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randomname
06-16-2013, 05:36 PM
The espionage scandal that keeps on giving has released its latest installment, once more courtesy of the Guardian, which on the eve of tomorrow's starting G-8 meeting reveals that foreign politicians and officials who took part in two G-20 summit meetings in London in 2009 had their computers monitored, their phone calls intercepted, and fake internet cafes were set up on the instructions of the British Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), the sister organization to the US NSA. Naturally, it wasn't just the GCHQ - according to the Guardian, during the 2009 G-20 meeting there was an NSA attempt to eavesdrop on then-Russian leader, Dmitry Medvedev, as his phone calls passed through satellite links to Moscow. And while broad espionage allegations can be deflected by pretending by the rhetoric-endowed and teleprompter-aided that only terrorist threats were targeted, it will be very difficult to explain why the national information super spooks used every trick of the trade to spy on the so-called leaders of the developed world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits?CMP=twt_fd

fearthereaperx
06-16-2013, 05:41 PM
where's the scandal, isn't that their job?

tangent4ronpaul
06-16-2013, 06:12 PM
This broke 4 hours ago and there is crickets in the US media.

Is anyone besides the Guardian reporting on this?

-t

Anti Federalist
06-16-2013, 06:16 PM
This broke 4 hours ago and there is crickets in the US media.

Is anyone besides the Guardian reporting on this?

-t

Not that I can see.

Top story that I see is how Northern Ireland has stepped up its game by getting rid of Peter King's IRA terrorists, and hosting the big guns, the G-8.

Oh, and Northern Ireland is lock down for it.

Joy.

bolil
06-16-2013, 06:38 PM
It is on puff ho right now.

green73
06-16-2013, 06:46 PM
http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/6/16/243282/default/v1/untitled-1-1-329x437.jpg
SNOWSTORM (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits)
http://www.drudgereport.com/i/logo9.gif (http://www.drudgereport.com/)

tangent4ronpaul
06-16-2013, 07:10 PM
CNN picked it up:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/16/world/europe/nsa-leaks/?hpt=hp_t1

-t

better-dead-than-fed
06-16-2013, 07:19 PM
There have often been rumours of this kind of espionage at international conferences, but it is highly unusual for hard evidence to confirm it and spell out the detail. The evidence is contained in documents – classified as top secret – which were uncovered by the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden and seen by the Guardian.

Rumors published by Guardian employees are not "hard evidence".

tangent4ronpaul
06-16-2013, 07:32 PM
Rumors published by Guardian employees are not "hard evidence".

See the Guardian article linked in the OP, they published extracts. There are pics of parts of the docs too.

Wonder how this will effect the G8 this week...

-t

better-dead-than-fed
06-16-2013, 07:50 PM
See the Guardian article linked in the OP, they published extracts. There are pics of parts of the docs too.

I see those, but for everything in the article not shown by those 2 slides, we're asked to just trust the journalists' representations. "Power that operates unchecked behind closed doors is inevitably abused," writes the ACLU today, but that goes for journalists operating behind closed doors too.

sailingaway
06-16-2013, 09:47 PM
As Britain readies to host the G8 summit, the documents uncovered by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden have revealed that back in 2009 US spies intercepted top-secret communications of then Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, during his visit to London.

The shocking news was broken by The Guardian which has seen the documents. It also revealed that a UK intelligence agency, GCHQ, monitored foreign politicians and intercepted their emails during the 2009 G20 summit held in the British capital, which among others was attended by Medvedev. Some delegates were tricked into using internet cafes which had been set up by UK intelligence agencies to read their email traffic.

This comes as the 39th G8 summit is scheduled to start on Monday in the small Northern Irish resort town of Lough Erne with all the nations who were present at the 2009 London meeting attending.

