If the NSA story doesn't wake people up, what will?

[jllundqu]

I'm a bit of a cynic and skeptic. I have z-e-r-o hope that the NSA revelations will change a single thing in government or in the minds of the people.

Media from all across the spectrum is calling this the most important story in a generation. What else can be done? If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.

[TheTexan]

What else can we do? Secede. Just a few years ago secession was never spoken of, but now the idea is being played with in areas across the country. The idea is advancing quickly, and soon I expect, in the next couple of years, it might become a very real possibility

[Dr.3D]

I'm a bit of a cynic and skeptic. I have z-e-r-o hope that the NSA revelations will change a single thing in government or in the minds of the people.

Media from all across the spectrum is calling this the most important story in a generation. What else can be done? If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.

The average Joe doesn't believe he has the ability to change any of this, thus he feels it's useless to try. When I see a ballot box, taken out of a room where the people just voted and then counted in a separate room, I'm starting to see their point.

[Christian Liberty]

I feel hopeless, but I still try to wake people up. Just remember that if there's ever a real civil war, many will sit on the sidelines.

[Tod]

I expect most people, if they recognize what is happening at all, shrug their shoulders and figure that as long as their daily routine doesn't change in a majorly inconvenient way, all is good.

[talkingpointes]

War on their doorstep. That's it. Science has told us personality is engrained by society, and by genes. Most personalities evolve but older ones are more static.

Ron Paul caputured the kids and for this exact reason. Why spend millions of dollars to get old people to vote when in 10 years they will want and need the very things they railed against for most of their lives.

The only reason there is so many of us now is you can't hide the information anymore in libraries and gateholders. We can access information 24/7 and judge for ourselves. Most people need to reinforce ideas for them too stick. IE "that isn't what the news said", "that isn't what mitt said" etc. on and on.

Libertarian minded people might only be like 10-15% of the actual population. If want too rule in a democracy you need a majority.

We need to lie or become tyrants. Either of which I don't like, want, or want to be a part of.

[Matthew5]

If the liberty movement isn't out rioting in the streets, why should they?

[TheTexan]

We need to lie or become tyrants. Either of which I don't like, want, or want to be a part of.

A third, but less likely, option, is to geographically agglomerate ourselves FSP-style, and secede.

In the hypothetical situation that we were to fight and win a war for our freedom, I do agree that "forcing freedom" on people would be tyrannical. But we can avoid that by giving the option that was denied to us: individual secession and self determination. If fragment(s) of this country wants the ridiculous taxes, spying, and oppression, as many likely would, they should be free to split off and resume their desired tyranny as they see fit, as long as they leave us out of it.

I believe thats a fair compromise.

[RickyJ]

If the NSA story doesn't wake people up, what will?

This could be why this was leaked, to see if the public would give a damn. Don't assume that this wasn't a planned leak, nothing really major has been exposed other than what most have expected all along. They could be trying to legitimize in people's minds their unconstitutional actions. If they can do that, they can progress with their plans basically unchecked.

[69360]

I'm a bit of a cynic and skeptic. I have z-e-r-o hope that the NSA revelations will change a single thing in government or in the minds of the people.

Media from all across the spectrum is calling this the most important story in a generation. What else can be done? If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.

Only loss of things they love will cause them to care. Take away their new cars, facespace, cell phones, starbucks, mcmansions etc and then we'll talk.

[TheTexan]

This could be why this was leaked, to see if the public would give a damn. Don't assume that this wasn't a planned leak, nothing really major has been exposed other than what most have expected all along. They could be trying to legitimize in people's minds their unconstitutional actions. If they can do that, they can progress with their plans basically unchecked.

It could also signal the death of the constitution, and lead to secession / civil war. States that otherwise may not care much about this issue, may end up using it as justification to separate.

[tod evans]

If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.

I've "been in the hills" for decades...:D

Fuck a bunch of city livin'...

[tod evans]

Oh-yeah....................

If it's time to wall off the cities in order to flood them I'll carry hod or lay rock.......Anything to help!

[ZENemy]

In a material world, people will not "awake" until their material is taken.

[Athan]

This is just starting. This is the time to make noise to force the end of the patriot act, PRISM, obama's administration (it is worse than Nixon by leaps and bounds), and frankly you can tell TPTB are freaking out this time.

[TheTexan]

This is just starting. This is the time to make noise to force the end of the patriot act, PRISM, obama's administration (it is worse than Nixon by leaps and bounds), and frankly you can tell TPTB are freaking out this time.

I agree. I think we should just repeat "4th amendment" over and over until they finally say "fuck ur 4th amendment", giving us the opening to say "well fuck you too buddy, I quit"

[Sam I am]

I'd hardly call this revelations. Unwarranted wire-tapping has been common knowledge since before 2005.

It kinda reminds me of the second wave of Torture scandals from back in 2008.

[TER]

hunger and boredom.

as long as the average person has cable TV with 300 channels of mind-numbing programming as well as food in the fridge, there will be no rapid mass awakening.

In a phrase, bread and circuses, to quell the masses, just like the other great empires did before they fell.

To the politician in power in this rapidly fascist state, doling out food stamps and being a Hollywood celebrity are two powerful assets. Obama will be remembered for both.

[fesoferbex]

Panem et Circenses

[torchbearer]

In a material world, people will not "awake" until their material is taken.

this

[Natural Citizen]

I'm a bit of a cynic and skeptic. I have z-e-r-o hope that the NSA revelations will change a single thing in government or in the minds of the people.

Media from all across the spectrum is calling this the most important story in a generation. What else can be done? If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.

Well. Is important to note how conveniently neat and vague the whole prism thing was when it just got dropped into the hands of the main stream media. That's all I'm going to say about it.

[Czolgosz]

War on their doorstep. That's it.
...


A third, but less likely, option, is to geographically agglomerate ourselves FSP-style, and secede.

...


Those are the options. The latter will still require bloodshed, as it is evident authoritarians resolve to control everyone and everything is unrelenting.

Blood is an ingredient for freedom.


The whole "wake up" thing is a joke.

[fesoferbex]

There is no "waking up." Anymore, those who are awake are already awake. The ones being targeted now are children. The public education system is a machine to pump out more socialitarians.

[Thor]

"I ain't got nothin to hide. You can insert that rectal cam right here and I am OK with it."

[fesoferbex]

"I ain't got nothin to hide. You can insert that rectal cam right here and I am OK with it."

That's nearly word for word what some of the people were commenting on youtube for Snowden's video.

[awake]

If they (NSA) are not doing anything wrong, why care what any "leaker" says about their policies ? They should have nothing to hide right? No one is disputing what he says, both sides agree its true. The argument is whether he should rot in a dungeon or die.

[torchbearer]

The argument is whether he should rot in a dungeon or die.

you argument seemed narrowly defined.
i could also argue that he be given a heroes parade.

[awake]

you argument seemed narrowly defined.
i could also argue that he be given a heroes parade.

I agree, but the apes among us must do what apes do - murder, steal and enslave any one who does not worship their god of violence.

[green73]

Let's see, what woke up the Germans...

[fesoferbex]

I agree, but the apes among us must do what apes do - murder, steal and enslave any one who does not worship their god of violence.

I wish I could dispute that, but you're right; the tribal elders haven't gotten their quota of sacrifices to the blood god, so I guess it's about that time.

