View Full Version : Ted Cruz: ‘Abolish the IRS’
green73
06-04-2013, 05:58 AM
Hours before the House Appropriations Committee held a hearing on political targeting at the Internal Revenue Service, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) had a simple solution to the agency’s problems — get rid of it altogether.
Senator Ted Cruz ✔ @SenTedCruz
Mr. President, if your #1 priority is fixing the problem, let's abolish the #IRS and ensure it NEVER happens again!
6:07 PM - 16 May 2013
“I think we ought to abolish the IRS and instead move to a simple flat tax where the average American can fill out taxes on postcard,” he explained in a Fox News interview over the weekend. “Put down how much you earn, put down a deduction for charitable contributions, home mortgage and how much you owe. It ought to be a simple one-page postcard, and take the agents, the bureaucracy out of Washington and limit the power of government.”
Cruz proposed a flat tax during the 2012 election, but he said he would keep a standard deduction for lower-income earners, as well as deductions for mortgage interest and charitable donations.
Former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Tex.) has frequently called for the abolition of the IRS. He would have gone further than Cruz by also eliminating the income tax.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/03/ted-cruz-abolish-the-irs/
Warlord
06-04-2013, 06:02 AM
Abolish Goldman Sachs too then his wife will be out of a job:
Goldman Sachs would not now be solvent without the subsidies it has enjoyed over the years, including various government guarantees for TBTF including systemic risk insurance: TARP, ZIRP, QE Infinity, successful deregulation lobbying in foreign and home markets, etc. The article below lists the government interventions that have assured banks' profitability:
Big Bank Welfare Queens Unprofitable Without Government Subsidies
(http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/02/big-bank-welfare-queens-unprofitable-without-government-subsidies-so-why-dont-we-regulate-them-like-utilities.html)
HEY!
TED'S
RIGHT
!!!
SLAY THE DRAGON
aBOLISh
....IT....
!!!!!!!!!!
kathy88
06-04-2013, 06:43 AM
I so want to comment on this, but I"m too mad. FUCK Ted Cruz. Ron was too fringe to endorse, but when it's politically expedient for him, use Ron's platform to get ahead. He can kiss my big fat white ass.
Warlord
06-04-2013, 06:48 AM
I so want to comment on this, but I"m too mad. FUCK Ted Cruz. Ron was too fringe to endorse, but when it's politically expedient for him, use Ron's platform to get ahead. He can kiss my big fat white ass.
Rafael 'Ted' Cruz would stab you in the back in a heartbeat.
Trust me he's a very calculating, Manchurian candidate and MaverickPAC owned (Bush crime family).
That's the real reason he wouldn't endorse Ron as it wouldn't have gone down well with those connections in Texas but notice he's now sucking up to Rand.
stop being paranoid about Ted Cruz
Warlord
06-04-2013, 06:51 AM
stop being paranoid about Ted Cruz
I will when his wife stops being a Big Bank Welfare Queen:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/02/big-bank-welfare-queens-unprofitable-without-government-subsidies-so-why-dont-we-regulate-them-like-utilities.html
kathy88
06-04-2013, 07:00 AM
stop being paranoid about Ted Cruz
Stop being so naive. The fact that anyone on this board is falling for Cruz's "I'm a Liberty Guy" horsehit amazes me.
easycougar
06-04-2013, 09:51 AM
LOL
Ted Cruz says "let's abolish the IRS"...
...gets bashed relentlessly for it
Is this Ron Paul Forums?
ghengis86
06-04-2013, 09:57 AM
LOL
Ted Cruz says "let's abolish the IRS"...
