Is it possible for there to be a free internet?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

For example, if someone was to raise enough money to launch a few satellites into space, would it be possible for anyone to use that satellite to connect to the Internet?

[CPUd]

It is theoretically possible, but you don't want your entire network dependent on a satellite. They use microwave to communicate, which travels in a straight line, so generally they would act as a relay between hubs on the ground. If the satellite goes down, your hubs become isolated. Weather is also a factor. A better use of microwave you can see sometimes on top of buildings, there will be equipment to transmit/receive with each other. This can connect a company intranet between 2 buildings.

You can use directional antennas to do something similar (but not the same) using wifi between 2 houses. If you have a computer that is non-windows, most of the stuff you need to act as a server is already built in; otherwise, it's not hard to add those components in yourself.

As long as you have 1 or more stations within range, you can create a mesh network that can cover a surprisingly large distance. Here is one of the first communities to successfully do this:

http://seattlewireless.net/

[tangent4ronpaul]

NO. And I'm saying this being a veteran of NASA, COMSAT and a former Internet sat link user.

Back in the day, a bit before the WWW was born, so everything was text, I used to connect to a server in Russia. There were no intercontinental fiber lines between our two countries so I bounced off a Russian comm satellite that had 36 channels. As the Internet started to open up to the public and not just parts of the uni and scientific and mil communities, the lag started getting extreme. To the point that everything would time out and it became useless.

Some years later, I believe it was the Dish Network that offered sat Internet for remote users. The catch was, your queries went through a telco land line and your reply came via sat to dish.

In working at COMSAT, we developed, built and sold both sat switching telcom switches as well as the sat phones used by journalists, relief workers, mariners, explorers and aspects of the mil/gvmt. I'm sure you have seen interviews with people on the ground in the sandbox where a question is asked and several seconds later a reply is received. That's lag. It's also worth noting that this is a very resource limited area, so customers were paying at the time, $5-6 a minute for connect time.

There are bandwidth, capacity and cost issues as to why this doesn't work.

Now I do have a couple of empty #10 cans - got any string? ;)

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

I should probably add that relief agencies have set up their own sat networks, but for a small user base.

MAF Opens Critically Important Satellite Communications Center, Facilitating Work of Relief Agencies Hampered by Loss of Local Telecommunications Networks
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/6043412762.html

What We Do:
Emergency Communications for Disaster Relief Deployment Archive
http://www.unfoundation.org/what-we-do/legacy-of-impact/technology/disaster-relief-deployments/

Satellite Communications For Aid And Emergency
http://www.esoa.net/upload/files/publications/newsletter_satellitesAidEmergency.pdf

Not finding the (hard copy)doc I have somewhere, but it was a tech specification of a sat that a bunch of relief agencies launched and used. Not sure if it's still active.

-t

[Neil Desmond]

It's not out of the question, but the satellites can form their own "proprietary" internet. I think smaller ISPs themselves have to pay to connect to at least one of the Internet "core" providers (collective referred to as the Internet backbone), which is mainly for providing the telecommunication between smaller ISPs by providing the cabling, their own satellites, and the bandwidth. You basically have to somehow access the Internet's backbone, directly or indirectly, in order to be on the Internet; this can be done by either setting up an ISP that communicates with the satellites and pays to connect to the backbone, or I suppose if this network of satellites is powerful enough (i.e., is capable of handling the bandwidth), it could itself become part of the Internet backbone and you can start charging smaller ISPs to connect to the internet yourself (better than free if you own the satellites, right?).

What I'm least sure about is what kind of arrangements or agreements the individual "core" providers have to be connected to each other; either they charge or pay each other based on difference in traffic direction, or perhaps they have agreements to be able to handle a minimum of a certain amount of bandwidth.

