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tsai3904
06-08-2013, 09:31 AM
My city signed an agreement with our firefighter's union to give their members $7,500 raises in pay and benefits. I looked into how much my city's firefighters make and I am really stunned.

My city has 120 total firefighters, fire engineers, fire captains and battalion chiefs.

It looks like the starting salary is $90,000. The average base salary in 2012 was $107,000. The average overtime pay was $31,000.

The average total pay, including health benefits and pension contributions, was $212,000 and now they are getting an additional $7,500 next year and $4,000 the year after.

How does this compare to other cities? Can people tell me what their firefighters make? I think most cities post this information online. I found mine in the Human Resources Department on the city website.

tod evans
06-08-2013, 09:41 AM
We have volunteers who stand roadside with a boot twice a year and hold pancake breakfasts...

surf
06-08-2013, 10:12 AM
how dare you ask this question! these guys are running into burning buildings while you're running out!

edit: and that's why they have these massive pensions

MelissaWV
06-08-2013, 10:37 AM
We have volunteers who stand roadside with a boot twice a year and hold pancake breakfasts...

We do have a few volunteer companies, but probably more salaried/paid firefighters than not. Considering some of the nastiness in this area (a fair number of prairie fires that encroach upon roads and homes every single year, plus the usual city calls, plus the car accident type calls) I am not annoyed that they are paid. I am annoyed that they are paid by stealing from me. I would gladly fund them voluntarily... and at higher rates.


Average is $35,000 for all jobs matching my search.

Lead Firefighter $45,000
Firefighter EMT $35,000
Reserve Firefighter $22,000
Supervisory Firefighter $53,000
Firefighter $36,000
Wildland Firefighter $25,000
Fire Engineer $51,000
Firefighter Paramedic $43,000
Firefighter Medic $33,000
Certified Firefighter $32,000
Probationary Firefighter $43,000
Airport Firefighter $34,000
Firefighter Recruit $35,000
Lead Wildland Firefighter $31,000
Paramedic Firefighter $26,000

...from Indeed.com so it's not really a great poll, but gives a general idea. Certainly nowhere near 6-digit income.

tsai3904
06-08-2013, 10:48 AM
...from Indeed.com so it's not really a great poll, but gives a general idea. Certainly nowhere near 6-digit income.

Are those for full time positions?

tod evans
06-08-2013, 11:01 AM
Are those for full time positions?

Where I live we can't afford to pay groups of people to sit around and wait for an emergency so all of us chip in our expertise and take care of our own fire protection.

And ya' want to know something?

I'm willing to bet that very few cities are footing the bill for some of the salaries/pensions I see bantered around...

It's more of this free fed money that gets printed out of thin air either directly or indirectly....

MelissaWV
06-08-2013, 11:02 AM
Are those for full time positions?

Yes.

Full disclosure, though: the area I live is not exactly a bastion of excellent jobs outside of healthcare and higher education.


Median household income definition and source info Median household income, 2007-2011 $41,373

So I guess it would be more accurate to compare by saying that the firefighter positions listed make about the median income level for this area (latest info I could find was through 2011 and I am certain median income has gone down a bit). You can live off of that here just fine, but it is not going to get you rich, not even as a supervisor.

To get rich here, you can become a tenured professor, a specialist at the big hospital, or a high-end supervisor at a business associated with the hospital/university. Even then you have to take your student loan burden into account.

gwax23
06-08-2013, 11:09 AM
Even my towns volunteer firefighters get way more than they need. This town has like 4 different firehouses. The towns next to us have similar ammounts. Its way to big. They have top of the line facilities and huge ever growing budgets. They dont do anything but have barbecues. Its a waste of money/

ronpaulfollower999
06-08-2013, 11:17 AM
Starting salary is about $41k, but we also have volunteer.

The bloated expenses in my county come from the school district. Not so much the teachers....more like the administrators and stupid crap that's not useful.

tsai3904
06-08-2013, 11:26 AM
So I guess it would be more accurate to compare by saying that the firefighter positions listed make about the median income level for this area (latest info I could find was through 2011 and I am certain median income has gone down a bit).

