communication was poor, and some felt that they might benefit from a relationship with the outsiders. Some had no problems with Europeans on their property (well, they had no concept of property, let's say they had no problem with Europeans living among them). The native Americans invited (or neglected) innumerable waves of newcomers to the shores. And, hell, why not? It was their right to do so. ;)

But the newcomers thought the Native American society to be backwards and archaic.

At first, the native Americans outnumbered the newcomers, and it really did not matter how backwards the whites thought the tribes were. But over time, through disease, war, and relocations, the natives lost their culture and their lands to the hordes. The white man brought along with them the concept of government where promises and treaties were made and broken and there was no appeal process for the natives. The new minority found themselves at the wrong end of a gun, many times.

Today some remnants of the native American society still survive in sparsely established reservations. Artifacts of their way-of-life can be found in museums.

/metaphor

I wonder if that is what will become of the already-losing capitalists.

All I ask is that if I'm gonna be relocated to a reservation please put me in the same tribe as Anti-Federalist.

AuH20
06-18-2013, 08:27 AM
What do you have against Mexico?

The narco-criminal state with an ultra rich plutocratic layer and the remaining poor. Other than that it's great. At least the U.S. has three classes but we'll be Mexico very soon.

pcosmar
06-18-2013, 09:03 AM
Very true.

As opposed to born and raised Americans that have been voting for Socialism for 100 years.

The worst part of the poll is that capitalism is neither defined nor understood.
The are likely opposed to Corporatism,, which is all they have ever seen..

If they want to be paid for work they ARE capitalists.

pcosmar
06-18-2013, 09:18 AM
This is Capitalism.
http://www.electricblue.net/Deadspace/ShakedownSt2.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cajunzydeco/saulieu.2002.album/photos/flea.market2.jpg

http://www.clintonrec.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/yard-sale.jpg

This is NOT.

http://wodumedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Police-officers-stand-guard-as-employees-look-out-from-inside-at-marching-Occupy-Wall-Street-protesters-near-the-JP-Morgan-Chase-corporate-headquarters-on-Park-Avenue-in-New-York-on-Friday-October-28-2011.-Nearly-400-Occupy-Wal-960x622.jpg

NIU Students for Liberty
06-18-2013, 09:32 AM
What property? Don't you know that private property and capitalism are white racist institutions? Your Chicano comrades will be doing away with that more and more as they're legalized and registered to vote.

Who said anything about voting?

fisharmor
06-18-2013, 09:37 AM
This is Capitalism.
http://www.electricblue.net/Deadspace/ShakedownSt2.jpg

There's a vacant convenience store on a fairly busy road in town, where some people have taken to bringing in one of those wheeled smokers every weekend.
They fire that thing up and barbecue all day. I assume they're selling it.
You can see the smoke from blocks away. It smells great driving past it.
I think it's the greatest thing going on in town.

I just commented to the wife on Sunday that its days are numbered.

BAllen
06-18-2013, 09:41 AM
There's a vacant convenience store on a fairly busy road in town, where some people have taken to bringing in one of those wheeled smokers every weekend.
They fire that thing up and barbecue all day. I assume they're selling it.
You can see the smoke from blocks away. It smells great driving past it.
I think it's the greatest thing going on in town.

I just commented to the wife on Sunday that its days are numbered.

Don't be surprised if the muslims complain of the pork smell, and work to have it banned.

NIU Students for Liberty
06-18-2013, 09:42 AM
I see this come up in arguments a lot and I'm just curious to know how many illegal immigrants you want to host on your property. I mean, sure it's none of my business, but, were you planning to invite a few thousand over and it's just that gov't regs prevent you from doing so? Because, if we're going to talk about property rights, then I'll fully stand by your right to have all the illegal immigrants sent to your house, but somehow, just somehow I think that you would be opposed to that.

I'd be more upset, from a property rights standpoint, that the tax on my property goes to fund something like this:

http://lonelyconservative.com/2013/06/20-year-illegal-immigrant-welfare-mama-tries-to-recruit-more-welfare-mamas/

And there's this:

I was referring not only to my home but place of business as well. If I own a business, I should be allowed to hire and pay wages as I see fit (at least what the free market dictates). You or the government do not have the right to interfere.

And in regards to the taxation argument, who from the open borders/amnesty crowd said anything about supporting funding immigrants through tax dollars? I'm sure you're aware of this by now but it isn't "illegal" immigration that has stolen the majority of your money and spent it on welfare and social security. As I said in a previous post, existing American citizens have supported the welfare/warfare state for over a century now but yet I don't hear anyone voicing support to deport them or remove their citizenship.

Fight the system, not the people that should be educated.

AuH20
06-18-2013, 09:47 AM
I was referring not only to my home but place of business as well. If I own a business, I should be allowed to hire and pay wages as I see fit (at least what the free market dictates). You or the government do not have the right to interfere.

And in regards to the taxation argument, who from the open borders/amnesty crowd said anything about supporting funding immigrants through tax dollars? I'm sure you're aware of this by now but it isn't "illegal" immigration that has stolen the majority of your money and spent it on welfare and social security. As I said in a previous post, existing American citizens have supported the welfare/warfare state for over a century now but yet I don't hear anyone voicing support to deport them or remove their citizenship.

Fight the system, not the people that should be educated.

Adding foreign dependents to the growing list of domestic, nativeborn dependents isn't a viable solution. It's hard enough convincing the native-born Boobus that these policies aren't in their best interests, nevermind those with a cultural and lingual disconnect.

BAllen
06-18-2013, 10:10 AM
I was referring not only to my home but place of business as well. If I own a business, I should be allowed to hire and pay wages as I see fit (at least what the free market dictates). You or the government do not have the right to interfere.

And in regards to the taxation argument, who from the open borders/amnesty crowd said anything about supporting funding immigrants through tax dollars? I'm sure you're aware of this by now but it isn't "illegal" immigration that has stolen the majority of your money and spent it on welfare and social security. As I said in a previous post, existing American citizens have supported the welfare/warfare state for over a century now but yet I don't hear anyone voicing support to deport them or remove their citizenship.

Fight the system, not the people that should be educated.

Tell me. What is your position on the current situation in NYC in regards to them 'cracking down' on knockoff brands?

BAllen
06-18-2013, 10:13 AM
Just like the white Europeans who slaughtered/diseased the natives and stole their land after invading it, eh?

Maybe if the U.S. were to just slaughter all Mexicans and steal the rest of that land too, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem, right?

It just always brings to light for me how ridiculous the illegal immigration debate sounds.

LOL!

http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news168.htm

TheBlackPeterSchiff
06-18-2013, 10:46 AM
I bet the majority of people with a negative view of capitalism dont even really know what capitialism is. "Conservatives" and America's fascist policy has mischaracterized the true nature of capitalism.

BAllen
06-18-2013, 10:57 AM
I bet the majority of people with a negative view of capitalism dont even really know what capitialism is. "Conservatives" and America's fascist policy has mischaracterized the true nature of capitalism.

Not conservatives, but rinos. There is a difference. As RP has said, he was the most conservative of the Republicans.

MelissaWV
06-18-2013, 04:12 PM
I blame your inability to remember I said "ANCHOR BABIES". By majority I mean the ones born here in the US shouldn't be considered legal if the illegal orifice they were shit out of was from Mexico.

I quoted you in my post.

Me not talking about anchor babies: I could explain further, but the same people wear me out over and over. I'll just say Hispanic =/= Mexican. Seriously. It doesn't even mean the person's some kind of immigrant, legal or otherwise.

You responding, not mentioning anchor babies: The majority are from Mexico. I don't need to prove it. We touch the fucking border from east to west. Concerning yourself with the distinction misses the point. The point is, minorities love liberalism. I blame affirmative action.

Weird, eh?

MelissaWV
06-18-2013, 04:15 PM
Hispanics should not be viewed as a group, as Cuban-Americans would be far different from Puerto Ricans or Mexicans

And even within those groups, current immigrants are likely to have different opinions from established 2nd or 3rd generation folks who still identify culturally as originating in one of those countries/territories.

HigherVision
06-18-2013, 05:54 PM
Who said anything about voting?

This statement right here reveals your disconnect with reality, and that of many free market anarchists I will add, more than any. When legalized these immigrants will be voting. It doesn't matter that democracy violates the non-aggression axiom and shouldn't exist, it does. And when they vote they will be voting for bigger government and bringing that into our lives. "Well democracy isn't legitimate anyway because the majority doesn't have the right to initiate force against the minority." But whether they have the right or not, they have the means to do it. Means is what matters in the real world.

green73
06-18-2013, 07:29 PM
The narco-criminal state with an ultra rich plutocratic layer and the remaining poor. Other than that it's great. At least the U.S. has three classes but we'll be Mexico very soon.

And the ruling class in America and abroad has absolutely nothing to do with this. It's all on those rotten Mexicans.

Occam's Banana
06-18-2013, 09:12 PM
And when they vote they will be voting for bigger government and bringing that into our lives.

And thus, they would be different from "non-immigrant" voters ... how, exactly?

"Dam immergrents! Dey terk er demercrecy! Dey put bigger gerverment in er lives!"

Jackie Moon
06-19-2013, 02:09 AM
Actually I thought the, "TEA Party movement" / "Occupy Wall Street" figures were the most interesting.


That and that the brainwashing on the young people SEEMS to be working...for the moment. That sort of thing can backlash hard.


There does seem to be some pretty squirrely looking columns and definitions scrambled in there if you poke at it.

That's what first stood out to me.

45% of Occupy Wall Street supporters have a positive view of capitalism?

And 12% of TEA Party supporters have a positive view of socialism?

The poll is interesting and I'm sure somewhat accurate, but it's tough when everyone has different definitions for "capitalism" and "socialism".

pathtofreedom
06-19-2013, 02:22 AM
Capitalism was a term coined by Marx.

HigherVision
06-19-2013, 03:17 AM
And thus, they would be different from "non-immigrant" voters ... how, exactly?

They vote almost exclusively for leftists.


"Dam immergrents! Dey terk er demercrecy! Dey put bigger gerverment in er lives!"

You should be a comedian that was awesome.

HigherVision
06-19-2013, 03:19 AM
Wow I didn't realize so many Ron Paul supporters were so P.C. That sucks. Good luck at turning all these La Raza people in libertarians, I'm sure that will go really well for you.