...gets bashed relentlessly for it
Is this Ron Paul Forums?
i think because he still wants a tax on income, which is evil. Ron was about abolishign the IRS and replacing it with...nothing! Cruz wants an income tax still, just not a bloated government agency. "Efficient theft is the best theft!"
green73
06-04-2013, 10:06 AM
Why Is the IRS Under Attack?
by Lew Rockwell
As under Breshnev, so in the US: scandals never emerge into the state-controlled media without a political purpose, let alone about such a central organ as the IRS. So the conservative tax-exempt scandal may be a neocon trick to assuage people's anger at the government. The IRS can be abolished, with a worse system put in place. See Ted Cruz (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/03/ted-cruz-abolish-the-irs/), for example. Any tax system, which is always based on armed robbery, must have a spy system. And a nasty flat tax or national sales tax will be used to drastically, if somewhat invisibly, raise the thieves' take. As the Cruz article points out, only Ron Paul has the correct view: abolish the income tax, and replace it with nothing.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/138619.html
Pericles
06-04-2013, 10:10 AM
Help me out - is getting rid of the IRS movement toward more liberty or less liberty?
jmdrake
06-04-2013, 10:15 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/03/ted-cruz-abolish-the-irs/
“I think we ought to abolish the IRS and instead move to a simple flat tax where the average American can fill out taxes on postcard,” he explained in a Fox News interview over the weekend. “Put down how much you earn, put down a deduction for charitable contributions, home mortgage and how much you owe. It ought to be a simple one-page postcard, and take the agents, the bureaucracy out of Washington and limit the power of government.”
Translation? "Eliminate the deductions except for the ones I approve". The home mortgage deduction is part of the problem in housing. Many otherwise smart people are stupid enough to believe they need a big mortgage so they can deduct the interest. If you want your tax form to be "simple" you can always fill out a 1040EZ. I don't want a "simple" income tax. I want no income tax. Oh, and he doesn't fix the current problem when he includes "charitable deductions". Don't get me wrong. I support charity. But that still means that somebody somewhere has to decide what is or isn't a legit charity. And isn't that what this whole IRS scandal was about? Certain "right wing" tax exempt organizations where having their applications scrutinized extra?
jmdrake
06-04-2013, 10:18 AM
Help me out - is getting rid of the IRS movement toward more liberty or less liberty?
How does Ted's actual plan get rid of the IRS?
Cruz proposed a flat tax during the 2012 election, but he said he would keep a standard deduction for lower-income earners, as well as deductions for mortgage interest and charitable donations.
Sounds like there is still "internal revenue" being collected and people can still itemize deductions if they wish. Okay. He gets rid of the state income tax and sales tax deductions it looks like. How is that a good thing?
Here's how you actually get rid of the IRS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aXs9ujSbM4c
bunklocoempire
06-04-2013, 10:25 AM
Abolish Goldman Sachs too then his wife will be out of a job:
Goldman Sachs would not now be solvent without the subsidies it has enjoyed over the years, including various government guarantees for TBTF including systemic risk insurance: TARP, ZIRP, QE Infinity, successful deregulation lobbying in foreign and home markets, etc. The article below lists the government interventions that have assured banks' profitability:
Big Bank Welfare Queens Unprofitable Without Government Subsidies
(http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/02/big-bank-welfare-queens-unprofitable-without-government-subsidies-so-why-dont-we-regulate-them-like-utilities.html)
Thanks for the info -will spread far and wide. You want to be sure you have a snake bite kit handy when handling this one.
WIKI
Cruz met his wife while working on the George W. Bush presidential campaign of 2000. Cruz's wife is currently head of the Southwest Region in the Investment Management Division of Goldman, Sachs & Co. and previously worked in the White House for Condoleezza Rice and in New York as an investment banker.[62]
helmuth_hubener
06-04-2013, 10:29 AM
Help me out - is getting rid of the IRS movement toward more liberty or less liberty?
What does that mean? Does it mean getting rid of the tax collection agency of the US national gov't? If so, then yes, that is obviously more liberty. But wait: the national gov't is going to continue collecting taxes, you say? Well then who will collect them? Obviously there must still be an agency which will do the collecting. Perhaps now it will be called the Tax Collection Department, or the Code Compliance Helpers. All or most of the same staff from the (abolished!!!) IRS will of course be brought over to man this "new" agency. Sorry, but whether it's called IRS, TCD, or CCH, makes no difference. Will they be auditing people? Staging raids? Throwing folks in cages? Yes, obviously all of the above, or else people will not pay the taxes. Meet the new boss, same as the old, just a new name.
Lew Rockwell has it right. To *actually* abolish the IRS requires abolishing the income tax. Which is what must be done.
kathy88
06-04-2013, 10:37 AM
Help me out - is getting rid of the IRS movement toward more liberty or less liberty?