That's a good comparison. The median income for males in my city is about $60k so a firefighter's average base salary of $107k is definitely not comparable.

phill4paul
06-08-2013, 11:37 AM
The firefighters in the city make about the same as the median income. Between $35k and $40k.

Matt Collins
06-08-2013, 12:23 PM
What city do you live in?

kcchiefs6465
06-08-2013, 12:24 PM
What city do you live in?
Lol.. I should ask the same thing.

Part of me sees a career change in my future.

tsai3904
06-08-2013, 02:13 PM
What city do you live in?

Fremont, CA near Silicon Valley

Warlord
06-08-2013, 02:49 PM
They're bankrupting your city tsai, along with all the other CA public sector workers on six figures.

Weston White
06-08-2013, 05:11 PM
Here is an excerpt of a section from a 23-page report I submitted to my local city representatives, and newspaper (Fresno Bee) here in Fresno, CA back in 2011 when the City of Fresno began toting notions of forced austerity (to date I received only a single canned response from a then newly elected city council member):


ACCOUNTING FOR FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

As of 2009, approximate figures conclude the following data:

1. The City of Fresno has a total of 541 personnel working in a managerial or supervisory capacity over the city‘s 2,732 subordinate employees. This indicates that there is approximately one (1) superior to every five (5) subordinates!

i. Approximately eighty-nine (89) managers and supervisors make $100,000 or more in annual salary. Totaling: ~$8,900,000.00 annually.

ii. Approximately one-hundred-ninety-nine (199) managers and supervisors make between $90,000 and $99,999 in annual salary. Totaling: ~$17,910,000.00 annually.

iii. Approximately fifty-nine (59) managers and supervisors make between $80,000 and $89,000 in annual salary. Totaling: ~$4,720,000.00 annually.

iv. Approximately sixty-eight (68) managers and supervisors make between $70,000-$79,000 in annual salary. Totaling: ~$4,760,000.00 annually.

v. Approximately 126 managers and supervisors make below $69,999 in annual salary. Totaling: ~$7,560,000.00 annually.

Approximate costs annually for City of Fresno managers and supervisors:





89
$100,000
~$8,900,000.00


415
199
$90,000
~$17,910,000.00



59
$80,000
~$4,720,000.00


126
126
$60,000
~$7,560,000.00


* The above figures are all lowball within each relative salary bracket.

Approximate Annual Gross Total: ~$43,850,000.00


2. Annually, Fresno‘s seven (7) council members along with their assistant staff of fifteen (15), cost Fresno taxpayers roughly: $1,319,847.00 (for Council Members: $465,299.00 and Council Assistants: $815,760.00.)

3. Approximately one-hundred-forty (140) managers and supervisors are responsible for or oversee less than three (3) subordinates.

i. In some instances it is potentially the case that there are managers and supervisors overseeing zero (0) subordinates.

4. The data provided by the City of Fresno, verifies that the smaller salaried managers and supervisors are likely to be responsible to or for overseeing a larger number of subordinates.

In consideration of the above information, the following is a breakdown along with an as agreeable as is reasonable fix:




Number of Positions
Revenue Earned
Summary Expenses


89
$100,000
~$8,900,000.00


199
$90,000
~$17,910,000.00


59
$80,000
~$4,720,000.00



Total: ~$31,530,000.00


Simply stated, it would be just and prudent to call for the reduction in the pay of all managers and supervisors earning more than $79,999 by a global percentage, e.g., 12% (an additional option would be a stepped or incremental increase of x% for every $x,xxx.xx, etc.) for example:
If a manager or supervisor earns $100,000 or more reduce pay by 12%; starting base is at -$12,000.00++.

Revised salary is: $88,000++
Revised salaries sum (89*$88,000.00): ~$7,832,000.00
Budgetary reduction ($8,900,000.00-$7,832,000.00): $1,068,000.00

If a manager or supervisor earns $90,000-$99,999 reduce pay by 12%; starting base is at -$10,800.00 – $12,000.00.

