View Full Version : And here is the problem with a lot of Americans...
nodeal
06-07-2013, 11:22 AM
This is how one of my associates views this whole FISA/Verizon scandal...
"ohhh scary, they will now know you called your mom at 8:36 pm on 6/5/13 from your house! how dare they. In my opinion, unless your up to some shady shit and planning a terrorist attack, i dont see anything wrong with releasing this information."
This is how people think. I'm sure this person isn't alone. The government is going to keep getting away with these things until people wake up. How do you even reason with this point of view?
fisharmor
06-07-2013, 11:44 AM
How do you even reason with this point of view?
Reason?
More than 9 out of 10 people in this country get 13 years straight of conditioning designed to shut down the parts of the brain you're trying to engage.
The ones that get any sort of higher education aren't likely to get any sort of critical thinking skills out if it either. The only reason I took any sort of formal logic in college was because I was studying IT and it was an elective that I could count toward a degree. I could just as easily have taken sociology or anthropology and fulfilled that credit.
Maybe you'll be lucky enough to run into one of the 1% of the population capable of accepting premises and forming valid conclusions based on them. Then your chances are greater than 10% that that person has given the AC argument more than an ignorant cuff on the ear, in which case you're probably the one arguing for tyranny.
VIDEODROME
06-07-2013, 12:02 PM
The thing is you don't have to have a reason. They just have to think you're up to something based on gathering flimsy evidence with a ridiculous computerized dragnet.
If they're spying on you, they might create a database of your typical phone behavior. Then if you make an unusual phone call time at 3am out of the ordinary the system will flag it.
Anti Federalist
06-07-2013, 12:05 PM
This is how one of my associates views this whole FISA/Verizon scandal...
"ohhh scary, they will now know you called your mom at 8:36 pm on 6/5/13 from your house! how dare they. In my opinion, unless your up to some shady shit and planning a terrorist attack, i dont see anything wrong with releasing this information."
This is how people think. I'm sure this person isn't alone. The government is going to keep getting away with these things until people wake up. How do you even reason with this point of view?
How about:
It is none of your fucking business who the fuck I call, when or for what reason!
angelatc
06-07-2013, 12:07 PM
This is how one of my associates views this whole FISA/Verizon scandal...
"ohhh scary, they will now know you called your mom at 8:36 pm on 6/5/13 from your house! how dare they. In my opinion, unless your up to some shady shit and planning a terrorist attack, i dont see anything wrong with releasing this information."
This is how people think. I'm sure this person isn't alone. The government is going to keep getting away with these things until people wake up. How do you even reason with this point of view?
What's the political leanings of your friend? If they're a neocon, then there's not much you can do. It they're a liberal, point out that the money the government is wasting on this could be used for the children.
VIDEODROME
06-07-2013, 12:21 PM
Hire a private investigator to follow them around and see how they like it lol.
fisharmor
06-07-2013, 12:34 PM
Hire a private investigator to follow them around and see how they like it lol.
This works best if you pay the PI with money you stole from the subject in the first place.
TonySutton
06-07-2013, 12:38 PM
This is how one of my associates views this whole FISA/Verizon scandal...
"ohhh scary, they will now know you called your mom at 8:36 pm on 6/5/13 from your house! how dare they. In my opinion, unless your up to some shady shit and planning a terrorist attack, i dont see anything wrong with releasing this information."
This is how people think. I'm sure this person isn't alone. The government is going to keep getting away with these things until people wake up. How do you even reason with this point of view?
My typical response is to ask them if I can see their phone and then start looking around in it until they get annoyed/creeped out and then when they object I ask them if they have anything to hide.
limequat
06-07-2013, 12:52 PM
My typical response is to ask them if I can see their phone and then start looking around in it until they get annoyed/creeped out and then when they object I ask them if they have anything to hide.
winner +rep
limequat
06-07-2013, 12:54 PM
EVERYBODY has something they don't want in the open. We find out about it when they become politicians
Drug use? Mistress? Gambling problem?
Got nothing to hide? Can I see your underwear?
MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-07-2013, 01:15 PM
EVERYBODY has something they don't want in the open. We find out about it when they become politicians
Drug use? Mistress? Gambling problem?
Got nothing to hide? Can I see your underwear?
I'm gonna start wearing my underwear on the outside of my pants, I guess.