I bet the majority of people with a negative view of capitalism dont even really know what capitialism is. "Conservatives" and America's fascist policy has mischaracterized the true nature of capitalism.

They hate the real version just as much as the fake one.

Southron
06-19-2013, 05:41 AM
I would like to see a similar survey on views of the U.S. Constitution.

nobody's_hero
06-19-2013, 08:09 AM
I would like to see a similar survey on views of the U.S. Constitution.

Let's ask Sotomayor.

TheBlackPeterSchiff
06-19-2013, 08:47 AM
Wow I didn't realize so many Ron Paul supporters were so P.C. That sucks. Good luck at turning all these La Raza people in libertarians, I'm sure that will go really well for you.



They hate the real version just as much as the fake one.

Who is this "they" you speak of? You do know that these are individuals, right?

Occam's Banana
06-19-2013, 02:12 PM
They vote almost exclusively for leftists.

They overwhelmingly vote for big-government statists - just like "non-immigrant" voters overwhelmingly do.

James Madison
06-19-2013, 02:37 PM
The problem with many immigrant groups is both philosphical as well as theological. The spirit of the Protestant Reformation was a backlash against the tyrannical Church in Rome, and it lead to the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment. Concepts like Predestination, Imputed Righteousness, Total Depravity, and Sola Fide are necessary for free societies to form because they allow men to lead their lives without meddling governments trying to 'reform' them. If there is free will and salvation comes from within man and from his actions, you can be sure there will be those attempting to 'recreate' them in the image of their God. The Social Gospel and Great Awakening of the 19th Cetury bare testament to this. And, no, atheism will not save us, either.

HigherVision
06-19-2013, 07:04 PM
They overwhelmingly vote for big-government statists - just like "non-immigrant" voters overwhelmingly do.

They vote disproportionately left wing and would not even consider voting for a candidate who is fiscally conservative at all so worse then the rest.

HigherVision
06-19-2013, 07:06 PM
Who is this "they" you speak of? You do know that these are individuals, right?

I'm talking about the majority of Hispanic immigrants. Who get to vote when they're legalized.

Occam's Banana
06-19-2013, 08:23 PM
They vote disproportionately left wing and would not even consider voting for a candidate who is fiscally conservative at all so worse then the rest.

You can repeat this over and over and over and over, as much as you like. It still won't make any difference. The fact remains: the overwhelming majority of "non-immigrant" voters want politicians to give them "free stuff" - and the overwhelming majority of politicians are more than happy to oblige.

American "natives" (citizens & politicians, "left" & "right", "liberal" & "conservative") who have no problem mooching off and robbing their neighbors & fellow citizens in order to support their favored policies and programs are to blame for the mess we are in. Immigrants are no different than "natives" in this regard - they're just more of the same.

tod evans
06-19-2013, 08:26 PM
You can repeat this over and over and over and over, as much as you like. It still won't make any difference. The fact remains: the overwhelming majority of "non-immigrant" voters want politicians to give them "free stuff" - and the overwhelming majority of politicians are more than happy to oblige.

American "natives" (citizens & politicians, "left" & "right", "liberal" & "conservative") who have no problem mooching off and robbing their neighbors & fellow citizens in order to support their favored policies and programs are to blame for the mess we are in. Immigrants are no different than "natives" in this regard - they're just more of the same.

^^^^^^^^^Read this twice! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LibertyEagle
06-19-2013, 09:27 PM
Adding foreign dependents to the growing list of domestic, nativeborn dependents isn't a viable solution. It's hard enough convincing the native-born Boobus that these policies aren't in their best interests, nevermind those with a cultural and lingual disconnect.

+1

LibertyEagle
06-19-2013, 09:29 PM
You can repeat this over and over and over and over, as much as you like. It still won't make any difference. The fact remains: the overwhelming majority of "non-immigrant" voters want politicians to give them "free stuff" - and the overwhelming majority of politicians are more than happy to oblige.

American "natives" (citizens & politicians, "left" & "right", "liberal" & "conservative") who have no problem mooching off and robbing their neighbors & fellow citizens in order to support their favored policies and programs are to blame for the mess we are in. Immigrants are no different than "natives" in this regard - they're just more of the same.

More of the same who do not want capitalism, nor have any knowledge whatsoever of the principles upon which our country was founded.

We are already outnumbered. Why would we intentionally want to swing the pendulum even further? We are having a hard enough time educating Americans; we cannot educate the whole world.

Origanalist
06-19-2013, 09:38 PM
More of the same who do not want capitalism, nor have any knowledge whatsoever of the principles upon which our country was founded.

We are already outnumbered. Why would we intentionally want to swing the pendulum even further? We are having a hard enough time educating Americans; we cannot educate the whole world.

Somebody needs to tell that to the interventionalists.

gwax23
06-19-2013, 10:10 PM
We had pretty much open and unrestricted immigration till the early 20's. Almost anyone could hop on a boat, land in New York, and voila... American dream here I come.

You can find hardly anyone who would suggest that it was a bad thing..Our population grew tremendously, our economy exploded with growth, new cities popped up all over, and the west was won.

All the economic arguments against immigration are unfounded and based on fallacies. Such as the argument that immigrants steal jobs.

American culture is a melting pot of different groups, cultures, religions, and races. Its been a constantly developing and changing thing.

So whats the difference? The immigrants then where white? Now there sort of..brownish? History repeats itself. Every immigration wave people throw the same criticism at the immigrants. "They steal jobs" "They are criminals" "They want welfare" "They wont learn english" "Their communists" etc etc. Shit eventually fades away, immigrants assimilate and then begin to attack the newer immigrants. Its a Vicious cycle. It Happened with the Germans, The Irish, The Jews, The Italians and so on and so fourth.

Further Hispanics are not a monolithic group. Categorizing them as such is very misleading.

Lastly our welfare state is not going to last regardless of the added people. I rather it end faster rather then drag on for longer. If this added increase in immigrants will do that then Im all for it.

The Free Hornet
06-19-2013, 10:16 PM
I see this come up in arguments a lot and I'm just curious to know how many illegal immigrants you want to host on your property. I mean, sure it's none of my business, but, were you planning to invite a few thousand over and it's just that gov't regs prevent you from doing so? Because, if we're going to talk about property rights, then I'll fully stand by your right to have all the illegal immigrants sent to your house, but somehow, just somehow I think that you would be opposed to that.

You ask "how many" very specifically. Then you answer the question: "a few thousand".

You claim to support "property rights". Which implies - to you - that the state ought to "have all the illegal immigrants sent to your house".

Stop being a racist. I prefer to treat people as individuals. If somebody is here and isn't a vagrant or convicted of violating natural rights, then it isn't any business of yours of where they live.

You present us with two choices

a) be a racist like you
b) support millions of people

There is an option you omitted.

green73
06-19-2013, 10:21 PM
Capitalism was a term coined by Marx.

Not that it matters or is relevant to this thread, but you are wrong AGAIN. Seriously, do you get all of your education from internet memes and youtube videos?

The Free Hornet
06-19-2013, 10:21 PM
Hispanics should not be viewed as a group, as Cuban-Americans would be far different from Puerto Ricans or Mexicans

True, yet asking racists not to be racist is like asking water not to be wet.

The whole thread should be shit-canned:


+ Posts should not promote negativity in collectivist mindsets that view humans as members of groups rather than individuals. Such forms of collectivism include sexism, racism, antisemitism; they will not be tolerated here.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?22-Site-Policies-Usage-Guidelines-and-Other-Important-Information



*****


They vote disproportionately left wing and would not even consider voting for a candidate who is fiscally conservative at all so worse then the rest.

The Republican party is "disproportionately left wing"*. It is NOT "fiscally conservative". They could have stopped all the borrowing and spending. They could have stopped Romneycare (Judge Roberts). They didn't. They're not what you think they are. How the fuck do you not know this?

* If you define "left" as a variant of socialism or fascism.

The Free Hornet
06-19-2013, 10:24 PM
They vote disproportionately left wing and would not even consider voting for a candidate who is fiscally conservative at all so worse then the rest.

What is your race? From what countries did your peeps come? I wouldn't normally ask but you have firmly established and demanded that we stop dumb-ass anti-liberty motherfuckers from coming into this country. So whose loins did you slither from?


Added: The suggested number of those supporting freedom is "3%" (http://threepercenter.org/read.php?4,8). I wouldn't presume from where these people come now or in the future. Certainly not based on a dumb-ass poll.

gwax23
06-19-2013, 10:33 PM
I agree completely with The Free Hornet. This thread has degraded quickly into a racist rant by some less informed forum members. The views they are espousing are completely antithetical to Libertarian principles.

Occam's Banana
06-19-2013, 10:52 PM
More of the same who do not want capitalism, nor have any knowledge whatsoever of the principles upon which our country was founded.

And, therefore, not one whit different from the overwhelming majority of "native" Americans.


We are already outnumbered. Why would we intentionally want to swing the pendulum even further? We are having a hard enough time educating Americans; we cannot educate the whole world.

There is no pendulum. There has never been any pendulum. There has never been any "swing-back." There has been only a one-way. relentless progression towards more & bigger government, more & bigger welfare programs, more & greater dependency. FDR's "New Deal" ... LBJ's "Great Society" ... "Obamacare" ... etc., etc., ad nauseum ... and the blame for none of these things (or any other such monstrosities) can be laid upon the shoulders of immigrants.

Attributing today's state of affairs (or its future worsening) to immigrants who "won't vote right" is like scolding Juanito for playing with matches while the house burns down around us - when it was all-American firebug Little Johnny who set the place ablaze in the first place!

supermario21
06-19-2013, 11:13 PM
Our problem is not immigrants, it's our immigration policy. Someone referenced the time pre-1920s about there being basically open-borders. Yeah, it was open borders if you could speak English and have means of support. There was no welfare state back then. It also helped if you were coming from NW Europe. Southern Europeans didn't even start coming here till post-WWI really. Why? They couldn't afford it. Many were poor. Post WWII and there were vast immigration restrictions against the Axis nations and many others. My family went to Venezuela instead of the US because of this (Italians) and the great job opportunities there. Finally they came to the US, but that was after learning English and securing a sponsor. Not only have we expanded the welfare state, but we've also cheapened our immigration standards. Of course people with nothing will vote for the welfare state! To them, something is better than nothing, even if that something is worthless (ie a SS check our Medicaid insurance card) and driving our government into bankruptcy. It also doesn't help when the current Republican party is pushing for more warfare and the military to some immigrants may be the most viable job.