Revised salary is: $79,200-$87,999
Revised salaries sum (199*$79,200.00): ~$15,760,800.00
Budgetary reduction ($17,910,000.00-$15,760,800.00): $2,149,200.00

If a manager or supervisor earns $80,000-$89,999 reduce pay by 12%; starting base is at -$9,600.00 – $10,800.00.

Revised salary is: $70,400-$79,200
Revised salaries sum (59*$70,400.00): ~$4,153,600.00
Budgetary reduction ($4,720,000.00-$4,153,600.00): $566,400.00




Present total
~$31,530,000.00


Revised total
~$27,746,400.00


Total approximated gain realized
~$3,783,600.00




Of course also keeping in mind that the above data only accounts for 347 of the presumed 541 management/supervisory positions, which indicates that there are still 194 such positions earning from approximately $53,808-$79,999. Thus, it might be better to impose upon these lower paid managers and supervisors, meaning those earning less than $80,000, a fixed reduction in pay of $5,000.00 annually, for example. This would realize the City of Fresno an additional budgetary gain of $970,000.00, thereby raising the total saved annually to: $4,753,600.00.

However, there may need to be an additional phase-in adjustment implemented for those managers and supervisors earning between $75,000-$79,999, so as to prevent them from now earning more than those managers and supervisors who were originally earning more prior to the proposed reductions in their salary, e.g., such managers and supervisors could receive an additional reduction in pay (of whatever amount is required) so as to adjust their revised revenue to just below $70,400 (supra.) As well a cutoff amount may be required to prevent the revised amounts from receding too low, thereby resulting in having certain managers and supervisors thereafter earning less than their subordinate employees.

If a manager or supervisor earns $53,808-$79,999 reduce pay by $5,000.00:

Revised salary is: $48,808-$74,999
Revised salaries sum (194*48,808.00): ~$9,468,752.00
Budgetary reduction ($10,438,752.00-$9,468,752.00): $970,000.00





Total Positions
Number of Positions
Revenue Earned
Summary Expenses



89
$100,000
~$8,900,000.00


347
199
$90,000
~$17,910,000.00



59
$80,000
~$4,720,000.00


194
194
$53,808
~$10,438,752.00



Present total: ~$41,968,752.00
Revised total (after suggested reductions): ~$37,215,152.00
Total approximated gain realized: ~$4,753,600.00


Also highly noteworthy is the following (these are approximations):

1. Presently there are approximately 797 total employees working within the Fresno Police Department as armed and sworn law enforcement personnel.

i. Within the Fresno Police Department, respectively, there are 629-Police Officers, of those there are about 130 that make from 100,000.00 upwards to $178,924.00 and the remaining 499 police Officers make between $57,000-$100,000 (the majority of which are in the $70,000.00++ pay range); establishing a ratio of 157.3 Police Officers for each of the four policing districts in Fresno. The national medium for police officer pay is $50,000.00 and within California is $52,000.00; the national top 90th percentile is $67,000.00.

ii. Annually within the Fresno Police Department there are presently 13-Police Specialists making between $95,000-$103,000 for a total of:$1,280,347.00.

iii. Within the Fresno Police Department there are approximately 90-Police Sergeants, 88 of them annually make between $100,000-$166,000 for an approximate cost of: 9-million Dollars each year; establishing a ratio of 22.5 Sergeants for each of the four policing districts in Fresno. The national medium for police sergeant pay is $63,814.00 and within California is $76,000.00; the national top 90th percentile is $78,427.00.

iv. In consideration of only Police Officers and Police Sergeants, totaling 719 law enforcing individuals and a respective population of 505,479 residents, the national average of full-time law enforcement personnel per 1,000 in population is 3:1; Fresno presently holds a ratio of 1.42:1.

v. Also annually within the Fresno Police Department:
Together 18-Lieutenants cost the City of Fresno: $2,382,330.00;
8-Captains carry an approximate price tag of: $1,221,510.00;
4-Deputy Chiefs rake in a nifty sum of: $687,190.00; and
1-Police Chief nets a super-sweet: $210,767.00.
vi. The aggregate of the above data indicates that Fresno is heavily overpaying for such services, while both overworking its personnel and under-serving its population.

