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zzzz8
06-09-2013, 04:54 PM
Hong Kong has a long tradition of political freedom. Witness the tradition of an annual vigil for Tianamen Square:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/06/04/china-tiananmen-square-anniversary.html

Unfortunately, Hong Kong is a semi autonomous region and the Chinese government has increasingly had a hand in the government in a back handed way even though it was supposed to have a 50 year period of independence... But hopefully, the folks in Hong Kong will step up for this "gweilo" (yeah, I know, some people may not like this term) and prevent extradition back to the U.S. on any criminal charges. It can be done if enough people in Hong Kong stand up, but I believe it's going to be an uphill fight.

enhanced_deficit
06-09-2013, 05:05 PM
From the look of things, people around the world are stepping over themselves to do that. While he will have some powerful distractors, he will also have many supporters.

RonPaulMall
06-09-2013, 05:13 PM
China's influence probably helps him more than hurts him. US bitches all the time about China persecuting political dissidents. They probably relish the PR opportunity of protecting a political dissident from the West. Worst case scenario he can always offer to "consult" for the Chinese Gov in exchange for asylum. Might be some sort of arrangement like that in place already in fact.

tangent4ronpaul
06-09-2013, 05:16 PM
The people in Hong Kong don't seem to know that he is there. Largely, PRISM isn't even in the local news.

There is a media blackout.

-t

Cdn_for_liberty
06-09-2013, 08:40 PM
The people in Hong Kong don't seem to know that he is there. Largely, PRISM isn't even in the local news.

There is a media blackout.

-t

South China Morning Post has an article of him but it's basically a repeat of what's been said by most western media, nothing from Hong Kong officials so far.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1257600/nsa-surveillance-whistle-blower-edward-snowden-hiding-hong-kong

bolil
06-09-2013, 09:09 PM
Unlikely because the people have nothing to do with it. Remember they don't have weapons, and without modern weapons all that is left is... verbal protests?

Hey, you, don't rape her, because it will make me unhappy if you do.

What am I going to do about it? Voice my displeasure, bitch, yeah DISPLEASURE!!

zzzz8
06-09-2013, 09:13 PM
Looks like it's finally getting picked up:

http://www.singtao.com/breakingnews/20130610a103848.asp
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/%E7%BE%8E%E7%9B%A3%E8%81%BD%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6%E6%B 4%A9%E5%AF%86%E8%80%85%E8%97%8F%E8%BA%AB%E9%A6%99% E6%B8%AF-023800487.html

zzzz8
06-09-2013, 09:20 PM
Unlikely because the people have nothing to do with it. Remember they don't have weapons, and without modern weapons all that is left is... verbal protests?

Hey, you, don't rape her, because it will make me unhappy if you do.

What am I going to do about it? Voice my displeasure, bitch, yeah DISPLEASURE!!

That's partially true. However, there is much that can be done, even without having access to weapons...

Carson
06-09-2013, 09:21 PM
I keep stumbling when I read the headline.

"I hope the people of Hong Kong will stand up for Edward Snowden"


Maybe it would read better?;

I hope the people of Hong Kong will stand up with Edward Snowden

zzzz8
06-09-2013, 09:27 PM
Yep, thanks Carson. Admins, could you update the headline?

bolil
06-09-2013, 09:28 PM
That's partially true. However, there is much that can be done, even without having access to weapons...

Yeah, okay, like whining?

RDM
06-09-2013, 09:30 PM
According to this article...Hong Kong is a pit stop.

