LIVE UPDATES: Turkish police clamp down on spreading anti-government protests

[sailingaway]

http://rt.com/files/news/1f/45/f0/00/rtx107o9-.si.jpg


Turkish police have fired tear gas and water cannon to disperse a massive demonstration against the demolition of a park in central Istanbul. The rally grew into a wider anti-government protest and is spreading across the country.

01:20 GMT: Thousands of fans from the three largest soccer teams in Turkey joined the demonstrators in Istanbul, Ayda said.

01:18 GMT: As of 3:00am local time, even the most remote and quiet neighborhoods of Istanbul have joined in the protest, Ayda, a demonstrator, has told RT. People are "banging on pots and pans, yelling, honking their car horns on the streets, and yelling slogans like "Erdogan, istifa!" (Turkish: Erdogan, resign!)."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_6kYY8fMbV0#t=6s

00:00 GMT: Istanbul resident Tan Tunali told RT Istiklal Caddesi, the street leading to Taksim Square, was almost empty as of 2:00am local time, with the protesters spreading to other streets. “Now a lot of people spontaneously started taking to the streets and probably many of them are trying to get to Taksim.”

Saturday, June 1

the pots and pans reminds me of Argentina

http://rt.com/news/istanbul-park-protests-police-095/

[jkob]

What goes around comes around

[HOLLYWOOD]

The Turkish government is a brutal dictatorship against free speech and freedoms. 100s of journalists have been put in prison for dissenting articles about the government oppression/corruption.

Another Brutal Authoritarian government funded/controlled by Washington DC.

The UN should have a Resolution 1973 on Turkey... they are also arming terrorists too

[sailingaway]

Livestreams:

Anonymous ‏@YourAnonNews 19m
Livestreams from protests in both Ankara & Istanbul in Turkey: http://bit.ly/144LHwo #DayanGeziParki #occupygezi #occupytaksim
Retweeted by Liberty Peace Love

[bolil]

Hey, Merica, here is your palantir. Remember to not be political when looking into it.

[UWDude]

And Russia lays its Ace down.

Well played, Russia, well played.

It took twenty years, but NATO is now in its death throes.

[UWDude]

This is huge, and world changing, and CNN is reporting breaking news about a flooded road in Oklahoma.

NBC's top world stories:
Marines steamed by loss of hot meals in Afghanistan
The truth about gays and money
Taliban denies Red Cross attack in Afghanistan
Officials: 4 dead after two small planes collide midair
8 arrested after brawl at kindergarten graduation
Sources: 3 Navy football players face sex assault allegations
Zumba instructor sentenced on prostitution charges

No mention of it. LoL @ propaganda outlets. It is nowhere on their front page.

[sailingaway]

Gezi park protesters bring handmade masks to counter police tear-gas rampage

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/images/news/201305/n_47935_4.jpg

Following two police crackdowns loaded with tear-gas, protesters resisting the demolition of Taksim’s Gezi Park at the heart of Istanbul are now manufacturing their own hand-made gas masks.

In what could become a must-have accessory for every Istanbul local, the protesters have invented masks by diagonally cutting big plastic bottles of 2.5 liters, placing an air pollution mask inside, and fixing the whole together with an elastic.

For those who need a hand, the occupiers have also stuck posters with instructions on the trees. They also advise bringing vinegar against the effects of the tear-gas.

As the protests entered their third day, Istanbul police had organized a dawn raid and once again fired gallons of tear-gas. In the end, the raid only seems to have increased the determination of the activists, who are now taking their own precautions.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/gezi-park-protesters-bring-handmade-gas-masks-to-police-tear-gas-rampage.aspx?pageID=238&nid=47935&utm_source=feedly#.UamJTzklabg.twitter

[sailingaway]

Altan Alpay ‏@Altan 20m
Istanbulians marching over bosphorus bridge to save #GeziPark pic.twitter.com/Znovq2KPrF Public Transportation is banned

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLpGiXdCIAAqyCY.jpg:large

[sailingaway]

57UN Stun ☠ 7h
In #Ankara, people are marching towards the Parliament Building. #direngeziparki #occupygezi pic.twitter.com/PzuhRIcgjx

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLoP3cFCQAEOQ29.jpg:large

[sailingaway]

photo gallary from earlier in the day

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentMulti/72816/Multimedia.aspx

[sailingaway]

A guide to what’s going on in Istanbul’s Gezi Park

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/31/a-guide-to-whats-going-on-in-istanbuls-gezi-park/

[sailingaway]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLpIsZPCUAA_PcI.jpg:large

ahmedrabea Ahmed Rabea 3h
#direngaziparki
Thousands marching from Asian side toward #Taksim now pic.twitter.com/kaUUgxnzns

http://distilleryimage0.ak.instagram.com/06478f0cca7211e2954322000a9f134e_7.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLon1jUCYAEaUsV.jpg:large

[sailingaway]

sounds like our media:

Louis Fishman ‏@Istanbultelaviv now
At last news channels in #Turkey dedicating time to protests #occupygezi #Taksim

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLprQP5CYAA4Th4.jpg

[phill4paul]

Nice to see SOME PEOPLE standing up for what they believe.

[JK/SEA]

send in the front loaders...

[sailingaway]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLo5rhxCQAAsTWE.jpg

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLon_0ACEAAEYQp.jpg

[sailingaway]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLnimnVCYAE98VN.jpg

[UWDude]

sounds like our media:

Louis Fishman ‏@Istanbultelaviv now
At last news channels in #Turkey dedicating time to protests #occupygezi #Taksim

American media pretty much ignored massive Anti-austerity protests in Europe for months, even when there were hundreds of thousands of people in Spain.

They will try to ignore this one as long as possible, but I don't think it is going to go away. And I'd bet Russia has agents everywhere to make sure of it. First Syria, now this. Russia is beginning its geopolitical counter-attack, one it has been planing for decades.

