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green73
05-22-2013, 10:54 AM
Two people were today believed to have been shot by armed police after hacking a man to death with a machete in front of dozens of eyewitnesses.

Police were tonight treating the incident as a terror attack and Home Secretary Theresa May had called a meeting of the government's emergency cabinet committee Cobra.

The soldier was attacked with knives and meat cleavers while he was wearing a Help for Heroes t-shirt in Woolwich, south-east London.

It is thought that the two men waited around for 20 minutes until police arrived and then tried to attack them - but were swiftly shot by armed officers.

Eyewitnesses said the 'crazed' men launched a ferocious attack and were 'hacking at him, chopping him, cutting him.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329089/Two-men-shot-armed-police-hacking-soldier-Help-Heroes-T-shirt-death-machetes-busy-London-street.html

Update from this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415233-VIDEO-Man-who-hacked-soldier-to-death):


I found a slightly longer video, there was a big part cut out before he walked back up the street:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/news/4938509/Woolwich-killing-Suspect-speaks-at-scene.html

"I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same."

"You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don't care about you!"

"You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street, when we start (blasting? busting?) our guns? Think your politicians are gonna die? No, it's gonna be the average guy, like you. And your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back, so we can - so you can all live in peace!"

tod evans
05-22-2013, 10:59 AM
Ban knifes...

Oh, wait........They already did in London...

green73
05-22-2013, 11:04 AM
There are reports that they beheaded him.

tod evans
05-22-2013, 11:07 AM
There are reports that they beheaded him.

Ban head?

Warlord
05-22-2013, 11:11 AM
They decapitated him is what the BBC is saying.

www.bbc.co.uk/news

Anti Federalist
05-22-2013, 11:11 AM
Ban terrorism.

Ban steel.

Ban bad thoughts.

Oh FFS, ban something!

oyarde
05-22-2013, 11:14 AM
South London is 11 boroughs split by the Thames . If anyone attacks me with a cleaver , they will get mine. The world is full of scum , big cities are scum magnets.

green73
05-22-2013, 11:19 AM
Ban head?

http://winnipegpublibrary.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/snob11.gif

Sola_Fide
05-22-2013, 11:21 AM
This oughta confirm the idiot gallery about the need for more security and more war.

Cowlesy
05-22-2013, 11:22 AM
Diversity, is our greatest strength.

RIP for the poor fellow. Hope the attackers are burning somewhere.

mczerone
05-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Two people were today believed to have been shot by armed police after hacking a man to death with a machete in front of dozens of eyewitnesses.

Hey Piers Morgan: why do you support keeping these DOZENS of people from owning weapons that could have ended this attack after the first strike? Do you like seeing decapitated veterans in your streets? Do you support terrorists?

Let's look at the statistics for machete-decapitation-deaths on England's streets versus American streets. England:1 USA:0. Do you dispute those facts, Mr. Morgan?

mczerone
05-22-2013, 11:28 AM
Diversity, is our greatest strength.

RIP for the poor fellow. Hope the attackers are burning somewhere.

Did they incinerate them?

WM_in_MO
05-22-2013, 11:29 AM
Ban sharp objects

Brian4Liberty
05-22-2013, 11:34 AM
The assailants had a gun. Good thing that Britain outlaws guns. It took twenty minutes for the Police to get there. Thank God no bystanders had guns. Someone may have been hurt.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303

People carrying out the attack were heard to say Allahu Akbar [God is Great], said our political editor.

On Twitter, the Mayor of London Boris Johnson described the attack as a "sickening deluded and unforgivable act of violence".

London Ambulance Service confirmed one man had been found dead at the scene.

It said two men had been taken to hospital, one in a serious condition.

One of the men was airlifted from the scene, and another was taken away by road ambulance

A spokesperson said an air ambulance and four crews had attended the scene.

Witnesses reported by the Press Association said two people had been shot after armed police were called to an incident in which a man was attacked with a machete-style knife.

One witness, identified only as James, said two men had attacked another man, aged about 20, who was wearing a T-shirt of military charity Help for Heroes.

"These two guys were crazed. They were just animals. They dragged him from the pavement and dumped his body in the middle of the road and left his body there," he told LBC radio.

He said after the "horrendous" attack, the two men, who were also in their 20s, stood around, waving knives and a gun, and asked people to take pictures of them "as if they wanted to be on TV or something".

"They were oblivious to anything, they were more worried about having their photo taken, running up and down the road," he said.

Thomas, a witness who contacted the BBC, said: "I got there minutes after it happened because you could hear gunshots from Woolwich High Street.

"Basically two men carried out an axe attack on a young army cadet walking along the street, by the looks of things the police responded and then shot them in front of the public, at the same time I couldn't really tell if the cadet was fatally or not hurt as police were crowded around him."

Brian4Liberty
05-22-2013, 11:38 AM
Also on the BBC, this may be a related story. It seems that Muslim immigrants have been rioting in Sweden for the past three days because a machete wielding guy was shot by Police.


Rioters have lit fires and stoned emergency services in the suburbs of Stockholm for the third night in a row after a man was shot dead by police.

Incidents were reported in at least nine suburbs of the Swedish capital and police made eight arrests.

On Sunday night, more than 100 cars were set alight, Swedish media report.

Police in the deprived, largely immigrant suburb of Husby shot a man dead last week after he reportedly threatened to kill them with a machete.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22622909

green73
05-22-2013, 11:42 AM
This just in. PM Cameron to return to London from France.

Yup, they are going ape shit over this as expected...

oyarde
05-22-2013, 11:43 AM
Did they incinerate them?

That is kind of what it feels like when you are hit with a hail of bullets.

oyarde
05-22-2013, 11:44 AM
Also on the BBC, this may be a related story. It seems that Muslim immigrants have been rioting in Sweden for the past three days because a machete wielding guy was shot by Police.

Not a wise decision for the dude with the machete.

pcosmar
05-22-2013, 11:57 AM
Diversity, is our greatest strength.


Yeah,, it's diversity.. That is the problem.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugNeWkeGYm8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUVtdKsc8ww

HigherVision
05-22-2013, 12:04 PM
Haha Britain sucks

sluggo
05-22-2013, 12:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EROXP8JDG9M&feature=share

green73
05-22-2013, 12:07 PM
Video: One of the attackers speaks out after the attack.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-22/exclusive-video-man-with-bloodied-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

eta: ITV's site has crashed.

ravedown
05-22-2013, 12:12 PM
UKIP just got a bump...as bad as it is.

Cowlesy
05-22-2013, 12:12 PM
Yeah,, it's diversity.. That is the problem.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugNeWkeGYm8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUVtdKsc8ww

Oh spare me the righteous indignation. Curiously, I didn't see anyone running down people with a car and going "'We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you" in it.


But I suppose we just don't understand the murdering savages' side of the story. Really, they're the victims in this and it's really our fault for not helping them assimilate to British culture.