The whistleblower who brought to light the secret U.S. surveillance program (http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/06/06/report-government-secretly-scooping-up-phone-records-of-millions-of-verizon-customers/)—collecting telephone data from millions of American citizens and Internet data from foreigners—has come forward. The Guardian and Washington Post revealed on Sunday that Edward Snowden was their source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance) for the massive leak U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) data. “I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong,” he told the Guardian.
Here are 10 things we know about Snowden so far:

1. He is 29 years old and grew up in Elizabeth City, North Carolina. He later moved to Maryland with his family, according to The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance), near NSA headquarters. Most recently, he lived in Hawaii with his girlfriend.
2. Snowden works for Booz Allen Hamilton, (http://www.boozallen.com/) a major American security contractor, as an infrastructure analyst for the NSA (http://www.nsa.gov/). In a brief statement (http://www.boozallen.com/media-center/press-releases/48399320/statement-reports-leaked-information-060913) with regards to the leaked files, the company wrote:
Booz Allen can confirm that Edward Snowden, 29, has been an employee of our firm for less than 3 months, assigned to a team in Hawaii. News reports that this individual has claimed to have leaked classified information are shocking, and if accurate, this action represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm. We will work closely with our clients and authorities in their investigation of this matter.

3. His was making a salary of roughly $200,000, according to various reports.
4. He is a former technical officer with the CIA, according to the Guardian. He also previously worked with Dell Inc.
5. He told the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/intelligence-leaders-push-back-on-leakers-media/2013/06/09/fff80160-d122-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story_2.html) that he does not have a high school diploma, but reports say he earned a GED.
6. He said he had “full access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all around the world.”
7. According to the Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/meet-edward-snowden-the-nsa-whistleblower/276688/), Snowden tried to join the U.S. Army Special Forces.
8. He didn’t vote for Obama in 2008. (He didn’t vote for John McCain either.) He told the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why) he voted for a third party, but didn’t say which one.
9. According to Campaignmoney.com, (http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/contributions/edward-snowden.asp?cycle=12) an Edward Snowden donated $500 to Ron Paul’s presidential bid in 2012. Ron Paul is a staunch libertarian who lost the nomination of the Republican Party in favour of Mitt Romney.


10. Snowden is seeking asylum, ideally in Iceland, but is now staying in Hong Kong. He is hoping to avoid extradition to the United States. In an interview over the course of several days with The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why), he said: “I think it is really tragic that an American has to move to a place that has a reputation for less freedom. Still, Hong Kong has a reputation for freedom in spite of the People’s Republic of China. It has a strong tradition of free speech.” http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/06/09/10-things-we-know-about-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden/

Mani
06-09-2013, 10:19 PM
It's not getting too much attention here yet.

I mentioned in an earlier thread, he was better off in China. IT's too late to go there now. He needs to apply for a Visa and needs to get to the border and be accepted to cross.

It's way too late for that now. HK is visa on arrival 90 days. I think the better plan would have been do the interview in HK after his Visa to China was completed (only takes a couple days), then cross the border after the interview. Too late. Although it's anybody's guess how he would have been treated there, that's a crap shoot.

Hong Kong will be civil and treat him nicely, but they are pretty chummy with USA, so I'm not sure he will have much luck out here.

nbruno322
06-09-2013, 10:19 PM
Snowden needs to get on the next train to mainland China if he values not living in a cage the rest of his life.

There is an extradition treaty between the US and Hong Kong, but NOT one between the US and China.

If he goes to China he can buy time and apply for asylum to another country, stay in China, or travel to another country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US.

zzzz8
06-09-2013, 10:19 PM
Yeah, okay, like whining?

Not everything requires you to have a gun immediately available to you in order to accomplish change. There have been many worldwide movements where average citizens didn't have ready access to weapons yet still accomplished much.

Obviously, it's doubtful that Hong Kong natives will do much for a person whose actions don't directly affect them. It would be difficult for me to imagine that thousands of people would protest in support of Snowden, but I could be proven wrong. That would at least apply some pressure on the HK legislative council and Leung to do something or make it more difficult for the extradition to go through.

ghengis86
06-09-2013, 10:25 PM
It's not getting too much attention here yet.

I mentioned in an earlier thread, he was better off in China. IT's too late to go there now. He needs to apply for a Visa and needs to get to the border and be accepted to cross.

