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Anti Federalist
05-26-2013, 01:17 PM
Andrew Sullivan, terrorism, and the art of distortion

Challenging the conventional western narrative on terrorism produces unique amounts of rage and bile. It's worth examining why

Glenn Greenwald

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/25/andrew-sullivan-distortion-terrorism-woolwich

guardian.co.uk, Saturday 25 May 2013 09.32 EDT

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/5/25/1369486766507/nato.png
Afghan villagers in the Kunar province sit near the bodies of 10 children killed in a Nato airstrike in Afghanistan on 7 April 2013. Photograph: Reuters

(updated below)

Everyone who participates in political debates sometimes has their arguments publicly misrepresented. Like many writers, if I noted and refuted every case where that happened to me, I would have time for nothing else. But sometimes the distortions are so fundamental and obvious - as well as pernicious - that they are worth examining. I had intended to write today about the reaction to this week's War on Terror speech by President Obama, but will postpone that until tomorrow so that I can instead discuss what Andrew Sullivan (and others) did yesterday. Beyond my wanting to correct their glaring distortions, the episode raises some interesting broader points that drive debates on these issues.

On Thursday, I wrote about the London killing of a British soldier by two men using a meat cleaver. The sub-headline, which I wrote, called it a "horrific act of violence", a phrase I repeated in the very first sentence. I described that event as one where the solider had been "hacked to death". In the second paragraph, I wrote:


That this was a barbaric and horrendous act goes without saying."

I then proceeded to raise two main points about the attack. First, given that the person killed was not a civilian but a soldier of a nation at war (using US standards), it is difficult to devise a definition of "terrorism" that encompasses this attack while excluding large numbers of recent acts by the US, the UK and many of their allies and partners.

Second, despite the self-serving bewilderment that is typically expressed whenever western nations are the targets rather than perpetrators of violence - why would anyone possibly be so monstrous and savage as to want to attack us this way? - the answer is actually well-known and well-documented. As explained by the CIA ("blowback"), the Pentagon (they "do not 'hate our freedom,' but rather, they hate our policies"), former CIA agents ("we could try invading, occupying and droning Muslim countries a little less, and see if that helps. Maybe prop up fewer corrupt and tyrannical Muslim regimes"), and British combat veterans ("it should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home"), spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well. In the London case, the attacker cited precisely such anger at US/UK aggression as his motive ("this British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. . . . the only reason we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily"). Those are just facts.

Having written about these matters many times before, I know exactly how some people reflexively try to radically distort the argument beyond recognition in order to smear you as a Terror apologist, a Terrorist-lover or worse, all for the thought crime of raising these issues. To do so, they deceitfully conflate claims of causation (A is one of the causes of B) with justification (B is justified). Anyone operating with the most basic levels of rationality understands that these concepts are distinct. To discuss what motivates a person to engage in Action B is not remotely to justify Action B.

To use the example recently provided by former CIA agent Barry Eisler in his brilliant explanation of "blowback", if Person X walks up to Person Y on the street and spits in his face, and Person Y then pulls out a gun and shoots Person X in the head and kills him in retaliation, one can observe that Person X's spitting was a causal factor in Person Y's behavior without remotely justifying Person Y's lethal violence. One can point out that a potential cost of walking up to people on the street and spitting in their face is that they are likely to respond with similar or worse aggression - and that this is one reason not to engage in such behavior - without justifying or legitimizing the response that is provoked and without denying (or even minimizing) the agency or blame of the person who responds.

This is all so basic and self-evident that it should be unnecessary to point it out. But I know from prior experience in having my arguments on this issue wildly distorted and smeared that it's quite necessary. So I did point it out: by several times making clear exactly what I was - and was not - arguing, and did so as explicitly as the English language permits:


As I've endlessly pointed out, highlighting this causation doesn't remotely justify the acts."

Concerning whether this attack should be categorized as "terrorism", I explained precisely why it's vital to ask that question: because the term bears such great significance legally, politically, culturally, and emotionally and yet has no clear or consistently applied definition, and is thus used as a propaganda tool to glorify violence and other conduct by western states while rendering inherently illegitimate all violence directed at those states. In doing so, I was equally explicit about what I was and was not arguing [emphasis added]:


"I know this vital caveat will fall on deaf ears for some, but nothing about this discussion has anything to do with justifiability. An act can be vile, evil, and devoid of justification without being 'terrorism': indeed, most of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century, from the Holocaust to the wanton slaughter of Stalin and Pol Pot and the massive destruction of human life in Vietnam, are not typically described as 'terrorism'. To question whether something qualifies as 'terrorism' is not remotely to justify or even mitigate it. That should go without saying, though I know it doesn't."