According to the leaked documents viewed by the British paper, the details of the intercept of Medvedev’s communications were set out in a briefing prepared by the US National Security Agency (NSA), and shared with high-ranking officials from Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The document entitled "Russian Leadership Communications in support of President Dmitry Medvedev at the G20 summit in London – Intercept at Menwith Hill station" was drafted in August 2009, four months after the Russian president attended the London G20 summit.

The NSA paper says: "This is an analysis of signal activity in support of President Dmitry Medvedev's visit to London. The report details a change in the way Russian leadership signals have been normally transmitted. The signal activity was found to be emanating from the Russian embassy in London and the communications are believed to be in support of the Russian president."

more: http://rt.com/news/nsa-spied-medvedev-g20-789/

I kind of guessed both sides did it at that level, but only on 'opposing policymakers' not on their own entire nation.

Anti Federalist
06-16-2013, 11:22 PM
more: http://rt.com/news/nsa-spied-medvedev-g20-789/

I kind of guessed both sides did it at that level, but only on 'opposing policymakers' not on their own entire nation.

We all suspects.

mad cow
06-16-2013, 11:46 PM
A similar story about spying,phone tapping and computer monitoring at Bilderberg would make for some interesting headlines.


We are all mundanes now.

Warlord
06-17-2013, 02:06 AM
Rumors published by Guardian employees are not "hard evidence".

Edward has given them documents and official reports that were passed to ministers. Obviously they're not publishing them all but have published some details from them

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 02:24 AM
Edward has given them documents and official reports that were passed to ministers. Obviously they're not publishing them all but have published some details from them

I'm not ready for the Guardian to do my thinking for me. I have to go with what I have observed personally: a handful of ambiguous slides, and some assertions made by guardian writers, which assertions might or might not be true.

Warlord
06-17-2013, 02:26 AM
I'm not ready for the Guardian to do my thinking for me. I have to go with what I have observed personally: a handful of ambiguous slides, and some statements made by guardian writers, which statements might or might not be true.

They're quoting directly from the documents. What is it you have an issue with specifically?

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 02:44 AM
They're quoting directly from the documents.

Here is the sum total of the quoted material:



http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/16/1371408003314/GCHQ-ragout-1-002.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/16/1371408108043/GCHQ-Ragout-2-002.jpg


ground-breaking intelligence capabilities
The GCHQ intent is to ensure that intelligence relevant to HMG's desired outcomes for its presidency of the G20 reaches customers at the right time and in a form which allows them to make full use of it.
ministers
used a lot in recent UK conference, eg G20
active collection against an email account that acquires mail messages without removing them from the remote server
reading people's email before/as they do
were able to extract key logging info, providing creds for delegates, meaning we have sustained intelligence options against them even after conference has finished
investigated phone lines used by High Commission in London
retrieved documents including briefings for South African delegates to G20 and G8 meetings
New converged events capabilities against BlackBerry provided advance copies of G20 briefings to ministers … Diplomatic targets from all nations have an MO of using smartphones. Exploited this use at the G20 meetings last year.
deliver a live dynamically updating graph of telephony call records for target G20 delegates … and continuing until G20 (2 April).
possible targets
to establish Turkey's position on agreements from the April London summit
willingness (or not) to co-operate with the rest of the G20 nations
For the first time, analysts had a live picture of who was talking to who that updated constantly and automatically,
In a live situation such as this, intelligence received may be used to influence events on the ground taking place just minutes or hours later. This means that it is not sufficient to mine call records afterwards – real-time tip-off is essential.
Thank you very much for getting the application ready for the G20 finance meeting last weekend … The call records activity pilot was very successful and was well received as a current indicator of delegate activity … It proved useful to note which nation delegation was active during the moments before, during and after the summit. All in all, a very successful weekend with the delegation telephony plot.



That is assuming they quoted everything correctly, which I don't assume.


What is it you have an issue with specifically?

I have an issue with any assertion not proved by the "hard evidence (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?418339-NSA-UK-Spied-On-Politicians-Intercepted-Emails-Eavesdropped-On-Russian-Presidents-Calls&p=5080120#post5080120)".