It's way too late for that now. HK is visa on arrival 90 days. I think the better plan would have been do the interview in HK after his Visa to China was completed (only takes a couple days), then cross the border after the interview. Too late. Although it's anybody's guess how he would have been treated there, that's a crap shoot.

Hong Kong will be civil and treat him nicely, but they are pretty chummy with USA, so I'm not sure he will have much luck out here.

Who's to say he hasn't left HK already? He could have stipulated that the article be published after he's safe. But who knows...he could be in Guantanamo right now for all we know.

And of course everything Glenn does, says and e-mails is getting extra special attention, ironically - or then again maybe tragically - by the same programs he's blowing the lid on.

Craziness

zzzz8
06-09-2013, 10:28 PM
Hmm, seems like Macau does not have an extradition treaty with the U.S. That could be an option, especially because of its proximity to Hong Kong and Macau has autonomy similar to Hong Kong... Unfortunately, if he's still in Hong Kong, it'll probably be too late for him to go to Macau as the authorities, both U.S. and HK/Chinese, know where he is and it would be difficult for him to jump on a ship to Macau.

Mani
06-09-2013, 10:44 PM
Hmm, seems like Macau does not have an extradition treaty with the U.S. That could be an option, especially because of its proximity to Hong Kong and Macau has autonomy similar to Hong Kong... Unfortunately, if he's still in Hong Kong, it'll probably be too late for him to go to Macau as the authorities, both U.S. and HK/Chinese, know where he is and it would be difficult for him to jump on a ship to Macau.

Yes, Macau is a 1 hour ferry ride, also Visa on arrival, but too late for that.

I'm thinking maybe he didn't want to be a bargaining chip for China and handed over so easily.

It would have been super easy to be in China within an hour of doing that interview in Hong Kong (had he already done his visa a few days before). There's plenty of shady spots he could have holed himself in if that's what he wanted, but it seems he's not looking to hide.


As someone else mentioned, he could be in China right now for all we know, but his comments about NOT wanting to hide, make it sound like he's waiting out to see what the HK government is going to do. It seems this was a deliberate move.

RickyJ
06-09-2013, 11:00 PM
Wherever he goes he is a dead man and he should know that. He made the right move, but don't think for a second that they won't make an example out of him, they have to because they have many employees they must keep in line or there could be much bigger revelations than what he has revealed. He's a hero, but barring divine intervention, he won't live long.

Mani
06-09-2013, 11:04 PM
Wherever he goes he is a dead man and he should know that. He made the right move, but don't think for a second that they won't make an example out of him, they have to because they have many employees they must keep in line or there could be much bigger revelations than what this man has revealed. He's a hero, but barring divine intervention, he won't live long.

Oh for sure. All the other people who are working in security that are seeing things daily that are making them sick and want them to shout out and inform the people....are watching what's happening to Snowden.

They will make such an example of Snowden that all the other people will be compelled to close their mouths forever.

And then they will do their best to delete him from memory and scrub his digital existence online.

Constitutional Paulicy
06-10-2013, 02:15 AM
Snowden needs to get on the next train to mainland China if he values not living in a cage the rest of his life.

There is an extradition treaty between the US and Hong Kong, but NOT one between the US and China.

If he goes to China he can buy time and apply for asylum to another country, stay in China, or travel to another country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US.

He can always come here (Taiwan). It's a short flight from HK and he doesn't need to sweat it. Taiwan isn't recognized as a country so there is no extradition treaty. Much better than mainland China for sure.

Warlord
06-10-2013, 02:17 AM
The Chinese have a right to veto over extraditions. HK will do what its told on these matters by the CCP but not sure how this will go

twomp
06-10-2013, 02:24 AM
According to this, Hong Kong has the right to reject extradition if they felt that the request was "politically motivated" or that Snowden would be prosecuted for his political opinions.