[sailingaway]

http://twitpic.com/show/large/cukzs6

[sailingaway]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLoGRA4CEAE2t8G.jpg

[UWDude]

This isn't just about a park, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGydtje5GSs

May 19th there was a protest, because turkey has been trying to support Syrian rebels, against the wishes of 75% of the Turkish people.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

what are they protesting

[sailingaway]

what are they protesting

It started with the government wanting to take a park (they liken it to central park or Hyde Park) and turn it into a mall. But then the peaceful sit ins were attacked (protester word) by police. I've seen pictures of a couple of dead people in the street I didn't post here. That brought out many many more, as part of that, apparently about 40,000 people walked across a bridge separating Turkey from Asia, to join in.

The problem with twitter is retweets and restatements of what happened is mixed up with what is happening now, and in this case, a lot of it is in a language I don't understand. But apparently protests spread to many cities in Turkey, and protesters are calling for the resignation of the government. But it is tear gas and police violence not AK47s and tanks, just the sort of 'armored vehicles' we had in Boston....so I don't know how realistic that is.

Then again Iceland and Argentina governments toppled when the people simply, in vast numbers, withdrew consent.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

It started with the government wanting to take a park (they liken it to central park or Hyde Park) and turn it into a mall. But then the peaceful sit ins were attacked (protester word) by police. I've seen pictures of a couple of dead people in the street I didn't post here. That brought out many many more, as part of that, apparently about 40,000 people walked across a bridge separating Turkey from Asia, to join in.

The problem with twitter is retweets and restatements of what happened is mixed up with what is happening now, and in this case, a lot of it is in a language I don't understand. But apparently protests spread to many cities in Turkey, and protesters are calling for the resignation of the government. But it is tear gas and police violence not AK47s and tanks, just the sort of 'armored vehicles' we had in Boston....so I don't know how realistic that is.

Then again Iceland and Argentina governments toppled when the people simply, in vast numbers, withdrew consent.
that's awesome, see the millions of us that are unemployed should be protesting in D.C.

[sailingaway]

this is apparently a stock photo of the park that triggered this, but I'm getting the idea that the park was only the trigger for the initial group of people, who were camped at the park, a la occupy, since Monday. When the police came in, it started something different.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLp5v98CcAAjyJp.jpg:large

[UWDude]

It started with the government wanting to take a park


As I noted, it has been simmering since 52 people were killed in a car bomb May 19th, and people began to protest Erdogan because they knew it was blowback from his rebel supporting/NATO supply line policies in Syria. Turkey is where most of the west is funneling weapons and fighters through, and the Turkish public never wanted it.

[sailingaway]

As I noted, it has been simmering since 52 people were killed in a car bomb May 19th, and people began to protest Erdogan because they knew it was blowback from his rebel supporting/NATO supply line policies in Syria. Turkey is where most of the west is funneling weapons and fighters through, and the Turkish public never wanted it.

None of that is coming through on twitter, at least in a language I can understand. There is a bunch I can't read. Clearly, something led so many people to join in, though.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLpwOCsCUAAD3vK.jpg:large

[UWDude]

If the media's narrative is correct, then all this would end as soon as Erdogan said he wouldn't raze the park. That will not be enough, because that was never the actual cause. Just like the past arab spring resurgence when Benghazi occurred wasn't about a stupid movie that insulted Mohammed. Simplistic media explanations are simplistic.

Also, I have been talking to a Turkish friend... ..and he speaks in code and riddles to avoid his government jailing him, so this is no surprise to me.

[sailingaway]

video of Istanbul at 3 am, you can hear pots and pans being hit by the crowds and people are flashing their lights in support. Birds aren't happy.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200651198836877

[sailingaway]

If the media's narrative is correct, then all this would end as soon as Erdogan said he wouldn't raze the park. That will not be enough, because that was never the actual cause. Just like the past arab spring resurgence when Benghazi occurred wasn't about a stupid movie that insulted Mohammed. Simplistic media explanations are simplistic.

Also, I have been talking to a Turkish friend... ..and he speaks in code and riddles to avoid his government jailing him, so this is no surprise to me.

I wasn't saying the narrative was correct, just that there is no mention of arms to Syria or a bomb earlier this month anywhere that I see.

[sailingaway]

Thus, during the early years of Erdogan's rule, which were characterized by a sustained push to reform Turkish laws along European Union standards, the ruling party was able to co-opt some parts of the more liberal segments of the population. Lots of people that did not compromise part of the AKP's core constituency, for example, would lambast Erdogan publicly but would quietly vote for him because he was handling the economy well and they were pleased with the growing liberal freedoms.

This dynamic has ended. After winning the last election, Erdogan's purposeful buoying of a sagging economy with massive infrastructure projects has allowed for these disparate sections of the non-AKP elements of the Turkish electorate to channel their growing anger behind one symbolic political cause. This anger has only intensified as the violence from the police has escalated.

Moreover, it is impossible to separate the demonstrations on the streets from the anger at the process for passing recent legislation. Erdogan has recently paired his environmentally questionable policies with more stringent restrictions on the sale of alcohol. The law, as is typical in Turkey, was passed quickly, and with little insight from the main opposition. The party brought the socially divisive issue to the Parliament and within two weeks passed it with little regard for how it would be interpreted by voters. The process reinforced the growing sense amongst non-AKP Turks of their disenfranchisement and their lack of real power in the political system. The Gezi protests, therefore, are an extension of this dynamic.

Erdogan's handling of the crisis thus far suggests that he remains confident in his ability to weather the storm. Undoubtedly, the powerful prime minster is confident that his core supporters will associate the protesters with the secular movement and blame them for causing trouble. This attitude is reflective of the major problem with Turkeys' troubled democracy: Namely that the Prime Minister refuses to compromise, or at least take into account, the demands of those who do not vote for him. Turkey's political agenda therefore reflects, by and large, the AKP's more conservative constituency.

