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View Full Version : DC- 86 percent support red light cameras, almost half want more surveillance.




Anti Federalist
05-29-2013, 02:27 PM
No arguing when safety is involved.

More people die in slips trips and falls around the house than in red light collisions.

Zero Tolerance!

I demand that in home surveillance be mandated along with helmet laws for all waking hours.





Three golden miles net D.C. $28 million

By Ashley Halsey III, Published: May 27

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/three-golden-miles-net-dc-28-million/2013/05/27/47db9828-b357-11e2-9a98-4be1688d7d84_print.html

There are seasons when New York Avenue seems pocked with potholes, but for the District it is paved with gold.

It likely is one of the most lucrative streets in the world when it comes to collecting a hidden toll in traffic tickets, its gantlet of speed and red-light cameras taking in an average of $30,570 a day and a total of more than $28 million since the start of fiscal 2011.

While some drivers bristle at use of the cameras — including many who travel New York Avenue from the Maryland suburbs — an overwhelming number of District residents surveyed are pleased with the citywide deployment of them.

The nine New York Avenue cameras, spread over about three miles between the Washington Times building and Third Street NW, generated 93,313 tickets and almost $11.8 million last year. Five target red-light violators; four go after speeders.

The volume of license plates from Maryland, Virginia and other states on the avenue points to an obvious fact: Many who pony up the money don’t live in the District.

Anne T. McCartt, senior vice president at the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, has studied District driving and speculates that folks who roll in from elsewhere may be less happy with the “Welcome to Washington” ticket program.

“Non-D.C. residents may experience more of the downside of receiving camera tickets without perceiving the benefit of safer streets,” McCartt said.

People who live in the District apparently do, McCartt found when she surveyed them late last year.

“The surprising thing about this survey is that very large percentages of residents supported the red-light cameras and even the speed cameras,” she said.

In fact, 76 percent said they favored use of speed cameras and 87 percent supported use of red-light cameras.

In an earlier study of cities where red-light cameras are used, including the District, McCartt found a 24 percent reduction in fatal crashes caused by red-light running and a 17 percent reduction in fatal intersection crashes of all sorts.

She later did one of the most in-depth studies of red-light cameras after they were introduced in Arlington County. That study found a 48 percent drop in the running of red lights when at least a second had passed since the light changed. Those one-
second violations, as cross traffic has begun to enter an intersection, are most likely to result in accidents and fatalities.

Red-light cameras are banned in nine states, while 11 states allow them with limitations. Ten states and the District permit them, and 20 states have no laws. Virginia allows one red-light camera per 10,000 residents if approved by local ordinance. Maryland permits red-light cameras statewide.

In the District, supporters of traffic cameras said in the survey that they felt safer with the cameras in place.

In a reflection of the evolution away from driving in a city with ample mass transit and increasing infrastructure for bicyclists and pedestrians, 24 percent of those surveyed said they had not driven a car in the past month.

About half of those surveyed said they would like to see cameras used to catch people who don’t completely halt at stop signs, and 47 percent said they would support using cameras to ticket drivers who improperly invade intersection or mid-block crosswalks.

More than a third of District traffic deaths involve pedestrians. Between 2007 and 2011, 41 percent of the fatal crashes in the city happened at intersections, and speeding was a factor in 25 percent of deaths during the same period.

The income from New York Avenue cameras since October 2011 has been impressive, with the speed cameras the more lucrative. A speed camera in the 600 block NE brought in $17.8 million; in the 1400 block, $133,960; in the 2700 block, $2.7 million; and a mobile unit in the 2800 block, $2.2 million.

A red-light camera at the intersection of New York and Florida avenues issued $1.3 million in tickets; one at Third Street, almost $1.3 million; at New Jersey Avenue, $1.2 million; at North Capitol Street, $877,720; and at Montana Avenue, $615,310.