HigherVision
06-19-2013, 11:29 PM
True, yet asking racists not to be racist is like asking water not to be wet.

The whole thread should be shit-canned:





*****

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/DonaldDouglas/Americaneocon/2k42e6e364b3.gif

HigherVision
06-19-2013, 11:31 PM
More of the same who do not want capitalism, nor have any knowledge whatsoever of the principles upon which our country was founded.

We are already outnumbered. Why would we intentionally want to swing the pendulum even further? We are having a hard enough time educating Americans; we cannot educate the whole world.

^^^^^^^^^Read this twice! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

LibertyEagle
06-19-2013, 11:40 PM
You ask "how many" very specifically. Then you answer the question: "a few thousand".

You claim to support "property rights". Which implies - to you - that the state ought to "have all the illegal immigrants sent to your house".

Stop being a racist. I prefer to treat people as individuals. If somebody is here and isn't a vagrant or convicted of violating natural rights, then it isn't any business of yours of where they live.

You present us with two choices

a) be a racist like you
b) support millions of people

There is an option you omitted.

Your argument is the same type that some people use to shut down the conversation when they claim anyone is an anti-semite if they dare question the Israeli government's actions.

The Free Hornet
06-20-2013, 12:41 AM
Your argument is the same type that some people use to shut down the conversation when they claim anyone is an anti-semite if they dare question the Israeli government's actions.

They brought race into in the very first fucking post (to the extent that "White, Hispanic, Black" are races).

I'll try to use a more proper term in the future: collectivist.

Ender
06-20-2013, 12:54 AM
We had pretty much open and unrestricted immigration till the early 20's. Almost anyone could hop on a boat, land in New York, and voila... American dream here I come.

You can find hardly anyone who would suggest that it was a bad thing..Our population grew tremendously, our economy exploded with growth, new cities popped up all over, and the west was won.

All the economic arguments against immigration are unfounded and based on fallacies. Such as the argument that immigrants steal jobs.

American culture is a melting pot of different groups, cultures, religions, and races. Its been a constantly developing and changing thing.

So whats the difference? The immigrants then where white? Now there sort of..brownish? History repeats itself. Every immigration wave people throw the same criticism at the immigrants. "They steal jobs" "They are criminals" "They want welfare" "They wont learn english" "Their communists" etc etc. Shit eventually fades away, immigrants assimilate and then begin to attack the newer immigrants. Its a Vicious cycle. It Happened with the Germans, The Irish, The Jews, The Italians and so on and so fourth.

Further Hispanics are not a monolithic group. Categorizing them as such is very misleading.

Lastly our welfare state is not going to last regardless of the added people. I rather it end faster rather then drag on for longer. If this added increase in immigrants will do that then Im all for it.

Lot of truth in this post.

America did best financially with the influx of immigrants and they were hated then as they are now. The Irish Catholics really took a beating.

Get rid of entitlements and let the free market flourish.

HigherVision
06-20-2013, 12:58 AM
They brought race into in the very first fucking post (to the extent that "White, Hispanic, Black" are races).

I'll try to use a more proper term in the future: collectivist.

It's not collectivist to observe general tendencies of groups. If you want to say that there are no differences between races okay, organize an all white basketball team and compete in the NBA and let me know how that goes.


Get rid of entitlements and let the free market flourish.

How do you propose we get rid of entitlements, especially considering we're going to be competing against a massively expanded base of voters who are likely to be voting for more entitlements if they're legalized?

pcosmar
06-20-2013, 06:14 AM
How do you propose we get rid of entitlements, especially considering we're going to be competing against a massively expanded base of voters who are likely to be voting for more entitlements if they're legalized?

You won't. There will be no end to the welfare state until you get rid of the source.. (and it was not "Hispanics")

Folks have mentioned an open border policy till the 1920. That was also the time when The Federal reserve came into being,, Income tax was created.
Socialism infected this country.. Foreign powers (elitists/globalists) gained control.

it has been downhill ever since.

And this crap is not about Immigration. It is about expanding the power of the State. Immigration is the cover,, the selling point.

And folks are buying it again.

otherone
06-20-2013, 06:23 AM
It's not collectivist to observe general tendencies of groups.

No, but denying some people their inalienable Rights for the "good of the whole" is the very definition of Collectivism. Liberty is messy, brother.

Ender
06-20-2013, 10:24 AM
It's not collectivist to observe general tendencies of groups. If you want to say that there are no differences between races okay, organize an all white basketball team and compete in the NBA and let me know how that goes.



How do you propose we get rid of entitlements, especially considering we're going to be competing against a massively expanded base of voters who are likely to be voting for more entitlements if they're legalized?

POV's on race constantly change. There was a time when blacks were considered too stupid to play basketball and were barred from the profession. To decide that what you have been conditioned to think is Truth is a fallacy that most Americans fall for.

As for getting rid of entitlements, we have to educate the masses and get the upcoming Ron Pauls into office (if it's not too late). Only that will work. The good news is that it only takes 3% of the people to make real change.

JustinTime
06-20-2013, 11:18 AM
Attributing today's state of affairs (or its future worsening) to immigrants who "won't vote right" is like scolding Juanito for playing with matches while the house burns down around us - when it was all-American firebug Little Johnny who set the place ablaze in the first place!

In keeping with your analogy, Johnny set the fire, but Juanito is about to throw roofing tacks in the street so the firetruck never makes it.

That's essentially whats happening with our demographic changes, the traditional majority white America has been rotting for decades, but the massive demographic change is about to ensure we never get back to the beliefs and culture we were founded on.


American "natives" (citizens & politicians, "left" & "right", "liberal" & "conservative") who have no problem mooching off and robbing their neighbors & fellow citizens in order to support their favored policies and programs are to blame for the mess we are in. Immigrants are no different than "natives" in this regard - they're just more of the same.

Just more of the same, huh? What percentage of non-Hispanic whites view capitalism positively?

Ender
06-20-2013, 11:42 AM
Just more of the same, huh? What percentage of non-Hispanic whites view capitalism positively?

Actually, the real question is: How many PEOPLE, Hispanics or non-Hispanics, even know what real capitalism is?

tod evans
06-20-2013, 11:44 AM
Actually, the real question is: How many PEOPLE, Hispanics or non-Hispanics, even know what real capitalism is?

I've never experienced living in a truly capitalist society and I'm in my 50's..

pcosmar
06-20-2013, 12:12 PM
I've never experienced living in a truly capitalist society and I'm in my 50's..

Closest I've seen is a bunch of hippies and the Black Market.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lCMUkqpI7o


Well,, maybe the Keys,, back in the days. ;)

Origanalist
06-20-2013, 12:23 PM
Closest I've seen is a bunch of hippies and the Black Market.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lCMUkqpI7o


Well,, maybe the Keys,, back in the days. ;)

Last I saw it I bought this....:p http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg563/DouglasPaul/Untitled.jpg
No, not the honey bucket.....

pathtofreedom
06-20-2013, 12:34 PM
Not that it matters or is relevant to this thread, but you are wrong AGAIN. Seriously, do you get all of your education from internet memes and youtube videos?
http://adamsmithslostlegacy.blogspot.com/2009/01/free-capitalist-13-january-here-carries.html

nobody's_hero
06-20-2013, 01:57 PM
You ask "how many" very specifically. Then you answer the question: "a few thousand".

You claim to support "property rights". Which implies - to you - that the state ought to "have all the illegal immigrants sent to your house".

Stop being a racist. I prefer to treat people as individuals. If somebody is here and isn't a vagrant or convicted of violating natural rights, then it isn't any business of yours of where they live.

You present us with two choices

a) be a racist like you
b) support millions of people

There is an option you omitted.

*.Buuzzzzzt.* Thanks for playing. You may return to your seat.

I don't care if the immigrant is as white as a KKK member's wardrobe on laundry day. Philosophical divides are much more threatening to someone's way of life than the color of one's skin.

You get one guy who thinks the government should have no role in his life and put him in a room with 100 people who adamantly disagree, guess who loses that fight?

Refer back to the native American example I mentioned a few posts ago.

Edit: I'll save you the searching:



Just like the white Europeans who slaughtered/diseased the natives and stole their land after invading it, eh?

Maybe if the U.S. were to just slaughter all Mexicans and steal the rest of that land too, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem, right?

It just always brings to light for me how ridiculous the illegal immigration debate sounds.

Well, maybe it isn't that ridiculous. I love it when the native American example comes up in debate.

The native Americans surely would have fared better had they banded together and slaughtered the Europeans on the beaches of Virginia. But you know, the tribes were all very divided, communication was poor, and some felt that they might benefit from a relationship with the outsiders. Some had no problems with Europeans on their property (well, they had no concept of property, let's say they had no problem with Europeans living among them). The native Americans invited (or neglected) innumerable waves of newcomers to the shores. And, hell, why not? It was their right to do so. ;)

But the newcomers thought the Native American society to be backwards and archaic.

At first, the native Americans outnumbered the newcomers, and it really did not matter how backwards the whites thought the tribes were. But over time, through disease, war, and relocations, the natives lost their culture and their lands to the hordes. The white man brought along with them the concept of government where promises and treaties were made and broken and there was no appeal process for the natives. The new minority found themselves at the wrong end of a gun, many times.

Today some remnants of the native American society still survive in sparsely established reservations. Artifacts of their way-of-life can be found in museums.

/metaphor

I wonder if that is what will become of the already-losing capitalists.

All I ask is that if I'm gonna be relocated to a reservation please put me in the same tribe as Anti-Federalist.

MelissaWV
06-20-2013, 04:28 PM
You won't. There will be no end to the welfare state until you get rid of the source.. (and it was not "Hispanics")

Folks have mentioned an open border policy till the 1920. That was also the time when The Federal reserve came into being,, Income tax was created.
Socialism infected this country.. Foreign powers (elitists/globalists) gained control.

it has been downhill ever since.

And this crap is not about Immigration. It is about expanding the power of the State. Immigration is the cover,, the selling point.