Before the protests, the non-AKP voting bloc had not had a unifying cause to channel their growing anger at Erdogan's political agenda. The protests have unleashed this anger. In turn, this suggests that the only way for the government to appease the protesters is to compromise. Everything about the AKP's history, however, suggests that this route is unlikely. Thus, moving forward, the government is likely to offer a series of half-steps aimed at appeasing the people marching in the streets, like the recent court decision to halt construction on the park. While the government is bound to restore order at some point in the future, unless Erdogan is willing to make some concessions, the dynamics that have underpinned the protests will continue and clashes could erupt at any time.

more: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/protests-show-turks-cant-tolerate-erdogan-anymore/276447/

[UWDude]

I wasn't saying the narrative was correct, just that there is no mention of arms to Syria or a bomb earlier this month anywhere that I see.

there was also the kissing protest, because Erdogan was trying to clamp down on public displays of affection.

And yeah, erdogan does not compromise, and that will be his downfall.

[UWDude]

video of Istanbul at 3 am, you can hear pots and pans being hit by the crowds and people are flashing their lights in support. Birds aren't happy.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200651198836877

the light flickerings are an interesting display of support. At first I thought it was time lapse, but the birds flying indicate it is real time.

[sailingaway]

at least one tweeter identifies the tear gas with Obama, - they seem to be made in USA - but all I can understand is his name:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLqFRMVCcAAyfdh.jpg:large

VOT99 Voice of Turkey 1m
işte OBAMA'dan kardeşi erdogana #taksim hediyesi pic.twitter.com/IBqXZREvjz

[juleswin]

I wonder if this will get big enough to disrupt the rebel fighter flowing through Turkey

[sailingaway]

They are unhappy with media. Reminds me of us. They have protest pictures on one side, and a picture of what is being covered on media on the other side. I can't understand the language, but I suspect I get the gist.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLp7SMqCUAAx00N.jpg:large

[sailingaway]

I wonder if this will get big enough to disrupt the rebel fighter flowing through Turkey

the white house just issued a statement about concern for violence against peaceful protesters and protest being important in a democracy. There, of course, here, not so much.

[HOLLYWOOD]

MADE IN THE USA

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVtog8xG-NZ5JWRFnlhIdPAI7QpyjJkh2Nm-pQC4oaySpc4SDSGQ (http://www.google.com/imgres?client=firefox-nightly&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&biw=800&bih=445&tbm=isch&tbnid=MvNmxpbL6fwqAM:&imgrefurl=http://globalvoicesonline.org/2013/02/26/pennsylvania-made-tear-gas-used-against-egyptian-protesters/&docid=_1pNxDjbNIG_xM&imgurl=http://globalvoicesonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/BECIMG2CUAEwleA.jpg_large-225x300.jpg&w=225&h=300&ei=Z7apUa_qNLD1igLA2ICYDw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:16,s:0,i:140&iact=rc&dur=1018&page=3&tbnh=196&tbnw=169&start=15&ndsp=8&tx=92&ty=118)
So, how many countries is Washington DC/Pentagon overthrowing in the Near East again? Didn't General Wesley Clark state, 7 countries?

http://twitpic.com/show/large/cukzs6

[tod evans]

How about we share the free food/housing and medical our government so kindly provides?

Those people wouldn't protest if their EBT card was fully loaded..:rolleyes:

[sailingaway]

Looks like people weren't terrified away by what happened yesterday and last night:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLrtQa6CEAEEWZ1.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/justinvela/status/340845588172115968/photo/1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLrwFmfCUAAhmj2.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/VOT99/status/340848700836433920/photo/1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLrzLrpCMAAXqZQ.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/PeterSpuhler/status/340852103830450176/photo/1

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLrrhkmCIAM4ZWo.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/springrose12/status/340843683807109120/photo/1

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/777290483.jpg?1370102216
http://twitpic.com/cus16b

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLrhNxaCAAAKoe0.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/meldayilmaz/status/340832348528574466/photo/1

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/777221997.jpg?1370092629
http://twitpic.com/cuqkbx

I'm not caught up on where this stands this morning, though.

one person's statement on what it is about (I don't think 'democracy' means what they think it means, though)

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/777215867.jpg?1370091739

http://twitpic.com/cuqfln

[sailingaway]

Rawya Rageh ‏@RawyaRageh 4h
Look what hotels in #Taksim have in lobby for ppl - lemon to deal w tear gas effects #OccupyGezi #Turkey pic.twitter.com/Z7dVokPvZN

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLrIi4ACQAAx808.jpg:large

[sailingaway]

on the other side these guys are saying marathon pictures are being released as protest pictures, but this isn't a picture I've seen anyone but them sending, and the people I saw on the bridge last night in pictures were not wearing marathon clothes:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLrAfOpCAAExtOh.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/hikmetgenc/status/340796364554371073/photo/1

Pictures from last night:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLpIsZPCUAA_PcI.jpg:large

note in this one, unlike the marathon one, one side of the road is still open to traffic at this time:
http://distilleryimage0.ak.instagram.com/06478f0cca7211e2954322000a9f134e_7.jpg

--

edit, ok, some may be mixing in marathon pictures. There are some with some ambulances standing by at either side of the bridge that I could see being possibly marathon.

[sailingaway]

people coming over by ferries:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLr4G82CMAA85gh.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/VOT99/status/340857520107171843/photo/1

people are handing out wifi passwords to use
Saeed Valadbaygi ‏@SaeedBaygi 3m
If you're on the ground in #Taksim Gezi in #Istanbul, here's a list of nearby WiFi passwords you can use. #direnge http://twitpic.com/cus809

this one is being turned into iconic posters:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLXpRHhCUAA-aSC.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLoqPE5CMAAsDIf.jpg:large
https://twitter.com/OccupyLjubljana/status/340631160306675712/photo/1

kinda reminds me of this one from California, a week or so before Ron spoke there:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfXxqmzHm1q0zQEaZ_pb3lgTzDBtybj gxXrByJ4IEI6R39Rm44

[wormyguy]

I'd be hesitant to get on board with this. Erdogan has made all the right enemies - witness the routine denunciations of his "regime" by neocons. I guarantee you there will be glowing accounts of these protests in the Wall Street Journal, Weekly Standard, Commentary etc.