That completely depends on what it will be replaced with. Cruz is NOT on our side.
flat tax????? Didn't you learn ANYTHING, Ted???? Eliminate the income tax and replace it with NOTHING.
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Brief-History-of-IRS
How did the feds collect revenue to operate prior to the creation of the IRS (in whatever earlier form it manifested itself)? There must have been some mechanism to collect and distribute revenue. How were the White House and other federal structures built and paid for and how was, say, the War of 1812 funded? How was Oliver Hazard Perry's ship, the USS Lawrence paid for?
Brief History of IRS
Origin
The roots of IRS go back to the Civil War when President Lincoln and Congress, in 1862, created the position of commissioner of Internal Revenue and enacted an income tax to pay war expenses. The income tax was repealed 10 years later. Congress revived the income tax in 1894, but the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional the following year.
16th Amendment
In 1913, Wyoming ratified the 16th Amendment, providing the three-quarter majority of states necessary to amend the Constitution. The 16th Amendment gave Congress the authority to enact an income tax. That same year, the first Form 1040 appeared after Congress levied a 1 percent tax on net personal incomes above $3,000 with a 6 percent surtax on incomes of more than $500,000.
In 1918, during World War I, the top rate of the income tax rose to 77 percent to help finance the war effort. It dropped sharply in the post-war years, down to 24 percent in 1929, and rose again during the Depression. During World War II, Congress introduced payroll withholding and quarterly tax payments.
1913 Form 1040 (http://www.irs.gov/file_source/pub/irs-utl/1913.pdf) (PDF 126KB, 4 pages, including instructions)
A New Name
In the 50s, the agency was reorganized to replace a patronage system with career, professional employees. The Bureau of Internal Revenue name was changed to the Internal Revenue Service. Only the IRS commissioner and chief counsel are selected by the president and confirmed by the Senate.
Today’s IRS Organization
The IRS Restructuring and Reform Act of 1998 prompted the most comprehensive reorganization and modernization of IRS in nearly half a century. The IRS reorganized itself to closely resemble the private sector model of organizing around customers with similar needs.
Today's IRS Organization (http://www.irs.gov/uac/Today%27s-IRS-Organization)
LibertyEagle
06-04-2013, 11:13 AM
Translation? "Eliminate the deductions except for the ones I approve". The home mortgage deduction is part of the problem in housing. Many otherwise smart people are stupid enough to believe they need a big mortgage so they can deduct the interest. If you want your tax form to be "simple" you can always fill out a 1040EZ. I don't want a "simple" income tax. I want no income tax. Oh, and he doesn't fix the current problem when he includes "charitable deductions". Don't get me wrong. I support charity. But that still means that somebody somewhere has to decide what is or isn't a legit charity. And isn't that what this whole IRS scandal was about? Certain "right wing" tax exempt organizations where having their applications scrutinized extra?
It also wouldn't exactly be fair to just dump the mortgage deduction, given that a number of people bought houses based off of that assumption.
It's a hard deal for sure. If you have any deductions at all, the door is already open for them to lob more on to handout special favor to cronies.
LibertyEagle
06-04-2013, 11:14 AM
flat tax????? Didn't you learn ANYTHING, Ted???? Eliminate the income tax and replace it with NOTHING.
That would NEVER pass; at least not right now.
Brian4Liberty
06-04-2013, 11:43 AM
Translation? "Eliminate the deductions except for the ones I approve". The home mortgage deduction is part of the problem in housing. Many otherwise smart people are stupid enough to believe they need a big mortgage so they can deduct the interest. If you want your tax form to be "simple" you can always fill out a 1040EZ. I don't want a "simple" income tax. I want no income tax. Oh, and he doesn't fix the current problem when he includes "charitable deductions". Don't get me wrong. I support charity. But that still means that somebody somewhere has to decide what is or isn't a legit charity. And isn't that what this whole IRS scandal was about? Certain "right wing" tax exempt organizations where having their applications scrutinized extra?
Yeah, that was glaring. Simple income tax, with my favorite two exemptions.
It also wouldn't exactly be fair to just dump the mortgage deduction, given that a number of people bought houses based off of that assumption.
It's a hard deal for sure. If you have any deductions at all, the door is already open for them to lob more on to handout special favor to cronies.