If anyone knows of a way to make that any clearer, do let me know.

So now we come to what Andrew Sullivan and others told their readers that I argued. Announcing at the start that "I really have to try restrain my anger here", Sullivan quickly accused me of spreading "Islamist propaganda". Arguing that US intervention in the Muslim world both before and after the 9/11 attack was noble and often beneficent - yes, he actually argued that with a straight face - he demands to know of me: "How can that legitimize a British citizen's brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London?" He then added: "The idea that this foul, religious bigotry . . . is some kind of legitimate protest against a fast-ending war is just perverse." He concludes with a real flourish: my "blindness to the savagery at the heart of Salafism", he decrees, "is very hard to understand, let alone forgive".

That I "legitimated" the London attack or argued it was a "legitimate protest" is as obvious a fabrication as it gets. Not only did I argue no such thing, and not only did I say the exact opposite of what Sullivan and others falsely attribute to me, but I expressly repudiated - in advance - the very claims they try to impose on me. Even vociferous critics of what I wrote, writing in neocon venues, understood this point ("I do find myself wanting to agree with Greenwald in arguing that this is an atrocious murder rather than an act of terror"). Does Sullivan actually think that people who argued that the London attack should not be called "terrorism" (like Chris Hayes), or who pointed out the role played by western aggression in motivating them (like former British soldier Joe Glenton), or who have long warned of "blowback" in the form of such attacks (like the CIA and Pentagon), are remotely arguing that the attack was justified? Sullivan's behavior evinces a blatant inability or refusal to critique what I wrote without distorting it beyond all recognition.

So self-evident was Sullivan's Friday night bad conduct here that, within hours, numerous people had harshly condemned it. Law professor Kevin Jon Heller wrote: "Sullivan distorts Greenwald's argument beyond all recognition; I can only assume deliberately." University of Chicago Professor Harold Pollack complained that he "shouldn't have to click past Sullivan's angry post to see that Greenwald labelled [the] beheading 'barbaric and horrendous'". One of Sullivan's readers wrote him a lengthy and very astute email, published in full here, explaining to him that "your fundamental misreading of Greenwald's column is succinctly stated in your sentence: 'How can that [U.S. history in the Mideast] legitimize a British citizen's brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London?' Greenwald never remotely said that."

Now we arrive at the broader points that I think are raised by all of this. Contrary to Professor Heller's suggestion, I actually don't think that Sullivan's flagrant misrepresentations of what I wrote were deliberate. I definitely do think that about Jeffrey Goldberg and other various neocon smear artists who spent the last couple of days endlessly and loudly accusing me of being a pro-Terror, US-blaming Terrorist-lover, Jew-hating Terror-apologist and all the other tired neocon clichés that have been hurled at anyone and everyone over the last decade who questions the Mandated Narratives about "Islamic Terror", the US and Israel. Willfully smearing people as pro-Terrorists in order to deter free and rational discussions of US and Israeli aggression is what they do. It's their function, their chosen tactic. One expects that from them. It's just part of the landscape. Had it been confined to that crowd, I barely would have noticed, let alone responded. They and their deceitful smear tactics ceased being effective eight or nine years ago. Nobody cares anymore.

But Sullivan's behavior here is more interesting and revealing. He's certainly smart enough to comprehend the points being made, so that's not the problem. Amazingly, as his reader pointed out, Sullivan - a mere ten days ago - himself sought to defend President Obama (his life's mission) in the Benghazi controversy by posting an article in the American Prospect arguing as follows:


Benghazi was not a terrorist act. Or an act of terror. Or an act of terrorism . . . . So why wasn't Benghazi terrorism? Because the people targeted weren't civilians."

That's exactly the argument I raised about the London attack that sent Sullivan into spasms of moral denunciation. Does denying that the Benghazi attack was "an act of terror" mean that one is justifying it? Sullivan answered that very question when he quoted that same Benghazi article as explaining: "That doesn't make their deaths any less tragic or painful for their families, but it's the truth. Nor is a CIA outpost a civilian target." Indeed, as I documented, the only standards that could be used to support the choice of an off-duty solider in London as a target to kill are the standards promulgated by the US (which I vehemently reject) that holds that we are "at war", that "the entire globe is a battlefield", and that it's legitimate to kill anyone suspected of being a combatant in that "war" no matter where they are located or what they are doing at the time they are targeted for killing.