Perhaps somehow you could set something up that connects to the backbone, charges smaller ISPs, but provides free access to individuals (and pays for it by charging the smaller ISPs). There is an apparent dilemma if you try to do this, which is this: if you're providing Internet access for individuals, then what's the incentive for anyone to be a customer of the smaller ISPs? There might be a way of resolving this by making it free for customers with a bandwidth below a certain threshold (not instantaneous, but for individual average blocks of time, such as a month).

By the way, there are some technical issues that would have to be addressed to make such a thing feasible (if it can be feasible) that I haven't gotten into at all (there's a bunch of stuff that needs to be addressed in the basics alone). I'm taking it as a given that all this would be addressed and that it would be feasible to do this.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Haven't looked into this recently, but you used to contact an IP with a big pipe (actually several of them) and rent a TI or C3 or whatever line for a year or two under contract for so many hundred dollars a month. You are locked in and have to pay this. They come out and hook a fiber line to your location and if your pipe is big enough you can resell it. Or you might just be providing service to an office building or something.

To be considered reliable, if re-selling, you wanted 2-3 up stream connects, so if one went down, you could route around it. You also wanted your up stream links to have the same. This is the way the internet was designed. To be able to route around a nuclear war.

Then there was the assimilation of the small mom & pop ISP's by the big players. There are still some m&p's left, but for the most pat it's just the big companies. Anyway they came in and bought just about all the small outlets out and messed with the routing. They put local routers in UN-maned locations and routed everything to centralized network monitoring centers. So, for example, if I wanted to communicate with a computer at my uni, which is a mile away - pre-buyout, goes through one - two routers and lighting fast communications. Post buy-out, it goes to Texas and through 15-30 routers with MEGA LAG! and then comes back.

And lets not forget the YaHoo with a backhoe who digs in the wrong spot and knocks out service to 3-8 Million people. This has personally happened to me three times! It can take a day or two to fix. From being able to route around a nuclear war to a single point of failure...

THANK YOU CORPORATE AMERICA FOR TOTALLY FUCKING THE INTERNET BECAUSE IT"S MORE COST EFFECTIVE!!!!

Why would you join a small ISP? I used to belong to one. They sold, and the slide downhill went like this:
We know your old ISP was really responsive and customer service oriented - we are not. We may reply to you in 3-4 days. Please read out FAQ for further info.
We are removing these newsgroups that you read.
We will not and cannot install software that our users request we do, particularly if they involve root privileges and the UNIX operating system. We do not have any support staff familiar with UNIX.
No you may not install programs, even if they do not require root access.
We are discontinuing UNIX shell accounts.

"please cancel my account!"

You signed a contract with the company we bought! You must pay us!

"you are violating that contract! - I will not pay you another cent!"


btw: the m&p ISP I belonged to - didn't do Windows.... The company that bought them, only does Windows...


There are places you can still get shell accounts. Just google for um.

-t

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

It's not out of the question, but the satellites can form their own "proprietary" internet. I think smaller ISPs themselves have to pay to connect to at least one of the Internet "core" providers (collective referred to as the Internet backbone), which is mainly for providing the telecommunication between smaller ISPs by providing the cabling, their own satellites, and the bandwidth. You basically have to somehow access the Internet's backbone, directly or indirectly, in order to be on the Internet; this can be done by either setting up an ISP that communicates with the satellites and pays to connect to the backbone, or I suppose if this network of satellites is powerful enough (i.e., is capable of handling the bandwidth), it could itself become part of the Internet backbone and you can start charging smaller ISPs to connect to the internet yourself (better than free if you own the satellites, right?).

But isn't it still possible to create a separate Internet independent of the main one we all use, so we don't need to go through any giant ISP or anything?

[tangent4ronpaul]

But isn't it still possible to create a separate Internet independent of the main one we all use, so we don't need to go through any giant ISP or anything?

Terrestrial - sure! - there is a ton of dark fiber out there for rent or sale or you could lay your own. Thing is you need megabucks of equipment, facilities and support staff at each node. Then you need a small army to wire and hang drops.

EXPENSIVE!

The military has their own separate Internet. So does the Intel community.