And folks are buying it again.

Not I. It's just that I am likely to get it doubly bad.

I will still have to be tagged and followed, as everyone will, by programs like e-verify. There will still be drones patrolling the border on my dime. There will be 1,000 things to "secure the border" done with my money against my better judgment.

Of course, my identity is more likely than yours to set off e-verify warning bells. If I am hanging out in the wrong place, with the wrong people, I may be detained on suspicion of illegal activity (as illegal immigration is an illegal activity). And as a bonus I will be lumped in with and blamed for the perceived "immigrant problem," since I'm one of those godawful Hispanic voters.

* * *

That three percent people are referring to? You don't have to compromise your principles and bow and scrape and try to grow it if you don't want to. I respect that. Can we also agree that you won't work so damned hard, RPFs, to shrink it down to two percent by alienating the people you want to pretend are not part of the movement?

Occam's Banana
06-20-2013, 04:46 PM
In keeping with your analogy, Johnny set the fire, but Juanito is about to throw roofing tacks in the street so the firetruck never makes it.

That is not "in keeping" with my analogy. First (and most obviously), I already told you what Little Juan is doing. Second, why is Juanito to be accused of "throwing tacks" when LIttle Johnny can just as easily (and with far greater and more clinching evidence) be accused of doing the exactly the same thing (which, if you were paying attention, you would know is the whole point of the analogy in the first place). Third, there is no "fire truck" coming and there isn't going to be one.

Analogy Hijack Fail. Please try again.


Just more of the same, huh? What percentage of non-Hispanic whites view capitalism positively?

What percentage of anyone (non-Hispanic whites or otherwise) has any goddam idea what capitalism even is?
Mr. A wants a free market and says he hates capitalism because it is a cronyistic corruption of the free market.
Mr. B wants a free market and says he loves capitalism because it *is* the free market.
They both want exactly the same thing - a free market - but they have diametrically opposite "views" of capitalism.
To put it shortly: not only is your question irrelevant, but any answer it might have would illuminate exactly nothing.

JustinTime
06-20-2013, 08:01 PM
That is not "in keeping" with my analogy. First (and most obviously), I already told you what Little Juan is doing. Second, why is Juanito to be accused of "throwing tacks" when LIttle Johnny can just as easily (and with far greater and more clinching evidence) be accused of doing the exactly the same thing (which, if you were paying attention, you would know is the whole point of the analogy in the first place). Third, there is no "fire truck" coming and there isn't going to be one.

Analogy Hijack Fail. Please try again.

"Little Johnny", whom I guess is a metaphor for white America, has set the house on fire. Under a white majority we've allowed our freedom to be eroded and each successive generation to become stupider and stupider.

"Juanito", the new Hispanic/Minority-Majority America, will ensure no rescue will be made.


What percentage of anyone (non-Hispanic whites or otherwise) has any goddam idea what capitalism even is?

Many people confuse capitalism with cronyism, but the difference is most conservative whites are willing to learn, and most left leaning whites utterly refuse to even consider the difference.

Now the left leaning whites are having their numbers bolstered with a massive influx of people who think the way they think. So no rescues is possible. No "fire truck" is on the way to save whats left.

I also understand the US has had a role in getting Hispanics to see capitalism in such a negative way, but frankly that's no excuse to screw the entire country.

AuH20
06-20-2013, 08:45 PM
"Little Johnny", whom I guess is a metaphor for white America, has set the house on fire. Under a white majority we've allowed our freedom to be eroded and each successive generation to become stupider and stupider.

"Juanito", the new Hispanic/Minority-Majority America, will ensure no rescue will be made.



Many people confuse capitalism with cronyism, but the difference is most conservative whites are willing to learn, and most left leaning whites utterly refuse to even consider the difference.

Now the left leaning whites are having their numbers bolstered with a massive influx of people who think the way they think. So no rescues is possible. No "fire truck" is on the way to save whats left.

I also understand the US has had a role in getting Hispanics to see capitalism in such a negative way, but frankly that's no excuse to screw the entire country.

I appreciate the simple analogy for those who don't get it.

The Free Hornet
06-20-2013, 10:27 PM
*.Buuzzzzzt.* Thanks for playing. You may return to your seat.

I don't care if the immigrant is as white as a KKK member's wardrobe on laundry day. Philosophical divides are much more threatening to someone's way of life than the color of one's skin.

I'll accept without apology that we only allow pro-liberty people to become citizens and vote.

What I don't accept is the premise that we judge pro-libertyness by a white(non-Hispanic)/black(non-Hispanic)/white-black(Hispanic) litmus test.

The argument isn't even really about voting - even if it may come to that someday. We have a situation where the Federal government actively prevents state enforcement of immigration law (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/06/u-s-v-arizona-feds-sue-to-block-state-immigration-law/) while other efforts seek to have employers or landlords (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=illegal+to+rent+to+immigrant) - who are often legally prevented from 'country of origin' like inquiries and other anti-discrimination laws.

What you and TPTB seem to want is a permanent underclass of 10million+ that can't legally work, live, or drive but will present endless opportunities for state prison workers, Federal immigration and Homeland types, and dozens of other "social service" public-sector employees to earn a living. They've milked the poor, inner-city youth for just about all their worth and need to move on to a new class to imprison and, generally, make toxic for non-state people to interact with.

I want a truce, a normalization of the status quo that ends the bullshit and puts the burden of so-called national sovereignty of the a-holes who claim to give a damn about it.

Here are your options

a) stop people at the border
b) ship undocumented out
c) shut the fuck up

Anything else is bullshit. Don't lecture us on how you think some group will vote. Your lilly-white relatives made their choice (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=romney) very clear.

The Free Hornet
06-20-2013, 10:29 PM
I appreciate the simple analogy for those who don't get it.

You appreciate this:


but the difference is most conservative whites are willing to learn

What the fuck? You have no idea what you're up against. Just because they don't punch you in the face at a cocktail party, that doesn't mean there is any hope for them.

The Free Hornet
06-20-2013, 10:35 PM
And anybody concerned about "birthright citizenship" should support its removal for ALL babies regardless of their parents citizen status.

A voter should meet minimum standards of some combination of taxes paid (primarily) and education achieved (as a secondary condition). We should end anonymous voting for both citizens and Congress critters (voice votes and 'approved by acclamation'). Bring back the poll tax. No skin in the game? Stay home!

I'm happy to make it hard to become a citizen. Bellyaching about the color of a baby... not so much.

Michelangelo
06-20-2013, 11:07 PM
And anybody concerned about "birthright citizenship" should support its removal for ALL babies regardless of their parents citizen status.

A voter should meet minimum standards of some combination of taxes paid (primarily) and education achieved (as a secondary condition). We should end anonymous voting for both citizens and Congress critters (voice votes and 'approved by acclamation'). Bring back the poll tax. No skin in the game? Stay home!

I'm happy to make it hard to become a citizen. Bellyaching about the color of a baby... not so much.

I like this proposal. As a third condition I'd add a residency requirement. Something like being physically present in the US or its territories three out of the five past years. Are you moving to retire in the Caribbean or migrating to Australia? Poof goes your citizenship!

I've always found dual citizenship a weird concept. Multiple- permanent residency I can understand. There are benefits to being able to travel and do business easily. Swearing allegiance to multiple nations? Not so much.

NIU Students for Liberty
06-20-2013, 11:32 PM
I haven't checked this thread in a couple of days but I'm sure by now someone has countered my original argument with the standard "Immigration will only add a larger economic burden due to the welfare system already in place." response. My take:

#1 - If we are to go along with the "immigrants will leach off the system" premise, I can think of no easier way to bring welfare crashing down than to open the borders.

#2 - The typical immigrant is not risking their health and their life savings to come to the U.S. for link cards. They're coming here to work and improve their social and economic well-being.

#3 - Common sense dictates that in order for an immigrant to make the long and physical journey to the U.S., they are generally young and relatively healthy. Those are the type of people who tend to pay more in taxes than what they'd receive in government benefits, IE: medicare and social security.

#4 - Granted I don't agree with this solution but if you want to pay off the debt, now you have a new demographic to tax.

#5 - And why focus on immigrants from outside the country when it comes to economic drains on American citizens? According to the logic of immigration opponents, movement from Mississippi (the poorest state) into New Hampshire (the richest state) should be restricted.

#6 - Since we're worried about added economic costs of welfare, I guess immigration opponents here better stop calling for an end to the War on Drugs since legalization has the potential to increase addiction which can lead to unemployment.

HigherVision
06-21-2013, 12:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK7K0itgQt0

The left understand it even if we don't.


No, but denying some people their inalienable Rights for the "good of the whole" is the very definition of Collectivism. Liberty is messy, brother.

When the data collected indicates that the people who want to come here mostly don't recognize my inalienable rights, I stop recognizing theirs. It's called self-defense brother. These people want to come here and impose socialism on me, I want to stop it. Wish it wasn't that way but it is.

otherone
06-21-2013, 05:21 AM
When the data collected indicates that the people who want to come here mostly don't recognize my inalienable rights, I stop recognizing theirs. It's called self-defense brother. These people want to come here and impose socialism on me, I want to stop it. Wish it wasn't that way but it is.

Always question official "data". It's not the immigrants who deny you Rights, it's GOVERNMENT. You are succumbing to State-sponsored xenophobia and class warfare.

seraphson
06-21-2013, 06:42 AM
What percentage of anyone (non-Hispanic whites or otherwise) has any goddam idea what capitalism even is?


Very view I'll to you that! Funny how I was listening to some music on YT and come arcross the top comment for this song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InRDF_0lfHk):

We lost because we were fighting an enemy that would only give up after they all died. They were fighting for freedom and to run their country the way they wanted. We were fighting for something most soldiers didn't even understand, Capitalism.

Talk about a holy-fucking-hell non sequiter. Anyone find the irony in how he's concluding that "they" didn't even understand Capitalism?

pcosmar
06-21-2013, 07:05 AM
. These people want to come here and impose socialism on me, I want to stop it.

There is already socialism here. Full Blown Socialism.
No One is bringing it,, or imposing it. It is the present State,, despite claims of a constitutional Republic.

The Constitution is gutted or completely ignored,, and that is done by elected officials and established citizens.