[torchbearer]

I agree, but the apes among us must do what apes do - murder, steal and enslave any one who does not worship their god of violence.

i think rand paul would give him that parade.
his dad would insist.
2016 could free this man from this prison he finds himself in... he could reunite with his family and resume his life if we can remove the tyrants.

[NoOneButPaul]

The answer... the only thing that ever could or will...

A full scale dollar collapse.

[torchbearer]

The answer... the only thing that ever could or will...

A full scale dollar collapse.

it will be rolling the dice... but when things get bad enough, the risk seems worth it.

[awake]

opps... Double Post

[awake]

it will be rolling the dice... but when things get bad enough, the risk seems worth it.

A full Greece meltdown will sort out the Washington cesspool. The US government surveillance hordes might try their hand at picketing not to have their wages cut in half instead of snooping on average Americans.

[CaptUSA]

With the boot of a tyrant on their necks, most people will commend him on the quality of leather of his soles.

[NoOneButPaul]

it will be rolling the dice... but when things get bad enough, the risk seems worth it.

Its the only thing that will awaken everyone from their stupor. It cannot be avoid by the mindless zombies that have their heads buried...

When it does happen the masses will demand answers and the onus will be on each and every one of us to give it to them good.

[TheTexan]

it will be rolling the dice... but when things get bad enough, the risk seems worth it.

sometimes you have to roll the hard six

[torchbearer]

Its the only thing that will awaken everyone from their stupor. It cannot be avoid by the mindless zombies that have their heads buried...

When it does happen the masses will demand answers and the onus will be on each and every one of us to give it to them good.

the people's ignorance will have them sending their violence in unpredictable ways.

[torchbearer]

sometimes you have to roll the hard six

they play dice every single day after work.
winning on a hard six- called, only once in 3 years. 900 dice games.

[mczerone]

What NSA story? It's baseball season and the NBA finals, and the NHL Conference finals, and NASCAR, and Golf, and family BBQs, and pool season, and camping, and fishing, and weddings, and bonfires, and boating, and season finales of reality TV and scripted TV, and my team rules and the other team sucks.

:rolleyes:

I don't abstain from those things, but there's lots of people that live for them and don't think about anything else.

Besides, even if people were paying attention, they'll just say "well this was one bad thing, my guy/team could do better, it's just the other side that's the problem. USA is great. USA USA USA!"

Then ask to see how many stamps their passport has - see if they've even seen another govt in action.

[BlackTerrel]

People are waking up. But there will always be some who won't care. Most people care about what impacts them and their lives - and that's actually pretty libertarian.

[fesoferbex]

People are waking up. But there will always be some who won't care. Most people care about what impacts them and their lives - and that's actually pretty libertarian.

Tough logic to argue with, but it does stand to reason that if there is a looming threat that requires collective defensive action, then that has reasonably been argued as libertarian as well. In this case, I'm referring to the NSA over-reach as a threat.

[NoOneButPaul]

the people's ignorance will have them sending their violence in unpredictable ways.

That's destined to happen anyway... whether its through a hyperinflation or an outright collapse. The chickens will come home to roost...

We have to prepare now so we can rebuild it all later.

[fesoferbex]

We have to prepare now so we can rebuild it all later. Well that's true, SOMEBODY has to do the work.

[fr33]

They'd kill people if they couldn't get a cellphone but only care a little if you spy on their phone.

[cindy25]

they are waking up, and just as with Vietnam it happens slowly until there is a tipping point

I would compare O'Reilley today to Cronkite then.

[HigherVision]

I don't think that people as a whole will ever all 'wake up'. I mean first off, half of people are women and most of them damn sure aren't going to become libertarian any time soon like it or not. And neither will blacks or Latinos most likely. Obviously there are people that will be waking up within those groups but I'm talking majorities and what's most probable based on the past. What we need to be concerned with is growing our base in order to build a coalition large enough to win elections. And candidates who are somewhat pro-liberty but not as much as we'd like like Rand are probably the best we'll ever realistically ever be able to elect as they draw in the most people. Clint Eastwood said "a man's gotta know his limitations" in one of his movies. We need to realize our limitations and work within them if we want to succeed. The left does this and that's why they've gotten as far as they have.

[Occam's Banana]

If the NSA story doesn't wake people up, what will?

A flash-bang grenade tossed into their bedrooms - or the sound of themselves and/or their household pets being shot - by stormtroopers known as "law enforcement officers" who have come to arbitrarily apply the even-more-arbitrary diktats of some politician or bureaucrat.

Oh, wait. You meant "wake up" in a figurative sense. Nevermind ...

[TheTexan]

What we need to be concerned with is growing our base in order to build a coalition large enough to win elections.

This is a democracy. Ruled by a majority. The majority of people want NOTHING to do with freedom. They want to feel secure, but more than that they want to be fed, entertained, and exercise petty control over others. Freedom has no value to these people. They like having their decisions made for them. It's easier that way.

This idea, that we can somehow "out-politic" forces of that magnitude... is a fantasy. A happy fantasy it is, but it's not realistic. Sorry. Politics has a role to play, but it's not the answer.

[fesoferbex]

I mean first off, half of people are women and most of them damn sure aren't going to become libertarian any time soon like it or not.

My wife is on board :). She's planning on wearing an "End the Fed" sash to our university whilst I wear my crazy concoction.

[HigherVision]

My wife is on board :). She's planning on wearing an "End the Fed" sash to our university whilst I wear my crazy concoction.

The majority of women will likely continue to vote for big government regardless.

[HigherVision]

This is a democracy. Ruled by a majority. The majority of people want NOTHING to do with freedom. They want to feel secure, but more than that they want to be fed, entertained, and exercise petty control over others. Freedom has no value to these people. They like having their decisions made for them. It's easier that way.

This idea, that we can somehow "out-politic" forces of that magnitude... is a fantasy. A happy fantasy it is, but it's not realistic. Sorry. Politics has a role to play, but it's not the answer.

When I talked to republicans while giving out cards promoting delegates for Ron Paul they were all against Ron Paul but all had favorable opinions of Rand. I think he stands a decent chance of getting the republican vote. As long as he bashes gay people and weed smokers and talks about how he loves Israel and stuff like that from time to time as he does. While meanwhile voting pretty libertarian in Congress, which people pay far less attention to. I think the paleocon/libertarian fusion thing has a decent future politically. I'd prefer a purer libertarianism but that's less likely to go over in the foreseeable future.

[J_White]

short answer - nothing will change.
media channels will make this trivial - it might say Bush did it to shut up the Repubs.
will it will rationalize it for the dems - because we need security.
people will lap it up and forget all about it and go watch the next blockbuster or buy the next iThing.

[J_White]

This is a democracy. Ruled by a majority. The majority of people want NOTHING to do with freedom. They want to feel secure, but more than that they want to be fed, entertained, and exercise petty control over others. Freedom has no value to these people. They like having their decisions made for them. It's easier that way.

This idea, that we can somehow "out-politic" forces of that magnitude... is a fantasy. A happy fantasy it is, but it's not realistic. Sorry. Politics has a role to play, but it's not the answer.

sadly true.