:rolleyes:

HigherVision
05-22-2013, 12:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EROXP8JDG9M&feature=share

Holy fuck, that is seriously shocking. He just stands there talking normally after brutally killing a man, like it's nothing! What the fuck that is messed up

RickyJ
05-22-2013, 12:17 PM
The PTB will never let a crime like this go to waste, they will use it to further the West's hatred of Muslims.

pcosmar
05-22-2013, 12:18 PM
Holy fuck, that is seriously shocking. He just stands there talking normally after brutally killing a man, like it's nothing! What the fuck that is messed up

I have to wonder,, from his manner and familiarity if they knew the victim and had perhaps recognized him.

Perhaps his 'service" in other lands was not forgotten.

Demigod
05-22-2013, 12:19 PM
Yeah,, it's diversity.. That is the problem.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUVtdKsc8ww

How are football fans responsible for some immigrants cutting a soldiers head in London.English football used to be interesting until they went with the whole "modern" football thing and now it is hard to even watch.

HigherVision
05-22-2013, 12:19 PM
I have to wonder,, from his manner and familiarity if they knew the victim and had perhaps recognized him.

Perhaps his 'service" in other lands was not forgotten.

I just think it's crazy how calm the dude is as he stands there. I mean you'd expect him to be at least shaken by the fact that he just killed a guy, no he just casually talks about what he did like it was nothing.

RickyJ
05-22-2013, 12:21 PM
I just think it's crazy how calm the dude is as he stands there. I mean you'd expect him to be at least shaken by the fact that he just killed a guy, no he just casually talks about what he did like it was nothing.

I highly doubt it was the first person he killed like this.

pcosmar
05-22-2013, 12:23 PM
Oh spare me the righteous indignation. :

No,, Violence and and stupidity is not race or religious specific.

and Racism is not one sided.

There are a whole lot of violent and stupid white folks there too.

and as I have said before,, get out of the cities. London,, New York or Detroit makes no difference.
Get out.

HigherVision
05-22-2013, 12:28 PM
No,, Violence and and stupidity is not race or religious specific.

and Racism is not one sided.

There are a whole lot of violent and stupid white folks there too.

and as I have said before,, get out of the cities. London,, New York or Detroit makes no difference.
Get out.

That sucks. Why should we have to abandon our cities which were the site of so much great progress & history? I mean I agree that we do but we shouldn't have to.

As far as violence not being race specific though, that's not entirely true. Certain groups are statistically much more likely to commit violent crimes than others. However whether this is a result of race or class I think is debatable. Also though I agree that military imperialism is a form of mass violence largely perpetuated by whites that goes officially unrecognized.

pcosmar
05-22-2013, 12:32 PM
How are football fans responsible for some immigrants cutting a soldiers head in London.English football used to be interesting until they went with the whole "modern" football thing and now it is hard to even watch.

It was posted as nothing more than stupid and pointless violence.. and to point out that it is NOT just "Mooslems".

There are stupid and violent folks all over just looking for an excuse to be stupid and violent.

and over something as ridiculous as a game.

sluggo
05-22-2013, 12:33 PM
I have to wonder,, from his manner and familiarity if they knew the victim and had perhaps recognized him.

Perhaps his 'service" in other lands was not forgotten.

That seems highly unlikely.

RickyJ
05-22-2013, 12:36 PM
This oughta confirm the idiot gallery about the need for more security and more war.

Bingo! The powers that be will use events like this to further their goals. Muslims are the enemy because a few of them are nutso don't you know? Never the mind the nutso Jews, they don't represent all Jews you know. Don't even try to apply that same logic to Muslims, that is just being a terrorist sympathizer.

pcosmar
05-22-2013, 12:37 PM
That sucks. Why should we have to abandon our cities which were the site of so much great progress & history? I mean I agree that we do but we shouldn't have to.

should or shouldn't have to is not the point.

I say it as survival advice. The shit is and will get worse. drastically so as conditions deteriorate.

Basic behavioral psychology will tell you that you do not want to be confined there. (too many rats in too small of a cage)

Brian4Liberty
05-22-2013, 12:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EROXP8JDG9M&feature=share

Based on that, it really wouldn't qualify as terrorism. But that's just mincing words. The pundits will insist that it be called "terrorism", but this is more a politically motivated murder. Terrorism attempts to scare entire populations with random attacks meant to inflict maximum casualties. This was very specific. Not that the terminology matters.

RickyJ
05-22-2013, 12:41 PM
should or shouldn't have to is not the point.

I say it as survival advice. The shit is and will get worse. drastically so as conditions deteriorate.

Basic behavioral psychology will tell you that you do not want to be confined there. (too many rats in too small of a cage)

I totally agree with you. If you don't survive then there will not be any fighting back later. First you must survive the initial collapse, then you will be available to fight back later.

HigherVision
05-22-2013, 12:57 PM
should or shouldn't have to is not the point.

I say it as survival advice. The shit is and will get worse. drastically so as conditions deteriorate.

Basic behavioral psychology will tell you that you do not want to be confined there. (too many rats in too small of a cage)

It wasn't like this before the welfare state. I mean by staying away from cities you're staying away from music, art, commerce, etc. It shouldn't be this way, I know that it is but that's why we should work on changing it.

pcosmar
05-22-2013, 01:01 PM
It wasn't like this before the welfare state.

You could put that is large multi-colored flashing letters.
I would say it is a result of socialism. a unfortunate side effect of the Industrial Revolution.

regardless of cause,, it is the present reality.

Tod
05-22-2013, 01:15 PM
I sent the following comment to the BBC for this article, although I highly doubt that it will be published (comments are moderated):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304


That spokesman is speaking nonsensical platitudes when he says that the police are the best in the world at protecting people. If the good citizens of Britain were allowed to exercise their natural right to self defense (which includes the right to carry firearms), it is quite possible that the two attackers could have been stopped as soon as they started.
My sincerest condolences to the family of the victim; I would expect that they will at some point be very angry with the British government for its complicity in this attack by rendering innocent people helpless.

Athan
05-22-2013, 01:24 PM
And here I am getting lectured by these english ocean crossing chavs giving me shit about my guns. America, it is time to:

Remove Kebabs
Remove Chavs.

Spikender
05-22-2013, 01:55 PM
Wow, that's insane.

Good thing the police took so long to respond, or more people might've gotten hurt.

Somehow, that makes sense, right?

CPUd
05-22-2013, 01:58 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/BOYADEE

lib3rtarian
05-22-2013, 02:00 PM
So let me say it again. Religion fucks you in the head. Islam does it on steroids. Keep the Muslims out if you want to save your country.

RickyJ
05-22-2013, 02:07 PM
So let me say it again. Religion fucks you in the head. Islam does it on steroids. Keep the Muslims out if you want to save your country.