So Sullivan not only understands my point here, but grants himself license to make it himself when doing so advances his cause of praising and defending Obama. What, then, accounts for the distortions and sustained rage that ensues every time I make these arguments - not just from Sullivan but generally?

I think the answer lies in the very first sentence Sullivan wrote when responding to my column: "I really have to try restrain my anger here." It's an intensely emotional reaction, not a rational one. He, and so many others, are deeply invested on a psychological and personal level in protecting the narrative that Islam is a uniquely violent force in the world, that Muslim extremists pose a threat that nobody else poses, and that the US, the West and its allies (including Israel) are morally superior and more civilized than their adversaries, and their violence is more noble and elevated.

Labeling the violent acts of those Muslim Others as "terrorism" - but never our own - is a key weapon used to propagate this worldview. The same is true of the tactic that depicts their violence against us as senseless, primitive, savage and without rational cause, while glorifying our own violence against them as noble, high-minded, benevolent and civilized (we slaughter them with shiny, high-tech drones, cluster bombs, jet fighters and cruise missiles, while they use meat cleavers and razor blades). These are the core propagandistic premises used to sustain the central narrative on which the War on Terror has depended from the start (and, by the way, have been the core premises of imperialism for centuries). That is why those most invested in defending and glorifying this War on Terror become so enraged when those premises are challenged, and it's why they feel a need to use any smears and distortions (he's justifying terrorism!) to discredit those who do. As Sullivan's reader perfectly put it in his email:


"The emotional intensity with which you demand that the London attack be described as 'terrorism' (as opposed to 'horrific act of violence,' 'killing,' 'hack to death,' 'barbaric and horrendous act,' etc., as Greenwald writes) only confirms Greenwald's point that it is important to define what 'terrorism' means, particularly because certain folks have an emotional, political and/or legal reason for insisting on its usage. What free thinker would want to shout down that discussion? Respectfully, that is 'very hard to understand, let alone forgive.'"

But as was clear from the furor that erupted after the debate over the anti-Muslim views of Sam Harris and company, and as is demonstrated again by Sullivan's unhinged reaction here to what I wrote, the need to maintain the belief that Islam is a uniquely grave danger in the world - and that western violence against them is superior to their violence against the west - is one that is incredibly deep-seated and visceral. That seems to be true for several independent reasons.

First, it's a by-product of base tribalism. Americans and westerners have been relentlessly bombarded with the message that We are the Noble and Innocent Victims and those Muslims are the Evil, Primitive, Savage Aggressors, so that's what many people are trained to believe, and view any challenge to that as an assault on their core tribalistic convictions. The defining tribalistic belief that Our Side is Superior (and our violence thus inherently more noble than theirs) has been stoked by political leaders since politics began to sustain support for their aggression and entrench their own power. It's a potent drive - something humans instinctively want to believe - and is therefore one that is easily manipulated by skillful propagandists.

Second, all sorts of agendas are advanced by maintaining these premises in place. As the scholar Remi Brulin has documented, "terrorism" in its recent incarnation was designed by the US to justify all of the violence it wanted to do in the world from Central America to the Middle East, and by Israel to universalize the vicious and intractable conflicts it has with its Arab neighbors (our wars aren't just our fights with them over land; it's a global struggle to stop a plague that is also your fight: against Terrorism). A great new book by Harvard's Lisa Stampnitzky makes the argument indicated by its title: "Disciplining Terror: How Experts Invented 'Terrorism'". The functional meaninglessness of the term "terrorism" and its highly manipulative exploitation are vital to several political agendas. That fact renders the guardians of those agendas furious when the conventional and highly emotional understanding of the term is questioned, and especially when it's suggested that anti-western violence isn't best understood as the by-product of unique pathologies in Islam but rather in the context of decades of western aggression toward that region.

Indeed, most of the responses to my argument ignored the questions I posed about the definition of "terrorism" and instead rested on pure irrational rage: this was a Muslim who used a knife to kill a westerner; of course it was terrorism (or, as Sullivan put it, "If we cannot call a man who does that in the name of God and finishes by warning his fellow citizens 'You will never be safe' a terrorist, who would fit that description, apart, of course, in Glenn's view, Barack Obama?"). Or, alternatively, critics of what I wrote simply fabricated what I argued (he blames the west and thinks the Terrorists have no agency!), or spewed outrage at the mere suggestion that anything the west does is comparable to the violence we saw on the London street. As his emailer put it about the rational discussion Sullivan allowed himself about whether the Benghazi attack was terrorism: "Imagine if someone then responded to you pointing out that fact (like Greenwald did) with the type of sanctimonious outburst that you showed here. Would you have even taken it seriously?"