One remarkable finding of traffic law research is that fear of getting caught is a greater deterrent than the penalty imposed. This first surfaced when experts examined the declining rate in drunken driving: Police found that publicizing plans for sobriety checkpoints was far more effective in keeping drunken drivers off the road than it was to quietly snare a few of them.

Researchers say the same principle extends to traffic cameras. The $50 fine may sting, but it is the fear of getting caught in the first place that’s more likely to instill caution.

“You want to create this perception that, at any time in any place, you can be apprehended for running a red light or speeding,” McCartt said.

There is abundant evidence along New York Avenue and elsewhere in the District that many drivers have identified traffic camera locations. Drivers-in-the-know slow down dramatically as they approach one, slowing the rest of traffic along with them.

“With both red-light cameras and speed cameras, our studies have shown that violations go down,” McCartt said, “and that they go down not just where the cameras are located, but also at nearby locations without cameras. We refer to that as the spillover effect.”

Despite that, six months into the current fiscal year, the cameras of New York Avenue were on pace to match or better the number of tickets and revenue from each of the previous two years.

“My thought is that until there’s a dramatic cultural change, people will continue to run red lights and speed,” said Jonathan Adkins of the Governors Highway Safety Association, a coalition of state safety officials.

bolil
05-29-2013, 02:30 PM
Rule by poll. Not 86 percent of DC, but 86 percent of those polled. We all know polls cannot be manipulated.

kcchiefs6465
05-29-2013, 02:48 PM
It likely is one of the most lucrative streets in the world when it comes to collecting a hidden toll in traffic tickets, its gantlet of speed and red-light cameras taking in an average of $30,570 a day and a total of more than $28 million since the start of fiscal 2011.
:eek:.. damn.

On a side note I don't think they really understand how much more dangerous these cameras make it. Out here they have a red light camera that will also ticket for speed. At the speed limit of 45 MPH, when the light changes to yellow, you better pray you aren't near it. Many people have slammed on their brakes trying to avoid being ticketed. (as you can't speed up to make the light) Very dangerous.

It's pretty sad to see a poll like that. It is so high though, I'd imagine it is somehow biased. Eighty-seven percent? - no way.

sailingaway
05-29-2013, 02:52 PM
No arguing when safety is involved.

More people die in slips trips and falls around the house than in red light collisions.

Zero Tolerance!

I demand that in home surveillance be mandated along with helmet laws for all waking hours.





Three golden miles net D.C. $28 million

By Ashley Halsey III, Published: May 27

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/three-golden-miles-net-dc-28-million/2013/05/27/47db9828-b357-11e2-9a98-4be1688d7d84_print.html

There are seasons when New York Avenue seems pocked with potholes, but for the District it is paved with gold.

It likely is one of the most lucrative streets in the world when it comes to collecting a hidden toll in traffic tickets, its gantlet of speed and red-light cameras taking in an average of $30,570 a day and a total of more than $28 million since the start of fiscal 2011.

While some drivers bristle at use of the cameras — including many who travel New York Avenue from the Maryland suburbs — an overwhelming number of District residents surveyed are pleased with the citywide deployment of them.

The nine New York Avenue cameras, spread over about three miles between the Washington Times building and Third Street NW, generated 93,313 tickets and almost $11.8 million last year. Five target red-light violators; four go after speeders.

The volume of license plates from Maryland, Virginia and other states on the avenue points to an obvious fact: Many who pony up the money don’t live in the District.

Anne T. McCartt, senior vice president at the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, has studied District driving and speculates that folks who roll in from elsewhere may be less happy with the “Welcome to Washington” ticket program.

“Non-D.C. residents may experience more of the downside of receiving camera tickets without perceiving the benefit of safer streets,” McCartt said.

People who live in the District apparently do, McCartt found when she surveyed them late last year.

“The surprising thing about this survey is that very large percentages of residents supported the red-light cameras and even the speed cameras,” she said.

In fact, 76 percent said they favored use of speed cameras and 87 percent supported use of red-light cameras.