Yep, one exemption is the same as jumping on the sled and pushing off the top of the slippery slope. Phasing the mortgage deduction out over 10 years for pre-existing mortgages would be a compromise. 5 years better.
TaftFan
06-04-2013, 12:01 PM
Since replacing it with "nothing" is a silly but noble fantasy, there are essentially two options: flat tax or sales tax. I prefer the sales tax.
Brian4Liberty
06-04-2013, 12:08 PM
Since replacing it with "nothing" is a silly but noble fantasy, there are essentially two options: flat tax or sales tax. I prefer the sales tax.
Sales tax would put a bureaucratic burden on business. Income tax would put a bureaucratic burden on everyone. Less people effected the better. Plus, the fact is that business always requires accounting anyway. Individuals should be free of this burden.
Edit: simple, flat percentage and with no exemptions is important either way.
RonPaulFanInGA
06-04-2013, 12:11 PM
We can't have a sales tax, people might start saving instead of spending! :rolleyes:
FrankRep
06-04-2013, 12:14 PM
LOL
Ted Cruz says "let's abolish the IRS"...
...gets bashed relentlessly for it
Is this Ron Paul Forums?
As usual, Ron Paul supporters are their own worst enemy.
AuH20
06-04-2013, 12:16 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/138619.html
Lew Rockwell is another one with no clue. Explain to me Lew how we're going to abolish the IRS and THEN replace it with nothing, given the currently constituted government? Crucify Ted Cruz for using his brain in the real world? Sheesh!
TaftFan
06-04-2013, 12:20 PM
Lew Rockwell is another one with no clue. Explain to me Lew how we're going to abolish the IRS and replace it with nothing, given the currently constituted government? Crucify Ted Cruz for using his brain in the real world? Sheesh!
Not to mention 17 trillion we have to pay off. Even if we were to cut government dramatically, we have to pay that off.
And given criticisms of supply-side economics among Austrians, I doubt Lew is predicting a Laffer-curve type effect from cutting taxes.
sailingaway
06-04-2013, 12:30 PM
Former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Tex.) has frequently called for the abolition of the IRS. He would have gone further than Cruz by also eliminating the income tax.
:D
sailingaway
06-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Not to mention 17 trillion we have to pay off. Even if we were to cut government dramatically, we have to pay that off.
And given criticisms of supply-side economics among Austrians, I doubt Lew is predicting a Laffer-curve type effect from cutting taxes.
Ron's budget balanced in three years and never raised the debt ceiling before then, by writing off debt to the fed incurred for zero consideration. Yeah, the debt needs to be dealt with, but the entire structure of thinking needs to be changed. We need to stop the spending, and approach the debt, once the budget is balanced, as a structured consideration, not in the current push it down the road mentality.
This does continue a shell game and government designed winners and losers. Would it be better than what we have now? Likely, but I have to see it, and that is talking about what Cruz OFFERS. I distrust this congress to reform the tax code, they are too corrupt in terms of catering to special interests with lobbiests rather than representing the people.
AuH20
06-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Not to mention 17 trillion we have to pay off. Even if we were to cut government dramatically, we have to pay that off.
And given criticisms of supply-side economics among Austrians, I doubt Lew is predicting a Laffer-curve type effect from cutting taxes.
Nothing will ever be paid off. With that said, a flat tax would go a long way in throwing off the designed absurdity of the progressive tax system and it's bloated enforcement arm.
RonPaulFanInGA
06-04-2013, 12:37 PM
I heard Ted Cruz say he's not a Libertarian, and voted in the 100-0 vote for some meaningless resolution about Iran.
/91-page thread
AuH20
06-04-2013, 12:43 PM
I heard Ted Cruz say he's not a Libertarian, and voted in the 100-0 vote for some meaningless resolution about Iran.
/91-page thread
He should just kill his wife and then off himself. (/sarc)
gwax23
06-04-2013, 12:47 PM
A flat tax is leaps and bounds better than the current system. Ron even supported it. With that a sales tax would be better In my opinion.
sailingaway
06-04-2013, 12:50 PM
A flat tax is leaps and bounds better than the current system. Ron even supported it. With that a sales tax would be better In my opinion.