2. Excluding two (2) Management Analysts III, one (1) Executive Assistant to Department Director, and one (1) Principal Account Clerk (for a combined total of: $265,129.00) the remaining 30-employees of the City of Fresno Attorney‘s Office annually costs taxpayers: $2,563,411.00.
* The above also excludes the many private law firms the City of Fresno has on retainer or holds contracts with.

3. Four (4) employees working within the City of Fresno Clerk‘s Office annually cost: $260,151.00.

4. Eleven (11) employees of the City of Fresno Manager's Office, excluding one (1) Management Analyst II, two (2) Executive Assistants to Department Director, and a Deputy City Manager—as two (2) positions are listed for 2009— (for a total of $251,129.00) annually cost: $849,337.00.

5. Excluding two (2) Council Assistant positions (for a total of $122,381.00) the two (2) remaining employees serving the City of Fresno Mayor‘s Office annually cost: $234,088.00.

6. There are approximately 368 emergency response personnel assigned to the Fresno Fire Department working at any of roughly 20-fire stations located throughout the City of Fresno. The City of Fresno presently holds a population density of 4,097.9 individuals per square mile with a total of 104.4 squared miles over land, additionally indicating that, respectively, there is one (1) fire station positioned every 5.22 squared miles designated to provide service for approximately 21,391 individuals.

i. 109-Firefighters annually make from $65,000-$99,000 (the majority of which are in the $70,000.00++ pay range); establishing a ratio of 5.5 Firefighters to every one (1) fire station. The national medium for firefighter pay is $41,225.00 and within California is $47,000.00; the national top 90th percentile is $60,916.00.

ii. There are 104-Firefighter Specialists annually making from $74,000-$117,000 of which 38 make more than $100,000.00; establishing a ratio of 5.2 Firefighter Specialists to every one (1) fire station.

iii. Approximately 92-Fire Captains are annually making between $83,000-$133,000 of which 80 make $100,000.00 or more; establishing a ratio of 4.6 Fire Captains to every one (1) fire station.

iv. Annually a single Fire Investigation Unit Supervisor costs: $125,684.00.

v. 11-Fire Battalion Chiefs make from between $105,000-$161,000 for an approximate annual total of: $1,568,699.00.

vi. 3-Fire Deputy Chiefs annually make from $156,000-$160,000 for a combined total of: $473,684.00.

vii. The Fire Chief for the Fresno Fire Department annually takes in: $166,982.00.

viii. One (1) Fire Prevention Engineer, two (2) Supervising Fire Prevention Inspectors, four (4) Senior Fire Prevention Inspectors, and nine (9) Fire Prevention Inspector II‘ hold an annual price tag of: $1,034,807.00.

ix. The aggregate of the above data indicates that Fresno is heavily overpaying for such services, while both overworking its personnel and under-serving its population.

* With additional consideration to the approximate 1,100 police and fire personnel working within the City of Fresno, it is worthy to note that if an across the board reduction in salaries of $5,000.00 were to be agreed upon, this would result in an approximate annual gain for Fresno of: $5,500,000.00; or as an alternative (presuming an average salary of $75,000.00), in implementing a 12% across the board pay reduction would realize our City an annual gain of: ~$9,900,000.00, (to further note in implementing an incrementally stepped or percentage reduction plan, an even greater annual sum of savings could be realized.) Again, keeping in mind that, respectively, the average earnings for both Fresno‘s police and fire personnel is 50-percent higher than either the state or national median salary for law enforcement and first responder occupations.