Third, and I think most significantly, there is a very potent human need to deny responsibility for our own actions and avoid being shown the worst attributes of our own behavior, and a corresponding "kill-the-messenger" impulse aimed at those who want to focus on (rather than hide) all of that. It's not irrelevant that Sullivan (along with Jeffrey Goldberg, Tom Friedman and Christopher Hitchens) was one of the world's most vocal, most passionate, and most effective media cheerleaders for the attack on Iraq (which he yesterday acknowledged was "a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe" even while justifying it on the ground that it "removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet"). But Sullivan was not only that: he also led the way (along with Hitchens) in implanting in the public mind the idea that the US and the UK were leading a Grand Civilization War, and he spouted some of the most repellent rhetoric of demonization against anyone who uttered any protest.

Sullivan, to his credit, has since apologized for his leading public role in all of that. But as his response to me (and other recent posts) make clear, the Civilization Warrior who accuses people of being sympathetic to The Terrorists is still always lurking close to the surface ("Islam's fanatical side – from the Taliban to the Tsarnaevs – is more murderous than most", he wrote last month). I don't think it's hard to see why he, along with so many others, clings so fervently, even instinctively, to these precepts.

No matter how many evil things your government does, no matter how many innocent people are killed by the political leader you deliriously adore, no matter how much blood you have on your own hands for exploiting your media platform to publicly cheer for mass violence and slaughter, all of that can be redeemed, or at least mitigated, only if there is Someone Else Over There who you can point to as The Supreme and Unique Evil. Sure, we make mistakes and do some bad things. But we're not like them: the Ultimate Savages. The Primitive Islamic Hordes. The Terrorists. That's why it's urgent that these designations of special evil (Terrorist) be reserved exclusively for Them: only then can we elevate ourselves.

Once that framework is implanted, then our violence is understandable, noble, well-intentioned, necessitated by their pure evil. By stark contrast, their violence is sub-human, senseless, and utterly unrelated to anything we do. Just marvel at the visceral and psychologically revealing language that Sullivan, after ennobling western violence, uses for the London attack [his emphasis]: "terrorism in its most animal-like form, created and sustained entirely by religious fanaticism which would find any excuse to murder, destroy and oppress Muslims and non-Muslims in the name of God." This is the very personal need that bolsters this worldview and prompts such rage when it is challenged: the need to view oneself in a better light, to avoid the reality of what one supports and enables.

I used to wonder how people like Sullivan and other Americans and westerners, who continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism by their own side, could possibly spend so much time pointing to others and depicting them - those people over there - as the embodiment of violence and savage aggression. But at some point I realized that it's precisely because they continuously justify so much violence and aggression from their side that they have such a boundless compulsion to depict others as the Uniquely Primitive and Violent Evil. That's how they absolve themselves. It's how they distract themselves from the reality of what they support and what their governments do in the world. And it's why few things produce quite as much personal resentment and anger than demanding that they first gaze into a mirror before issuing these absolutist denunciations about others.

UPDATE

For reasons I'll let the Guardian explain, all of the comments to all of the columns and articles posted on the London attack were deleted, and the comment sections then closed. I hope that won't happen to today's column here, as the topics discussed here are not really about the attack but the broader debate about terrorism. But it's possible that it will happen again. Those wanting to post comments should be aware of this possibility before spending your time and energy to write one.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 01:24 PM
He spends a lot of time trying to rationalize the "left" neocon, chickenhawk propagandist.

Here's what Warlord tweeted GG:

ggreenwald (https://twitter.com/ggreenwald) spent a lot of time pondering why Sullivan writes like he does. Shorter version: He's a propagandist owned by certain interests

enhanced_deficit
05-26-2013, 01:32 PM
Andrew Sullivan, terrorism, and the art of distortion

Challenging the conventional western narrative on terrorism produces unique amounts of rage and bile. It's worth examining why

Glenn Greenwald

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/25/andrew-sullivan-distortion-terrorism-woolwich


Very informative article.

Greenwald is one of the very few remaining classic liberal journalists in media that have clarity about current foreign policy and intellectual capacity to debunk propaganada of much of coroprate/neocon controlled media hacks of so called Left and Right.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 01:37 PM
Very informative article.

Greenwald is one of the very few remaining classic liberal journalists in media that have clarity about current foreign policy and intellectual capacity to debunk propaganada of much of coroprate/neocon controlled media hacks of so called Left and Right.