In an earlier study of cities where red-light cameras are used, including the District, McCartt found a 24 percent reduction in fatal crashes caused by red-light running and a 17 percent reduction in fatal intersection crashes of all sorts.

She later did one of the most in-depth studies of red-light cameras after they were introduced in Arlington County. That study found a 48 percent drop in the running of red lights when at least a second had passed since the light changed. Those one-
second violations, as cross traffic has begun to enter an intersection, are most likely to result in accidents and fatalities.

Red-light cameras are banned in nine states, while 11 states allow them with limitations. Ten states and the District permit them, and 20 states have no laws. Virginia allows one red-light camera per 10,000 residents if approved by local ordinance. Maryland permits red-light cameras statewide.

In the District, supporters of traffic cameras said in the survey that they felt safer with the cameras in place.

In a reflection of the evolution away from driving in a city with ample mass transit and increasing infrastructure for bicyclists and pedestrians, 24 percent of those surveyed said they had not driven a car in the past month.

About half of those surveyed said they would like to see cameras used to catch people who don’t completely halt at stop signs, and 47 percent said they would support using cameras to ticket drivers who improperly invade intersection or mid-block crosswalks.

More than a third of District traffic deaths involve pedestrians. Between 2007 and 2011, 41 percent of the fatal crashes in the city happened at intersections, and speeding was a factor in 25 percent of deaths during the same period.

The income from New York Avenue cameras since October 2011 has been impressive, with the speed cameras the more lucrative. A speed camera in the 600 block NE brought in $17.8 million; in the 1400 block, $133,960; in the 2700 block, $2.7 million; and a mobile unit in the 2800 block, $2.2 million.

A red-light camera at the intersection of New York and Florida avenues issued $1.3 million in tickets; one at Third Street, almost $1.3 million; at New Jersey Avenue, $1.2 million; at North Capitol Street, $877,720; and at Montana Avenue, $615,310.

One remarkable finding of traffic law research is that fear of getting caught is a greater deterrent than the penalty imposed. This first surfaced when experts examined the declining rate in drunken driving: Police found that publicizing plans for sobriety checkpoints was far more effective in keeping drunken drivers off the road than it was to quietly snare a few of them.

Researchers say the same principle extends to traffic cameras. The $50 fine may sting, but it is the fear of getting caught in the first place that’s more likely to instill caution.

“You want to create this perception that, at any time in any place, you can be apprehended for running a red light or speeding,” McCartt said.

There is abundant evidence along New York Avenue and elsewhere in the District that many drivers have identified traffic camera locations. Drivers-in-the-know slow down dramatically as they approach one, slowing the rest of traffic along with them.

“With both red-light cameras and speed cameras, our studies have shown that violations go down,” McCartt said, “and that they go down not just where the cameras are located, but also at nearby locations without cameras. We refer to that as the spillover effect.”

Despite that, six months into the current fiscal year, the cameras of New York Avenue were on pace to match or better the number of tickets and revenue from each of the previous two years.

“My thought is that until there’s a dramatic cultural change, people will continue to run red lights and speed,” said Jonathan Adkins of the Governors Highway Safety Association, a coalition of state safety officials.

Neighborhoods want speed bumps, commuters don't. THis might in part be a 'most come from outside and don't respect that people live here' type of dicotomy, or it may be that in DC you have government drones who avoided the recession because govt grew bigger, all jobs (essentially) are because of government, and 'government' is unusually hailed as a good thing.

speculating here, you understand. But DC is an unusual situation, I do believe.

Bern
05-29-2013, 03:00 PM
We had slightly different results in Houston, TX where red light cameras were imposed and subsequently removed after much gnashing of teeth.

mczerone
05-29-2013, 03:04 PM
Rule by poll. Not 86 percent of DC, but 86 percent of those polled. We all know polls cannot be manipulated.

It's more insidious than "manipulated polls."