Replace "Muslims" with "Jews" and watch how fast you will be called a racist hater and Nazi. Both religions are sick, but it is only politically correct in America to speak the truth about one of them.

Ender
05-22-2013, 02:09 PM
So let me say it again. Religion fucks you in the head. Islam does it on steroids. Keep the Muslims out if you want to save your country.

Really.

So what's the religion of the brave guys who sit in the basement and kill off innocents with drones?

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:11 PM
Hey Piers Morgan: why do you support keeping these DOZENS of people from owning weapons that could have ended this attack after the first strike? Do you like seeing decapitated veterans in your streets? Do you support terrorists?

Let's look at the statistics for machete-decapitation-deaths on England's streets versus American streets. England:1 USA:0. Do you dispute those facts, Mr. Morgan?

See this doesn't work. No kind of second amendment right will prevent ambush attacks. The guy knew his target and from all indication didn't care if he died. So open up gun ownership and he will buy all the guns he can buy and he may instead of attacking the soldier, pick a full daycare to attack. Remember, he is trying to prove a point i.e. show the British what they have brought to Muslim lands.

Guns are not magic, it will work after the fact just like it happened in real life but it cannot prevent incidents like this.

Jack Bauer
05-22-2013, 02:13 PM
And here I am getting lectured by these english ocean crossing chavs giving me shit about my guns. America, it is time to:

Remove Kebabs
Remove Chavs.

http://i.imgur.com/u94LnfQ.jpg

Ender
05-22-2013, 02:15 PM
See this doesn't work. No kind of second amendment right will prevent ambush attacks. The guy knew his target and from all indication didn't care if he died. So open up gun ownership and he will buy all the guns he can buy and he may instead of attacking the soldier, pick a full daycare to attack. Remember, he is trying to prove a point i.e. show the British what they have brought to Muslim lands.

Guns are not magic, it will work after the fact just like it happened in real life but it cannot prevent incidents like this.

Gimme a break-

If you know that people are armed, what is the chance you will attack someone openly on the streets?

Expatriate
05-22-2013, 02:16 PM
See this doesn't work. No kind of second amendment right will prevent ambush attacks. The guy knew his target and from all indication didn't care if he died. So open up gun ownership and he will buy all the guns he can buy and he may instead of attacking the soldier, pick a full daycare to attack. Remember, he is trying to prove a point i.e. show the British what they have brought to Muslim lands.

Guns are not magic, it will work after the fact just like it happened in real life but it cannot prevent incidents like this.

They might not save the first target, but they would certainly stop the psychos from walking around for 20 minutes doing whatever the fuck they please. What if they just started stabbing everyone in sight?

angelatc
05-22-2013, 02:19 PM
Diversity, is our greatest strength.

RIP for the poor fellow. Hope the attackers are burning somewhere.


DH says they can still feed the corpses to the pigs. Live on TV.


Oh wait - your citizens aren't armed.

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:20 PM
Diversity, is our greatest strength.

RIP for the poor fellow. Hope the attackers are burning somewhere.

Again, the problem is much deeper than just diversity. The British military participating in just about every military operation in the middle east makes the kind of incident possible. Think about what they have done to Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palestine etc etc and not to mention the dictators that they prop up.

Now think of a muslim who has a shitty life and knows whats up. The easy solution is to deport every Muslim in the country and the hard solution is to change their foreign policy.

Expatriate
05-22-2013, 02:20 PM
Oh, and there's a longer video here with a part the news edited out for some reason, I wonder why:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/news/4938509/Woolwich-killing-Suspect-speaks-at-scene.html

...........................

"I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same."

"You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don't care about you!"

"You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street, when we start (blasting? busting?) our guns? Think your politicians are gonna die? No, it's gonna be the average guy, like you. And your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back, so we can - so you can all live in peace!"

..................................

I'm still trying to figure out what he said before apologizing about the women seeing it.

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:25 PM
They might not save the first target, but they would certainly stop the psychos from walking around for 20 minutes doing whatever the fuck they please. What if they just started stabbing everyone in sight?

OK, so only difference a gun will make in this situation is that the guy wont walk around for 20 mins? I think that would be enough to convince gun control advocates. But what if they had a 2nd amendment in place, now what if the guy does some real planning and decides that now he has a gun, he should go for a nursery school or maybe a movie theatre with very little security. He goes in there and gets 10+ kills instead of one.

For gun ownership to really work as a crime deterrent, you have to have people who care about their lives to begin with.

nobody's_hero
05-22-2013, 02:25 PM
Crazy how the woman just walks by in the video. How can someone be so oblivious to their surroundings?

Guy yelling into camera. Check.
Guy waving around bloody cleaver. Check.
Body in the street. Check.
Situational awareness. NOPE.

Expatriate
05-22-2013, 02:26 PM
OK, so only difference a gun will make in this situation is that the guy wont walk around for 20 mins? I think that would be enough to convince gun control advocates. But what if they had a 2nd amendment in place, now what if the guy does some real planning and decides that now he has a gun, he should go for a nursery school or maybe a movie theatre with very little security. He goes in there and gets 10+ kills instead of one.

For gun ownership to really work as a crime deterrent, you have to have people who care about their lives to begin with.

Um, the attackers did have a gun. They just didn't use it.

It was just the law-abiding people that were disarmed.


Edit: Something people don't seem to realize is that whatever the law says, criminals can always get guns. Take India for example. Guns have been outlawed for a very long time. But the black market is awash in them, as they can be easily made in underground workshops, and represent a significant income source for criminals (along with drugs). And a great deal of the guns used in crime there are police and military guns, since evidently corrupt officials can't resist making a quick buck by "losing" hardware occasionally.

sluggo
05-22-2013, 02:29 PM
I understand the "they hate us because we're over there" argument, but I wonder why he would want live in a country that was a war against his homeland?

Welfare perhaps?

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:29 PM
So let me say it again. Religion fucks you in the head. Islam does it on steroids. Keep the Muslims out if you want to save your country.

Let hope the British now realize how crazy these people are and try and stay away from the affairs in their homeland. Just think how many less refugee there will be without the wars started and fueled by the British govt? And you know, less wars, less refugees and less refugees, less asylum seekers.

Win win win for everybody, but something tells me that the British foreign policy is not about to be changed anytime soon. Like the guy said, these people do not like you, so stay the fuck out.

HigherVision
05-22-2013, 02:31 PM
DH says they can still feed the corpses to the pigs. Live on TV.


Oh wait - your citizens aren't armed.

What's up with 'DH', that stands for Dear Husband right? Why do women all write that now instead of just saying 'my husband'? I'm just curious.


Again, the problem is much deeper than just diversity. The British military participating in just about every military operation in the middle east makes the kind of incident possible. Think about what they have done to Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palestine etc etc and not to mention the dictators that they prop up.

Now think of a muslim who has a shitty life and knows whats up. The easy solution is to deport every Muslim in the country and the hard solution is to change their foreign policy.