Not really that informative. Why doesn't he use his journalist abilities to dig into Sullivan's finances and who's paying the piper to spout this crap and find out whether he has any links to un-intelligent services?

Or is Sullivan's posture really down to some random incoherent, self-delusion that he is constantly blind to?

enhanced_deficit
05-26-2013, 02:25 PM
Not really that informative. Why doesn't he use his journalist abilities to dig into Sullivan's finances and who's paying the piper to spout this crap and find out whether he has any links to un-intelligent services?

Or is Sullivan's posture really down to some random incoherent, self-delusion that he is constantly blind to?


It was for me. Were you informed of key observations and arguments in this article? I had also not seen the image of Afghan children in this article, US media that is in bed with Obama puppet masters never showed it.

I can cite many factoids that would be informative for most, this is just one glimpse of Greenwald's grasp of facts past and present:



Third, and I think most significantly, there is a very potent human need to deny responsibility for our own actions and avoid being shown the worst attributes of our own behavior, and a corresponding "kill-the-messenger" impulse aimed at those who want to focus on (rather than hide) all of that. It's not irrelevant that Sullivan (along with Jeffrey Goldberg, Tom Friedman and Christopher Hitchens) was one of the world's most vocal, most passionate, and most effective media cheerleaders for the attack on Iraq (which he yesterday acknowledged was "a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe" even while justifying it on the ground that it "removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet"). But Sullivan was not only that: he also led the way (along with Hitchens) in implanting in the public mind the idea that the US and the UK were leading a Grand Civilization War, and he spouted some of the most repellent rhetoric of demonization against anyone who uttered any protest.

Sullivan, to his credit, has since apologized for his leading public role in all of that.


I try not to focus on persons but their ideas and conduct. GG is doing a rebuttal of some emotional or angry outburst of AS, don't know why he should investigate his finances. I have just general idea about sullivan, he comes across as somewhat intelligent but often erratic and perhaps even overly emotional, unstable in his thinking. Andrew Sullivan has done informative work on gay marriage/LGBT social issues but his foreign policy stances have been pretty ignorant,immoral even though he has apologized since. In some of his views I read, he seemed closer to being a demagogue than a free thinker in rational command of facts.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 02:29 PM
Yes he's a good writer but like I said ED he won't accept the possibility that they're compromised neocons with an agenda.

They dont actually have an intellectual justification for their positions: it's paid propaganda and that's what motivates them to write their bile.

You dont need 100 paragraphs of detailed analysis to work this out. GG assumes these are "honest" but "wrong" people and trying to rationalize their insane ramblings.

Here's the shorter version: "They say x because they incorrectly think y. Oh how terrible. But nevermind. He's apologized. All credit to Andrew. He's a really nice guy."

But do they really incorrectly think y? And why must they always need to apologize? These guys are experienced journalists with college degree's. They know exactly what they're doing and who they're doing it for. GG is trying to justify it as some perverse conclusion when it's just paid propaganda. Follow the money.

enhanced_deficit
05-26-2013, 02:38 PM
Yes he's a good writer but like I said ED he won't accept the possibility that they're compromised neocons with an agenda.

They dont actually have an intellectual justification for their positions: it's paid propaganda and that's what motivates them to write their bile.

You dont need 100 paragraphs of detailed analysis to work this out. GG assumes these are "honest" but "wrong" people and trying to rationalize their insane ramblings.

Who are "they"? Are you talking about anti-war Greenwald or reformed neocon Sullivan here:


they're compromised neocons with an agenda.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. What is your view on the cause of attack on UK soldier and what steps should UK take as a solution?

Greenwald has put forward very insightful ideas and I agree with his foreign policy views for most part. If you disagree with Greenwald's views, can you cite anything specific from his statements that you find not lofically ort factually sound?

If you charging GG with being too verbose, then that would be a different issue. I was referring to the substance.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 02:41 PM
Who are "they"? Are you talking about anti-war Greenwald or reformed neocon Sullivan here:



I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. What is your view on the cause of attack on UK soldier and what steps should UK take as a solution?

Greenwald has put forward very insightful ideas and I agree with his foreign policy views for most part. If you disagree with Greenwald's views, can you cite anything specific from his statements that you find not lofically ort factually sound?

If you charging GG with being too verbose, then that would be a different issue. I was referring to the substance.

The guy was an intelligence asset as usual. MI5 recruit. I dont know why he did it. There's doubtless more details to come out.