Quit with the boogieman bullshit.. End the Federal Reserve,, Income Tax and Welfare. End Socialized medicine and the massive regulation of the markets.

End this shit.. and immigration will be no problem. No one is coming here to destroy America.
Americans have already done that.

tod evans
06-21-2013, 07:09 AM
These people want to come here and impose socialism on me,

Our government is, and has been, imposing socialism.

This is an attempt to deflect.

Origanalist
06-21-2013, 07:19 AM
There is already socialism here. Full Blown Socialism.
No One is bringing it,, or imposing it. It is the present State,, despite claims of a constitutional Republic.

The Constitution is gutted or completely ignored,, and that is done by elected officials and established citizens.

Quit with the boogieman bullshit.. End the Federal Reserve,, Income Tax and Welfare. End Socialized medicine and the massive regulation of the markets.

End this shit.. and immigration will be no problem. No one is coming here to destroy America.
Americans have already done that.

I cannot dispute your logic sir.

georgiaboy
06-21-2013, 07:27 AM
There is already socialism here. Full Blown Socialism.
No One is bringing it,, or imposing it. It is the present State,, despite claims of a constitutional Republic.

The Constitution is gutted or completely ignored,, and that is done by elected officials and established citizens.

Quit with the boogieman bullshit.. End the Federal Reserve,, Income Tax and Welfare. End Socialized medicine and the massive regulation of the markets.

End this shit.. and immigration will be no problem. No one is coming here to destroy America.
Americans have already done that.

Yeah, the immigration debate falls on my deaf ears because it seems to be missing the point entirely, and taking all the oxygen out of the room for the real conversations that need to be had.

pcosmar
06-21-2013, 07:35 AM
Yeah, the immigration debate falls on my deaf ears because it seems to be missing the point entirely, and taking all the oxygen out of the room for the real conversations that need to be had.

It has always been a smokescreen. Go all the way back to Rex84.
To the camps that were prepared "for illegal aliens". and again under Bush Jr when KBR got contracted to refurbish those camps. (for illegal aliens)

Illegal aliens have been a smoke screen for building a Police State infrastructure.

This bullshit is over "Real ID" Over Tracking Americans. over an even more intrusive and invasive Police State.

Immigration is a smokescreen.. it always has been.

HigherVision
06-21-2013, 10:29 AM
Quit with the boogieman bullshit.. End the Federal Reserve,, Income Tax and Welfare. End Socialized medicine and the massive regulation of the markets.

End this shit.. and immigration will be no problem. No one is coming here to destroy America.
Americans have already done that.

Again, how are you going to do all of this when voters are already largely against these ideas and now we're importing millions more voters that are much more opposed to limiting the power of government than the average American even is? Policies don't come out of nowhere, they largely reflect the values and beliefs of the citizenry. And the immigrants aren't 'boogiemen', they're real people who are on average radically opposed to the values of individual liberty that America was founded upon.

Origanalist
06-21-2013, 10:35 AM
Again, how are you going to do all of this when voters are already largely against these ideas and now we're importing millions more voters that are much more opposed to limiting the power of government than the average American even is? Policies don't come out of nowhere, they largely reflect the values and beliefs of the citizenry. And the immigrants aren't 'boogiemen', they're real people who are on average radically opposed to the values of individual liberty that America was founded upon.

So are you're average American, look around you.

AuH20
06-21-2013, 10:39 AM
Again, how are you going to do all of this when voters are already largely against these ideas and now we're importing millions more voters that are much more opposed to limiting the power of government than the average American even is? Policies don't come out of nowhere, they largely reflect the values and beliefs of the citizenry. And the immigrants aren't 'boogiemen', they're real people who are on average radically opposed to the values of individual liberty that America was founded upon.

Increase the power of the 'mobocracy' exponentially via importation. That's what "open borders" translates into in America 2013 as opposed to 1888. Boobus isn't deluded and depraved enough, so we need to replace him with a more 'forward-looking' citizen that will be more receptive to the coming New World Order.

JustinTime
06-21-2013, 04:27 PM
You appreciate this:



What the fuck? You have no idea what you're up against. Just because they don't punch you in the face at a cocktail party, that doesn't mean there is any hope for them.

Im not talking about people who attend cocktail parties, the elite and establishment "conservatives" who have no illusions. Those people know what theyre doing.

Im talking about average middle class and small business people. People who usually vote GOP, and are somewhat neocon, but only because they have been fed lies ad infinitum. Clear up the lies and these types usually listen.

But if you insist on seeing everyone as a bred to the bone, 100% enemy of freedom, go right ahead.


What I don't accept is the premise that we judge pro-libertyness by a white(non-Hispanic)/black(non-Hispanic)/white-black(Hispanic) litmus test.

Whos doing that? I just don't want amnesty given to illegal immigrants, and illegal immigrants come in all colors.

JustinTime
06-21-2013, 04:31 PM
There is already socialism here. Full Blown Socialism.
No One is bringing it,, or imposing it. It is the present State,, despite claims of a constitutional Republic.

The Constitution is gutted or completely ignored,, and that is done by elected officials and established citizens.

Quit with the boogieman bullshit.. End the Federal Reserve,, Income Tax and Welfare. End Socialized medicine and the massive regulation of the markets.

Yeah, but if this "immigration reform" goes through, you never will end it! That's the whole goddamn point of this thread!

Occam's Banana
06-21-2013, 08:29 PM
"Little Johnny", whom I guess is a metaphor for white America, has set the house on fire. Under a white majority we've allowed our freedom to be eroded and each successive generation to become stupider and stupider.

"Juanito", the new Hispanic/Minority-Majority America, will ensure no rescue will be made.

All of this is correct - except the "will ensure no rescue will be made" bit. No rescue will be made - period. "Little Johnny" ensures that it won't - quite regardless of the presence or absence of "Little Juan."


Many people confuse capitalism with cronyism, but the difference is most conservative whites are willing to learn, and most left leaning whites utterly refuse to even consider the difference.

Most conservative whites are not "willing to learn." The great majority of them imagine that hacks & frauds like Paul "I have to vote against my principles in order to uphold my principles" Ryan (who was pro-TARP, pro-bailout, and pro-Medicare-Part-D, among many other contemptible things) stand as champions against the depredations of the "liberals" and "progressives." In other words, most of them are deluded fools. And those "white conservatives" who actually are "willing to learn" are far too few in number to make any difference - even if you remove all the Hispanic or other immigrant types from the equation.

It was not "commies" or socialists (let alone immigrants of any kind) who spearheaded the birthing of the modern regulatory State. It was (among others) "white conservative" businessmen who howled about the need for regulation to eliminate things like unfair "dog-eat-dog" competition and the disruptive chaos produced by truly free markets. This dovetailed perfectly with the collectivist agenda pursued by progressives - a match made in Hell. Immigrants & immigration had nothing to do with it then, and they have nothing to do with it today. Deport them all today if you like (every last one of them) - and prevent any more of them from coming in the future - but nothing will change.

The existence of the massively bloated, all-encompassing, all-devouring Welfare-Warfare State is simply not contingent upon the presence or absence of immigrants. It never has been and it never will be. Immigrants did not cause our descent into Hell and they are not responsible for our continued residence there.


Now the left leaning whites are having their numbers bolstered with a massive influx of people who think the way they think. So no rescues is possible. No "fire truck" is on the way to save whats left.

America's population today stands at almost one-third of a billion people. At the federal level, those people are "represented" by a mere 536 elected officials (435 House Reps, 100 Senators and 1 President). Add to this the fact that each voter gets to cast 7 federal ballots (at most) for 4 offices (1 House seat, 2 Senate seats, and 1 President) during any 6 year period - 2 or 3 for (just one) House seat, 2 for Senate, and 1 or 2 for President - and the picture becomes even more grotesquely absurd. Those ratios and frequencies are so fantastically out-of-whack that the addition or subtraction of a dozen or two millions of immigrants isn't going to make any significant difference, one way or the other - regardless of what policies those immigrants embrace or reject.


I also understand the US has had a role in getting Hispanics to see capitalism in such a negative way, but frankly that's no excuse to screw the entire country.

The country is already screwed - utterly regardless of what Hispanics think about "capitalism" (however defined). Ultimately, politics is nothing more than a dispute between various gangs of sociopaths & moochers arguing over how to divvy up the booty they've plundered from others. In America, this fact has manifested itself in the form of a two-party (Republican vs. Democrat), two-"wing" ("liberal" vs. "conservative") duopoly. The inferno of debt, war, dependecy & control stoked by the duopoly will rage on unabated, no matter which side of the duopoly Hispanic immigrants throw in with. And it will continue to do so even if every single Hispanic immigrant vanished in a puff of smoke right this moment.

The only viable solution - as fantastically difficult, unlikely and fraught with peril as it may be - is to just abandon the building and let it burn to smoldering ashes - right down to the ground. Nullification. Repudiation. Rejection. Decentralization. Localization. Dissolution. Secession. These are key. And if these things turn out to be impossible (or merely too difficult to achieve), then we are well & truly doomed, and that is all. All this storm and stress over immigration amounts to no more than a rearrangement of the proverbial deck chairs.

Occam's Banana
06-21-2013, 08:37 PM
Yeah, but if this "immigration reform" goes through, you never will end it! That's the whole goddamn point of this thread!

And if this "immigration reform" does not go through, you still won't end it. That is the whole counter-point.

HigherVision
06-21-2013, 09:09 PM
Occam's Banana I have to say that your stance on this is pretty disgraceful. You're basically willing to watch the country go down in flames for the sake of political correctness, and on the weak rationalization that "it'll probably happen anyway." None of the third world people who immigrate to America feel that way about their political culture, that's why they seek to import it into America rather than assimilating.

NIU Students for Liberty
06-21-2013, 10:00 PM
Occam's Banana I have to say that your stance on this is pretty disgraceful. You're basically willing to watch the country go down in flames for the sake of political correctness, and on the weak rationalization that "it'll probably happen anyway." None of the third world people who immigrate to America feel that way about their political culture, that's why they seek to import it into America rather than assimilating.

I think Occam was referring to the government, not the country.

Ender
06-21-2013, 10:03 PM
Occam's Banana I have to say that your stance on this is pretty disgraceful. You're basically willing to watch the country go down in flames for the sake of political correctness, and on the weak rationalization that "it'll probably happen anyway." None of the third world people who immigrate to America feel that way about their political culture, that's why they seek to import it into America rather than assimilating.