His government has been the least corrupt and most committed to economic freedom there's been in Turkey since its foundation. The major opposition is essentially an authoritarian ultranationalist socialist personality cult, recently beloved of the neocons. The restrictions against free speech were actually put in place by previous governments and Erdogan's attempts to repeal them or tone them down have been repeatedly blocked by the country's extremely activist judiciary, which is almost entirely composed of said authoritarian ultranationalist socialist personality cult.

[Brian4Liberty]

Is this related?


If the withdrawal is successful, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan will push for complete disarmament of the PKK, the Kurdistan Worker's Party. The party was founded as a Marxist-Leninist group to push for an independent Kurdistan comprising parts of Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria. Kurdish leaders, in turn, say that won't happen until Ankara enacts meaningful reforms giving Kurds greater use of their own language, and better access to the political process.
...
Hugh Pope, Turkey program director for the International Crisis Group, says Turkey's increasing influence in the region – especially the largely Kurdish areas of northern Iraq and Syria – makes the current policy toward its own Kurdish population untenable.

"We have Turkey becoming the big brother of the Iraqi Kurds, and increasingly becoming the effective power in northern Syria, both of which areas have large amounts of Kurds...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?413651-Kurds-Begin-Historic-Withdrawal-From-Turkey

[Brian4Liberty]

I'd be hesitant to get on board with this. Erdogan has made all the right enemies - witness the routine denunciations of his "regime" by neocons. I guarantee you there will be glowing accounts of these protests in the Wall Street Journal, Weekly Standard, Commentary etc.

His government has been the least corrupt and most committed to economic freedom there's been in Turkey since its foundation. The major opposition is essentially an authoritarian ultranationalist socialist personality cult, recently beloved of the neocons. The restrictions against free speech were actually put in place by previous governments and Erdogan's attempts to repeal them or tone them down have been repeatedly blocked by the country's extremely activist judiciary, which is almost entirely composed of said authoritarian ultranationalist socialist personality cult.

Now that is interesting. And the neo-conservatives really like Kurdistan. McCain and Graham have been there several times.


The Iraq War Was a Good Idea, If You Ask the Kurds

Last September, John McCain, Joe Lieberman, and Lindsey Graham - a.k.a the "three amigos" -- went to Iraq. The bipartisan senators had long bonded over their common support of American military intervention, most recently in Syria, famously in Iran, and -- in 2003, again in 2007, and still in 2012 -- in Iraq.

But a tour through Iraq exposes what happens when America does, in fact, intervene militarily, and so it must have come as a relief to the amigos when they arrived in Erbil, the capital of Iraqi Kurdistan. It's been ten years since the U.S.-led invasion, and most will observe the anniversary by remembering the dead and evaluating mistakes. Things are a little different in Iraqi Kurdistan, the northernmost autonomous region where the "invasion" is still referred to -- insistently -- as a "liberation." It's a strange, parallel universe in which American ideals like freedom from tyranny and economic promise are more intact than they are in America, as is the belief that those ideals can be spread and won through war. Some say that admiration for Americans runs so high that among the younger generation are Kurds named "Bush." I've never met such a child (nor have I ever met anyone who has) but it's plenty surreal that, as the amigos gleefully tweeted, Iraqi Kurds like Americans. Moreover, they like Republicans -- the more hawkish the better.

For a few days, the senators were led by a beaming President Massoud Barzani, who they referred to on Twitter as an "old friend" (by McCain) and a "Kurdish patriot and true friend of the US" (by Lieberman). They visited Erbil, Shaqlawa, and Kore, where abandoned Iraqi tanks are monuments to Saddam's defeat by Kurdish troops in 1991, the year the U.S. helped to establish a no-fly zone over the region. They reconfirmed the friendship started by that no-fly zone. Barzani was happy to show the senators what they wanted to see.

"Obama is a good family man," a local reporter told me. "But I love Bush more. Bush killed Saddam." He shook his fist and said, "I love America!"

I was also in Iraqi Kurdistan, and wherever I went the reputation of the American senators preceded me. More than usual, any objection to the war was seen as a direct affront to Kurdish freedom. Nor could I compare Obama favorably to Bush; like the three amigos, most Iraqi Kurds prefer the muscle of a Republican in office. "Obama is a good family man," a local reporter told me. "But I love Bush more. Bush killed Saddam." He shook his fist and said, "I love America!"

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/03/the-iraq-war-was-a-good-idea-if-you-ask-the-kurds/274196/

[UWDude]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLXpRHhCUAA-aSC.jpg:large



I knew that one would be iconic when I saw it.


Yeah, this could turn out not so well. If the military takes over, it is a big win for the United States. Probably, like Egypt, the people will give up, and NATO will put in a stooge.

There is no chance there will be a Libertarian Paradise after this. The only reason I am happy it is happening is once again a display to the world that a government and its media is not an all powerful entity, and it can be toppled or cut down.

As far as Kurdistan goes, yes, neocons have been wanting it for a long time... ...hoping to be its puppet state mentors, and destabilizing all the countries it is in... ...except Turkey. Turkey, on the other hand, is making overtures to the PKK... because they actually believe they can one day annex Kurdistan... ...all of it.

[UWDude]

Fucking american media... ...here is NBC's tag for thsi story:

Hundreds of protesters clash with police in Turkey

"hundreds"? Jesus.

[UWDude]

His government has been the least corrupt and most committed to economic freedom there's been in Turkey since its foundation.

You mean like turning parks to malls? Destroying small shops for malls and mosques? Restricting liquor sales?


The restrictions against free speech were actually put in place by previous governments and Erdogan's attempts to repeal them or tone them down have been repeatedly blocked by the country's extremely activist judiciary, which is almost entirely composed of said authoritarian ultranationalist socialist personality cult.