What if there was no war though, do you think that guys like this would still be out killing people and using some other justification for it? Because that's what I suspect.

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:31 PM
I understand the "they hate us because we're over there" argument, but I wonder why he would want live in a country that was a war against his homeland?

Welfare perhaps?

I guess is either you are in the country where the bombs are dropping on your head or you stay in the country dropping the bombs. Regardless of what you believe, most people will choose to be in the country dropping the bombs. Its not rocket science

sluggo
05-22-2013, 02:33 PM
So he goes to live in a country he hates so he can chop peoples heads off.

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:34 PM
Um, the attackers did have a gun. They just didn't use it.

It was just the law-abiding people that were disarmed.

Weird that he had a gun and decided to use a gun, maybe this is exactly what he wanted to do. Butcher a soldier instead of innocent civilians not involved in the whole wars for democracy.

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:40 PM
So he goes to live in a country he hates so he can chop peoples heads off.

Maybe he was born there and learned about the atrocities after he had gotten used to the life in England? who knows but the point is that he did not support British meddling in Muslim countries.

I bet you, if in some bizzaro world, the gulf states were the world economic powers of the world and people all over desired to live in those countries. And those gulf states have for decades been bombing, sanctioning and installing dictators left and right in Scandinavia, christian countries. I bet you this, we will be seeing white people doing some serious damage on people from their host countries when they get the chance.

White people seem to have more pride in their culture and heritage than any other group of people.

green73
05-22-2013, 02:42 PM
Listening to a witness on the BBC. He says there was no head on the body...

nobody's_hero
05-22-2013, 02:44 PM
I understand the "they hate us because we're over there" argument, but I wonder why he would want live in a country that was a war against his homeland?

Welfare perhaps?

I've often wondered that myself. It's like, "I really hate your country —but oh hey are those biscuits free?"

sluggo
05-22-2013, 02:48 PM
White people seem to have more pride in their culture and heritage than any other group of people.

They do?

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:51 PM
I've often wondered that myself. It's like, "I really hate your country —but oh hey are those biscuits free?"

Its the same logic behind "we hate the republican party but we will stick around and try and work from the inside" Same ole logic that we are all using here, also think of this, you might go(if you are a foreigner) home and you maybe get to experience life under a western supported dictator or God forbid, bombs paid for by your last year's tax dropping on your head.

juleswin
05-22-2013, 02:56 PM
They do?

Yup, at least the ones that I know can tell you a lot (relative term) about their heritage. And they still hold to some cultural piece from it. I know anecdotal evidence is not worth much but what I have :)

nobody's_hero
05-22-2013, 02:59 PM
Its the same logic behind "we hate the republican party but we will stick around and try and work from the inside" Same ole logic that we are all using here, also think of this, you might go(if you are a foreigner) home and you maybe get to experience life under a western supported dictator or God forbid, bombs paid for by your last year's tax dropping on your head.

I'm probably in the minority here but I have at times found the logic of that tactic questionable. I tried the whole GOP thing but I came to find out that they couldn't stand me almost as much as I couldn't stand them so I decided to back off and wait for the party to shrivel up and cease to exist. But, eh . . . I suppose that's for another thread.

You do have a point though about being in the country being bombed versus being in the country doing the bombing. As a matter of mere self preservation it would make sense. But to try to enact political change in that country by hacking someone to death? Doesn't seem too well-thought-out.

tod evans
05-22-2013, 03:02 PM
and as I have said before,, get out of the cities. London,, New York or Detroit makes no difference.
Get out.


That sucks. Why should we have to abandon our cities which were the site of so much great progress & history? I mean I agree that we do but we shouldn't have to.


The cities and governments are already gone, when the rural population accepts this it'll be really hard on those who stayed in the city...

green73
05-22-2013, 03:12 PM
A mother-of-two described tonight how she put her own life on the line by trying to persuade the soldier’s murderers to hand over their weapons.

Cub scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett selflessly engaged the terrorists in conversation and kept her nerve as one of them told her: “We want to start a war in London tonight.”

Mrs Loyau-Kennett, 48, from Cornwall, was one of the first people on the scene after the two Islamic extremists butchered a soldier in Woolwich, south east London.

She was photographed by onlookers confronting one of the attackers who was holding a bloodied knife.

Mrs Loyau-Kennett was a passenger on a number 53 bus which was travelling past the scene, and jumped off to check the soldier’s pulse.

“Being a cub leader I have my first aid so when I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.

“And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher’s tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives and he said 'move off the body’.

“So I thought 'OK, I don’t know what is going on here’ and he was covered with blood. I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'what do you want?’

“I asked him if he did it and he said yes and I said why? And he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British solider and I said really and he said 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.”

cont
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html

AFPVet
05-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Firearms won't stop incidents like this? Well, I don't know... a 230gr .45 slug in this guy's boiler room launched by the victim's weapon would've probably stopped the assailant from beheading him.... After all, the cops' firearms seemed to have done the trick.

I don't care if the assailant didn't have much consideration for his own life, at least he wouldn't have been able to carry out this heinous act. The bottom line is that if you take these psychopaths out of commission, they are not able to commit these violent acts.

compromise
05-22-2013, 03:25 PM
I think people here are conflating two different issues here.

- Foreign policy

- Immigration

One thing we have to remember about Europe is their largest group of immigrants is Muslim, mainly Arab, Turk or South Asian. Pretty much their equivalent to Latinos here in the states. Britain has mostly South Asians, given that Pakistan and Bangladesh were part of the Commonwealth and so can immigrate significantly more easily than some other types of immigrant. Just like Latinos in the US starting stuff like the Chicano Movement, there are militant tendencies among these immigrants, who feel they are racially disadvantaged.

This is in contrast to the position of these sorts of Muslim immigrants in the US, who tend to be much fewer in number, wealthier and far better assimilated than their European counterparts.

Of course, British intervention in the Middle East is fanning the flames of these groups and making them larger, more popular and more dangerous. However, this problem of large, angry, disaffected Muslim and Arab populations also exists in neutral countries, such as Sweden, Switzerland and Austria.

While The Netherlands is not neutral and supported conflict in the Middle East, a Dutch film-maker, Theo Van Gogh (descendant of Vincent Van Gogh) was assassinated by a Moroccan immigrant for merely criticizing Islam, not Dutch support for the War on Terror.

A theme among many of the "anti-Islamic" parties in Europe is foreign policy non-interventionism (with the exception of support for Israel in many cases), which makes them distinct from hawkish American conservatives, but their criticisms of Islam itself are rather similar.

Note: I don't agree with some of the racially charged hatred on the European right, just trying to clear stuff up.

osan
05-22-2013, 03:26 PM
Evil racist, Mooozlim-hating scooom! They violated the right to free exercise of religion.

Did this happen in one of those sharia-controlled zones?