VIDEODROME
06-07-2013, 01:17 PM
Yeah that's it Hack their phone.
and Hack their Facebook
Shoulder suft them all the time at the computer.
How do you even reason with this point of view?
You say, "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then don't I have an even greater cause to be left alone?"
emazur
06-07-2013, 01:43 PM
Here's how to counter the old "I have nothing to hide" argument:
The people watching over you make mistakes in their investigations (spying, in this case) and can draw the wrong conclusions. There is also the possibility that they are simply corrupt and/or have quotas to meet. Also, you may have nothing to hide what it comes to what your overseers were originally looking for, but what if you have unknowingly broken the law in some other area and they catch it when doing their investigations (spying)?
Questions for those who have "nothing to hide":
1) If you have nothing to hide, would you welcome an IRS audit every year?
2) If you have nothing to hide and consider yourself a law abiding citizen, would you welcome traffic cams being installed at every STOP sign that will send you a letter with a fine even if you accidentally missed the sign and ran through it?
bunklocoempire
06-07-2013, 01:52 PM
"ohhh scary, they will now know you called your mom at 8:36 pm on 6/5/13 from your house! how dare they. In my opinion, unless your up to some shady shit and planning a terrorist attack, i dont see anything wrong with releasing this information."
If privacy is outlawed only criminals will have privacy. How come government doesn't let you listen to THEIR communications? And why haven't you volunteered your information before the government took it from you? What were you hiding anyway? What else doesn't government know about you? Let's get over to Costco and pick up some surveillance cameras for the rooms in your house. You got nothing to hide right? Why do you want to be a pussy and only do this half-assed? Don't you want to be safe? Don't you believe your own theories?
kahless
06-07-2013, 01:53 PM
Ask the person what difference does it make whether it is a wire tap on your phone or one under your kitchen table. If you are fine with the tap on your phone then you should have no problem with having your house wired.
FSP-Rebel
06-07-2013, 02:59 PM
2) If you have nothing to hide and consider yourself a law abiding citizen, would you welcome traffic cams being installed at every STOP sign that will send you a letter with a fine even if you accidentally missed the sign and ran through it?
Good points. Let me expand on the last one in that technically one isn't making a complete stop unless they stop and the car rolls back then proceeds forward.
jtstellar
06-07-2013, 07:02 PM
This is how one of my associates views this whole FISA/Verizon scandal...
"ohhh scary, they will now know you called your mom at 8:36 pm on 6/5/13 from your house! how dare they. In my opinion, unless your up to some shady shit and planning a terrorist attack, i dont see anything wrong with releasing this information."
how old is he
Christian Liberty
06-07-2013, 07:31 PM
Then your chances are greater than 10% that that person has given the AC argument more than an ignorant cuff on the ear, in which case you're probably the one arguing for tyranny.
Are you saying minarchists support tyranny? Sorry, but that's just absurd, and that coming from the guy who has compared trying to pick between Romney and Obama to trying to pick between Hitler and Stalin...
donnay
06-07-2013, 08:00 PM
Government is suppose to be transparent and limited! Yet the reason they get away with murder, extortion and most corruption is, "It's a National Security Issue" move along, nothing to see here. The foxes are guarding the hen houses and we are the bloody hens!
heavenlyboy34
06-07-2013, 08:08 PM
Here's how to counter the old "I have nothing to hide" argument:
The people watching over you make mistakes in their investigations (spying, in this case) and can draw the wrong conclusions. There is also the possibility that they are simply corrupt and/or have quotas to meet. Also, you may have nothing to hide what it comes to what your overseers were originally looking for, but what if you have unknowingly broken the law in some other area and they catch it when doing their investigations (spying)?
Questions for those who have "nothing to hide":
1) If you have nothing to hide, would you welcome an IRS audit every year?
2) If you have nothing to hide and consider yourself a law abiding citizen, would you welcome traffic cams being installed at every STOP sign that will send you a letter with a fine even if you accidentally missed the sign and ran through it?
3) If you have nothing to hide, put live cameras in every room of your house and broadcast 24/7 on teh interwebz
;)
heavenlyboy34
06-07-2013, 08:10 PM
Are you saying minarchists support tyranny? Sorry, but that's just absurd, and that coming from the guy who has compared trying to pick between Romney and Obama to trying to pick between Hitler and Stalin...