Ron said he'd probably vote for it but would have to see it, and only if it absolutely got RID of the income tax. No way was he going to help put in a national sales tax on TOP of income tax, of any size at all. Income tax started at 1%, as he reminds us over and over.
but it might be better.
What do you think the chances are THIS CONGRESS could come up with a bill restructuring taxes that he'd vote for though? I don't think they are capable. I think they should just stop.
gwax23
06-04-2013, 01:31 PM
Ron said he'd probably vote for it but would have to see it, and only if it absolutely got RID of the income tax. No way was he going to help put in a national sales tax on TOP of income tax, of any size at all. Income tax started at 1%, as he reminds us over and over.
but it might be better.
What do you think the chances are THIS CONGRESS could come up with a bill restructuring taxes that he'd vote for though? I don't think they are capable. I think they should just stop.
You are right, they are not capable.
And also to clarify I am not way shape or form proposing a national sales tax in addition to a federal flat tax. Its either one and the other. With either tax replacing all federal level taxes, tariffs, etc etc.
erowe1
06-04-2013, 01:41 PM
How would replacing a progressive tax with a flat tax allow for abolishing the IRS?
Sola_Fide
06-04-2013, 02:28 PM
How would replacing a progressive tax with a flat tax allow for abolishing the IRS?
It wouldn't, and the the flat tax is still a progressive tax.
The income tax system is a vast income redistribution and social engineering scheme. But the income tax code doesn’t just need to be simplified, shortened, fairer, or less intrusive. And neither do the income tax rates just need to be made lower, flatter, equal, or less progressive. The income tax should be repealed, not replaced. The IRS should be abolished, not given a new name. Tax reform should result in revenue reduction, not revenue neutrality. The only fair tax is a tax low enough to flatten skyrocketing congressional spending. Like educational vouchers and the privatization of Social Security, the Flat Tax and the FairTax are gimmicks that conservatives and libertarians should avoid.
http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance243.html
talkingpointes
06-04-2013, 02:34 PM
I heard Ted Cruz say he's not a Libertarian, and voted in the 100-0 vote for some meaningless resolution about Iran.
/91-page thread
Yeah, let me log onto my other names and battle these savages!
talkingpointes
06-04-2013, 02:36 PM
It wouldn't, and the the flat tax is still a progressive tax.
http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance243.html
Exactly. It's the same as changing a politician. The system of forceful extraction is the problem not the tax rate.
Warlord
06-04-2013, 02:38 PM
The IRS becomes 'Inland Revenue' or some other name.
Yay, we abolished the IRS. Go Rafael, err I mean Ted he likes to be called. Maybe he can then stuff more money into his wife's firm more efficiently.
He's a fraud.
Since replacing it with "nothing" is a silly but noble fantasy, there are essentially two options: flat tax or sales tax. I prefer the sales tax.
I think this is the first I've ever hear anyone who claims to be a RP supporter state that one of his ideas was silly.
Not to mention 17 trillion we have to pay off. Even if we were to cut government dramatically, we have to pay that off.
Now to think that the 17 trillion will EVER be paid off IS just sillly. Ain't gonna happen.
TaftFan
06-04-2013, 03:07 PM
I think this is the first I've ever hear anyone who claims to be a RP supporter state that one of his ideas was silly.
I'm a Ron Paul supporter, not a Ron Paul drone.
Ender
06-04-2013, 03:11 PM
A flat tax is leaps and bounds better than the current system. Ron even supported it. With that a sales tax would be better In my opinion.
No.
It is not.
Ender
06-04-2013, 03:12 PM
Since replacing it with "nothing" is a silly but noble fantasy, there are essentially two options: flat tax or sales tax. I prefer the sales tax.
Dude- you've been living in The Matrix so long, you don't understand freedom when you see it.
CaptUSA
06-04-2013, 03:19 PM
Anyone else find it funny that they put somebody named "Lois Lerner" in charge of the IRS? Was she appointed by "Phil McAuffers"? Maybe "Mike Hickback"?
TaftFan
06-04-2013, 03:23 PM
Dude- you've been living in The Matrix so long, you don't understand freedom when you see it.