"They" = the neocons or the people who are writing and smearing anyone who questions the WAR on TERROR.

Yes, GG does a good job at exposing their intellectually lightweight arguments but they're not actual principled or intellectually sound arguments in the first place. They're designed for a specific propaganda purpose and being propagated on behalf of certain interests. Greenwald is attacking their arguments as if they're held by well meaning people who are just darn misguided. We know they're not. These guys know exactly what they're doing when they write this crap.

enhanced_deficit
05-26-2013, 02:51 PM
The guy was an intelligence asset as usual. MI5 recruit. I dont know why he did it. There's doubtless more details to come out.

"They" = the neocons or the people who are writing and smearing anyone who questions the WAR on TERROR.

Yes, GG does a good job at exposing their intellectually lightweight arguments but they're not actual principled or intellectually sound arguments in the first place. They're designed for a specific propaganda purpose and being propagated on behalf of certain interests. Greenwald is attacking their arguments as if they're held by well meaning people who are just darn misguided. We know they're not. These guys know exactly what they're doing when they write this crap.


Nope, GG is pretty clear in the article that AS not just a misguided dope but is painting this as a calculated demagoguery pitch:



But Sullivan's behavior here is more interesting and revealing. He's certainly smart enough to comprehend the points being made, so that's not the problem.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 02:52 PM
Does GG really believe AS is just some ignorant buffoon who is always wrong and who has to always apologize or is there a reason he writes this stuff?

He never goes further with it. Perhaps he should. Follow the money. Who pays him and what their agenda is.

Weekly Standard for example loses money every year but has a full staff and offices and calls for constant war.

Why do they never ask these questions?

enhanced_deficit
05-26-2013, 02:58 PM
Does GG really believe AS is just some ignorant buffoon who is always wrong and who has to always apologize or is there a reason he writes this stuff?

He never goes further with it. Perhaps he should. Follow the money. Who pays him and what their agenda is.

Weekly Standard for example loses money every year but has a full staff and offices and calls for constant war.

Why do they never ask these questions?

All right, it is clear now. You are not opposed to GG's views but preferred him to track AS's ( and I assume of other neocon media outfits) financial connections instead of trying to offer a lengthy rebuttal.

BTW, have any take on question I asked:

What is your view on the cause of attack on UK soldier and what steps should UK take as a solution?

angelatc
05-26-2013, 03:03 PM
Greenwald is the most principled progressive on the planet.

He has the right to write whatever he wants. if you want to write articles about the fact that many popular magazines are, in fact, vanity special interest publications, then you go right ahead. But bitching because Greenwald isn't going off on some logical fail on your behalf is silly.

Warlord, lay off the opium. It's making you a little crazy.

Now, what I actually came to the thread to ask was if anybody noticed that the ex CIA staffer he quoted wasn't Scheuer? That's good news. It means there are at least 3 of them we can quote now.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 03:04 PM
All right, it is clear now. You are not opposed to GG's views but preferred him to track AS's ( and I assume of other neocon media outfits) financial connections instead of trying to offer a lengthy rebuttal.

BTW, have any take on question I asked:

What is your view on the cause of attack on UK soldier and what steps should UK take as a solution?

Addressed here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415653-Glenn-Greenwald-on-the-London-killing&p=5045396&viewfull=1#post5045396

New details are emerging every day and you expect Warlord to have come to firm conclusions?

Yes, it's very easy to write 500 paragraphs refuting the latest neocon screed. An 8 year old could do it if they're smart enough. That's the problem. Glenn can spend all day doing it and all AS has to do is apologize and all is well again in the wonderful world of the Media. Well duh. AS is likely a British agent or has some other financial backing (military industrial complex) that forces him to write the propaganda he does and he knows exactly what he's doing.

Who does AS work for? He got fired from dailybeast didnt he? And now he's on his "own" as an intrepid independent journalist. Who is paying the bills?

Why is it left to Warlord to ask these questions when GG is a professional journalist and can investigate such matters? Or is he just happy writing "rebuttals" for eternity and not investigating the powerful propaganda and the interests behind it? He does a good job at exposing their arguments and techniques but goes no further.

Peace Piper
05-26-2013, 03:08 PM
UPDATE

For reasons I'll let the Guardian explain, all of the comments to all of the columns and articles posted on the London attack were deleted, and the comment sections then closed. I hope that won't happen to today's column here, as the topics discussed here are not really about the attack but the broader debate about terrorism. But it's possible that it will happen again. Those wanting to post comments should be aware of this possibility before spending your time and energy to write one.