In practice, they do. Trying to be "a little bit statist" strikes me as VERY similar to trying to be "a little bit pregnant". ;)
HOLLYWOOD
06-07-2013, 08:39 PM
The second the Government knows everything about you, that information will be used against you. Doesn't matter, could be anything private, could be anything legal too.
If you decent or don't comply, or even disagree with the current regime in power... Big Brother can set you up, make your life miserable and ineffective opposition, and even put you behind bars for life. To the point that not only are the rights gone, but all voices are gone, regardless of view. The state creates a society of distrust, a society of fear, a society that only complies with everything Big Brother orders from their untouchable granite and bronze Imperial palaces.
Government has used this policies to even squelch politicians or even resign when they have "DIRT" on someone.
The Founding Fathers warned US all, throughout history, all government's eventually take the path of tyranny.
kcchiefs6465
06-07-2013, 08:47 PM
The second the Government knows everything about you, that information will be used against you. Doesn't matter, could be anything private, could be anything legal too.
If you decent or don't comply, or even disagree with the current regime in power... Big Brother can set you up, make your life miserable and ineffective opposition, and even put you behind bars for life. To the point that not only are the rights gone, but all voices are gone, regardless of view. The state creates a society of distrust, a society of fear, a society that only complies with everything Big Brother orders from their untouchable granite and bronze Imperial palaces.
Government has used this policies to even squelch politicians or even resign when they have "DIRT" on someone.
The Founding Fathers warned US all, throughout history, all government's eventual to the path of tyranny.
Sounds Orwellian.
HOLLYWOOD
06-07-2013, 09:01 PM
Sounds Orwellian.Yeah, think about the average citizen may possibly commit 3 felonies a day. Add that to the BS rubber stamping JUST-US system taken from the Roland Freisler Nazi judicial system, then government spying, taken from Himmler's Gestapo Geheime Staatspolizei, and knowing everything about you, there you have it... 1984.
Only only think left free in America is for the government to rule & run over you like a Wonderbread Truck.
Weston White
06-07-2013, 09:03 PM
If they right to privacy is so moot, then why: (A) was it not specially enumerated as a federally regulated power in the Constitution above that of the several States and (B) had it been included as a specifically IMMUTABLE right within our Bill of Rights?
Wireless concerns:
1. All new cell-phones ping their LAT/LONG from local towers back to the wireless carrier (i.e., notice how law enforcement agencies are more and more locating the whereabouts of murders within the first couple of hours).
2. Government access to your cell-phone activities, apps, including your mobile Internet browsing is possible (just like accessing your HDD system files on your home PC).
3. Called or called-by a terrorist by mistake (a misdial)? Congratulations, you just made the no-fly and no-gun-buy lists; and oh yea, your home just got secretly raided by the FBI.
4. Data that is being mined from your cell-phone, banking, credit card records (including your purchase habits and life travel pattern), and cable viewing habits will eventually be used to psychology profile you in ways that were in the past both unimaginable and unconscionable; and unless we head all of this off now your very own government will have both instant and real-time access to all of it.
5. Got a secret FWB or crush your spouse is not aware of, how about a gay lover, like to cross-dress on the weekends, visit the local adult store for new toys, like to call your local drug connection to score some marijuana, remember that covert visit to the links you made while on worker’s comp, conspiring with your employer’s competition., working with a secret source to break a huge news story, make a vacation spot detour during a paid business trip? And now you’re thinking about speaking out against somebody in government? (Well, if you want to see just how fast and furious life as you knew it will get destroyed, then go ahead, I dare you.)
kcchiefs6465
06-07-2013, 09:17 PM
The is a multimillion dollar untapped (literally, untapped) market available.
How about some solutions?
Tech people, people who specialize in surveillance and counter-surveillance..
Privacy is something that the American people would want. A p2p app or program would be a game changer.
I am not advocating anyone break the laws, let's be clear. I am also ignorant of the exact laws in place. Perhaps I should add a lawyer to the list of people needed for this lucrative business model.
I am putting this out there for the sake of freedom. (and partly because I have no idea how to implement it, myself) It can be done. There is a market. The compensation would be great. It's inviting a lot of fed scrutiny though and you may end up going the route of Julian Assange.
The is a multimillion dollar untapped (literally, untapped) market available.
How about some solutions?
Tech people, people who specialize in surveillance and counter-surveillance..