I'm arguing whether it represents freedom or not. The fact is, that not only will it not pass now or in any future decades, it will not fulfill financial obligations we have. Freedom is great; freedom is not magic.
RonPaulFanInGA
06-04-2013, 03:31 PM
Dude- you've been living in The Matrix so long, you don't understand freedom when you see it.
Freedom is not a delusional fantasy world in which the U.S. Congress repeals the 16th Amendment and replaces the income tax with absolutely nothing, in our lifetimes.
gwax23
06-04-2013, 03:39 PM
No.
It is not.
Okay...why then?
Atleast in a flat tax system certain groups couldnt vote to impose more taxes on other groups. A flat tax does not discriminate based on your earnings so when taxes go up they affect everybody equally, socialists cant get away with pushing the burden just on the "rich"
This alone makes a flat tax far superior to a progressive tax.
But Like I said I still would prefer it all to be replaced with a sales tax (Eliminating all federal level taxes and replacing with a sales tax that is, Ron Pauls plan)
Bastiat's The Law
06-04-2013, 03:54 PM
Lew Rockwell is another one with no clue. Explain to me Lew how we're going to abolish the IRS and THEN replace it with nothing, given the currently constituted government? Crucify Ted Cruz for using his brain in the real world? Sheesh!
Especially when Rockwell encourages people to drop out of the political process and allow the enemies of liberty to get further entrenched and a greater stranglehold over power.
Bastiat's The Law
06-04-2013, 03:56 PM
LOL
Ted Cruz says "let's abolish the IRS"...
...gets bashed relentlessly for it
Is this Ron Paul Forums?
Have you seen the Daily Kucinich lately? Seems to be a trend.
compromise
06-04-2013, 04:07 PM
Dude- you've been living in The Matrix so long, you don't understand freedom when you see it.
You've been watching movies so much, you don't understand reality when you see it.
NationalAnarchist
06-04-2013, 04:13 PM
Stop being so naive. The fact that anyone on this board is falling for Cruz's "I'm a Liberty Guy" horsehit amazes me.
Doesn't amaze me...I am in the minority but I see another politician the way you see Cruz.
erowe1
06-04-2013, 04:20 PM
What is Cruz really calling for though? Seriously, how can any revenue neutral tax reform include getting rid of the IRS?
otherone
06-04-2013, 04:24 PM
Since replacing it with "nothing" is a silly but noble fantasy, there are essentially two options: flat tax or sales tax. I prefer the sales tax.
How about leave me out of it. The FEDERATION should be funded by the constituent STATES, not the citizenry.
LibertyEagle
06-04-2013, 04:31 PM
The IRS becomes 'Inland Revenue' or some other name.
Yay, we abolished the IRS. Go Rafael, err I mean Ted he likes to be called. Maybe he can then stuff more money into his wife's firm more efficiently.
He's a fraud.
Quite possibly, but for now, he's one of Rand's biggest allies and he is voting pretty good too. I'm all for that.
How about praising him when he votes well and not when he doesn't? I'm not sure what is to be gained with the character assassination.
talkingpointes
06-04-2013, 04:34 PM
You've been watching movies so much, you don't understand reality when you see it.
Damnnn burrrnnnn. Your mom went to college.
talkingpointes
06-04-2013, 04:36 PM
Quite possibly, but for now, he's one of Rand's biggest allies and he is voting pretty good too. I'm all for that.
How about praising him when he votes well and not when he doesn't? I'm not sure what is to be gained with the character assassination.
Ok, well here's an example of him making a bad choice. It has nothing what so ever to do with character assassination.
Do you honestly believe tax collectors will take it easy on you. Even if it was lowered today they will be back tomorrow for more. It's that simple they don't have to ask -- they just take it.
compromise
06-04-2013, 04:37 PM
Quite possibly, but for now, he's one of Rand's biggest allies and he is voting pretty good too. I'm all for that.
How about praising him when he votes well and not when he doesn't? I'm not sure what is to be gained with the character assassination.
Cruz is in no way a fraud. He will not run against Rand in 2016 as an establishment Manchurian, no matter how many conspiracy theories Warlord comes up with. Rand is Cruz's hero. There is no one in the Senate Cruz respects more than Rand Paul.