Warlord
06-17-2013, 02:49 AM
Here's quotes from the documents (hard evidence)

-

A briefing paper dated 20 January 2009 records advice given by GCHQ officials to their director, Sir Iain Lobban, who was planning to meet the then foreign secretary, David Miliband. The officials summarised Brown's aims for the meeting of G20 heads of state due to begin on 2 April, which was attempting to deal with the economic aftermath of the 2008 banking crisis. The briefing paper added: "The GCHQ intent is to ensure that intelligence relevant to HMG's desired outcomes for its presidency of the G20 reaches customers at the right time and in a form which allows them to make full use of it." Two documents explicitly refer to the intelligence product being passed to "ministers".

One document refers to a tactic which was "used a lot in recent UK conference, eg G20". The tactic, which is identified by an internal codeword which the Guardian is not revealing, is defined in an internal glossary as "active collection against an email account that acquires mail messages without removing them from the remote server". A PowerPoint slide explains that this means "reading people's email before/as they do".

The same document also refers to GCHQ, MI6 and others setting up internet cafes which "were able to extract key logging info, providing creds for delegates, meaning we have sustained intelligence options against them even after conference has finished". This appears to be a reference to acquiring delegates' online login details.

Another document summarises a sustained campaign to penetrate South African computers, recording that they gained access to the network of their foreign ministry, "investigated phone lines used by High Commission in London" and "retrieved documents including briefings for South African delegates to G20 and G8 meetings".

A detailed report records the efforts of the NSA's intercept specialists at Menwith Hill in North Yorkshire to target and decode encrypted phone calls from London to Moscow which were made by the Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, and other Russian delegates.

Other documents record apparently successful efforts to penetrate the security of BlackBerry smartphones: "New converged events capabilities against BlackBerry provided advance copies of G20 briefings to ministers … Diplomatic targets from all nations have an MO of using smartphones. Exploited this use at the G20 meetings last year."


Another document records that when G20 finance ministers met in London in September, GCHQ again took advantage of the occasion to spy on delegates, identifying the Turkish finance minister, Mehmet Simsek, as a target and listing 15 other junior ministers and officials in his delegation as "possible targets". As with the other G20 spying, there is no suggestion that Simsek and his party were involved in any kind of criminal offence. The document explicitly records a political objective – "to establish Turkey's position on agreements from the April London summit" and their "willingness (or not) to co-operate with the rest of the G20 nations".

The September meeting of finance ministers was also the subject of a new technique to provide a live report on any telephone call made by delegates and to display all of the activity on a graphic which was projected on to the 15-sq-metre video wall of GCHQ's operations centre as well as on to the screens of 45 specialist analysts who were monitoring the delegates.

"For the first time, analysts had a live picture of who was talking to who that updated constantly and automatically," according to an internal review.

A second review implies that the analysts' findings were being relayed rapidly to British representatives in the G20 meetings, a negotiating advantage of which their allies and opposite numbers may not have been aware: "In a live situation such as this, intelligence received may be used to influence events on the ground taking place just minutes or hours later. This means that it is not sufficient to mine call records afterwards – real-time tip-off is essential."

In the week after the September meeting, a group of analysts sent an internal message to the GCHQ section which had organised this live monitoring: "Thank you very much for getting the application ready for the G20 finance meeting last weekend … The call records activity pilot was very successful and was well received as a current indicator of delegate activity …

"It proved useful to note which nation delegation was active during the moments before, during and after the summit. All in all, a very successful weekend with the delegation telephony plot."

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 02:59 AM
Here's quotes from the documents (hard evidence)

-

A briefing paper dated 20 January 2009 records advice given by GCHQ officials to their director, Sir Iain Lobban, who was planning to meet the then foreign secretary, David Miliband. The officials summarised Brown's aims for the meeting of G20 heads of state due to begin on 2 April, which was attempting to deal with the economic aftermath of the 2008 banking crisis. The briefing paper added: "The GCHQ intent is to ensure that intelligence relevant to HMG's desired outcomes for its presidency of the G20 reaches customers at the right time and in a form which allows them to make full use of it." Two documents explicitly refer to the intelligence product being passed to "ministers".