[HigherVision]

Well if politics isn't the answer then there is no answer because there sure as fuck aren't any answers outside of politics. Because the state surely isn't going to wither away or any crap like that as part of some great anarcho-capitalist awakening that people like Stefan Molyneux seem to think is going to happen. I stand by what I said, I think the Rand Paul brand of 'much more liberty than we have now though not total liberty' is catching on. If he can convince sheeple republicans that he's the next Reagan then we'll have something, and it could happen.

[Sujan]

This is a democracy. Ruled by a majority. The majority of people want NOTHING to do with freedom. They want to feel secure, but more than that they want to be fed, entertained, and exercise petty control over others. Freedom has no value to these people. They like having their decisions made for them. It's easier that way.

This idea, that we can somehow "out-politic" forces of that magnitude... is a fantasy. A happy fantasy it is, but it's not realistic. Sorry. Politics has a role to play, but it's not the answer.

Libertarianism will never get popular among the masses BECAUSE the masses are hyperallergic to personal responsibility.
They do not want this MORE than they want freedom. This is the core sole reason why socialism (collectivism) instead is the most popular form of government around the world.

‘Let the government take care of it’ => ‘I can sit back and enjoy my beer and watch live sports’

[awake]

Democracy is not majority rule. It is the same phoney system of a small minority that controls the majority under that the impression that we rule ourselves. Its a lie that serves the interests of the controlling few.

In any democratic outcome it is about 5 percent of the total population who decide for the rest.

[sluggo]

John Boehner was just on Good Morning America calling Snowden a traitor.

[IDefendThePlatform]

Libertarianism will never get popular among the masses BECAUSE the masses are hyperallergic to personal responsibility.
They do not want this MORE than they want freedom. This is the core sole reason why socialism (collectivism) instead is the most popular form of government around the world.

‘Let the government take care of it’ => ‘I can sit back and enjoy my beer and watch live sports’


I disagree. Ron Paul absolutely dominated the voting % of people who use the Internet as their primary news source. In a six person field he had roughly 50% of that demographic.

The main reason more people aren't friendly to libertarianism is the stranglehold on information that the national news media has had for the last century or so. It's loosening now with the Internet, so that gives me hope that even if people won't wake up enough to end the fed before it gets really ugly, it's still coming at some point.

I would however agree that the best means to get to a libertarian society is not the voting box. Agorism and satyagraha seems more practical to me.

[Paulatized]

John Boehner was just on Good Morning America calling Snowden a traitor.

It seems that this has been a big stick from which to draw a deep line in the sand and people who are not particularly interested in political affairs, but have a gut feeling this was a against what our nation was founded on, are taking note of which Republicans are on which side. On the one side: John McCain, Lindsey Graham, John Boehner and so on... Of course most on this forum have not been surprised how it has lined up, but many who would otherwise not give political matters a second thought are now scratching their heads in confusion, and maybe taking note of who is really looking out for them, and concluding it's not Bill O. or Graham or McCain or Boehner.

[TheTexan]

When I talked to republicans while giving out cards promoting delegates for Ron Paul they were all against Ron Paul but all had favorable opinions of Rand. I think he stands a decent chance of getting the republican vote. As long as he bashes gay people and weed smokers and talks about how he loves Israel and stuff like that from time to time as he does. While meanwhile voting pretty libertarian in Congress, which people pay far less attention to. I think the paleocon/libertarian fusion thing has a decent future politically. I'd prefer a purer libertarianism but that's less likely to go over in the foreseeable future.

Maybe. We'll see. I think it's far more likely that when election season actually starts, the talking heads and their sheep will be herded into the likes of Cain, Bachmann, etc. Candidates who talk a good game of "small government" without all the "baggage", and Rand will be tossed to the side, like his father.

I will admit it is possible for Rand to win. I just don't think it's very likely. Consider it an experiment: if it works, I'll reconsider the political approach. If it fails, I hope you reconsider other approaches. And there are other approaches. Notably FSP, secession, and other various NSA keywords

[mport1]

Most people agree with this program... - http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

The Free State Project, secession, or seasteading are the best options.

[Matthew5]

Most people agree with this program... - http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/

The Free State Project, secession, or seasteading are the best options.

Is secession the ultimate goal of a FSP? Just curious.

[liveandletlive]

They don't care. They are sheep. They are cowards. They will do as their told, scrap for whatever money they can earn even if its being inflated and pilfered.

They don't care as long as Big Brother is protecting them.

[TheTexan]

Is secession the ultimate goal of a FSP? Just curious.

No. FSP by design has no goals, other than getting activists to the state.

Im of the opinion that secession is the only logical conclusion of such a project, but im sure many members of the FSP would disagree with that.

[jllundqu]

I wish I could move to NH FSP... I'm a bit 'anchored' here in the desert. Maybe one day the opportunity will be there. Although, I don't want to be anywhere near New England in a post-collapse environment... :eek:

[DamianTV]

If the NSA story doesn't wake people up, what will?

There are a lot of people that dont want to wake up. Why? Waking up is HARD. Others are already awake and have Blind Faith in the Govt. Some are wide awake but are not in any sort of position that benefits from them being awake.

And we have a rather large group that is just still asleep. To awaken those people will take nothing short of Genocide committed by our own Govt, and too many of us can see that coming. Problem is that by the time they do wake up, it will be too late.

[HigherVision]

Maybe. We'll see. I think it's far more likely that when election season actually starts, the talking heads and their sheep will be herded into the likes of Cain, Bachmann, etc. Candidates who talk a good game of "small government" without all the "baggage", and Rand will be tossed to the side, like his father.

I will admit it is possible for Rand to win. I just don't think it's very likely. Consider it an experiment: if it works, I'll reconsider the political approach. If it fails, I hope you reconsider other approaches. And there are other approaches. Notably FSP, secession, and other various NSA keywords

Yeah maybe you're right. Like Rand would get more votes than Ron did perhaps but still would only come in second or third and the establishment guy will win. I could see that.

[fesoferbex]

To awaken those people will take nothing short of Genocide committed by our own Govt, and too many of us can see that coming.

And even in Hitler's Germany it STILL wasn't enough to awaken the sheep. The Allied forces had to drag people from local towns and walk them through the camps PERSONALLY to make them understand, to make them wake up. And here we are, 70 years later, the deaths of 11 million at the hands of Hitler, and people are denying it ever happened.

Maybe this is just the way of the world? But how can it be... The Constitution was written by people mostly awake, so surely it can happen again?? :\

[HigherVision]

I wish I could move to NH FSP... I'm a bit 'anchored' here in the desert. Maybe one day the opportunity will be there. Although, I don't want to be anywhere near New England in a post-collapse environment... :eek:

That's the only real solution I can see. If libertarians are a political minority and destined to remain one then we'd need to congregate together and organize politically in that one location. Easier said than done, that requires some serious life changes.

[fesoferbex]

That's the only real solution I can see. If libertarians are a political minority and destined to remain one then we'd need to congregate together and organize politically in that one location. Easier said than done, that requires some serious life changes.

If our lives are being forced to change ANYWAYS, might as well be proactive and make the change first, yeah?

[Thor]

That's the only real solution I can see. If libertarians are a political minority and destined to remain one then we'd need to congregate together and organize politically in that one location. Easier said than done, that requires some serious life changes.

Shootin' fish in a barrel.