Where are you getting your information from? You mean like banning Public Displays of Affection? And since when was tehre a government that tried to curtail limits on free speech handed to it by its predecessor? Further more, how have any of his displays of police power been proof of his dedication to free speech, not to mention his statements which basically say "screw you guys, I'm razing this park and putting in a mall, it has been decided"

Where are you getting your information from?

[UWDude]

The only way I can tell whether to be behind something or not, anymore, is by mainstream media's reaction.

If they are pumping it up and praising it, I know it's a con job by the CIA, and I oppose it.

If they are acting like it doesn't exist, I know they don't want it to exist, so I support it.

Basically, I have learned to embrace anything the media ignores.

[gwax23]

Erdogan is a prick. The coming weeks should be interesting.

[sailingaway]

I'd be hesitant to get on board with this. Erdogan has made all the right enemies - witness the routine denunciations of his "regime" by neocons. I guarantee you there will be glowing accounts of these protests in the Wall Street Journal, Weekly Standard, Commentary etc.

His government has been the least corrupt and most committed to economic freedom there's been in Turkey since its foundation. The major opposition is essentially an authoritarian ultranationalist socialist personality cult, recently beloved of the neocons. The restrictions against free speech were actually put in place by previous governments and Erdogan's attempts to repeal them or tone them down have been repeatedly blocked by the country's extremely activist judiciary, which is almost entirely composed of said authoritarian ultranationalist socialist personality cult.

Yeah, I am very leery of 'embracing' entire events because there tend to be others taking advantage of them even if there is real public outrage to start it. However, I have learned, to paraphrase what UWDude said, to at least LOOK INTO what media is so overtly ignoring. I don't have this one figured out yet to my satisfaction.

[Varin]

As usual no side is the liberty side but between secularized turks and the Erdogan regime I will side with the secularist every time.

[Varin]

As usual no side is the liberty side but between secularized turks and the Erdogan regime I will side with the secularist every time.

As to the timing of the protest I suspect they are a reaction to tightening of alcohol laws.
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21578657-mildly-islamist-government-brings-tough-alcohol-restrictions-not-so-good-you creeping islamization has been the tune since the akp gained power disposing of the press like this

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21575823-government-finds-different-ways-intimidate-free-media-not-so-free

[gwax23]

Erdogan is a megalomaniac with dreams of a neo ottoman empire. Hence his talks of intervention in Syria.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Now that is interesting. And the neo-conservatives really like Kurdistan. McCain and Graham have been there several times.I just read, I think it was Mi5 aka BBC or maybe it was CIA US corporate news, they're pushing the breaking up of Iraq into sectarian states.

Nice timing eh? So easy these days to put the pieces of the covert puzzle together.

Have to dig up that Syrian/Kurdistan thread in Foreign policy section

[libertyjam]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/375669_504719476249090_613465536_n.jpg

Livestream Coverage Now: --> http://bit.ly/15rM57o

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/01/1212984/-Something-Tremendulous-is-Happening-in-Turkey

There are 40,000 people crossing from Asia to Europe on a bridge across the Bosphorus. According to tweets they are joining protesters in Istanbul. These protesters occupied Gezi park for days, battling police in riot gear. Many were injured and there are reports of people having been killed.



According to the Guardian

Turkey has been engulfed by a series of protests across several cities after riot police turned Istanbul's busiest city centre hub into a battleground, deploying tear gas and water cannon against thousands of peaceful demonstrators...

Following several days of dawn police raids on the protesters seeking to occupy Gezi park on Taksim Square in Istanbul city centre, the clashes escalated violently, leaving more than 100 people injured, several of them seriously.

Police went on the rampage against protesters who had been sitting reading books and singing songs.

According to a BBC analyst:

People are angry and frustrated at the government's decision to build a shopping centre at the expense of one of Istanbul's most famous parks. But what started as a protest against the uprooting of trees is turning into a wider platform for expressing anger against government policies.


Protestors chanting "Murderer Police" #direngeziparki on Reuters livestream reuters.livestation.com/demo
— ctekay (@ctekay) June 1, 2013



Environmentalists have been joined by gay and lesbian groups, as well as socialists, union workers, members of opposition parties from across the political landscape and even so-called "anti-capitalist Muslims". The excessive use of force by the riot police and the insistence of the government to pursue their plans for the park have escalated tensions.


photo by amnesty intl lawyers taken in front of police hq on Vatan str twitter.com/aforgutu/statu… #occupygezi
— meyrem♥☭♀ (@myriamonde) June 1, 2013

Taksim Square has political significance for the anti-government protests. As part of the reconstruction plans, the square was banned as a venue for this year's May Day rally and any kind of demonstrations in the future; but now the government's heavy handed approach risks turning the square into a focal point for protests against its policies.


Turkish protesters tearing down a poster of Erdogan. Down with his regime. #Turkey #occupygezi twitter.com/SyrianCleopatr…
— Cleopatra (@SyrianCleopatra) June 1, 2013


In a stunning example of hypocrisy the US expressed its "concern" about the events of the last few days:

"We believe that Turkey's long-term stability, security and prosperity is best guaranteed by upholding the fundamental freedoms of expression, assembly and association, which is what it seems these individuals were doing,'' state department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

"These freedoms are crucial to any healthy democracy."

I don't have to wonder what the folks who tried to hold Zuccotti Park, Oscar Grant Plaza, Dilworth Plaza, Bradley Manning Plaza and the park outside of City Hall in Los Angeles would have to say about these freedoms being crucial to a healthy democracy. Or was Jen Psaki merely observing how unhealthy democracy here in the Unites States has become?

One thing is different in Turkey than in the US:

In a sign of the tension, amateur video footage showed Turkish military personnel refusing to help the riot police, as well as handing out gas masks to demonstrators. There were also reports that some of the police had switched sides and joined the protests.