One document refers to a tactic which was "used a lot in recent UK conference, eg G20". The tactic, which is identified by an internal codeword which the Guardian is not revealing, is defined in an internal glossary as "active collection against an email account that acquires mail messages without removing them from the remote server". A PowerPoint slide explains that this means "reading people's email before/as they do".

The same document also refers to GCHQ, MI6 and others setting up internet cafes which "were able to extract key logging info, providing creds for delegates, meaning we have sustained intelligence options against them even after conference has finished". This appears to be a reference to acquiring delegates' online login details.

Another document summarises a sustained campaign to penetrate South African computers, recording that they gained access to the network of their foreign ministry, "investigated phone lines used by High Commission in London" and "retrieved documents including briefings for South African delegates to G20 and G8 meetings".

Most of the text you're quoting is not from government documents; most is from Guardian employees. It is evidence about Guardian employees, not evidence about the government. If you try to sue the government and the court asks for evidence, and all you have is a Guardian article, your evidence is not going to be admitted.

Yesterday this appeared on a lot of people's screens:


http://i.imgur.com/UWqbdZ8.jpg

But it turns out it is improbable that the NSA admitted any such thing.

Warlord
06-17-2013, 03:00 AM
"used a lot in recent UK conference, eg G20"

"Exploited this use at the G20 meetings last year."

-

This is direct admission from the documents that GCHQ were spying on G20 delegates and that is the essence of the story. What more do you want?

-
"For the first time, analysts had a live picture of who was talking to who that updated constantly and automatically," according to an internal review.

"In a live situation such as this, intelligence received may be used to influence events on the ground taking place just minutes or hours later. This means that it is not sufficient to mine call records afterwards – real-time tip-off is essential."

"It proved useful to note which nation delegation was active during the moments before, during and after the summit. All in all, a very successful weekend with the delegation telephony plot."
-

Direct admission they were real-time snooping on G20 delegates.

Warlord
06-17-2013, 03:03 AM
Most of the text you're quoting is not from government documents; most is from Guardian employees. It is evidence about Guardian employees, not evidence about the government. If you try to sue the government and the court asks for evidence, and all you have is a Guardian article, your evidence is not going to be admitted.

Yesterday this appeared on a lot of people's screens:


http://i.imgur.com/UWqbdZ8.jpg

But it turns out it is improbable that the NSA admitted any such thing.

I have no idea about this story. The Guardian is presenting you with direct quotes from documents given to them by Snowden. Their story is that GCHQ and NSA at Menwith Hill were spying in real time on delegates at the G20 in London in 2009.

Stick to the Guardian as your source for these stories as Edward is the leaker. Anything else is likely misinformation

FULL INFO HERE:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/

Do not believe anything n the US media. They know nothing and won't tell you the truth anyway/.

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 03:08 AM
Who authored the "internal review"? What did he personally observe; what did he personally see or hear with his own eyes and ears? Where are the original documents, for compliance with Federal Rule of Evidence 1002. That is what we need to know, if any of this is going to be challenged in a U.S. court. That is some of the "hard evidence" that the Guardian is withholding; and lawyer Greenwald is perfectly aware of that.

Warlord
06-17-2013, 03:12 AM
Who authored the "internal review"? What did he personally observe; what did he personally see or hear with his own eyes and ears? Where are the original documents, for compliance with Federal Rule of Evidence 1002. That is what we did to know, if any of this is going to be challenged in a U.S. court. That is some of the "hard evidence" that the Guardian is withholding; and lawyer Greenwald is perfectly aware of that.

They're not going to publish names of employees because that would get them into trouble.