Hmmm. That's only the second time that I can remember that the entire comment section has been deleted from a GG article. The first was 3 days ago-

Was the London killing of a British soldier 'terrorism'?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-terrorism-blowback
There were over 3,000 comments deleted. GCHQ, MI5 and 6 must be working overtime.

The number of comments on that article might have set a record.


Too bad Harry and Adam aren't around anymore. They could fix anything.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7038/spooks408therussianharr.jpg

It will be interesting to see what the Guardian posts about this.

enhanced_deficit
05-26-2013, 03:09 PM
Addressed here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415653-Glenn-Greenwald-on-the-London-killing&p=5045396&viewfull=1#post5045396

New details are emerging every day and you expect Warlord to have come to firm conclusions?

Yes, it's very easy to write 500 paragraphs refuting the latest neocon screed. An 8 year old could do it if they're smart enough. That's the problem. Glenn can spend all day doing it and all AS has to do is apologize and all is well again in the wonderful world of the Media. Well duh. AS is likely a British agent.




The guy was an intelligence asset as usual. MI5 recruit. I dont know why he did it. There's doubtless more details to come out.

"They" = the neocons or the people who are writing and smearing anyone who questions the WAR on TERROR.

Ok thank you for clarifying.

UK media had reported that they tried to recruit him, did not know they were successful.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 03:12 PM
Ok thank you for clarifying.

UK media had reported that they tried to recruit him, did not know they were successful.

That little nugget came out this morning. New details every day and you want one of the most successful Warlord's on RPF to have reached a conclusion.

Also see my edit.. who does AS work for?

Peace Piper
05-26-2013, 03:15 PM
Why is it left to Warlord to ask these questions when GG is a professional journalist and can investigate such matters? Or is he just happy writing "rebuttals" for eternity and not investigating the powerful propaganda and the interests behind it? He does a good job at exposing their arguments and techniques but goes no further.

You compare yourself to Glenn Greenwald?

What a hoot.

Before you stumble into such nonsense maybe do a little research. (http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/) *There* are some "rebuttals" for ya.

Warlord
05-26-2013, 03:17 PM
You compare yourself to Glenn Greenwald?

What a hoot.

Before you stumble into such nonsense maybe do a little research. (http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/) *There* are some "rebuttals" for ya.

Warlord is a humble Warlord not a journalist. I'm just saying he doesn't go far enough in questioning why these guys write what they write and who they work for, who's paying their salaries/advances/whatever. They're not misguided and know exactly what they're doing. I suspect GG does know this too but it's a code of the media not to ask so he doesn't.

angelatc
05-26-2013, 03:40 PM
Warlord is a humble Warlord not a journalist. I'm just saying he doesn't go far enough in questioning why these guys write what they write and who they work for, who's paying their salaries/advances/whatever. They're not misguided and know exactly what they're doing. I suspect GG does know this too but it's a code of the media not to ask so he doesn't.


It's not a code of media - it's a logic fail.

kcchiefs6465
05-27-2013, 11:44 AM
Great read.

Ender
05-27-2013, 01:19 PM
Greenwald is on the money and has my total respect.

He is one of the few journalists that goes for the truth, no matter how costly it might be to himself; he is the progressive version of Ben Swann.

If you keep up with both of these guys, the truth becomes pretty obvious.

BlackTerrel
05-28-2013, 12:37 PM
Second, despite the self-serving bewilderment that is typically expressed whenever western nations are the targets rather than perpetrators of violence - why would anyone possibly be so monstrous and savage as to want to attack us this way? - the answer is actually well-known and well-documented. As explained by the CIA ("blowback"), the Pentagon (they "do not 'hate our freedom,' but rather, they hate our policies"), former CIA agents ("we could try invading, occupying and droning Muslim countries a little less, and see if that helps. Maybe prop up fewer corrupt and tyrannical Muslim regimes")

I don't really agree with the blowback definition here. He never suffered any of the grievances mentioned - he was born and raised in England and given all the rights that all Englishmen have. Why would he want to attack his native country?


spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well.

I want to examine this part because it would seem to me that this article which is largely being praised here actually goes against the majority view. AF you believe in "9/11 truth" right? I believe most here do. I don't remember a single violent act committed by a Muslim on Western soil that hasn't had many (likely most) forum members claim it was a false flag.

So when Greenwald says "ensures that those western nations will be attacked" you disagree with him right? We have had no blowback or acts of Muslim violence on American soil. Have we? When?