-t

[CPUd]

The military has their own separate Internet. So does the Intel community.

-t

And also the banks.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Terrestrial - sure! - there is a ton of dark fiber out there for rent or sale or you could lay your own. Thing is you need megabucks of equipment, facilities and support staff at each node. Then you need a small army to wire and hang drops.

EXPENSIVE!

The military has their own separate Internet. So does the Intel community.

-t

No hanging any wires or anything, I mean an Internet that is wireless, hence the talk about satellites to relay information across long distances. Sure it won't be s uper high speed internet, but at least it's internet.

[kcchiefs6465]

And also the banks.
Serious?

[kpitcher]

I spent 10 years owning an ISP. You know why there are next to no small ISPs anymore with good service? The baby bells have government mandated zones they operate. It's their network - even with gov taxes to support it - and their exclusive territory. You want to connect to their lines and they don't want you to? Well tough. Then in '96 the gov passed the telco reform act which forced these telcos to allow interconnections with new telephone companies. You may have noticed a huge increase in new phone number exchanges in your area around this time. ISPs used these new telcos to get access lines all over the place at affordable rates. ISPs started rolling out DSL in areas the baby bells were not. People all got connected.

Bush Jr. got elected and put Powell's kid in charge of the FCC. The FCC rolled back the deregulation. Suddenly telephone companies were charging more for wholesale lines than they were charging retail rates to clients. They were able to use their government mandated monopolies to price the competition out. These other companies couldn't just start laying new lines even if they had the funds - the laws prohibited that. ISPs sold their client bases while they still had value to a few large companies that survived with their size, or went under, or transitioned to some other Internet services.

So you want a separate Internet? Forget Satellite or new telephone lines or even wireless. While doable it would be so godawful expensive it wouldn't be worth it. Satellites are slow and expensive. Fiber or new lines are very very expensive. Wireless is difficult once you get out of a metro area. The best bet is use your existing internet and use TOR or other total encryption system. Yes you use the public internet but not a thing you do over it would be readable by snooping your access.

[Neil Desmond]

Serious?
Yeah, I've heard of this but am not sure what it's called. I think this might be it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedwire

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I spent 10 years owning an ISP. You know why there are next to no small ISPs anymore with good service? The baby bells have government mandated zones they operate. It's their network - even with gov taxes to support it - and their exclusive territory. You want to connect to their lines and they don't want you to? Well tough. Then in '96 the gov passed the telco reform act which forced these telcos to allow interconnections with new telephone companies. You may have noticed a huge increase in new phone number exchanges in your area around this time. ISPs used these new telcos to get access lines all over the place at affordable rates. ISPs started rolling out DSL in areas the baby bells were not. People all got connected.

Bush Jr. got elected and put Powell's kid in charge of the FCC. The FCC rolled back the deregulation. Suddenly telephone companies were charging more for wholesale lines than they were charging retail rates to clients. They were able to use their government mandated monopolies to price the competition out. These other companies couldn't just start laying new lines even if they had the funds - the laws prohibited that. ISPs sold their client bases while they still had value to a few large companies that survived with their size, or went under, or transitioned to some other Internet services.

So you want a separate Internet? Forget Satellite or new telephone lines or even wireless. While doable it would be so godawful expensive it wouldn't be worth it. Satellites are slow and expensive. Fiber or new lines are very very expensive. Wireless is difficult once you get out of a metro area. The best bet is use your existing internet and use TOR or other total encryption system. Yes you use the public internet but not a thing you do over it would be readable by snooping your access.

It has nothing to do with privacy concerns, but rather what we would do if the internet kill switch was used.

You can grow your own food.
You can generate your own electricity
You can filter your own water
But you can't do your own internet

[noneedtoaggress]

http://vimeo.com/45819231

[dannno]

Haven't looked into this recently, but you used to contact an IP with a big pipe (actually several of them) and rent a TI or C3 or whatever line for a year or two under contract for so many hundred dollars a month. You are locked in and have to pay this. They come out and hook a fiber line to your location and if your pipe is big enough you can resell it. Or you might just be providing service to an office building or something.