They did publish these names:

-
A briefing paper dated 20 January 2009 records advice given by GCHQ officials to their director, Sir Iain Lobban, who was planning to meet the then foreign secretary, David Miliband.

The officials summarised Brown's aims for the meeting of G20 heads of state due to begin on 2 April, which was attempting to deal with the economic aftermath of the 2008 banking crisis. The briefing paper added: "The GCHQ intent is to ensure that intelligence relevant to HMG's desired outcomes for its presidency of the G20 reaches customers at the right time and in a form which allows them to make full use of it." Two documents explicitly refer to the intelligence product being passed to "ministers".

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 03:38 AM
that would get them into trouble.

How so?

In any case, Greenwald seems be breaking his promise (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fnUvX98Fitn8z5bftjNn3SQtjKjgsjBh361RDv2I-HE/pub) to release all documents not "gratuitously harmful".

Warlord
06-17-2013, 03:40 AM
How so?

In any case, Greenwald seems be breaking his promise (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fnUvX98Fitn8z5bftjNn3SQtjKjgsjBh361RDv2I-HE/pub) to release all documents not "gratuitously harmful".

Greenwald is not the editor of The Guardian. The editor(s) will determine what they think they can publish and what is in the public interest as opposed to the US media who would spike the whole lot and who make determinations that are in the interests of the administration. I know it sucks but this isn't a data dump. The Guardian is a filter for these new revelations and I'm for one am glad they are taking their responsibilities seriously.

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 05:21 AM
Greenwald is not the editor of The Guardian. The editor(s) will determine what they think they can publish and what is in the public interest as opposed to the US media who would spike the whole lot and who make determinations that are in the interests of the administration. I know it sucks but this isn't a data dump. The Guardian is a filter for these new revelations and I'm for one am glad they are taking their responsibilities seriously.


When his blog was picked up by Salon, said Kerry Lauerman, the magazine’s departing editor in chief, Salon agreed that Mr. Greenwald would have direct access to their computer system so that he could publish his blog posts himself without an editor seeing them first if he so chose.

“It basically is unheard of, but I never lost a moment of sleep over it,” Mr. Lauerman said. “He is incredibly scrupulous in the way a lawyer would be — really, really careful.”

The same independence has carried over at The Guardian, though Mr. Greenwald said that for an article like the one about the N.S.A. letter he agreed that the paper should be able to edit it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/business/media/anti-surveillance-activist-is-at-center-of-new-leak.html?pagewanted=all

Anyway, I never would have started on this, in this thread, but in this thread's original story, the Guardian printed "There have often been rumours of this kind of espionage at international conferences, but it is highly unusual for hard evidence to confirm it and spell out the detail. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?418339-NSA-UK-Spied-On-Politicians-Intercepted-Emails-Eavesdropped-On-Russian-Presidents-Calls&p=5080120&viewfull=1#post5080120)"

I don't see their point about "rumors" v. "hard evidence", since they're keeping the "hard evidence" for themselves.

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 05:42 AM
Stick to the Guardian as your source for these stories as Edward is the leaker. Anything else is likely misinformation

And this:


I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance

and this:


Snowden asked for a guarantee that the Washington Post would publish — within 72 hours — the full text of a PowerPoint presentation describing PRISM.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/code-name-verax-snowden-in-exchanges-with-post-reporter-made-clear-he-knew-risks/2013/06/09/c9a25b54-d14c-11e2-9f1a-1a7cdee20287_story.html

Warlord
06-17-2013, 06:02 AM
Yes but what Snowden thinks is in the public interest and what The Guardian thinks are two different things. They will act as a filter and more of an honest one than any US media outlet. If Snowden didn't want that he would have published it via wikileaks or something. The Guardian has some responsibility not to name names and codenames otherwise they can be prosecuted in the UK.

The "guarantee" demand is a claim made by WaPo guy. It has no credibility.

better-dead-than-fed
06-17-2013, 06:59 AM
I will continue to fight for truth and the public's right to know.