[brushfire]

I dont do anything illegal, so what do I have to hide?

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/trollface/troll-dancing-smiley-emoticon.gif

[helmuth_hubener]

When I told her about this, my wife said something like "maybe everyone will be a Ron Paul now". I had to give my opinion that the media are very good at molding and redirecting opinion, and though it seems like people are almost universally upset right now, the media will likely be successful in turning things around and changing the opinions of the majority. But some people will stay upset. Their outrage and hate for the government will be permanent. They will come to our side.

Our movement is growing more and more. Can't stop the signal. We have an idea whose time may finally be coming.

[HigherVision]

When I told her about this, my wife said something like "maybe everyone will be a Ron Paul now". I had to give my opinion that the media are very good at molding and redirecting opinion, and though it seems like people are almost universally upset right now, the media will likely be successful in turning things around and changing the opinions of the majority. But some people will stay upset. Their outrage and hate for the government will be permanent. They will come to our side.

Our movement is growing more and more. Can't stop the signal. We have an idea whose time may finally be coming.

I think it's gonna be a slow bumpy ride though.

[Thor]

80% of Americans: "Just implant the chip in me already."

[Henry Rogue]

80% of Americans: "Just implant the chip in me already."Because it will make amerika safe. Do it for the children.

[DamianTV]

And even in Hitler's Germany it STILL wasn't enough to awaken the sheep. The Allied forces had to drag people from local towns and walk them through the camps PERSONALLY to make them understand, to make them wake up. And here we are, 70 years later, the deaths of 11 million at the hands of Hitler, and people are denying it ever happened.

Maybe this is just the way of the world? But how can it be... The Constitution was written by people mostly awake, so surely it can happen again?? :\

The Constitution was written by people that were fully awake to the dangers that now face us as a country, our own Govt. The downside is that the Constitution as a living breathing document must be protected and enforced by people alive today, and that means that although it was written by people that were awake, it is protected by people that are either asleep or view it as an obstruction that must be gotten rid of.

[HigherVision]

The Constitution was written by people that were fully awake to the dangers that now face us as a country, our own Govt. The downside is that the Constitution as a living breathing document must be protected and enforced by people alive today, and that means that although it was written by people that were awake, it is protected by people that are either asleep or view it as an obstruction that must be gotten rid of.

Well the demographic of people who vote in elections has changed considerably since then. Back then evil white males controlled the political system of the U.S. and the result was free markets, limited government and rising living standards.

[Christian Liberty]

I feel hopeless, but I still try to wake people up. Just remember that if there's ever a real civil war, many will sit on the sidelines.
John Stossel is apparently sleeping. I just lost more hope... (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/139450.html)

War on their doorstep. That's it. Science has told us personality is engrained by society, and by genes. Most personalities evolve but older ones are more static.

Ron Paul caputured the kids and for this exact reason. Why spend millions of dollars to get old people to vote when in 10 years they will want and need the very things they railed against for most of their lives.

The only reason there is so many of us now is you can't hide the information anymore in libraries and gateholders. We can access information 24/7 and judge for ourselves. Most people need to reinforce ideas for them too stick. IE "that isn't what the news said", "that isn't what mitt said" etc. on and on.

Libertarian minded people might only be like 10-15% of the actual population. If want too rule in a democracy you need a majority.

We need to lie or become tyrants. Either of which I don't like, want, or want to be a part of.

Here's the question. Can you be a dictator (In the loosest sense of that word... meaning that all decisions that government makes are made by one person) without being a tyrant? I think hypothetically you could, but the only people I'd trust with the power are people that would reject it.

[UWDude]

Americans will be the last to wake up. But "Operation Boundless Informant" was exposed too, and that showed how the United States used technology companies to spy on everyone in the world. Americans may gobble up the spin, but the rest of the world already distrusts the United States. America will be the last to wake up, and it will not be pretty. I dream of the day they are all forced to march past their holocaust victims.

[Matthew5]

Maybe this will answer your question:



Honestly, I don't care if NASA and the FBI have my phone records. like seriously, keep them. I sure don't want them.
— Candy Hearts (@CandyHeartsBand) June 7, 2013 (https://twitter.com/CandyHeartsBand/status/343088467535876097)

I'm surprised and a little disappointed that there's not more chatter on @twitter (https://twitter.com/twitter) about @nasa (https://twitter.com/nasa) spying on @verizon (https://twitter.com/verizon) customers.
— Erik Rasmussen (@erikras) June 6, 2013


(https://twitter.com/erikras/status/342631763849400320)


Think you're free? You're not. D notice slapped on all news outlets concerning reporting of NASA spy program PRISM.
— Kazuri Community (@KazuriHomes) June 8, 2013


(https://twitter.com/KazuriHomes/status/343321334186643456)


PRESIDENT SHOULD ADDRESS NATION ON THE LEAKS. STRESS THE DANGER WE ARE IN. NOTE THAT THE NASA PEEPING IS MEANT FOR SPIES LIKE SNOWDEN & CO
—Kolachi Sahr Pombor (@SAPOMBOR) June 11, 2013


(https://twitter.com/SAPOMBOR/status/344554052803256320)


So, PRISM? NASA? CIA? IRS? Bring it. I know where you live.
— Kathleen McKinley (@KatMcKinley) June 7, 2013


(https://twitter.com/KatMcKinley/status/342844282102771712)


@csoghoian (https://twitter.com/csoghoian) @x7o (https://twitter.com/x7o) The name is Prism. Yahoo, Google et al are denying. NASA say's given access. We have a constitution .@barackobama (https://twitter.com/barackobama)
— Dan Wayment (@cantcu) June 7, 2013


(https://twitter.com/cantcu/status/342811223760453633)


Salut to Snowden. He risks his life to tell the word that NASA has pulled the 21st century back to 1984.
— goenawan mohamad (@gm_gm) June 10, 2013 (https://twitter.com/gm_gm/status/344102543741313024)




US govt are guilty of invading my privacyas an EU citizen. Washington is not responsible for my security. Stopbreaking our laws. #NASA (https://twitter.com/search/%23NASA)
— Leighton Cooke (@leightoncooke) June 11, 2013

(https://twitter.com/leightoncooke/status/344392808393760768)


What is NASA doing spying on us, shouldn't they be focused on improving relations with Muslims?
— AG (@AG_Conservative) June 11, 2013

(https://twitter.com/AG_Conservative/status/344265840306302976)


F##k you Verizon and f##k you NASA!
— One Sicfuc (@JustJosh333) June 6, 2013

(https://twitter.com/JustJosh333/status/342669385019826178)


F##k you @nasa (https://twitter.com/nasa) Lying c##ts
— wiggins (@eddwiggins) June 6, 2013 (https://twitter.com/eddwiggins/status/342730986829799424)




h/t Collegehumor

[fesoferbex]

NASA? WTF EVEN?

[pathtofreedom]

People won't be woken up because they are too busy
Buying goods at Walmart at subsidized prices
Living in a suburban home zoned into existence bought with a government guaranteed mortgage
driving on government roads
eating subsidized GMO foods
being vaccinated
drinking fluoridated government water
Working for the government
watching news stations owned by the government indirectly or broadcasted on regulated airwaves
or attending government indoctrination centers ie: so called schools and so called education
or some way on the government dole.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

The IRS scandal and the 8 million "core" list scandal needs to be pushed more. What they are doing with the information ie.