BlackTerrel
05-28-2013, 12:40 PM
Hmmm. That's only the second time that I can remember that the entire comment section has been deleted from a GG article.

This is for legal reasons. The comment sections on those articles had lots of anti-Islam comments which is illegal under English law (posts attacking Jews, blacks, Asians etc..) are also illegal.

There have already been a number of people arrested for anti-Muslim posts in the wake of this event

http://www.examiner.com/article/anti-islamic-comments-after-woolwich-murder-of-british-soldier-leads-to-arrests

BlackTerrel
06-05-2013, 08:08 PM
So when Greenwald says "ensures that those western nations will be attacked" you disagree with him right? We have had no blowback or acts of Muslim violence on American soil. Have we? When?

Bump. Is Greenwald right or wrong on this? What are the examples of blowback that Greenwald describes?

angelatc
06-05-2013, 08:11 PM
Bump. Is Greenwald right or wrong on this? What are the examples of blowback that Greenwald describes?

Boston.

BlackTerrel
06-10-2013, 08:53 PM
Boston.

Except many here (most?) think that was a false flag. Why aren't those people calling out Greenwald? He must be wrong if these are false flags right?

Anti Federalist
06-10-2013, 09:04 PM
Except many here (most?) think that was a false flag. Why aren't those people calling out Greenwald? He must be wrong if these are false flags right?

Because it is much more nuanced than that.

There have been a number of "jihadist" attacks, Ft. Hood, Boston, that incident in Detroit, the "shoe bomber", the "underwear bomber", just off the top of my head.

Some are "real" attacks, some are guided and assisted by the FedCoats, and some are outright fabrications by the FedCoats.

Regardless of if he is right or wrong on the source, he is spot on the result.

As his heroic efforts to bring Ed Snowden's information to light clearly shows.

Regardless of what he may think of blowback or false flags, he had my support before and he most certainly does now.

Nor does it change the underlying fact that, even if ALL those "attacks" were real and organic jihadist terror, I stand almost zero chance of being killed or injured by them.

I stand an eight to ten times greater chance to be killed by law enforcement.

That number would be substantially higher if I were a black man, like you.

Warlord
06-10-2013, 09:54 PM
Except many here (most?) think that was a false flag. Why aren't those people calling out Greenwald? He must be wrong if these are false flags right?

Warlord has called him out plenty of times. Probably in this very thread. But he's still a good journalist.

BlackTerrel
06-11-2013, 11:08 PM
Because it is much more nuanced than that.

There have been a number of "jihadist" attacks, Ft. Hood, Boston, that incident in Detroit, the "shoe bomber", the "underwear bomber", just off the top of my head.

Some are "real" attacks, some are guided and assisted by the FedCoats, and some are outright fabrications by the FedCoats.

Which ones are real attacks? I don't remember a single time when a Muslim was accused of violence where either a majority or a loud minority here haven't said it was obviously a false flag


Regardless of if he is right or wrong on the source, he is spot on the result.

He is claiming the result is obvious. He is saying there is no doubt that Muslims will attack Westerners in the UK and US due to our actions. That is the entire premise of the article you posted.

Many here must think he is wrong. Muslims NEVER attack us. Our foreign policy does not create terrorists.

enhanced_deficit
06-11-2013, 11:44 PM
Warlord has called him out plenty of times. Probably in this very thread. But he's still a good journalist.

Warlord has not demonstrated anywhere in this thread if Greenwald was inaccurate or unjudiciou. Ed is still not clear what GG was called out for exactly lol

Warlord
06-11-2013, 11:51 PM
Warlord has not demonstrated anywhere in this thread if Greenwald was inaccurate or unjudiciou. Ed is still not clear what GG was called out for exactly lol

1st page of this very thread Warlord said "not that informative". Perhaps ED should learn to read

Warlord
06-12-2013, 12:05 AM
ED / BT :

Check out these posts on GG:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?416913-Glenn-Greenwald-TV-interviews-on-NSA-spying-programs&p=5063393&viewfull=1#post5063393

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?417148-Glenn-Greenwald-with-Stephanopoulos-Today-Expect-more-Revelations-*video*&p=5065147&viewfull=1#post5065147

Warlord's cousin weighed in (Greewald doesn't like Thatcher but he does)

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?410572-Greenwald-on-Thatcher&p=4964717&viewfull=1#post4964717

There's loads of criticism although notice it's polite. He's still one of the few decent journalists around speaking truth to power so that's commendable regardless of his views/theories.

He's really good destroying the MSM talking heads. He's obviously so much smarter.