Now I hate the income tax as much as the rest of you, but why all the extreme hate for the flat/neutral revenue thing Cruz is talking about? If I recall correctly Ron's 2012 platform didn't do anything to taxes other than cut corporate/capital gains taxes and no one got mad at him then. Flat income taxes/a VAT would also get rid of the poor v rich / 1% must pay more! talking points* and I think would help to build the movement to end them all-together. Yeah, I want them gone but I think the US will have to default first before that conversation can really start.
*This point will become invalidated when it becomes illegal to own physical money and everyone must carry a mandatory bank debit/government ID card, with frequent stops on the street by police to confirm you are carrying it. This card will probably have your income level on it and you will be charged a VAT according to your level of income. Of course, everyone will love this program because it keeps those naughty rich people paying their fair-share.
jmdrake
06-04-2013, 05:09 PM
It also wouldn't exactly be fair to just dump the mortgage deduction, given that a number of people bought houses based off of that assumption.
It's a hard deal for sure. If you have any deductions at all, the door is already open for them to lob more on to handout special favor to cronies.
Current mortgages could be grandfathered in. But any premature monkeying with the tax code misses the point. We don't have a revenue problem like the liberals say or a tax code problem like the fake conservatives say. We have a spending problem. The problem with all of the "flat tax" schemes is that assume at the end of the day that the government needs to somehow collect the same amount of money from the people as it already is.
jmdrake
06-04-2013, 05:17 PM
Since replacing it with "nothing" is a silly but noble fantasy, there are essentially two options: flat tax or sales tax. I prefer the sales tax.
Why? Seriously why? Why does it matter how the government steals from you? I don't care what form of taxation we have. I care about how much taxation we have. As Ted Cruz' proposal has pointed out, a flat tax will never be truly flat. Pet deductions will find their way into the tax code. Home mortgages, charities, ect. And what state is going to let there delegation get away with getting rid of the deduction for state sales and/or income taxes? Sure, you can have flat tax "rates", but again this takes the crosshairs off the target. The target is (or should be) spending. Changing the tax code is a gimmick. And the worst case scenario is a graduated national sales tax. That's what's likely to come out of the sausage grinder that is congress. The government will have to track your income and everything you buy and sell to see what sales tax bracket you fit in.
jmdrake
06-04-2013, 05:18 PM
I'm arguing whether it represents freedom or not. The fact is, that not only will it not pass now or in any future decades, it will not fulfill financial obligations we have. Freedom is great; freedom is not magic.
It's time to wake up and change our financial obligations. If we get rid of the fed that will have to happen anyway. Or....is this movement not serious about ending the fed now?
talkingpointes
06-04-2013, 05:29 PM
It's time to wake up and change our financial obligations. If we get rid of the fed that will have to happen anyway. Or....is this movement not serious about ending the fed now?
This movement is indeed, however certain moderated elements with the guise of popularity through complacency, and shallow acceptance have started to make questioning otherwise fashionable.
Nothing says intelligence and compassion like asking a 3rd party to go over to your neighbors to enthusiastically appropriate their hard earned money for the purposes of your own desires but lack of commitment. Kinda of pathetic.
TaftFan
06-04-2013, 07:10 PM
Why? Seriously why? Why does it matter how the government steals from you? I don't care what form of taxation we have. I care about how much taxation we have. As Ted Cruz' proposal has pointed out, a flat tax will never be truly flat. Pet deductions will find their way into the tax code. Home mortgages, charities, ect. And what state is going to let there delegation get away with getting rid of the deduction for state sales and/or income taxes? Sure, you can have flat tax "rates", but again this takes the crosshairs off the target. The target is (or should be) spending. Changing the tax code is a gimmick. And the worst case scenario is a graduated national sales tax. That's what's likely to come out of the sausage grinder that is congress. The government will have to track your income and everything you buy and sell to see what sales tax bracket you fit in.
It's time to wake up and change our financial obligations. If we get rid of the fed that will have to happen anyway. Or....is this movement not serious about ending the fed now?
How about we use Ron Paul's budget as a general model. He didn't get rid of the income tax and replace it with nothing in his budget. That slogan was just preaching to the choir, and cast him as out of touch with reality. He did understand the reality though and his budget represented it.