[speciallyblend]

I'm a bit of a cynic and skeptic. I have z-e-r-o hope that the NSA revelations will change a single thing in government or in the minds of the people.

Media from all across the spectrum is calling this the most important story in a generation. What else can be done? If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geHLdg_VNww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geHLdg_VNww

[Icymudpuppy]

Most American's will not wake up any sooner than most German's did... At international war crimes trials.

[osan]

I'm a bit of a cynic and skeptic. I have z-e-r-o hope that the NSA revelations will change a single thing in government or in the minds of the people.

Media from all across the spectrum is calling this the most important story in a generation. What else can be done? If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.

Broken record time.

Given what I have observed over my lifetime, we are most likely doomed as a race. Not even Theye will prosper in the end. Why? Because of Theire nature - their proclivities, shall I say?

Who can tell what the innermost intentions and sentiments of another man are? Speaking only for myself, I do not even know what those of Ron Paul are. I can only extrapolate based on what I observe of his, or anyone else's, speech and behavior. Therefore, I can only go by what Theye say and do - the rest is up for speculation, and yet we can make some fair to middling guesses.

My point is that based on the assumption that we are all human (there are those who subscribe to "reptile people" and even "demons" beliefs, that we are ruled by non-humans... doubtful but who knows?), those of the true ruling elite are not by necessity immune to the self-same weaknesses that have defeated every empire culture that has existed to date. So, imagine that Theire plan is to secure this world for themselves only. Imagine that through technological means they succeed in culling the population down to, say, the 500 millions prescribed on the GA guidestones. Theye get everything they want. If they are human, Theye will fall in any event because it appears, based on the historical record, that this personality type which craves control, must always be striving and tends to seek enemies. It appears there must always be an enemy... somewhere, under some rock or someone's bed. Without that, the unnaturally high levels of social cohesion necessary to maintain a state of empire wanes dangerously such that the very structure of empire is threatened.

If this be the case, I suspect that even in the Elite Utopia the search for the "enemy within" will continue. Now, consider human proclivity once again from another angle: psychological creep. Mind creeps. Belief creeps. Standards creep. By these means perception creeps. What is seen one day as horrible is the next tolerable. The day after that, agreeable and after that, demanded. Anyone remember that famous court case that cited "relative deprivation"? There was a time when people saw deprivation as the inability to eat. Today, people see it as not having a shiny new $40K automobile in the driveway. Perception changes. Now, consider that coupled with an endless search for new enemies. When the eyes cannot find what the mind seeks, the mind will often seek something new because the drive for satisfaction is that overbearing for some. When the enemy without is gone because everyone "out there" has been culled out of the population, people turn within. New subtleties arise in one's considerations of his fellows. Yesterday when the enemy was out there, Johnny was my loyal compatriot. Now that the outer threat is gone and given my position that there is always an enemy somewhere, I now begin scrutinizing Johnny for his purity. Perhaps unbeknownst to me, Johnny is doing the same with me.

In time, new social orders arise and the logically absurd conclusion in all this becomes two lone humans, having inherited the entire earth, occupying the same cave whilst very nervously eyeing each other from opposite sides of the fire. One might think that they would occupy widely separated caves. No. People not only need each other, they want to be around each other and those two miserable vestiges of the race would be no different, despite their mutual fear and mistrust of one another. It is one of the great goofs of all time - we hate and fear each other, yet cannot live without each other. This, more than anything else, is what Empire has brought to humanity; what it has wrought; what it has foisted - and it is as dangerously rotten as the days are long at the poles.

The elite, by the very nature of their apparent ways of thinking, doom themselves right along with the rest of us. Empire dooms us because it is not compatible with the fundamental fabric of this universe - at least not in human hands. The truly amusing aspect of this lies in observing their swagger as they so very apparently believe themselves to be above it all. Were it not for that small percentage of humanity I personally deem worthy of salvation, it would be my wish to live long enough to witness the expressions of shock and awe on those once-smug faces as they begin cannibalizing each other once all their external foes were eliminated and all that was left to them was to turn on one another. I would, in fact, sell my soul to the Devil himself for the opportunity to witness the wailing and the gnashing of Theire teeth as they fell uncomprehendingly into the Stygian pit.

Let one and all be certain of one thing; these people are endlessly clever and boudnlessly avaricious, but there is nothing to suggest to me that they are of particularly high intelligence. Opportunity, access, and sheer drive can often produce a convincing appearance of superior intelligence. That belief should be resisted. It should also be understood that intelligence is not really a prerequisite for world domination. Patience and the masonic ability to plan and execute in a piecemeal fashion is what is needed. One ashlar placed atop the other - one at a time in accord with a sound architecture. That is how the temple is erected. Forms go up and arches built upon them. Once the keystone is set, the forms are knocked out of place. And here I speak in terms of principle and am not alluding in any substantive way to Freemasons, but it should be noted that the conceptual framework there enshrined is perfect for such conquest.

What it all boils down to is this: we as free men are almost certainly hosed. Just look about yourselves: in the midst of all this insanity most of America is still at the mall, not so very differently in its surreal quality as Hitler and his henchies down in the bunker in April of 45, drinking champagne and dancing as their nation burned to ash above their heads. That being the case, and here is the broken record part, one is faced with a choice: crack and beer and say to hell with it in the spirit of uncle Adolph, or fight Themme just because you still can and regardless of the fact that it will avail you no victory. I see this as a situation where we have nothing to lose by trying. I would rather go to my end in resistance than on my knees. On my knees? To the likes of Themme? No thank you.

Assume the worst.

Hope for the best.

[angelatc]

I'm a bit of a cynic and skeptic. I have z-e-r-o hope that the NSA revelations will change a single thing in government or in the minds of the people.

Media from all across the spectrum is calling this the most important story in a generation. What else can be done? If this story doesn't shake people loose from their comas, we have nothing left to do but run for the hills.


No disrespect, but maybe we're the people in comas. Maybe people do not want to be free, and that's why our Republic failed.

[bolil]

Waking up. I challenge this phrase. People are still in the nightmare, or dream, or whatever they've found the contrived shadow puppets cast on the wall to be. It seems to me that more people find it a to be a dream and resist to recognize the nightmare poking through this morphic veil.

His chains were looser, and he managed to turn around and see what was happening behind our backs instead of doing a many others, see it and join, or know but still like the shadow puppet show. That he told EVERYONE, however, is the remarkable thing; the other thing is that most of the people when told, shrugged, said they liked it and kept on watching the show.

I find this very sad. Because these things are the great com

[Thor]

No disrespect, but maybe we're the people in comas. Maybe people do not want to be free, and that's why our Republic failed.

Perhaps you are right, but more and more people are on Prozac, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, Paxil, Aderall, Abilify, etc, etc... plus a dash of Ambien every night... and I think the "coma patient" is revealed. But being test tube fed is easier for sure.

[The Freethinker]

Many of them do not want to wake up. They don't want their cushy lives with the NBA/NHL/MLB/NFL/NCAA games to end. They do not wish to lose their sitcoms or reality shows.