While I feel badly for the poor slob who got hacked to pieces, and I genuinely do, I am finding it impossible to have any sympathy whatsoever for a nation populated with people so willfully stupid and limp-wristed that they accept the fiat of a governing body as rotten as the British Parliament, who from what little I have seen, seem to make our Congress appear as paragons of wisdom, honesty, and solid reason.

What disturbs me non-trivially is that there is a significant population of similarly cowardly and stoopid people right here at home. If the most recent election results are to be believed, enough of us decided to keep Obama, after all. If that doesn't give one pause I would not know anything encouraging to say in assessment of that person.

JK/SEA
05-22-2013, 03:59 PM
wtf..so this deranged person brutally kills someone he doesn't know, then spouts off about peace...mmkay...got it....setting a good example there fella. Very productive strategy. Blam..you're dead. Have a nice day.

green73
05-22-2013, 04:01 PM
This is pretty good. This guy was also on Murdoch’s Sky News. Bet they regret that. Start at 2:08


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaN7quv48jk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaN7quv48jk

angelatc
05-22-2013, 04:14 PM
What's up with 'DH', that stands for Dear Husband right? Why do women all write that now instead of just saying 'my husband'? I'm just curious.



What if there was no war though, do you think that guys like this would still be out killing people and using some other justification for it? Because that's what I suspect.

maybe you're young, but I clearly remember a world where the Muslims weren't blowing the West up. It was when the enemy was the Soviet Union.

DH just = I'm lazy

nobody's_hero
05-22-2013, 04:16 PM
This is pretty good. This guy was also on Murdoch’s Sky News. Bet they regret that. Start at 2:08

I was thinking the same thing, I was watching on the website posted at the beginning when this guy came on air.

NERVE
05-22-2013, 04:20 PM
Soo apparently the British are starting to get a little riled up about this EDL are standing outside a mosque and some other mosque had its window broken. Apparently more people are organizing on social media. I don't have a link but sky news is reporting on it. If anyone can find a link to a skynews stream please post it.

juleswin
05-22-2013, 04:27 PM
Soo apparently the British are starting to get a little riled up about this EDL are standing outside a mosque and some other mosque had its window broken. Apparently more people are organizing on social media. I don't have a link but sky news is reporting on it. If anyone can find a link to a skynews stream please post it.

They will cure the heck out of the symptom by cracking down on Muslims and restricting immigration but the disease will continue to grow. Funny but I think its people like EDL who have so much pride in their culture and ethnicity are the ones most likely to be doing the same thing this man did if the situation were revered.

James Madison
05-22-2013, 04:32 PM
A mother-of-two described tonight how she put her own life on the line by trying to persuade the soldier’s murderers to hand over their weapons.

Cub scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett selflessly engaged the terrorists in conversation and kept her nerve as one of them told her: “We want to start a war in London tonight.”

Mrs Loyau-Kennett, 48, from Cornwall, was one of the first people on the scene after the two Islamic extremists butchered a soldier in Woolwich, south east London.


Whaaaaaaaat??? You mean the gazelle can't reason with the hungry lion????

Cowlesy
05-22-2013, 04:34 PM
I'd love to know when this guy immigrated. To wit, from another thread where Peter Hitchens (a former Trotskyite and now neo-con dirtbag) describes how they shutdown the debate on immigration.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?414866-Peter-Hitchens-How-I-helped-contribute-to-the-ruin-of-my-country-(England)


When I was a Revolutionary Marxist, we were all in favour of as much immigration as possible. It wasn’t because we liked immigrants, but because we didn’t like Britain. We saw immigrants – from anywhere – as allies against the staid, settled, conservative society that our country still was at the end of the Sixties. Also, we liked to feel oh, so superior to the bewildered people – usually in the poorest parts of Britain – who found their neighbourhoods suddenly transformed into supposedly ‘vibrant communities’. If they dared to express the mildest objections, we called them bigots.

Revolutionary students didn’t come from such ‘vibrant’ areas (we came, as far as I could tell, mostly from Surrey and the nicer parts of London). We might live in ‘vibrant’ places for a few (usually squalid) years, amid unmown lawns and overflowing dustbins.

What did we know, or care, of the great silent revolution which even then was beginning to transform the lives of the British poor? To us, it meant patriotism and tradition could always be derided as ‘racist’. And it also meant cheap servants for the rich new middle-class, for the first time since 1939, as well as cheap restaurants and – later on – cheap builders and plumbers working off the books.

It wasn’t our wages that were depressed, or our work that was priced out of the market. Immigrants didn’t do the sort of jobs we did. They were no threat to us. The only threat might have come from the aggrieved British people, but we could always stifle their protests by suggesting that they were modern-day fascists.

It couldn’t have been more obvious that ‘race’ wasn’t the problem. The thing that made these new residents different was culture – language, customs, attitudes, sense of humour.

Rather than them adapting to our way of life, we were adapting to theirs. This wasn’t integration. It was a revolution. Yet nobody – especially their elected representatives – would listen to them, because they were assumed to be Powellite bigots, motivated by some sort of unreasoning hatred.

I now believe that the unreasoning hatred comes almost entirely from the liberal Left. Of course, there are still people who harbour stupid racial prejudices. But most of those concerned about immigration are completely innocent of such feelings.

Maybe some of these former leftists and perhaps the politicians in office should be held to answer for the poor soul's beheading, since the shooter is history.

Pericles
05-22-2013, 06:29 PM
maybe you're young, but I clearly remember a world where the Muslims weren't blowing the West up. It was when the enemy was the Soviet Union.

DH just = I'm lazy

Apparently, godless communists were worse than infidels who do not acknowledge the great prophet.

NERVE
05-22-2013, 07:03 PM
They will cure the heck out of the symptom by cracking down on Muslims and restricting immigration but the disease will continue to grow. Funny but I think its people like EDL who have so much pride in their culture and ethnicity are the ones most likely to be doing the same thing this man did if the situation were revered.
I definitely don't condone vengeance but i wouldn't doubt if they prove you right.

BAllen
05-22-2013, 08:57 PM
Dieversity:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kcYupOiaF0

enhanced_deficit
05-22-2013, 09:38 PM
Diversity, is our greatest strength.

RIP for the poor fellow. Hope the attackers are burning somewhere.


Both have been captured, will media report on details or leak selective information like Boston Marathon bombing case:

He said a man who had seen the incident described how the two men attacked the other man.

The suspects appeared to be two black men, he said. One was put in an ambulance and the other in an air ambulance, he said.
The man appeared to be wearing a T-shirt for Help for Heroes, a charity that helps military veterans, he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/world/europe/uk-london-attack/?hpt=hp_t1

BenIsForRon
05-22-2013, 09:52 PM
To all the people who think diversity is the worst, think about this: 1% of white Christian America thinks we should turn the middle east into a "glass parking lot", while at the same time most muslims in this country are peaceful and oppose the radical sects overseas.