Occam's Banana is on the nose- 1000% correct.

I'd say it's your stance that is pretty disgraceful- blaming brown people for the country's demise. It is you who is preaching "political correctness".

It is the same line of thought that has been prevalent since America was born. It's those dirty foreigners that are ruining our country. Those rotten Irish-Catholics, Jews, Italians, Germans, whoever, are always ruining the country because they won't assimilate and become real Americans like the rest of us, who also came from foreign countries.

Never mind our gansta government.

nobody's_hero
06-21-2013, 10:13 PM
Nvm it ain't worth it.

HigherVision
06-21-2013, 11:13 PM
Occam's Banana is on the nose- 1000% correct.

I'd say it's your stance that is pretty disgraceful- blaming brown people for the country's demise. It is you who is preaching "political correctness".

It is the same line of thought that has been prevalent since America was born. It's those dirty foreigners that are ruining our country. Those rotten Irish-Catholics, Jews, Italians, Germans, whoever, are always ruining the country because they won't assimilate and become real Americans like the rest of us, who also came from foreign countries.

Never mind our gansta government.

Yeah government comes out of nowhere, it has nothing to do with the values and beliefs it's citizenry holds. Also I'm open to the possibility that my immigrant ancestors were somewhat of a pain in the ass to the native population at the time. But they weren't waving around signs saying Europeans Get The Fuck Out either.

I'm going to tap out of this thread though, there's no point. If you guys want to chalk that up to me admitting defeat and declare victory over me, that's fine. You'll need to save your debating energy anyway for convincing all these legalized new Americans that you're not racist and they shouldn't be socialists, to fruitless results in the future.

BAllen
06-21-2013, 11:15 PM
Yeah government comes out of nowhere, it has nothing to do with the values and beliefs it's citizenry holds. Also I'm open to the possibility that my immigrant ancestors were somewhat of a pain in the ass to the native population at the time. But they weren't waving around signs saying Europeans Get The Fuck Out either.

Don't bang your head on a tree trying to explain it to them...........they're useful idiots.

Occam's Banana
06-22-2013, 01:27 AM
Occam's Banana I have to say that your stance on this is pretty disgraceful.

Yeah, whatever. Since you don't seem to have managed to achieve even the least tenuous grasp upon what I've actually said (as evidenced by your asinine babble about "political correctness" on my part) - let alone to have actually addressed or refuted any of the points I've made - you will have to forgive me if I am not terribly impressed by whatever you might imagine is "disgraceful" about my "stance."


You're basically willing to watch the country go down in flames

Bullshit. I am willing to do no such thing. I am, however, entirely unwilling to waste my time bitching & pissing about the urgent & critical need for "immigration reform" (one way or the other) when it hasn't got jack-shit to do with how we got into the mess we are in today - or with how we get out of it.


for the sake of political correctness,

Political correctness? Do you have even the vaguest idea as to the meanings of the words and phrases you use? Or do you just throw ridiculous epithets around when you haven't got any actual counter-point to make? I very clearly declared in my previous post that I think the only approach that has any hope of success (albeit perhaps only a very slim one) is, essentially, secession. Secession. Are you so ignorant and/or obtuse that you imagine that this would do anything but brand me as a "neo-Confederate" and "racist" in the eyes of anyone who gives a shit about "political correctness"?

Political correctness, my ass! You seem to be operating under the profound misapprehension that I give a shit about the tender sensitivities of the poor, downtrodden masses from abroad. I assure you that I do not. Nor have I said anything in any of my posts in this thread (or elsehwere) that would give you any warrant for claiming or suggesting that I do. Furthermore, I have not in any way said or even implied that you are a "racist" or that you are being "insensitive" or "bigoted" or any such thing. Nor do any of the claims I have made involve any kind of assumption of such attitudes on your part. As incorrect as you may think they are, the points & arguments I have put forward haven't got jack to do with any of that crap. So go stick your "political correctness" bullshit into the anatomical orifice of your choice.


and on the weak rationalization that "it'll probably happen anyway."

I have neither asserted nor implied that "it'll probably happen anyway." I have said that it will happen, ceteris paribus, regardless of the state of "immigration reform." (The fact that you are unable to discern the critical difference speaks volumes.) I have stated my reasons for this - reasons which you fail to address in favor of calling me "disgraceful." I have stated what course I think should pursued in lieu of whinging about "immigration reform." I have stated my reasons for this - reasons which you fail to address in favor of accusing me of "political correctness." I may be wrong. I may be entirely, cataclysmically, cosmically wrong. But you have done nothing to show that this is the case. I have rationalized nothing (though your lack of substantive reply makes it clear that you wish that I had). And again - you have done nothing to show otherwise.


None of the third world people who immigrate to America feel that way about their political culture, that's why they seek to import it into America rather than assimilating.

They have no need to "import" the political culture of collectivist dependency & debt. It is already here - it has been here all along - and it is entirely home-grown. "Immigration reform" isn't going to do a goddam thing to change that, one way or the other.

As evidence of this, I defy you to name one - just one - federal program or such-like thing that we would not have and that would not be replaced with something equally as odious if it were not for immigrants' voting habits & "political culture."

AuH20
06-22-2013, 01:43 AM
Occam's Banana is on the nose- 1000% correct.

I'd say it's your stance that is pretty disgraceful- blaming brown people for the country's demise. It is you who is preaching "political correctness".

It is the same line of thought that has been prevalent since America was born. It's those dirty foreigners that are ruining our country. Those rotten Irish-Catholics, Jews, Italians, Germans, whoever, are always ruining the country because they won't assimilate and become real Americans like the rest of us, who also came from foreign countries.

Never mind our gansta government.

Do you realize that today's migration numbers dwarf those of the early 19th century? It's not even debatable. This is an epidemic. This isn't a 100 thousand Scots coming over or 200 hundred thousand Germans. This is TENS OF MILLIONS human beings with very tangible needs and I suspect the 11 million estimate is cooked as well.

The "No Vacancy - UNDER REPAIR" sign needs to go up. We don't need tens of millions cooks, maids, produce pickers and lawn "specialists" with a concealed unemployment rate headed towards 20%. Secondly, it's not as if this country is undeveloped and needs large multitudes of manual labor for a transnational railroad or ambitious canal project. Those days are long goneby, thanks to infrastructure improvements and technological advancements.

Ender
06-22-2013, 02:03 AM
Yeah government comes out of nowhere, it has nothing to do with the values and beliefs it's citizenry holds. Also I'm open to the possibility that my immigrant ancestors were somewhat of a pain in the ass to the native population at the time. But they weren't waving around signs saying Europeans Get The Fuck Out either.

I'm going to tap out of this thread though, there's no point. If you guys want to chalk that up to me admitting defeat and declare victory over me, that's fine. You'll need to save your debating energy anyway for convincing all these legalized new Americans that you're not racist and they shouldn't be socialists, to fruitless results in the future.

The problem is your lack of real history knowledge. Immigration is not the problem- the US has had great financial success during times of heavy immigration but there has always been deep prejudice. The same carp being said today has always been said.

The Irish-Catholics were especially hated and many were put through such hell that they fled to Mexico and fought with the Mexicans in the Mexican American War. They were tortured as deserters, when caught.


Declaring oneself to be Irish and Catholic in the U.S. army at that time was akin to declaring oneself Jewish in Nazi Germany, a point graphically made by the Mexican-Jewish artist, Luis Camnitzer.

Religion was another major issue in the conflict, which has been ignored or glossed over by many historians. The invading U.S. Army deliberately bombarded Catholic cathedrals, churches and convents in Mexico; and U.S. soldiers often brutally interrupted Mass service, religious processions and other citizen religious services.
*
Pursuing this theme, Hogan quotes a Mexican newspaper which condemned the "savage outrages" to which the condemned San Patricios were subjected to by U.S. Army officials: "Mexicans, these are the men that call us barbarians and tell us that they have come to civilize us. These men who have sacked our homes, taken our daughters, camped in our holy burial places, covered themselves in blasphemous uproar with the ornaments of our altars--and have gotten drunk from our sacred chalices."

As the war progressed, the Irish grouped in the San Patricio battalion, under a green banner with St Patrick and the Mexican eagle, distinguished themselves as artillery specialists and inflicted heavy casualties on the US invaders at the battles of Monterey and Buena Vista. But the Mexican forces were being pushed back towards the capital as Santa Anna made a series of tactical blunders.
*
Those who survived the Churubusco battle and were captured were soon court-martialed for desertion. The historian, Michael Hogan, author of The Irish Soldiers Of Mexico, says the punishments inflicted on the Irish went beyond what was allowed by the military code of the day and that the whole episode was denied for years by the US army and still remains deeply hidden in USA history to this very day.

The hangings and brandings were particularly brutal. Thirty officers of the condemned were forced to wait for hours with the noose around their necks until the final Mexican surrender at Chapultepec Castle.

http://noraid.com/SaintPatrick.htm

Ender
06-22-2013, 02:13 AM
Do you realize that today's migration numbers dwarf those of the early 19th century? It's not even debatable. This is an epidemic. This isn't a 100 thousand Scots coming over or 200 hundred thousand Germans. This is TENS OF MILLIONS human beings with very tangible needs and I suspect the 11 million estimate is cooked as well.

The "No Vacancy - UNDER REPAIR" sign needs to go up. We don't need tens of millions cooks, maids, produce pickers and lawn "specialists" with a concealed unemployment rate headed towards 20%. Secondly, it's not as if this country is undeveloped and needs large multitudes of manual labor for a transnational railroad or ambitious canal project. Those days are long goneby, thanks to infrastructure improvements and technological advancements.

Never been in the Midwest, I take it- miles and miles of nothing. And where I am, if we didn't have "cooks, maids, produce pickers and lawn "specialists", the whole area would fall apart financially. The problems we have are from the inside. "We have found the enemy and he is us."

And BTW tell your "No Vacancy/under repair" stuff to my Cherokee ancestors who were friendly to the Europeans when they got here and even helped them write the Constitution.

AuH20
06-22-2013, 02:20 AM
Never been in the Midwest, I take it- miles and miles of nothing. And where I am, if we didn't have "cooks, maids, produce pickers and lawn "specialists", the whole area would fall apart financially. The problems we have are from the inside. "We have found the enemy and he is us."