Some of them may say that they already deal with enough unpleasant facts/things at work and they want a respite from the stress/headaches/politics of the workplace. Understandable. But even during our personal time/weekends, when we are not doing anything related to our work and must deal w/ the mundane and oftentimes tiring and surely "un-fun" things of life: errands, buying groceries, getting our vehicles serviced, etc - we all know that life isn't always peachy. Life has its unpleasantries.

The problem is that these people, having been born/raised/reared within a system where nationalism supersedes patriotism (the former being loyalty to the government of the country and the latter loyalty to the people themselves) and where both are confused as the same, that questioning those in charge is seen as tantamount to treason - with the sole and politically correct exception of when the political party running the show is the one whose candidate beat "our guy." Then it's fair game. No wonder the Democrats and liberals who foamed at the mouth as they denounced George W. Bush's aggression against Iraq say nothing of Barack H. Obama's war crimes (drones) in Pakistan.

If the lockdown/martial law scene in Boston didn't make people wonder and worry... If the Patriot Act and the NDAA didn't make people raise their eyebrows... if the IRS and Bengazhi scandals failed to convince people they've been had... If the subprime crisis didn't convey to people loudly enough that the economy is in the toilet...

... it will take a full-scale and open abrogation of civilian government, with the president now acting, speaking, and ruling overtly as a dictator to make people wake up.

... it will take a Greece bail-in/Argentina 2001-style confiscation to make people wake up.

And by then it'll be too late.

(let me not even mention the 2nd Amendment. The sheeple are especially sheeple-like when it comes to guns.)

[stu2002]

Hipsters are Dumb Fucks .....

Mark Zuckerberg admits in a New Yorker profile that he mocked early Facebook users for trusting him with their personal information. A youthful indiscretion, the Facebook founder says he's much more mature now, at the ripe age of 26.

"They trust me — dumb fucks," says Zuckerberg in one of the instant messages, first published by former Valleywag Nicholas Carlson at Silicon Alley Insider, and now confirmed by Zuckerberg himself in Jose Antonio Vargas's New Yorker piece. Zuckerberg now tells Vargas, "I think I've grown and learned a lot" since those instant messages.

http://gawker.com/5636765/facebook-ceo-admits-to-calling-users-dumb-fucks

[Czolgosz]

If people had the ability to "wake up," there would have been many more "Americas" than just this one.


The freedom you get is the freedom you *fight* for. Find a supportive geographical area, come together, plant a flag of freedom, and defend it.

[QuickZ06]

The nation's new billion-dollar epicenter for fighting global cyberthreats sits just south of Salt Lake City, tucked away on a National Guard base at the foot of snow-capped mountains. The long, squat buildings span 1.5 million square feet, and are filled with super-powered computers designed to store massive amounts of information gathered secretly from phone calls and emails.

Two small, weathered signs in the sagebrush greet interlopers to this place with a stark warning: "Military reservation. No trespassing." But there is no visible marker bearing the facility's name and operator: The Utah Data Center, brought to you courtesy of the National Security Agency.

When it opens this fall, the facility will be the NSA's largest data storage center in the U.S. Just don't ask Utah officials, and certainly not the residents of tiny Bluffdale, just north of the new center, to tell you exactly what will go on inside. They either don't know, or aren't saying. And the NSA is famously tight-lipped.

"We know it's a spy center. But who are they spying on?" said Connie Robbins, an upholstery shop owner who lives in Bluffdale, a community of 8,000 some 25 miles south of Salt Lake City that is known for its rodeo and annual Old West Days.

The dearth of information has perpetuated a mystery that has spawned dozens of theories and a spoof website that even includes a phony code name for the facility: "Bumblehive," a play on Utah's nickname of the "Beehive State."

Last week's revelation that the NSA is collecting millions of U.S. phone records along with digital communications stored by nine major Internet providers illustrates how aggressively personal information is being congregated and analyzed — and shines a brighter light on what will be going on in secret at the Utah facility, scheduled to open in October.

NSA officials say the center will play a key role in the nation's effort to protect national security networks, and allow U.S. authorities to monitor for potential cyberthreats. In an email, agency spokeswoman Vanee Vines said that "many unfounded allegations have been made about the planned activities" of the center.

"NSA would like to confirm, on the record, that the Utah Data Center is a state-of-the-art data facility designed to support the U.S. intelligence community's efforts to further strengthen and protect the nation. Its operations will be lawfully conducted in accordance with U.S. laws and policies," Vines wrote.

http://news.yahoo.com/utah-home-nsas-mega-warehouse-data-080502716.html

[awake]

The government is in dire need of a huge distraction. Keep your eyes peeled, an "event" might be coming.

[Sujan]

The government is in dire need of a huge distraction. Keep your eyes peeled, an "event" might be coming.

Exactly. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I’m pretty sure the federal government is craving for a classic ‘wag-the-dog’ event.
Or even better for them, an outright terrorist attack.

[speciallyblend]

this sums up the sleeping sheep, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIgZ7gMze7A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIgZ7gMze7A

[cbc58]

I haven't read this entire thread but can pretty much figure out the gist of the discussion. I honestly think alot of people have woken up - and understand what is going on - that is not the problem. The problem is giving them an avenue and tools to do something about it. I have been trying to explain this for years here - even made a proposal to try and get something developed - but not one response - not one. People are apathetic and want others to do the work for them. There has to be something simple and easy that gets the public involved (everyone) otherwise the stuff that is happening will just keep happening. Just look what has come down the pike in the last two weeks - amazing.

I would also like to point out that this is a very insulated group - kind of like a classroom at a large university - the discussions happen here and generally stay here - and then you go out on campus and no one knows what went on in that class.

[osan]

I haven't read this entire thread but can pretty much figure out the gist of the discussion. I honestly think alot of people have woken up - and understand what is going on - that is not the problem. The problem is giving them an avenue and tools to do something about it. I have been trying to explain this for years here - even made a proposal to try and get something developed - but not one response - not one. People are apathetic and want others to do the work for them. There has to be something simple and easy that gets the public involved (everyone) otherwise the stuff that is happening will just keep happening. Just look what has come down the pike in the last two weeks - amazing.

I would also like to point out that this is a very insulated group - kind of like a classroom at a large university - the discussions happen here and generally stay here - and then you go out on campus and no one knows what went on in that class.

This is valid. I had the same experiences with apathy. People talk a blue streak but disappear when it is time to do more than open one's wallet. This is one of the cornerstones of Theire success. Theye rely on this characteristic of humans because most people are followers in the sense that they are so damned lazy they will surrender their sovereignty and even their very lives to damned near anyone with the oats to step up and declare himself in charge.

The superior man is awash in a great ocean of dull, lazy, and corrupt brethren. This is why his evolutionary path is almost certainly a dead-end. But no matter. Things will be what they will and we will each meet our ends as we see fit. At this point I have adopted the warrior's posture - to fight with no expectation, hope, or desire for victory; to meet fate head on, come what may. As for the rest, let them also do as they see fit.

[Thor]

I haven't read this entire thread but can pretty much figure out the gist of the discussion. I honestly think alot of people have woken up - and understand what is going on - that is not the problem. The problem is giving them an avenue and tools to do something about it. I have been trying to explain this for years here - even made a proposal to try and get something developed - but not one response - not one. People are apathetic and want others to do the work for them. There has to be something simple and easy that gets the public involved (everyone) otherwise the stuff that is happening will just keep happening. Just look what has come down the pike in the last two weeks - amazing.