NOTE: In furthering the City of Fresno's rampant penchant for succumbing to nepotism, since the writing of report, Fresno's City Hall (along with its City Manager), has since hired the Fresno Fire Chief's wife, Beth Brown (under the creation of a brand new position) as its new Civilian Emergency Manager, with a salary of around $70,000, plus whatever executive perks.

* Also since this writing there was a big scandal with Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer, he was all set to retire after having entered DROP/COBRA (or whatever it's called) and the rates substantially decreasing, and instead the city arranged for him to remain as its chief of police by rehiring him at a slight pay increase (of about $10,000) plus an annual bonus of $20,000 so long as his annual evaluation report is good or better (which obviously is a given)—so effectively he is grossing about a quarter-million dollars each year.

anaconda
06-08-2013, 05:18 PM
$100K+ for Union city, CA - about 20 miles south of Oakland (and this is a 2007 story).

http://www.insidebayarea.com/argus/ci_7222696

Jackie Moon
06-09-2013, 01:49 AM
Portland, OR data from 2009

Including pay and benefits, the highest was $151,947.

There were 116 more that were above $100,000 and another 200+ that made between $80,000 and $100,000.

Those are listings for basic "fire fighter". There were 13 Battalion Chiefs and 30 Fire Captains that made $150,000 and over 100 Fire Lieutenants that made about $125,000 each.

There are even more listings for other positions, all averaging over $120,000, but I gave up counting.

Warlord
06-09-2013, 02:57 AM
The public sector fat cats on six figures+ in CA is rampant and responsible for bankrupting the cities, counties and eventually the state.

They really need to figure this out and not let any bureaucrat, law enforcement or public official earn more than average salary or comparable salary for a manager in the private sector. Of course they always have an excuse like "cost of living is more expensive here" or "we need to attract the best candidates".

Btw, many of the figures will not include the undefined pensions these guys get which you cannot get in the private sector unless you have millions of dollars to buy one. That is a huge part of the problem

Weston White
06-14-2013, 06:29 AM
Well what a kawinkydink: Fresno Fire Chief J. Robert Brown arrested, released from jail (http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=9136895)

Grubb556
06-14-2013, 06:57 AM
Considering buildings are being made to be less fire prone (either through law or voluntarily), it would seem we need less firefighters, not more.

KEEF
06-14-2013, 07:03 AM
Mine make $9.11/hour.... ba dump chink.

satchelmcqueen
06-14-2013, 07:39 AM
about $40k here to start. but they should make 1000 times more since theyre all heros and formed a human shield around the new 911 buildings to thwart off the ben lauden (uncle ben) planes. and my ex wife was one of them as well. the whore version.....

Ender
06-14-2013, 10:56 AM
I work with several firefighters and they are decent hardworking men. I have no problem with them getting a good salary.

I say get rid of the rest of the city/county "employees"- from mayor to police- and keep the firefighters.

Win/win all around. ;)

Nirvikalpa
06-14-2013, 11:03 AM
Mine make 90k/year to start, and 110k after 2 years. There are fireEMTs that are just responsible for riding in the ambulance opposed to the fire rigs, and they earn their money (14-16 medical calls per day, and they're on 24-36 hour shifts)... the ones sitting in the offices, and those who sit around waiting for the fire calls, not so much. In NJ, all firemen are EMTs but not all EMTs are fireEMTs.

Some background on my town's fire co: they are supposed to respond to mass casualty incidents in NYC (like 9/11, we lost a few firemen from my engine co. there), and they are more heavily trained in oil refinery accidents (we have Phillips 66/Bayway Refinery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayway_Refinery) right here), as are the EMTs that work in the general area (I am an EMT for P66). The firemen that are hired privately by P66 and know everything there is to know about the chemicals there are hired at around $65k/year to start (I believe).

If I had to choose, I would still rather my money go to them and not the cops who sit in their cars "guarding" electricians working on poles for $120/hr. I like the firemen, despite them taking my job (private ambulance corps was asked to only take secondary calls throughout the week and as a non-profit that was not enough to sustain us, so we were forced to close and all of us were laid off). I do not like the cops.