Every culture has their bad apples.

alucard13mm
05-22-2013, 10:12 PM
Oh, and there's a longer video here with a part the news edited out for some reason, I wonder why:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/news/4938509/Woolwich-killing-Suspect-speaks-at-scene.html

...........................

"I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our lands our women have to see the same."

"You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don't care about you!"

"You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street, when we start (blasting? busting?) our guns? Think your politicians are gonna die? No, it's gonna be the average guy, like you. And your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back, so we can - so you can all live in peace!"

..................................

I'm still trying to figure out what he said before apologizing about the women seeing it.

the video did get cut/edited.. so that was the missing piece. lol.

heavenlyboy34
05-22-2013, 10:12 PM
maybe you're young, but I clearly remember a world where the Muslims weren't blowing the West up. It was when the enemy was the Soviet Union.

DH just = I'm lazy
And before that the Germans were The Big Bad Foreigners. "The only good German is a dead German", and all the other silly slogans were popular...kinda like the stupid slogans people use now. ;) TPTB always like a Big Bad Scary Foreign Threat. (BBSFT) Makes a wonderful propaganda tool.

HOLLYWOOD
05-22-2013, 10:21 PM
To all the people who think diversity is the worst, think about this: 1% of white Christian America thinks we should turn the middle east into a "glass parking lot", while at the same time most muslims in this country are peaceful and oppose the radical sects overseas.

Every culture has their bad apples.Yeap...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1mo8hslxEso

enhanced_deficit
05-22-2013, 10:27 PM
Primary issue here would be "foreign interventions", it would be mistake to frame it as a "diversity" issue.

Speaking of diversity, UK is about to further diversify and import hundreds of more Afghan moslems, a bold move considering string of recent insider attacks on US/UK troops by Afghan troops:

Britain offers visas to its Afghan interpreters

By Mark Anderson | Reuters – 11 hrs ago

LONDON (Reuters) - Around 600 interpreters who serve alongside British soldiers in Afghanistan are to be offered visas to live in the UK, in a softening of the government's previous policy of encouraging them to stay in the country after British troops withdraw.

http://news.yahoo.com/britain-offers-visas-afghan-interpreters-171646390.html

J_White
05-22-2013, 11:10 PM
few points -
who is recording the video rant ?
seems the other attacker was on the right side.

there was a lady just passing him by calmly at a point in the video (another version of this one)....i mean if i saw a man hack someone, i would not go near him while he is ranting about it.

third - this is setting a dangerous precedent - these crazy people acted violently because they hated US-UK foreign policy. (also the Tsarnaev brothers)
by association - anyone who opposes US foreign policy might become violent and could be a potential threat to the "American People" (read Govt).
and you know where that is going....


"You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street, when we start (blasting? busting?) our guns? Think your politicians are gonna die? No, it's gonna be the average guy, like you. And your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back, so we can - so you can all live in peace!"

this quote from him nails it - the pawns keep dying on both sides, while the actual controllers are rarely touched.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtkp_nUumqM

i wonder why they are just standing and strolling there ? were they not expecting police to come there and shoot them - which the police did !
and whats with the crashed blue car in the background ? was the soldier in a car and pulled out, he seemed to have been dragged on to the road - there is a blood trail.

BlackTerrel
05-22-2013, 11:24 PM
Haha Britain sucks

Seems a bit heartless man.

BlackTerrel
05-22-2013, 11:26 PM
Really sad. Pretty fucked up. Guy is clearly deranged.

HigherVision
05-22-2013, 11:31 PM
maybe you're young, but I clearly remember a world where the Muslims weren't blowing the West up. It was when the enemy was the Soviet Union.

DH just = I'm lazy

That's true, Muslims didn't always blow stuff up that much so I guess it is the foreign policy. Though the guys themselves who do the terrorism also want to be heroes I think.


Seems a bit heartless man.

I didn't post that about the murder. It was in reference to a funny vid someone posted about weird stuff going on socially in England, involving people called 'Chavs'. This:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ugNeWkeGYm8

BlackTerrel
05-22-2013, 11:33 PM
I understand the "they hate us because we're over there" argument, but I wonder why he would want live in a country that was a war against his homeland?

Welfare perhaps?

I'd be curious what his homeland is? I'm no expert but his accent sounds English - either born there or lived there a long time.

BlackTerrel
05-22-2013, 11:41 PM
That's true, Muslims didn't always blow stuff up that much so I guess it is the foreign policy. Though the guys themselves who do the terrorism also want to be heroes I think.



I didn't post that about the murder. It was in reference to a funny vid someone posted about weird stuff going on socially in England, involving people called 'Chavs'. This:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ugNeWkeGYm8

Oops. Thanks for clarifying.

BlackTerrel
05-22-2013, 11:44 PM
By the way I was wondering what it would take for a Muslim to kill someone without allegations of a false flag. I guess this is it. First time I remember.

compromise
05-22-2013, 11:55 PM
By the way I was wondering what it would take for a Muslim to kill someone without allegations of a false flag. I guess this is it. First time I remember.

I think it's just Alex Jones doesn't have a video up already.

oyarde
05-22-2013, 11:57 PM
Really.

So what's the religion of the brave guys who sit in the basement and kill off innocents with drones?

If you would like the real answer, they have no "religion" , they instead are owned by something you pay for with Fed tax , it is called , government.Like any small " special " group that is protected and does not face the rigors of reality , they will act as one seeking only the approval of the beast they serve . They are not combat troops ( they do not realize they are mortal , they do not think or question right or wrong ) they have not smelled sweat, fear , blood , death , carnage , burning.

oyarde
05-23-2013, 12:03 AM
To all the people who think diversity is the worst, think about this: 1% of white Christian America thinks we should turn the middle east into a "glass parking lot", while at the same time most muslims in this country are peaceful and oppose the radical sects overseas.

Every culture has their bad apples.

There will never be an end to apples that are not desired. Realize it , understand it and prepare. It is the weakness of mankind to prey on others.There is no cure.There are more than most realize , and that number will increase. Accept it , live with Joy , not in fear , be prepared to battle for your life.You cannot always win , but you can always understand .

enhanced_deficit
05-23-2013, 12:04 AM
By the way I was wondering what it would take for a Muslim to kill someone without allegations of a false flag. I guess this is it. First time I remember.

In couple of news reports I saw suspects were mentioned as black without mention of their religion, is their religion reported? It is probable as UK is involved in wars in 3-4 moslem countries but would confirm if there is a news source reporting that.


He said a man who had seen the incident described how the two men attacked the other man.

The suspects appeared to be two black men, he said. One was put in an ambulance and the other in an air ambulance, he said.
The man appeared to be wearing a T-shirt for Help for Heroes, a charity that helps military veterans, he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/world/europe/uk-london-attack/?hpt=hp_t1

oyarde
05-23-2013, 12:07 AM
And before that the Germans were The Big Bad Foreigners. "The only good German is a dead German", and all the other silly slogans were popular...kinda like the stupid slogans people use now. ;) TPTB always like a Big Bad Scary Foreign Threat. (BBSFT) Makes a wonderful propaganda tool.