I would also like to point out that this is a very insulated group - kind of like a classroom at a large university - the discussions happen here and generally stay here - and then you go out on campus and no one knows what went on in that class.

What was the proposal? If no one replied, it did not get promoted to the front page and a lot of people probably missed it. Do you have an idea for something simple and easy to get everyone involved?

[cbc58]

This is a recent post on it, but I have posted the idea a number of times since 2008 with little response. I just think that if there is a way to organize and present information, and resulting voter opinion in a public format, that the mainstream media and elected officials won't be able to deny or argue that the public felt otherwise. It's mostly educating people to what is really going on then making their voice heard.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?406464-Business-Competition-this-weekend-voter-education-and-empowerment-idea&highlight=ballotstorm

[tod evans]

This is a recent post on it, but I have posted the idea a number of times since 2008 with little response. I just think that if there is a way to organize and present information, and resulting voter opinion in a public format, that the mainstream media and elected officials won't be able to deny or argue that the public felt otherwise. It's mostly educating people to what is really going on then making their voice heard.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?406464-Business-Competition-this-weekend-voter-education-and-empowerment-idea&highlight=ballotstorm

I believe the days of voting actually effecting change in policy ended many decades ago.

At this point it's all semantics.

[angelatc]

I believe the days of voting actually effecting change in policy ended many decades ago.

At this point it's all semantics.


I agree with that. The ruling elite have no interest in governing in a Republic or even a Democracy. They ignore us except when they're running for reelection against opponents that aren't significantly different philisophically than they are.

[cbc58]

I believe the days of voting actually effecting change in policy ended many decades ago.

At this point it's all semantics.

Wouldn't you agree that's because the special interests have us all so conditioned that most people don't grasp what is really going on? If they did - and had a very easy way to speak out or contact their elected officials - that might turn the momentum and get people into office that would effect change. Look at what happened when craigslist shut down for a day... huge blowback from voters.

[tod evans]

It's not just the special interests...

Washington and most local governments are broken beyond repair.

Special interest groups will hasten their demise, and voter education is a wise move simply because ignorance breeds dependence.

[Occam's Banana]

Wouldn't you agree that's because the special interests have us all so conditioned that most people don't grasp what is really going on? If they did - and had a very easy way to speak out or contact their elected officials - that might turn the momentum and get people into office that would effect change. Look at what happened when craigslist shut down for a day... huge blowback from voters.

No. It's because the country is too damn big. A legislative chamber - of what? 535 people? - to "represent" a nation of almost a third of a billion people? With federal elections in which you get to vote for only 4 of 536 offices - every 6 years?

Pffffffttt! It is to laugh. Under those conditions, voting means absolutely doodly-squat - special interests or no special interests.

Nullification. Decentralization. Localization. Secession. This is the only cure - a radical fed-ectomy.

[cbc58]

No. It's because the country is too damn big. A legislative chamber - of what? 535 people? - to "represent" a nation of almost a third of a billion people? With federal elections in which you get to vote for only 4 of 536 offices - every 6 years?

Pffffffttt! It is to laugh. Under those conditions, voting means absolutely doodly-squat - special interests or no special interests.

Nullification. Decentralization. Localization. Secession. This is the only cure - a radical fed-ectomy.


The fact that you favor letting everything collapse vs. putting a miniscule amount of effort into changing the system shows the level of apathy we are up against. Heck, people here did money bombs for TV advertising for one-shot ads where a single one minute commercial could pay for something like this - and for what?? ..so media companies could make more money?

I believe the power of the vote and of the "collective voice" and action is stronger than many here think. There are studies done where if a certain tipping point is reached, people will automatically move the way others do even if their instincts tell them otherwise. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Granovetter#.22Tipping_points.22_.2F_threshol d_models

By not doing anything you/me/we are just giving the powers-that-be more power.

[tod evans]

Didn't sound too me as if Nanner is in favor of collapse...

Sounded more like a sane but jaded observation.

Heck, he even offered forms of "action" instead of talking...

[cbc58]

I hope my post was not taken the wrong way.
Nullification. Decentralization. Localization. Secession. is pretty much a collapse of our current system... isn't it? He makes a good point - but less than 1/10th of 1% of the population thinks like that - you need to operate in the reality of the masses to have any chance of getting anything done.

[Occam's Banana]

The fact that you favor letting everything collapse vs. putting a miniscule amount of effort into changing the system shows the level of apathy we are up against.

Who said anything about "letting everything collapse?" I do not favor any such thing. Not even remotely.

The fact that you think I do casts your reading comprehension skills into serious doubt.


Heck, people here did money bombs for TV advertising for one-shot ads where a single one minute commercial could pay for something like this - and for what?? ..so media companies could make more money?

Apparently so.


I believe the power of the vote and of the "collective voice" and action is stronger than many here think.

And you are wrong. I told you why you are wrong in my previous post. Wishful thinking ain't gonna change the cold, hard facts.

The number of people in the country is too damn big. The number of federal elected positions is too damn small.

That makes for a bottleneck that just can't be squeezed through. End of story. I don't like it either, but that's just the way it is.


There are studies done where if a certain tipping point is reached, people will automatically move the way others do even if their instincts tell them otherwise. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Granovetter#.22Tipping_points.22_.2F_threshol d_models

Yeah, I know about this "tipping point" stuff. Get back to me when you've actually got a predictive model with a proven track record - rather than a "magic bullet" theory in the form of statistics-based speculations masquerading as "science."


By not doing anything you/me/we are just giving the powers-that-be more power.

Who said anything about "not doing anything" - I told you exactly what needs to be done. I can't help it if you don't want to hear it.


less than 1/10th of 1% of the population thinks like that - you need to operate in the reality of the masses to have any chance of getting anything done.

0.1%? Make numbers up out of thin air, much? Or do have an actual source for that figure?

If you do, you should tell it to the Tenth Amendment Center. Tell it to the all the people who have so diligently and so successfully worked to enact nullification - either de jure or de facto - at the state and local levels (with respect to marijuana decriminalization, repudiation of federal gun regulations, REAL ID, NDAA, etc., etc., etc.). I'm sure they'll be interested to know just how pointlessly futile their efforts have been - and how out of touch with the "reality of the masses" they are.

[cbc58]

Who said anything about "letting everything collapse?" I do not favor any such thing. Not even remotely.

The fact that you think I do casts your reading comprehension skills into serious doubt.



Apparently so.



And you are wrong. I told you why you are wrong in my previous post. Wishful thinking ain't gonna change the cold, hard facts.

The number of people in the country is too damn big. The number of federal elected positions is too damn small.

That makes for a bottleneck that just can't be squeezed through. End of story. I don't like it either, but that's just the way it is.



Yeah, I know about this "tipping point" stuff. Get back to me when you've actually got a predictive model with a proven track record - rather than a "magic bullet" theory in the form of statistics-based speculations masquerading as "science."



Who said anything about "not doing anything" - I told you exactly what needs to be done. I can't help it if you don't want to hear it.



0.1%? Make numbers up out of thin air, much? Or do have an actual source for that figure?