Fri May 31, 2013 at 10:42 PM PT: Another summary of events and circumstances:

On the night of May 27, bulldozers and backhoes rolled into Gezi Park, a tiny island of trees and grass at the center of Taksim Square in Istanbul, Turkey, and started ripping it apart. This was part of a government project to “pedestrianize” the historic square—what that meant in this case, according to many blogs, was turning one of the last open green spaces in the city into a shopping mall. No community organizations or local people were asked what they thought about the plans for the park, devised by the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), which included rebuilding historical barracks that were demolished in the 1940s and adding sidewalks to make the square more friendly to pedestrians.

Four days later, after nonviolent protesters occupied the park and survived attacks by the police that included tear gas and water cannons, they've won at least a temporary victory thanks to a court decision. In fact, Istanbul's mayor, Kadir Topbaş, just announced that there was never any plan to build a mall. It's an amazing 11th-hour turnaround, but it didn't happen without a battle.

Protesters began gathering in the park as early as Monday, May 27, and word spread through social media as more pro-park, anti-government Turks showed up to sit in front of the bulldozers. By Wednesday, the police were involved, and they responded to the nonviolent protests with aggressive tactics—what really got everyone’s attention was a photo from Reuters showing a young, apparently peaceful environmentalist in a red dress getting pepper-sprayed by a gas-masked cop. That image became a symbol of the “occupation” of Gezi Park, as well as the cops’ terrorization of the protesters.

https://www.facebook.com/...

6:57 AM PT: NPR report this morning:

What started as a small protest against the redevelopment of a park in Istanbul, Turkey, has spread to other cities and turned into one of the largest government protests in recent memory. While numbers are hard to come by, Al Jazeera reports that about 10,000 people gathered in Ankara chanting "government resign" and "unite against fascism."

NPR's Peter Kenyon reports from Istanbul that the government is refusing to halt the development project that sparked the demonstrations. Peter sent this report to our Newscast unit:

"As International criticism mounts over the aggressive police tactics used on peaceful demonstrators in Istanbul, prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan says the protesters should go home.

"'The Taksim project will go ahead,' Erdogan said. 'If you bring 100,000, I'll bring out a million.'

http://www.npr.org/...

[sailingaway]

Yeah, I posted a thread on it last night as it was happening....

that picture with the tear gas canisters is from last night..

[UWDude]

Definite deaths

Protester is run over by a water cannon truck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=h_0AoL72Evw

Same incident, different view, this one is closer, although the moment of impact is hidden by water cannon spray, so not exactly "graphic"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpABqkOwv1E

Note in this view, the police van that ran the protester over gave a forward spray first, indicating they knew someone was in front of them.

[sailingaway]

Definite deaths

Protester is run over by a water cannon truck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=h_0AoL72Evw

I saw pictures. I know there were deaths. One woman lying there in shorts with her sightless eyes open, for one. Picture of that: http://twitpic.com/cukkls

[sailingaway]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLsx2G_CAAEeVuo.jpg:large

[sailingaway]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLtAEpeCUAEvV5D.jpg

[sailingaway]

there is now a rumor they are using agent orange and people are recommending milk for it. Don't know if true or not.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLs22iGCYAAVQOZ.jpg

picture from this site: http://www.rightnow.io/breaking-news/ankara-turkey_bn_1370018978573.html

[Demigod]

I don't live in Turkey but I live in a country near Turkey and Erdogan in the last couple of years is giving Turkey a real bad name in the Balkans.All his actions are just waking up the old fears of the Ottoman empire again.

From what I have heard from Turks here,the people in Turkey don't like him much because he arrested the generals and he is seen as a man who is breaking all of Ataturks laws about separating Islam from the government.

[sailingaway]

Turkish Protests Video: 'Revolution In 90 Seconds' Shows Ongoing Clashes In Turkey



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/01/turkish-protests-video-revolution-in-90-seconds_n_3371952.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003

None of the real crowds are in that though, although you can hear them a couple of times.

[alucard13mm]

Surprised there are no jihadists exploding .

[sailingaway]

Surprised there are no jihadists exploding .

This one seems to be an anti authoritarian outbreak, after the park sit in was attacked. Jihadists could take advantage of it, of course, as could those who want to make it look as if jihadists are taking advantage of it. I understand arms do go through there to Syria.

[AngryCanadian]

Code Orange is rumored to be have being used according to CNN ireport.

[sailingaway]

Code Orange is rumored to be have being used according to CNN ireport.

I saw a note about that in a blog and posted the picture they posted with it. I have no idea where the picture came from, if I were asked, or what Code Orange looks like, so I can't go further than that.

[AngryCanadian]

I saw a note about that in a blog and posted the picture they posted with it. I have no idea where the picture came from, if I were asked, or what Code Orange looks like, so I can't go further than that.


My freind from what i heard on the social media this suppodely started over a park but then it turned into more then just about a park it was about the government polices. And the lack of the freedom of the press.

[AngryCanadian]

Is This Code Orange?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WaDT1KPEuB8

[NationalAnarchist]

I look forward to the day the people get so fed up with our government we do this.

[Miss Annie]

Surprised there are no jihadists exploding .

Me thinks Erdogen IS the jihadist.

[XTreat]

I am not so quick to get behind these people's revolutions. There is no telling what kind of horrible government they might set up were they to succeed.

[Barrex]

There is Croatian professor at Istanbul university. He is sending info about this.
over 1000 arrested
more than 2 dead
10+ lost eyesight because of over use of teargas
protest in 48 cities
Last 2 days situation is calmer than first days.
Police retreated from Taksim square and is now in protesters "control"
In Boston, New York, London there will be support protest too

Things escalated when Erdogan said that Taksim square will be leveled and there is nothing anyone can do about it. That draw more protesters and that draw more police and then more protesters came.....

He says it is not like in Egypt and Syria.

My perspective: What will military do? Religious fundamentalists try to turn Turkey in Islamic republic by any means. Every time they tried it so far military intervened and stopped them.