I've seen this in more and more news stories lately: x% favor obamacare, y% favor a single-payer system, z% favors right-to-work laws, w% favors some form of gun control.

This reliance on polling does two things: first, it skips the ethics/efficiency/constitutionality arguments in favor of a simplistic view that "whatever the majority wants must be good/proper/legal," and second, it browbeats recalcitrants into accepting what a majority of their neighbors think by pure tribalism.

This trend is a natural outgrowth of any democratic system, and is more dangerous than the moral hazard argument that the majority will vote to steal the minority's stuff. It instills an us/them dynamic and completely throws rational thought out the window.

Even when polls favor "good" things, like the end of the Drug War, the point is lost that these things are rationally, objectively, and constitutionally bad. They're just "unpopular" so they are going to change.

Polls shouldn't excuse bad behavior, nor should they the driver for good behavior. A real leader would say "I don't give a damn what polls say, doing X is wrong" or "I'm glad that the polls agree that doing Y is right, it shows that people agree with the reasoning behind it."

amy31416
05-29-2013, 03:08 PM
:eek:.. damn.

On a side note I don't think they really understand how much more dangerous these cameras make it. Out here they have a red light camera that will also ticket for speed. At the speed limit of 45 MPH, when the light changes to yellow, you better pray you aren't near it. Many people have slammed on their brakes trying to avoid being ticketed. (as you can't speed up to make the light) Very dangerous.

It's pretty sad to see a poll like that. It is so high though, I'd imagine it is somehow biased. Eighty-seven percent? - no way.

Just like those talking heads who kept saying that 90% of Americans support additional gun control measures.

aGameOfThrones
05-29-2013, 06:13 PM
Stop breaking the law and you won't get a ticket.

Anti Federalist
05-29-2013, 06:18 PM
Stop breaking the law and you won't get a ticket.

There ya go!

Zero Tolerance.

DamianTV
05-29-2013, 06:52 PM
These silly mundanes think that if they have cameras everywhere, they'll be able to both catch and recognize when a politician commits a crime. Two big problems is that #1, politicians are IMMUNE to their own laws. Laws apply to the Mundanes, not those in any sort of power. #2, they think that they will be able to recognize when a crime takes place. Most people still think the Federal Reserve Bank is a part of the US Govt, and continue to fail every single day to understand that the Bank is what enables the Criminals to have as much power over the Mundanes as they do.

donnay
05-29-2013, 07:17 PM
Must be an area that has heavy doses of hydrofluorosilicic acid, sodium fluorosilicate, and sodium fluoride in the water.

nobody's_hero
05-29-2013, 09:39 PM
I wonder if 86% of the population in D.C. are bureaucrats.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-29-2013, 10:36 PM
These silly mundanes think that if they have cameras everywhere, they'll be able to both catch and recognize when a politician commits a crime. Two big problems is that #1, politicians are IMMUNE to their own laws. Laws apply to the Mundanes, not those in any sort of power. #2, they think that they will be able to recognize when a crime takes place. Most people still think the Federal Reserve Bank is a part of the US Govt, and continue to fail every single day to understand that the Bank is what enables the Criminals to have as much power over the Mundanes as they do.
Not anymore. They said the Federal Reserve is private on Pawn Stars, and a lot of people watch that show. :D

AngryCanadian
05-29-2013, 10:38 PM
Rule by poll. Not 86 percent of DC, but 86 percent of those polled. We all know polls cannot be manipulated.
Just as with elections polls can be manipulated.

thoughtomator
05-29-2013, 10:53 PM
DC is a city whose entire existence is predicated on mass serial armed robbery and all the associated consequences thereof. Of course they're into automated asset harvesting - they don't have to care what you think as long as they got that gun to your head.

I got caught with one of those DC cameras last year. I have not been to, nor spent a dollar at a business located in, that city since. What they got from me from that bullshiticket they have since lost many times over in business I would have done in that city otherwise. Moral of the story: Don't fuck with Bastiat, he'll mess you up.