If you do, you should tell it to the Tenth Amendment Center. Tell it to the all the people who have so diligently and so successfully worked to enact nullification - either de jure or de facto - at the state and local levels (with respect to marijuana decriminalization, repudiation of federal gun regulations, REAL ID, NDAA, etc., etc., etc.). I'm sure they'll be interested to know just how pointlessly futile their efforts have been - and how out of touch with the "reality of the masses" they are.

did you really have to respond this way to my post? pretty disrespectful treatment. i don't know who you are or what your story is but this type of flippant reply is one of the reasons this liberty movement gets nowhere. You are right - everyone else is wrong - people are stupid for not knowing what you know or taking your side. Must suck being you.

[Occam's Banana]

did you really have to respond this way to my post? pretty disrespectful treatment.

In post #109 you put words in my mouth (telling me that I "favor letting everything collapse"), you accuse me of being "apathetic" (apparently for no other reason than that I did not agree with you), and you chided me about the perils of "not doing anything" (despite the fact that I had specified exactly what course of action I think should be actively pursued). You did these things even though I had done no such things to you. Essentially, you just ignored everything I actually said & replaced it with what you apparently wanted to imagine I said (or believed).

Tell me: is that what you consider "respectful" treatment?


i don't know who you are or what your story is

Then why did you presume to speak as though you did?


but this type of flippant reply is one of the reasons this liberty movement gets nowhere.

My reply was blunt & brusque. That tends to happen when someone replies to me by ignoring what I actually said in favor of "analyzing" my beliefs & attitudes without warrant or cause. Had you replied to what I said (by trying to show how it was wrong or irrelevant or whatnot), my repsonse would have been decidedly less prickly.


You are right - everyone else is wrong - people are stupid for not knowing what you know or taking your side. Must suck being you.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. Again.

I did not say everyone else is wrong. I said you were wrong about the particular things I addressed.

I did not call "people" stupid. I did not call you stupid. In fact, I did not call you anything at all.

I did not put any words in your mouth. I simply told you that I think you are wrong and I told you the reasons why.

Finally, I fear I must confess that I haven't got the vaguest notion of whether it sucks being you.

I guess I'm just not the "psychoanalyst" you are ...

[Liberty74]

I've spoken of David Wilcock on here last year in regards to a freedom group that has many people working within different levels of the federal government. This group has been planning lawsuits, arrests on mass levels against journalists, politicians, judges, etc. and much more (http://divinecosmos.com/start-here/davids-blog/1043-massarrests). This NSA scandal is just one piece of the puzzle for exposing the fact the our government is illegitimate and controlled by the power elite and the "cabal." All of this has been in the planning since the 70s according to his source that goes by the name "Drake."

We shall see how all this pans out. But honestly, America is over folks...

1. the extreme regulations to deindustrialize manufacturing shipping jobs overseas
2. government expansion of spending that causes higher taxes and more debt
3. 2 billion bullets purchased
4. Patriot Act - destruction of 4th Amendment
5. NDAA - destruction of 5th Amendment
6. Internet Kill Switch
7. 30,000 drones coming to a sky near you
8. TSA - condition you to submit
9. Fusion centers mining everything we do
10. dozens of empty FEMA camps strategically set up across America
11. and much much more...

There is no doubt our government is preparing for civil unrest. What will cause that I dunno - dollar collapse? staged nuclear event? WWIII? race riots?

Regardless, America is over. The people are zombies. As long as football is on TV and the shopping stores are open, people in general don't give a damn. There is not enough of us to make a change or difference because the two party system is an illusion. There is no major difference behind the curtain between the two. The federal government is the mafia. The parties are it's gangs. We are the sheep. Anyone who thinks we can change things by rubbing shoulders with the Republicans are kidding themselves.

There has to be a coup and hopefully this freedom group is just that. Or we all will be licking the black boots soon and dodging drones and government bullets.

[TheTexan]

I hope my post was not taken the wrong way. is pretty much a collapse of our current system... isn't it?

I would like nothing more than for this country to "collapse" into 50 states. Or 3000 county-states. Or 30,000 city-states. Or 313.9 million sovereign individuals.

Localization just means bringing the government closer to the governed. Which in every case is a good thing.


He makes a good point - but less than 1/10th of 1% of the population thinks like that - you need to operate in the reality of the masses to have any chance of getting anything done.

Nullification & Secession is making strong headway in recent years. And you don't have to convince "the masses" that it's the right decision. You don't have to ask their permission. You just do it.

[cbc58]

I will bow out of this discussion and honestly don't have the time or desire to fence with a banana. I could, but have no desire.

Anyone who thinks that votes don't matter any more and that we are too far gone has my sympathy. Apathy is a powerful thing.

[helmuth_hubener]

I will bow out of this discussion and honestly don't have the time or desire to fence with a banana. I could, but have no desire.

Anyone who thinks that votes don't matter any more and that we are too far gone has my sympathy. Apathy is a powerful thing.

Occam's is actually way nice. He just came off as more snippy than he really is.

[Occam's Banana]

I will bow out of this discussion and honestly don't have the time or desire to fence with a banana. I could, but have no desire.

I serously doubt that you could - given your repeated failure to grasp what I have actually said in favor of putting words in my mouth (see below, for example)


Anyone who thinks that votes don't matter any more and that we are too far gone has my sympathy. Apathy is a powerful thing.

I did not claim and do not believe that "we are too far gone." I am not the slightest bit "apathetic."

So save your sympathy - and your condescension - for some one else.

[Matthew5]

I haven't been keeping up with all the discussion, but I wouldn't imply that someone who has a huge Ben Swann "Truth in Media" banner in their signature would be apathetic. :p

[JK/SEA]

what do we do?...well, for starters, i'm going to immerse myself in the gay and abortion issues, and maybe, just maybe start a letter campaign.

[helmuth_hubener]

For them or against them(gays and abortion), JK?

[JK/SEA]

For them or against them(gays and abortion), JK?

mild sarcasm, but my true cause that brought me into the Ron Paul Revolution initially was Ron's foreign Policy, and war. I consider abortion and gay issues just issues, but i really don't think we should be putting these issues front and center. Abortion is murder, and gay people need defending.

[Matthew5]

Had a great convo with my brother tonight. Former neocon who is now awake...CISPA (pipa/sopa, all that jazz) is what really got him interested as a computer and programming expert. He's going down the rabbit hole, he sees the empire now. The NSA deal was icing on the cake for him. Now he's outraged by the TSA, NDAA, the war, the media, vote rigging, 9/11...I was pleasantly surprised. :D Guess my family BBQ rants finally paid off.

[Matthew5]

All that to say, people are waking up. And those that are capable of being added to the movement will do so before the SHTF, I believe. Are some too far gone? Maybe. Centuries of indoctrination and empire building are hard to overcome. Will we always be a minority? History seems to indicate such.

[Natural Citizen]

Live stream in a few minutes....

Former IRS Special Agent Joe Banister (http://www.freedomabovefortune.com/) joins John B. Wells to discuss the recent IRS scandal, and why he's spoken out against the fraudulent administration and enforcement of the federal income tax ever since being fired after confronting top IRS officials. In the first hour, political commentator Malcolm Out Loud (http://www.malcolmoutloud.tv/) will react to the NSA spying revelations.

http://www.newsradioklbj.com/Other/Stream.html