As such, article 3 of the treaty allows the Chinese government to refuse surrendering a person if it thought the surrender "relates to (its) defense, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy".

Hong Kong can also refuse if the city or the mainalnd have begun proceedings for the prosecution of that person. Hong Kong can reject an application if the city felt that the request was "politically motivated" or that Snowden would be prosecuted for his political opinions.

Extradition requests can be made either through the US Consulate Generale in Hong Kong or Interpol, according to the treaty.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1257639/treaty-gives-hong-kong-option-reject-snowden-extradition-us

noneedtoaggress
06-10-2013, 02:34 AM
Oh for sure. All the other people who are working in security that are seeing things daily that are making them sick and want them to shout out and inform the people....are watching what's happening to Snowden.

They will make such an example of Snowden that all the other people will be compelled to close their mouths forever.

And then they will do their best to delete him from memory and scrub his digital existence online.

Except that such a high-profile whistleblower dying under questionable circumstances would likely fuel outrage in the US and serve to further the perception that the American Dream has become a Totalitarian Nightmare which seems to be increasingly becoming obvious by the week. They want to handle this in a way that will serve their interests without undermining them. Deep mistrust in their institutions is something they want to avoid because it doesn't help them continue to function. They're already in a PR crisis concerning American's trust right now.

edit: not saying that it's not an option though either. it's just not that simple.

That and there's a pretty big difference between intercepting people's data and "scrubbing" the internet. Mainly that the former is possible while the latter is not.

zzzz8
06-12-2013, 08:32 AM
Hong Kong march in support of Snowden:

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259265/hong-kong-march-support-edward-snowden-set-saturday

This is a nice start. However, I would caution everyone that people should set their expectations low and not expect too many people to show up. I would be pleasantly surprised if more than 100 people showed up.

zzzz8
06-15-2013, 01:47 AM
Protest is going on right now:

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1261433/live-updates-support-edward-snowden-rally-hong-kong

zzzz8
06-15-2013, 01:51 AM
Wow, 300 to 350 people in the rain. This is better than I expected, though I was secretly hoping (in my wildest dreams) that 1000 or more people would participate in the protest. But still, thanks to the people of Hong Kong! :D

Warlord
06-15-2013, 02:11 AM
According to this, Hong Kong has the right to reject extradition if they felt that the request was "politically motivated" or that Snowden would be prosecuted for his political opinions.



When you've got the Speaker of the House (number 3 in the fascist government) calling you a traitor (treason is punishable by death) on TV along with Feinstein, Pelosi and the rest of the gang then it's hard not to see how a judge in a common law jurisdiction with an extradition treaty that sets a reasonably high bar can reject political asylum. And even if a judge does agree to extradite then the Politburo of the Communist Party of China have got a veto and may use it if there's enough pressure/public sympathy. Snowden has been very smart in his choice.

UWDude
06-15-2013, 03:28 AM
I hope Snowden isn't in Hong Kong, and never was. I hope that is one way he and Greenwald are keeping each other safe.
I hope he learned the art of deception before he began, and have no doubts he did.
I hope he learned that when he set up his interview, he made the room look like it was a hotel he loved, and had pictures of, but actually was in a hotel in Sacramento or something.
I hope this kid is really, really smart.
I don't doubt he is.

I wonder if he can hide future time capsules. By storing files in randomly named and encrypted folders online at data dumps, and then having some kind of program that will kick a website into gear that fires up, and starts sending out emails to international press contacts, letting them know where to find the files, and the passwords to them.

That way, every couple of months or so, a new revelation can be made. And only he can stop them.

It makes the NSA very eager to capture him alive, but knowing that if they kill him, that there is no chance their secrets will be safe, and all the world will have access to 400 terabytes of top secret information... friend and enemy.

How's it feel, NSA? How does it feel to know the world... ...has access to records of you?
Not so fun when somebody has control of everything you wrote while believing it was private, is it, NSA spook?