To be considered reliable, if re-selling, you wanted 2-3 up stream connects, so if one went down, you could route around it. You also wanted your up stream links to have the same. This is the way the internet was designed. To be able to route around a nuclear war.

Then there was the assimilation of the small mom & pop ISP's by the big players. There are still some m&p's left, but for the most pat it's just the big companies. Anyway they came in and bought just about all the small outlets out and messed with the routing. They put local routers in UN-maned locations and routed everything to centralized network monitoring centers. So, for example, if I wanted to communicate with a computer at my uni, which is a mile away - pre-buyout, goes through one - two routers and lighting fast communications. Post buy-out, it goes to Texas and through 15-30 routers with MEGA LAG! and then comes back.

And lets not forget the YaHoo with a backhoe who digs in the wrong spot and knocks out service to 3-8 Million people. This has personally happened to me three times! It can take a day or two to fix. From being able to route around a nuclear war to a single point of failure...

THANK YOU CORPORATE AMERICA FOR TOTALLY FUCKING THE INTERNET BECAUSE IT"S MORE COST EFFECTIVE!!!!

Why would you join a small ISP? I used to belong to one. They sold, and the slide downhill went like this:
We know your old ISP was really responsive and customer service oriented - we are not. We may reply to you in 3-4 days. Please read out FAQ for further info.
We are removing these newsgroups that you read.
We will not and cannot install software that our users request we do, particularly if they involve root privileges and the UNIX operating system. We do not have any support staff familiar with UNIX.
No you may not install programs, even if they do not require root access.
We are discontinuing UNIX shell accounts.

"please cancel my account!"

You signed a contract with the company we bought! You must pay us!

"you are violating that contract! - I will not pay you another cent!"


btw: the m&p ISP I belonged to - didn't do Windows.... The company that bought them, only does Windows...


There are places you can still get shell accounts. Just google for um.

-t

Man, I LOVED my old mom and pop ISP. CTSNet. I think they were so good they may have outgrown themselves eventually and then I guess were bought out, I'm not finding out a ton about them, but this is a good article.

http://www.sddt.com/News/article.cfm?SourceCode=199909technologyty

My first computer was also a Datel..

[VIDEODROME]

Seems like it might be able to grow something out of HAM Radio.

It would be crude but it also might be surprising what you can do with radio technology and computers.

[VIDEODROME]

Dammit this is giving me a crazy idea. Googling around and I think you can set up a Linux Ubuntu BBS Server connected to a HAM Radio Antenna.

I've never been a HAM myself but both my parents have HAM Licenses and equipment. My dad has a packet radio thing he keeps having trouble with. I wonder if I could work with him and set up a Radio accessed BBS.

http://www.arrl.org/ubuntu-linux-for-hams

http://www.linuxjournal.com/ham

http://www.linuxjournal.com/files/linuxjournal.com/ufiles/HamRadioStickerR.jpg

[VIDEODROME]

More searching..... I think this is what a Free Internet might start out as. In a way, it already exists.

This video demos Packet Ham Radio. My understanding is he is connected to a nearby Mail BBS wirelessly using his HAM Radio and PC. Aside from equipment and electricity, this is a free communication system.

I do think people who are "Nodes" can be repeaters which can send on messages longer distances.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hm6omrVaeE

[nayjevin]

I saw a documentary on one of the shoutcast freedom channels (freedom.tv?) about 10 years ago about a group of guys trying to do this. They were just trying to get people to plug a simple server with antenna and software in at their houses, at their own cost, and if enough people did it, they would eventually cover all areas. I think they were based in the Houston area. I don't know how it technically worked.

I've wondered about how far wifi routers could be chained from a Google fiber server.

[Neil Desmond]

Now isn't this ironic: http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseackerman/2013/06/15/google-launches-audacious-disruptive-internet-in-the-sky/?partner=yahootix