Der Frieden

oyarde
05-23-2013, 12:11 AM
So he goes to live in a country he hates so he can chop peoples heads off.

Pretty much .

oyarde
05-23-2013, 12:14 AM
I've often wondered that myself. It's like, "I really hate your country —but oh hey are those biscuits free?"

Oh yes, always " free ".

BlackTerrel
05-23-2013, 12:15 AM
In couple of news reports I saw suspects were mentioned as black without mention of their religion, is their religion reported? It is probable as UK is involved in wars in 3-4 moslem countries but would confirm if there is a news source reporting that.


He said a man who had seen the incident described how the two men attacked the other man.

The suspects appeared to be two black men, he said. One was put in an ambulance and the other in an air ambulance, he said.
The man appeared to be wearing a T-shirt for Help for Heroes, a charity that helps military veterans, he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/world/europe/uk-london-attack/?hpt=hp_t1

I know they're black

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/22/man-killed-in-reported-machete-attack-in-london/?test=latestnews


Two men wielding a machete and a cleaver hacked a man believed to be a soldier to death on a busy London street Wednesday while yelling "Allahu Akbar," in an attack that was caught on video and left the nation shocked and horrified.

oyarde
05-23-2013, 12:17 AM
In couple of news reports I saw suspects were mentioned as black without mention of their religion, is their religion reported? It is probable as UK is involved in wars in 3-4 moslem countries but would confirm if there is a news source reporting that.


He said a man who had seen the incident described how the two men attacked the other man.

The suspects appeared to be two black men, he said. One was put in an ambulance and the other in an air ambulance, he said.
The man appeared to be wearing a T-shirt for Help for Heroes, a charity that helps military veterans, he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/world/europe/uk-london-attack/?hpt=hp_t1

I usually just wear my T shirt that is fake blood spattered with barbed wire and says " No Future" while in South london, I won it in a Carnival there. There will be no future for anyone who attacks me.

oyarde
05-23-2013, 12:21 AM
Crazy how the woman just walks by in the video. How can someone be so oblivious to their surroundings?

Guy yelling into camera. Check.
Guy waving around bloody cleaver. Check.
Body in the street. Check.
Situational awareness. NOPE.

I imagine she did put it together, sort of a weirdo combination of Faith , feeling charmed and hoping to prevent more all at the same time .....

HigherVision
05-23-2013, 01:36 AM
By the way I was wondering what it would take for a Muslim to kill someone without allegations of a false flag. I guess this is it. First time I remember.

I think what helps the false flags or has helped them in the past is that even though the Muslims accused of doing them are patsies, a lot of Muslims believe the official stories and sympathize with the alleged terrorists. They don't participate in terrorism themselves because they fear the consequences but they don't find it morally wrong. And so this further inflames everyone against them, pretty understandably. Just because governments do false flag terrorism doesn't mean that Islam is awesome or that all Muslim terrorism is fake.

Humanae Libertas
05-23-2013, 01:55 AM
Gun free Britain seems to be working...

RonPaulFanInGA
05-23-2013, 04:38 AM
Again, the problem is much deeper than just diversity. The British military participating in just about every military operation in the middle east makes the kind of incident possible.

Nah, it's the fact that the politicians there opened the door to massive immigration, including from the Muslim world, so much so that Islam will be the dominant religion in the United Kingdom before too much longer.

J_White
05-23-2013, 04:45 AM
Yeap...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1mo8hslxEso

Lindsey Graham and McInsane would be happy to see this neocon crop !
I hope she joins the military when she grows up and goes to fight for the causes she believes in.

juleswin
05-23-2013, 06:09 AM
Nah, it's the fact that the politicians there opened the door to massive immigration, including from the Muslim world, so much so that Islam will be the dominant religion in the United Kingdom before too much longer.

England's case is a little complicated. See, because of the fact they colonized so many nations in the past, they made deals when they were leaving to form a common wealth society where economic cooperation, immigration etc will be made easier.

From his real name of the attacker Michael Adeboloja, one can tell that he is a Nigerian(how I wish he didnt have a Nigerian name :() name, though a christian name (must have converted or something) for that matter and quess what? Nigeria is party of the common wealth nations. So in exchange for greater access of those nations natural resources and markets, they get a few immigrants to the nation.

So if they closed immigration to those countries, those countries might just back out of the common wealth entirely. Another question I have is this, why are ex christians converting to Islam?

pcosmar
05-23-2013, 06:16 AM
why are ex christians converting to Islam?

Because they were never Christian anyway.

NO ONE is ever born a Christian. Ever.

BAllen
05-23-2013, 08:46 AM
England's case is a little complicated. See, because of the fact they colonized so many nations in the past, they made deals when they were leaving to form a common wealth society where economic cooperation, immigration etc will be made easier.

From his real name of the attacker Michael Adeboloja, one can tell that he is a Nigerian(how I wish he didnt have a Nigerian name :() name, though a christian name (must have converted or something) for that matter and quess what? Nigeria is party of the common wealth nations. So in exchange for greater access of those nations natural resources and markets, they get a few immigrants to the nation.

So if they closed immigration to those countries, those countries might just back out of the common wealth entirely. Another question I have is this, why are ex christians converting to Islam?

Because Christianity has turned into socialist egalitarianism. Muslims put men at the head of everything. Women are subservient to them. Many women prefer a dominant man, they just don't know it, or suppress it because of cultural marxist propaganda.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 08:54 AM
No,, Violence and and stupidity is not race or religious specific.

and Racism is not one sided.

There are a whole lot of violent and stupid white folks there too.

and as I have said before,, get out of the cities. London,, New York or Detroit makes no difference.
Get out.


Well, there is certainly one religion that glorifies violence in its name more than others.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 08:58 AM
Replace "Muslims" with "Jews" and watch how fast you will be called a racist hater and Nazi. Both religions are sick, but it is only politically correct in America to speak the truth about one of them.

You can't be serious. How many Jews fly planes into our buildings? How many jews blow up our marathons? How many jews try to blow up Times Square, or our air planes?

You're ignoring a very real problem -- Muslim Extremists. They aren't pretend. They are not the same as Jews and Christians. They are completely insane, and our obscene and horrific foreign policy further radicalizes them and gives them the tools to recruit people who are slgihtly less nuts.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 08:59 AM
Again, the problem is much deeper than just diversity. The British military participating in just about every military operation in the middle east makes the kind of incident possible. Think about what they have done to Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Palestine etc etc and not to mention the dictators that they prop up.

Now think of a muslim who has a shitty life and knows whats up. The easy solution is to deport every Muslim in the country and the hard solution is to change their foreign policy.