And BTW tell your "under repair" stuff to my Cherokee ancestors who were friendly to the Europeans when they got here and even helped them write the Constitution.

It's a numbers issue as I outlined before. No one would give a rat's ass if there were 10,000 cherokees here illegally or 250,000 green men for that matter. Americans are a very generous and tolerant people, but they don't like being taken advantage of. We have millions of undocumented here, and they have to gall to march on the street and demand X, Y, Z like there is a menu or civic catalog attached to every utility pole. Can you imagine if millions of Americans went into another country and then DEMANDED citizenship from the local government? What do you think the outcome would be? That's really the hypothetical litmus test which illustrates the absurdity at work here. This type of emotionally based tripe would not fly in other locales, with the resistance being projected as racially motivated.

pathtofreedom
06-22-2013, 03:03 AM
People don't like a system unless they benefit from it. Once people start to make money then all of a sudden capitalism is great. When they no longer make money capitalism is evil and unfair.

nobody's_hero
06-22-2013, 06:45 AM
And BTW tell your "No Vacancy/under repair" stuff to my Cherokee ancestors who were friendly to the Europeans when they got here and even helped them write the Constitution.

Please follow the story of your ancestors all the way to the ending.

Where are the Cherokee now? Living on plots of land not-of-their-choosing with the occasional odd tourist driving through to snap pictures of them like they're some animal in a zoo. Is that the outcome for America?

Think of me what you will, but 'being friendly' to the Europeans didn't work out so well in the end for the native Americans.

You hear of any Muscogee these days? That's my ancestry. Practically wiped out by the 'harmless' immigrant. Why didn't they just teach the newcomers about their culture and philosophy? Could it be that the newcomers just didn't care?

Now, don't get me wrong, it's waaaay to late to save native American culture. But think of yourself as a modern day native American, learn from history, and study how smaller cultures are eventually rooted out by the larger ones. Is there any chance here whatsoever that history might repeat itself?

The only remotely honest support for open-door immigration is based in the belief that it will speed along a collapse. That is about the only point on which people on both sides of this debate will agree.

JustinTime
06-22-2013, 09:50 AM
All of this is correct - except the "will ensure no rescue will be made" bit. No rescue will be made - period. "Little Johnny" ensures that it won't - quite regardless of the presence or absence of "Little Juan."



Most conservative whites are not "willing to learn." The great majority of them imagine that hacks & frauds like Paul "I have to vote against my principles in order to uphold my principles" Ryan (who was pro-TARP, pro-bailout, and pro-Medicare-Part-D, among many other contemptible things) stand as champions against the depredations of the "liberals" and "progressives." In other words, most of them are deluded fools. And those "white conservatives" who actually are "willing to learn" are far too few in number to make any difference - even if you remove all the Hispanic or other immigrant types from the equation.

Yes, many white conservatives are deluded fools, and have supported shitty things, but they've done this because they've been lied to. That can be fixed with truth.

Now people who simply don't like capitalism, freedom, limited government, they wont change no matter what you tell them.


It was not "commies" or socialists (let alone immigrants of any kind) who spearheaded the birthing of the modern regulatory State. It was (among others) "white conservative" businessmen who howled about the need for regulation to eliminate things like unfair "dog-eat-dog" competition and the disruptive chaos produced by truly free markets.

You're taking about a small cadre of white "conservative" (just ask 'em, they'll tell ya) cronies who use the force of government to fill their pockets.

Im talking about millions of middle-class and working people, small business owners and the like.

I know these people are coming around. I listen to a local talk-radio show almost every day, when I started tuning in around 2006 the show was neocon central, full of people talking about "duh turrists" and
"Gawd" and "suppote duh troops".

Now they oppose military interference in Syria and want to abolish the Fed. Id say at least half support Ed Snowden. They're not perfect but they are coming around.


This dovetailed perfectly with the collectivist agenda pursued by progressives - a match made in Hell. Immigrants & immigration had nothing to do with it then, and they have nothing to do with it today. Deport them all today if you like (every last one of them) - and prevent any more of them from coming in the future - but nothing will change.

The existence of the massively bloated, all-encompassing, all-devouring Welfare-Warfare State is simply not contingent upon the presence or absence of immigrants. It never has been and it never will be. Immigrants did not cause our descent into Hell and they are not responsible for our continued residence there.



America's population today stands at almost one-third of a billion people. At the federal level, those people are "represented" by a mere 536 elected officials (435 House Reps, 100 Senators and 1 President). Add to this the fact that each voter gets to cast 7 federal ballots (at most) for 4 offices (1 House seat, 2 Senate seats, and 1 President) during any 6 year period - 2 or 3 for (just one) House seat, 2 for Senate, and 1 or 2 for President - and the picture becomes even more grotesquely absurd. Those ratios and frequencies are so fantastically out-of-whack that the addition or subtraction of a dozen or two millions of immigrants isn't going to make any significant difference, one way or the other - regardless of what policies those immigrants embrace or reject.



The country is already screwed - utterly regardless of what Hispanics think about "capitalism" (however defined). Ultimately, politics is nothing more than a dispute between various gangs of sociopaths & moochers arguing over how to divvy up the booty they've plundered from others. In America, this fact has manifested itself in the form of a two-party (Republican vs. Democrat), two-"wing" ("liberal" vs. "conservative") duopoly. The inferno of debt, war, dependecy & control stoked by the duopoly will rage on unabated, no matter which side of the duopoly Hispanic immigrants throw in with. And it will continue to do so even if every single Hispanic immigrant vanished in a puff of smoke right this moment.

The only viable solution - as fantastically difficult, unlikely and fraught with peril as it may be - is to just abandon the building and let it burn to smoldering ashes - right down to the ground. Nullification. Repudiation. Rejection. Decentralization. Localization. Dissolution. Secession. These are key. And if these things turn out to be impossible (or merely too difficult to achieve), then we are well & truly doomed, and that is all. All this storm and stress over immigration amounts to no more than a rearrangement of the proverbial deck chairs.

Secession... you'll get no argument from me there, but even that will be made more difficult (right now it would nearly be impossible) if the number of people who want limitless government power keeps growing.

If the current trend continues I imagine in 10 years people you and I will be arrested for this conversation.

JustinTime
06-22-2013, 09:58 AM
Please follow the story of your ancestors all the way to the ending.

Where are the Cherokee now?

Everywhere apparently. Ive known so many friggin' Cherokee in my life I wonder if people get Cherokee ancestry confused with their granny driving a Jeep Cherokee.

MelissaWV
06-22-2013, 10:24 AM
It's a numbers issue as I outlined before. No one would give a rat's ass if there were 10,000 cherokees here illegally or 250,000 green men for that matter. Americans are a very generous and tolerant people, but they don't like being taken advantage of. We have millions of undocumented here, and they have to gall to march on the street and demand X, Y, Z like there is a menu or civic catalog attached to every utility pole. Can you imagine if millions of Americans went into another country and then DEMANDED citizenship from the local government? What do you think the outcome would be? That's really the hypothetical litmus test which illustrates the absurdity at work here. This type of emotionally based tripe would not fly in other locales, with the resistance being projected as racially motivated.

First bolded part: You have plenty of native-born, 100% citizens demanding their benefits as well, many of which have not paid into it what they have taken out of it. This brings us full circle, though, to the point of trying to get rid of entitlements. The reason that will NOT happen is NOT because of illegals. It is because of those same voting citizens who want their benefits. With that as a given, I would be more than happy to see benefits only for citizens. We already have plenty of ways to demonstrate citizenship without a national ID card. You either have a birth record that proves you are born a citizen, or naturalization paperwork that shows you've become one. If we're going to have the tiresome "benefits" like EBT, public schools, and so on, then limit them to citizens. That removes some of the incentive for some of the folks who come here illegally, and simultaneously makes it way more attractive to become citizens the legal way.

Second bolded part: the result would be blowback, which is highly unfortunate. Consider the number of Americans overseas right now in a military and governmental capacity. They are not demanding citizenship, but they're there, and they are making friends and enemies in large numbers. When the latter grow louder than the former, there are problems. Huge problems.

General observation: The solution, again, seems twofold to me. I don't think it's feasible to round everyone up. I think the drone and one-person-every-thousand-feet solutions are expensive and ridiculous, and honestly I don't think they'll be any better at stopping illegal entry into the country than the TSA is at stopping things getting past them at checkpoints. The idea of national ID, e-verify, and stopping people under suspicion of being illegal (cops' discretion... and the police are so well-trained, right? What could go wrong?) ... these ideas should revolt everyone on a Ron Paul forum. So no more benefits for people who cannot prove citizenship, but let local charities or groups help out if they want.

If you have 100 illegals that move to Sampletown, TX, that were not there before, and there are 20 citizens of Sampletown who take them under their wing, even providing a community school, church activities, assistance with obtaining low-level jobs, and so on, then you are looking at an economic plus rather than a drain. Sampletown's good Samaritans spend money helping the new arrivals, who in their turn are not draining out benefits, and are trying to better the community and themselves.

No that will not work perfectly, but it seems like it'd solve a lot of the issues people have. I don't think that this notion that millions upon millions of illegals will swarm the US with no economic incentive to do so will pan out.

JustinTime
06-22-2013, 01:27 PM
First bolded part: You have plenty of native-born, 100% citizens demanding their benefits as well, many of which have not paid into it what they have taken out of it.

So lets bring in millions more?

AuH20
06-22-2013, 01:44 PM
So lets bring in millions more?

That's the elephant in the room. The country is technically broke, thanks to extravagant, mishandled entitlement programs and the solution is to bring in more people who will depend on them as they get older. Studies have shown that current domestic enrollees extract multiples of what they have contributed to SS and Medicare over a lifetime, in that it's a losing formula for any type of program solvency. It's highly ironic that we have 'Mr. Accountant and Entitlement Program Watchdog' Paul Ryan signing off on this, which exhibits what a fraud the man is.

heavenlyboy34
06-22-2013, 01:50 PM
+rep for Mr Banana

MelissaWV
06-22-2013, 02:11 PM
So lets bring in millions more?

Did you bother to read the rest of the post, where I talk about how non-citizens should absolutely not get benefits of any sort?