[sailingaway]

I am not so quick to get behind these people's revolutions. There is no telling what kind of horrible government they might set up were they to succeed.

Yeah, I don't know who would end up in control if this guy stepped down, but it looks like they just want transition of administrations, and a new election, not to toss the entire government structure. More like Iceland, in a sense. But I agree we don't know who would take advantage of this. All the same it is good to see people standing up.

[kcchiefs6465]

This man reportedly died.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTQ0uccj6D8

[wormyguy]

I'd be hesitant to get on board with this. Erdogan has made all the right enemies - witness the routine denunciations of his "regime" by neocons. I guarantee you there will be glowing accounts of these protests in the Wall Street Journal, Weekly Standard, Commentary etc.

Oh look, I was right.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323469804578523143694345664.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/prime-minister-erdogans-strongman-response-to-turkeys-protests/2013/06/03/6d83987a-cc78-11e2-8f6b-67f40e176f03_story.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350069/turkish-spring-kathryn-jean-lopez
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/06/03/turkish-spring-update-erdogan-doubles-down/

[sailingaway]

I posted a bunch of stuff last night.

You can be outraged at what is being done to the people without being 'on board' with a particular pressure group that is trying to use it for their own purposes.

[wormyguy]

I posted a bunch of stuff last night.

You can be outraged at what is being done to the people without being 'on board' with a particular pressure group that is trying to use it for their own purposes.

As a general rule, if it relates to foreign policy and neocons are universally and hysterically in favor of it, it is wrong. Simply because the Tsar is bad does not mean we should be out agitating for Lenin. And, by Turkish standards, Erdogan isn't even bad, although the opposition most certainly is.

[Carlybee]

Anonymous has been following it from the start and posting about it on their various outlets.

[UWDude]

Oh look, I was right.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323469804578523143694345664.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/prime-minister-erdogans-strongman-response-to-turkeys-protests/2013/06/03/6d83987a-cc78-11e2-8f6b-67f40e176f03_story.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350069/turkish-spring-kathryn-jean-lopez
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/06/03/turkish-spring-update-erdogan-doubles-down/

They always do this to appear populist. They ignored the protests for a week... ...months if you want to look at the pattern of protesting in Turkey that were always ignored, by international and local media. But when it finally became un-ignorable, suddenly they get on board and applaud the Turkish people, more then likely while lecturing them, and using phrases like "wanting to redevelop the park" instead of "wanting to tear the park down and put up a shopping mall" and "the protests got violent" as if the police did not incite the violence. It's the same shit every time.


As a general rule, if it relates to foreign policy and neocons are universally and hysterically in favor of it, it is wrong. Simply because the Tsar is bad does not mean we should be out agitating for Lenin. And, by Turkish standards, Erdogan isn't even bad, although the opposition most certainly is.

They are not worse then erdogan. They would be foolish to try to topple the government, or incite the army to start a coup on their behalf, but their basic demands to keep the park, (although I know there are some purists here that do not believe in public parks and think is the free market thinks a mall would be better than so be it...) to make media pay attention, and to end police brutality, freedom of speech (Turkey has the most jailed journalists in the world, 76 of them), to end interference in Syria, and to end Erdogan's Sharia bull dink are completely legitimate and justified.

[UWDude]

Oh look, I was right.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323469804578523143694345664.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/prime-minister-erdogans-strongman-response-to-turkeys-protests/2013/06/03/6d83987a-cc78-11e2-8f6b-67f40e176f03_story.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350069/turkish-spring-kathryn-jean-lopez
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/06/03/turkish-spring-update-erdogan-doubles-down/

I don't think you even read these. And sorry, I don't have a subscription to the Wall Street Journal like you do.

anyways, from the NRO story:


How frustrating it is that so many states believe they can support jihadists against their own enemies without ever suffering blowback at home.

hee hee

[WM_in_MO]

I look forward to the day the people get so fed up with our government we do this.
Me too.

[wormyguy]

They always do this to appear populist. They ignored the protests for a week... ...months if you want to look at the pattern of protesting in Turkey that were always ignored, by international and local media. But when it finally became un-ignorable, suddenly they get on board and applaud the Turkish people, more then likely while lecturing them, and using phrases like "wanting to redevelop the park" instead of "wanting to tear the park down and put up a shopping mall" and "the protests got violent" as if the police did not incite the violence. It's the same shit every time.

Actually, on the contrary, take a looksee courtesy of the most extremist of the neocon mags: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/search/index.php?s=erdogan

Note the hundreds of articles going back years, every single one a hysterical condemnation of Erdogan frequently reaching into the ridiculous (witness, just in the first page of results, bizarre denouncements of Turkey not having enough women in parliament - Erdogan's fault, and Erdogan's sinister conspiracy with Iran to build nuclear plants in earthquake zones, no doubt due to his hatred of Israel).


They are not worse then erdogan. They would be foolish to try to topple the government, or incite the army to start a coup on their behalf, but their basic demands to keep the park, (although I know there are some purists here that do not believe in public parks and think is the free market thinks a mall would be better than so be it...) to make media pay attention, and to end police brutality, freedom of speech (Turkey has the most jailed journalists in the world, 76 of them), to end interference in Syria, and to end Erdogan's Sharia bull dink are completely legitimate and justified.

They are absolutely hoping for a military coup, which the current opposition has repeatedly employed in the past to remove governments. This is the same "color revolution" playbook all over again, except that this time the "revolutionaries" can't really even plausibly claim to be more "pro-democracy" than the government. Don't believe me? Believe http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/middle-east-and-northern-africa/turkey http://www.ndi.org/turkey http://www.iri.org/countries-and-programs/europe/turkey

"Ending police brutality" would be rather funny for those who want Turkey to return to one-party rule (the opposition Kemalists, the former ruling one party, has repeatedly tried to get the AKP banned by the courts and has been caught multiple times attempting to organize military coups and terrorist campaigns), during which time they maintained a police state that disappeared and tortured thousands of people. Their ideology is fascistic; they demand the nationalization of industry, and state-worship and military-worship unrivaled anywhere in the world. If you ever go to Istanbul, you will notice skyscrapers with gigantic Turkish flags hanging on one side - these were put up by the Kemalists.