Privacy is something that the American people would want. A p2p app or program would be a game changer.
I am not advocating anyone break the laws, let's be clear. I am also ignorant of the exact laws in place. Perhaps I should add a lawyer to the list of people needed for this lucrative business model.
I am putting this out there for the sake of freedom. (and partly because I have no idea how to implement it, myself) It can be done. There is a market. The compensation would be great. It's inviting a lot of fed scrutiny though and you may end up going the route of Julian Assange.
I know how to implement it, but the concerns I have with it:
- people will have to be convinced this is something better than what they have, when they are happy with what they are using now. These people would be the bulk of the userbase, and it is hard as hell to get them to switch.
- when they do switch, the infrastructure must already be in place. This means running servers that may go unused for an indeterminate number of months. This is why telecom providers love service contracts, and even on a non-contract plan, they make it hard to pay without setting up recurring billing. The general model for a web app or site is to start with the smallest amount of resources and grow as needed. This setup cannot work like that, because when it comes to communication, even the slightest hiccup can send the user back to where they came from (again, the service contracts).
- the money it would cost to take care of the above ^^
kcchiefs6465
06-07-2013, 10:37 PM
I know how to implement it, but the concerns I have with it:
- people will have to be convinced this is something better than what they have, when they are happy with what they are using now. These people would be the bulk of the userbase, and it is hard as hell to get them to switch.
- when they do switch, the infrastructure must already be in place. This means running servers that may go unused for an indeterminate number of months. This is why telecom providers love service contracts, and even on a non-contract plan, they make it hard to pay without setting up recurring billing. The general model for a web app or site is to start with the smallest amount of resources and grow as needed. This setup cannot work like that, because when it comes to communication, even the slightest hiccup can send the user back to where they came from (again, the service contracts).
- the money it would cost to take care of the above ^^
As to the first, PRISM breaking light will help. Many people are plain disgusted as is. They hear a few stories, they'd want something guaranteed untappable. (whether they were doing something against the current thousands of laws or not) That would be who should be catered to.
The media campaign would have to be massive. TPB, Mega, social media, everywhere. It would have to look legitimate. (along with the fact of being legitimate in the service offered) Some people might be turned off if it doesn't look professional. (it would grow, especially in the years to come)
I have no idea how to gain the money needed. I would like to think some businessmen don't want their conversations monitored as much as the next man. Valued customers who saw the vision first.
Next problem would be encryption. Is it possible? I have no idea. Seems like it should be if you went a similar route of 'magicjack.' (not that I know how it works, but I'd think it should) A way to scramble the message and put an lock on the file from anyone getting it. Sounds feasible. I might just be drunk though.
It is the future. I know I'll be the one years down the line kicking myself in the ass but I want to see it done. If I had the knowledge I would be trying.
Again this is hypothetical. I have no idea what obscure law of bypassing telecommunication standards they'd bring out. (just for a made up example) The feds would be pissed. Local police would be pissed.
I am not saying anyone break any laws. The laws should be researched and the business model should made to be in compliance with all federal and local laws. Not to mention it should be a p2p service with a donate link to be certain you don't go the way of Julian Assange.
CaptUSA
06-07-2013, 10:37 PM
This is how one of my associates views this whole FISA/Verizon scandal...
"ohhh scary, they will now know you called your mom at 8:36 pm on 6/5/13 from your house! how dare they. In my opinion, unless your up to some shady shit and planning a terrorist attack, i dont see anything wrong with releasing this information."
Yeah! Shady shit like planning a terrorist attack... or talking to a reporter about a government official... or organizing a Tea Party rally... or talking about the poker game this weekend... or a bake sale you were going to have to raise funds for some charitable cause without reporting the proceeds and getting the proper permitting... or that online forum you post on anonymously...
You know... "shady shit"!
Tell him, "Hey dumbass, anything the State hasn't already authorized and grabbed a few pennies from is "shady shit".
MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
06-08-2013, 02:06 PM
The is a multimillion dollar untapped (literally, untapped) market available.
How about some solutions?
Tech people, people who specialize in surveillance and counter-surveillance..
Privacy is something that the American people would want. A p2p app or program would be a game changer.
I think if it became popular enough, that would be the death of it. That's in addition to what CPUd mentioned, but it gives potential investors another problem to worry about. I agree with you big time on there being a consumer demand for it.
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