JustinTime
06-22-2013, 05:00 PM
Did you bother to read the rest of the post, where I talk about how non-citizens should absolutely not get benefits of any sort?

I skimmed over it, with all due respect I didn't pay it much mind because you're just whistling Dixie. A pathway to citizenship is offered in the current bill.

And if by some wild chance a bill passed that barred illegals from ever receiving citizenship, you know what the next move will be. Getting these people full citizenship will be presented by politicians and media as a new civil rights movement.

Your idea is fine but its not in the current bill and even it was, its got snowballs chance to last very long.

MelissaWV
06-22-2013, 05:08 PM
I skimmed over it, with all due respect I didn't pay it much mind because you're just whistling Dixie. A pathway to citizenship is offered in the current bill.

And if by some wild chance a bill passed that barred illegals from ever receiving citizenship, you know what the next move will be. Getting these people full citizenship will be presented by politicians and media as a new civil rights movement.

Your idea is fine but its not in the current bill and even it was, its got snowballs chance to last very long.

So implying that I want to bring millions in to use up benefits... is okay because my idea (which was ignored in the response) will never happen. Got it.

JustinTime
06-22-2013, 05:08 PM
That's the elephant in the room. The country is technically broke, thanks to extravagant, mishandled entitlement programs and the solution is to bring in more people who will depend on them as they get older. Studies have shown that current domestic enrollees extract multiples of what they have contributed to SS and Medicare over a lifetime, in that it's a losing formula for any type of program solvency. It's highly ironic that we have 'Mr. Accountant and Entitlement Program Watchdog' Paul Ryan signing off on this, which exhibits what a fraud the man is.

I'm guessing Ryan is operating under "rule number one", cover your own ass.

He probably considers amnesty inevitable and is trying to secure for himself some of the new voting bloc of dependent and uneducated people it will create. Even though he knows this is the "demographic event horizon" at least he can save his seat in Congress.

JustinTime
06-22-2013, 05:12 PM
So implying that I want to bring millions in to use up benefits... is okay because my idea (which was ignored in the response) will never happen. Got it.

I'm not implying that, I *know* with 100% certainty you do not want that.

There are many good-hearted and intelligent people who support amnesty who don't want such a thing, trouble is, they are going to get it anyway.

HigherVision
06-22-2013, 05:30 PM
You're taking about a small cadre of white "conservative" (just ask 'em, they'll tell ya) cronies who use the force of government to fill their pockets.

Im talking about millions of middle-class and working people, small business owners and the like.

I know these people are coming around. I listen to a local talk-radio show almost every day, when I started tuning in around 2006 the show was neocon central, full of people talking about "duh turrists" and
"Gawd" and "suppote duh troops".

Now they oppose military interference in Syria and want to abolish the Fed. Id say at least half support Ed Snowden. They're not perfect but they are coming around.



Secession... you'll get no argument from me there, but even that will be made more difficult (right now it would nearly be impossible) if the number of people who want limitless government power keeps growing.

If the current trend continues I imagine in 10 years people you and I will be arrested for this conversation.

You're spot on!

Cutlerzzz
06-22-2013, 06:41 PM
The Federal Reserve, Income Tax, Sevententh Amendment, Civil War, New Deal, Great Society, War on Drugs, and Military Industrial Complex were all given to us by white natives.

BAllen
06-22-2013, 07:20 PM
The Federal Reserve, Income Tax, Sevententh Amendment, Civil War, New Deal, Great Society, War on Drugs, and Military Industrial Complex were all given to us by white natives.

How many of those 'whites' were zionist jews?
They're good at being chameleons.

Lucille
06-23-2013, 10:52 AM
We are the 10%! Resistance to the unshakeable remnant is futile.

Minority Rules: Scientists Discover Tipping Point for the Spread of Ideas
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110725190044.htm


Scientists at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have found that when just 10 percent of the population holds an unshakable belief, their belief will always be adopted by the majority of the society.

JustinTime
06-23-2013, 11:21 AM
The Federal Reserve, Income Tax, Sevententh Amendment, Civil War, New Deal, Great Society, War on Drugs, and Military Industrial Complex were all given to us by white natives.

Again with the fallacy: x people did stupid stuff lets bring in group y who think exactly the same way.

Im running out of ways to phrase this.

AuH20
06-23-2013, 12:29 PM
Again with the fallacy: x people did stupid stuff lets bring in group y who think exactly the same way.

Im running out of ways to phrase this.

It's more of a urban vs rural divide. Urban whites, predominantly on the East Coast, are the ones who started us down this steep path. Since that point the virus has infected other areas of the country.

MelissaWV
06-23-2013, 02:28 PM
Again with the fallacy: x people did stupid stuff lets bring in group y who think exactly the same way.

Im running out of ways to phrase this.

I think you're reading a lot of us wrong.

There's a rush to blame everything on the immigrants, when in fact that's neither the problem nor the origin. That is what posts like the one you quoted are about. Trying to solve our country's problems by "getting tough on immigration" (and come to think of it... where are you guys' solutions?) is like trying to cure malaria by treating the itch caused by mosquito bites. While it's all related in some loose way, it's just not going to work. You could deport every illegal in this country magically and instantly, and still have huge problems. There'd be a new scapegoat, surely, but the problems would remain.

Origanalist
06-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Buchanan: Hispanic influx from immigration bill could break US into ‘two countries’

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/23/buchanan-hispanic-influx-from-immigration-bill-could-break-us-into-two-countries/#ixzz2X4ku32Fj

I say that's a good start.

AuH20
06-23-2013, 04:24 PM
Buchanan: Hispanic influx from immigration bill could break US into ‘two countries’

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/23/buchanan-hispanic-influx-from-immigration-bill-could-break-us-into-two-countries/#ixzz2X4ku32Fj

I say that's a good start.

He's the foremost authority on this entire controversy. He's been writing books about this catastrophe for 20 years and now the day of reckoning has come.

Smaulgld
06-23-2013, 04:33 PM
there was a recent survey that showed that a majority of people under 30 had a favorable view of socialism

Southron
06-23-2013, 05:09 PM
The Federal Reserve, Income Tax, Sevententh Amendment, Civil War, New Deal, Great Society, War on Drugs, and Military Industrial Complex were all given to us by white natives.

With the exception of the War of Northern Aggression, I doubt those other things would have taken place without immigration. Most of those ideas were the product of 19th and 20th Century Europeans, who happened to immigrate here and bring their ideas and philosophies with them.

JustinTime
06-23-2013, 05:11 PM
there was a recent survey that showed that a majority of people under 30 had a favorable view of socialism

And people under 30 are much more heavily Hispanic due to the higher birthrates they've had since the 60's.


I think you're reading a lot of us wrong.

There's a rush to blame everything on the immigrants, when in fact that's neither the problem nor the origin. That is what posts like the one you quoted are about. Trying to solve our country's problems by "getting tough on immigration"

It wont solve a thing, it will just keep options open.

Please please please understand, if you add the millions of illegals to the native-born Americans who prefer big government those of us who love freedom will be outnumbered so heavily we may very well be finished.

Now some people here will say "We're already finished" and to them I say "Why are you here?"


You could deport every illegal in this country magically and instantly, and still have huge problems.

Sure, but there is a glimmer of hope they may be dealt with. When the enemies of freedom, the dependent and uneducated are a super-majority, theres no hope for a peaceful solution.

AuH20
06-23-2013, 05:12 PM
there was a recent survey that showed that a majority of people under 30 had a favorable view of socialism

Too bad they are not aware that socialism, by and large is a calculated ploy by the ultra-rich. Dependency is the name of the game.

JustinTime
06-23-2013, 05:28 PM
Too bad they are not aware that socialism, by and large is a calculated ploy by the ultra-rich. Dependency is the name of the game.

That's what Ive been trying to tell these people, rich white elites may be behind socialism and all other schemes to rob our freedom, but its the dependent and uneducated masses of white, black and brown that make their schemes possible. 11 million more such people is a backbreaker.

Cutlerzzz
06-23-2013, 05:40 PM
With the exception of the War of Northern Aggression, I doubt those other things would have taken place without immigration. Most of those ideas were the product of 19th and 20th Century Europeans, who happened to immigrate here and bring their ideas and philosophies with them.

Because our Founder were not immigrants from Europe who passed the Sedition Act, destroyed the Articles of Confederations, brutally suppressed the Whiskey Rebellion, massacred the Natives, and gave us a Central Bank. The government has been a joke since the start.

BAllen
06-23-2013, 07:16 PM
Buchanan: Hispanic influx from immigration bill could break US into ‘two countries’

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/23/buchanan-hispanic-influx-from-immigration-bill-could-break-us-into-two-countries/#ixzz2X4ku32Fj

I say that's a good start.

As usual, P.B. is right. You can't export jobs, and import cheap labor, expecting our country to get better. UNLESS, we deregulate other industries like dairy, transportation, farming, etc., which ain't happening. No, we're still stuck with Marxist political correctness, which is designed to destroy OUR culture.

MelissaWV
06-23-2013, 07:24 PM
21 pages in, and people are still quoting things that say "Hispanic" when they mean "Mexican."

If the country had a Canadian immigrant problem, I wonder if all of the alarm bells would have titles blaming "whites"?

BAllen
06-23-2013, 07:26 PM
21 pages in, and people are still quoting things that say "Hispanic" when they mean "Mexican."

If the country had a Canadian immigrant problem, I wonder if all of the alarm bells would have titles blaming "whites"?

Jesus! Stop whining.

MelissaWV
06-23-2013, 07:33 PM
Jesus! Stop whining.

Stop asking for polls to be accurate? Getting lumped in with the crowds when the well-meaning defenders of liberty come with their pitchforks is not a comforting thought.

Danan
06-23-2013, 07:47 PM
You should also keep in mind that an active immigration policy makes the threat of secession practically useless. In an environment where the US government has the ability to control the movement of people in and out of it's jurisdiction, no smaller political unit can realistically leave the union - even if it were legally and practically possible.

If the US can threaten them with being hermetically sealed, they won't do it. If, however, the US government does not have this authority, the threat of secession becomes way more serious. And thus the expansion of the central government is easier to be kept in check.

Edit: Also, all tools designed to keep people out can also be used to keep people in.