And it does matter how the government taxes. A flat tax would be better because it ends class warfare, but that is not what I advocate. I prefer a flat, one consumption tax; no value added mechanisms and no exemptions. Taxes are reverse incentives; taxes on consumption are less harmful than taxes on income. And on an ethical scale, I consider them least bad compared to income taxes. And we do remove the class warfare gambit, so that when taxes are raised everyone knows it and it will be in their interest to oppose it.
I am very serious about ending the Fed...I support free banking, currency competition, and a gold standard for governmental purposes.
sluggo
06-04-2013, 07:17 PM
All tax reform hinges on cutting government spending.
How the hell do we do that? Or at least convince enough voters that a monstrously huge Federal government isn't such a good thing?
Occam's Banana
06-04-2013, 07:43 PM
LOL
Ted Cruz says "let's abolish the IRS"...
...gets bashed relentlessly for it
Is this Ron Paul Forums?
Yeah, and Georgie "Dubya" Bush said "let's have a humble foreign policy."
Talk is cheap. Talk from politicians isn't just cheap - it's free. And it's worth every penny ...
LibertyEagle
06-04-2013, 07:57 PM
It's time to wake up and change our financial obligations. If we get rid of the fed that will have to happen anyway. Or....is this movement not serious about ending the fed now?
Yes, but I want to make damn sure that it isn't just a segue into a World Reserve Bank. Because I know that is what they want to do.
green73
06-04-2013, 08:24 PM
Especially when Rockwell encourages people to drop out of the political process and allow the enemies of liberty to get further entrenched and a greater stranglehold over power.
Yeeeeahhh, because we all know that change only comes through the ballot box. Democracy rocks!
JCDenton0451
06-04-2013, 08:28 PM
Rafael 'Ted' Cruz would stab you in the back in a heartbeat.
Trust me he's a very calculating, Manchurian candidate and MaverickPAC owned (Bush crime family).
That's the real reason he wouldn't endorse Ron as it wouldn't have gone down well with those connections in Texas but notice he's now sucking up to Rand.
On the other hand, he is clearly very intelligent and knows what he is doing, which makes him better than 95% of Republican politicians. Remember, Bush didn't invade Iraq because he was evil, he did it because he was freaking stupid, he allowed the neocons to manipulate him. Cruz is unlikely to become a mindless tool.
Occam's Banana
06-04-2013, 08:34 PM
Remember, Bush didn't invade Iraq because he was evil, he did it because he was freaking stupid, [...]
Stupid is as stupid does. Evil is as evil does ...
JCDenton0451
06-04-2013, 09:04 PM
Stupid is as stupid does. Evil is as evil does ...
That's the truth. He really bought into this whole 'democracy' nonsense. He wanted to do good.
Yes, he may have looked like an idiot, talked like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. President Bush really was an idiot.
Brett85
06-04-2013, 09:06 PM
Stop being so naive. The fact that anyone on this board is falling for Cruz's "I'm a Liberty Guy" horsehit amazes me.
I don't necessarily think that anyone thinks that Cruz is a pure liberty candidate, just that he's a strong ally, at least on domestic issues.
Occam's Banana
06-04-2013, 09:26 PM
That's the truth. He really bought into this whole 'democracy' nonsense. He wanted to do good.
Yes, he may have looked like an idiot, talked like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. President Bush really was an idiot.
Actually, I was suggesting that Bush was both stupid and evil. Someone who does stupid and evil things is ... well ... stupid and evil.
Not being a mind-reader, I don't have any idea what his intentions were (or whether or not he "really" "meant well").
I only know that what he actually did was stupid and evil.
helmuth_hubener
06-07-2013, 11:05 PM
Not to mention 17 trillion we have to pay off. Even if we were to cut government dramatically, we have to pay that off.
No we don't.
Best if we don't.
Repudiation is the best possible action regarding the govt debt. All gov't's debts, at all levels, and all over the world.
helmuth_hubener
06-07-2013, 11:09 PM
All tax reform hinges on cutting government spending.
How do we do that? Or at least convince enough voters that a monstrously huge Federal government isn't such a good thing?
communication. We just keep communicating with people. Spreading the ideas of liberty. More and more folks will come to agree with it.
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