The laws banning free speech were entirely put into place by the Kemalists, and far from supporting them Erdogan was himself a victim - he was put in prison for a year for reading a poem. His government has tried on several occasions to tone down the anti-free-speech laws, and for the most part these have been reversed by the activist judiciary of the country, almost entirely made up of Kemalists (as is the military leadership). The Kemalists are called such because they maintain a personality cult centered around the founder of modern turkey, Mustafa Kemal "Ataturk," that rivals North Korea. The slightest, and I mean the slightest, criticism of Ataturk gets you thrown in prison for years. Walk into any Kemalist supporter's home and you will notice the framed photograph of Ataturk (this is often even the case with Turkish immigrants to other countries).

The extent of Erdogan's "Sharia" or "Islamism" is changing from banning headscarves on government property to allowing women to choose whether or not to wear them (previously, criticizing the ban got you thrown in prison, courtesy of the Kemalists), and banning the sale of alcohol between midnight and 6 AM, which mirrors regulations in hundreds of American cities and towns. Thanks to laws previously passed by the Kemalists, "criticizing secularism" still gets one thrown in prison. One must weigh these things, but the case seems pretty clear that Erdogan's more in favor of religious freedom on balance.

The Kemalists have indeed opportunistically come out against intervention in Syria; even a stopped clock is right twice a day, but it should be noted that Erdogan hasn't directly intervened either. It should also be noted that the Kemalists are almost fanatical about keeping Turkey aligned with the US and Israel (people who didn't like those alliances were, you guessed it, put in prison under the Kemalist regime), so one can see why the neocons like them so much. I'll also add the NB that it's rather ridiculous to be claiming that Erdogan is a horrible dictator who needs to be removed but Assad is just a wonderful sweetheart or something.*

Do not latch on to whatever neocon media bandwagon is being put out there, especially when it's a country you know little or nothing about.

*Which is of course not to say I support intervening in Syria, Assad's opposition is clearly worse and even if it wasn't I still am against starting any foreign wars.

[J_White]

wow, this is gaining steam.
but i fear this will soon be brushed under the carpet - just like when Arab Spring spread to UAE (?) and Bahrain, or was it Saudi Arabia ?
we never heard about anything going on there and the protests were clamped down quite quickly.
Of course there are US friendly autocratic govts there, so no need for Spring there - same probably goes for Turkey too.
In Syria and Libya on the other hand, even AQ can be supported to have our own dictator !
what hypocrisy !

[UWDude]

Actually, on the contrary, take a looksee courtesy of the most extremist of the neocon mags: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/search/index.php?s=erdogan


Your analysis is very interesting, but according to my Turkish sources... .."Orientalist and over-simplified", in that it makes these protests a "islamist vs kamalist" thing, which is a gross oversimplification of Turkey's domestic politics, and the thing about "Kemal's portrait in every apartment", they say, is absurd.

However, I do not doubt there are Neo-cons salivating at the chance to use the unrest to destabilize the region, or to put in a puppet even more favorable to NATO interests, and I also do not doubt that this is a very real possibility.

[sailingaway]

Just mentioning that this hasn't stopped:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/11/world/europe/turkey-protests/index.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


Tear gas, fire, stun grenades: Chaos in Istanbul as police, protesters clash

Istanbul (CNN) -- A central square and park in Istanbul erupted Tuesday and into Wednesday in an unsettling, chaotic chorus, with tear gas canisters and water cannons from police met by fireworks, metal banging and defiant chanting from protesters.
The drama followed an ebb and flow of demonstrators all day from the Turkish city's Taksim Square and the abutting Gezi Park, where they've camped out for days, in response to the actions of riot police.

It is all a continuation of demonstrations that first focused on the environment -- opposition to a plan to build a mall at the park -- but has evolved into a crusade against Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's allegedly authoritarian ways.

On Tuesday, just before planned talks between Erdogan and protest organizers, there was no obvious resolution in sight. Certainly, neither side backed down in the latest round of clashes.

Police move in on Turkey's Taksim Square Turkey protesters dig in for long haul Are protests in Turkey a new Arab Spring?

Time and again, once the situation appeared to settle down, it flared up again. Right after midnight, for instance, government forces shot water cannons toward the park and toward streets adjacent to the square, and boom after boom of tear gas being fired could be heard.

Around 2 a.m. Wednesday, a fresh wave of tear gas engulfed Gezi Park -- where government officials have said protesters can stay -- as a column of police broke through barricades on a side street nearby. The scene was frenzied with sirens blaring, people running, some even writhing in pain.

more and multiple videos here, including one of the protester firing off fireworks when the police shot tear gas: http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/11/world/europe/turkey-protests/index.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[sailingaway]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4bEQUrhPwXg

that video was tweeted tonight, with a fake reference to a celebrity. I wondered why it was in my timeline, and it was this. Putting it here to bump this thread to go with the article Ron wrote at RPI on the Turkish protests (posted in his forum).

[UWDude]

As a general rule, if it relates to foreign policy and neocons are universally and hysterically in favor of it, it is wrong. Simply because the Tsar is bad does not mean we should be out agitating for Lenin. And, by Turkish standards, Erdogan isn't even bad, although the opposition most certainly is.

If the US media is not praising it, it is not NeoCon driven. They use the media for everything they endorse. That's how you know good from evil. LoL

BTW, Turkish media is still refusing to air any of this.

AAaaand, anybody that would want to tear down the city's last park, to put up barracks and a shopping mall, is imposing his will over the will of the people of the future. Once the last park is gone, it's gone, and that, frankly, is bullshit. So I can't beleive this Erdogan fellow is anything but a class-A Asshole.