But what of the Muslims rioting in Sweden?

klamath
05-23-2013, 09:13 AM
But what of the Muslims rioting in Sweden?
Didn't you know Sweden is a known for world domination ambitions. If the Swedes hadn't invaded all of north Africa and the middle east they would have been left alone......

juleswin
05-23-2013, 09:15 AM
But what of the Muslims rioting in Sweden?

The war


The pretext and framework for the attack on Libya by Sweden and other countries was United Nations resolution 1973. This resolution i.a. authorized a ban on flights and measures “to protect civilians and civilian populated areas” whilst excluding “a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory”.19

The reality is that participants in the NATO-led war already at the outset was in violation of resolution 1973 and that the motive was not to protect civilians – but regime-change.

Testimony by former NATO military commander General Wesley Clarke confirms that as early as 2001, Pentagon was instructed to prepare for war against Libya20 – i.e. long before Libya was reported as a “problem” somehow in need of a “solution”.

http://warisacrime.org/content/natos-crimes-libya-sweden

Not saying this is the cause of it or that it even has anything to do with these riots but the link above shows even than even the kumbaya singing, hippy, socialist Sweden has bloods on their hands just like her more war loving neighbours to the west. They helped deliver Libya to the radicals running it now.

But to the present riots, I read somewhere that it all came about because of some domestic squables with the police, think African Americans rioting over police mistreatment. Again, do not quote me on this cos I am not exactly sure again where I got this info. But again, you have to understand why they have those people in the 1st place, most of them are asylum seekers, a lot of refugees seek asylum and because of all the wars in the middle east, it created a lot of refugees who then sought for asylum in Sweden

It is a vicious cycle that need to stop.

Warlord
05-23-2013, 09:21 AM
You can't be serious. How many Jews fly planes into our buildings? How many jews blow up our marathons? How many jews try to blow up Times Square, or our air planes?

You're ignoring a very real problem -- Muslim Extremists. They aren't pretend. They are not the same as Jews and Christians. They are completely insane, and our obscene and horrific foreign policy further radicalizes them and gives them the tools to recruit people who are slgihtly less nuts.

Jews have used 'terrorism' before... didn't they blow up a hotel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

juleswin
05-23-2013, 09:27 AM
Jews have used 'terrorism' before... didn't they blow up a hotel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Not to mention the USS Liberty attack. Ofc now they achieved their objective via terrorism and formed a "legitimate" state with nuclear weapons and an state of the art military arsenal, theres no real need to committ petty terrorism.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 09:30 AM
Didn't you know Sweden is a known for world domination ambitions. If the Swedes hadn't invaded all of north Africa and the middle east they would have been left alone......
It's because they are free.

Nothing irks a sand ****** more than a free country, amirite?

klamath
05-23-2013, 09:36 AM
It's because they are free.

Nothing irks a sand ****** more than a free country, amirite?
Aw. If all white people and westerners were dead the muslim world would live in peace with themselves and all others. amirite?

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 09:38 AM
Not to mention the USS Liberty attack. Ofc now they achieved their objective via terrorism and formed a "legitimate" state with nuclear weapons and an state of the art military arsenal, theres no real need to committ petty terrorism.
That there is just terrist talk.

Everybody knows that Israeli blood is more pure than the savages they are burning.

Just as our blood is more pure than the million dead Iraqis.

People have the nerve to talk about muslim terrorists when our country has assisted or directly overthrown over 45 governments. Trained torturers and unleashed them on various parts of the world. Death squads. GTFOH.

AuH20
05-23-2013, 09:44 AM
Aw. If all white people and westerners were dead the muslim world would live in peace with themselves and all others. amirite?

So true....;):D These apologists will never get it.

klamath
05-23-2013, 09:54 AM
So true....;):D These apologists will never get it.Oops wait, I guess the east Indians have to die as well. Damn them for their world domination and invasions of other counties.

The 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings were a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai, the capital of the Indian state of Maharashtra and the nation's financial capital. The bombs were set off in pressure cookers on trains plying the Western line of the Suburban Railway network. 209 people were killed and over 700 were injured. According to Mumbai Police, the bombings were carried out by Lashkar-e-Taiba and Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI)
Everyone does their share of violence. To think it is all one sided is just as much a contribution to the violence cycle as anything else.

Ender
05-23-2013, 09:54 AM
You can't be serious. How many Jews fly planes into our buildings? How many jews blow up our marathons? How many jews try to blow up Times Square, or our air planes?

You're ignoring a very real problem -- Muslim Extremists. They aren't pretend. They are not the same as Jews and Christians. They are completely insane, and our obscene and horrific foreign policy further radicalizes them and gives them the tools to recruit people who are slgihtly less nuts.

That's bullshit. The first suicide bombers in the ME were Israelis.

The kinds of "terrorism" you are talking about is done by people with no money. The West kills 1000s of people with drones and advanced equipment and people with your POV consider that civilized.

The ME "terrorists" are just about the same as people in the US would be if they had been taken over by an enemy and 1000s were killed everyday. I think angry American "extremists" would outdo anything we have seen thus far.

BTW- your examples are all still in question.

Ender
05-23-2013, 09:58 AM
Aw. If all white people and westerners were dead the muslim world would live in peace with themselves and all others. amirite?

And if all the brown people were dead, westerners would have to find another scapegoat to continue the Empire. Seems to me I recall the Irish used to be the scourge of Western Civilization.

klamath
05-23-2013, 10:02 AM
And if all the brown people were dead, westerners would have to find another scapegoat to continue the Empire. Seems to me I recall the Irish used to be the scourge of Western Civilization.
Oops you missed post 128

Ender
05-23-2013, 10:04 AM
Oops you missed post 128

Looks like we posted at the same time- ;)

Thanks!

osan
05-23-2013, 10:05 AM
Again, the problem is much deeper than just diversity.

That may be true, but diversity is still a pretty big problem when its basis lies at too fundamental a level.


Now think of a muslim who has a shitty life and knows whats up.

I think they were both killed some time back. =8^o


The easy solution is to deport every Muslim in the country and the hard solution is to change their foreign policy.

Another is to deport every Muslim AND change foreign policy. :) :) :)

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 11:28 AM
So true....;):D These apologists will never get it.
Forty seven percent isn't quite enough.

I'll watch this country burn to spite your party's way of thinking.

Worship Israel, that's fine. I'll abstain from voting. Then come 2016 you can ask yourselves why it is more of the same.

Frankly these republican apologists never get it. And FFS, fuck Reagan. :eek: The horror.

As if I could forget the Contra death squads he was responsible for and the fact he should have been impeached.

AuH20
05-23-2013, 11:43 AM
Forty seven percent isn't quite enough.

I'll watch this country burn to spite your party's way of thinking.

Worship Israel, that's fine. I'll abstain from voting. Then come 2016 you can ask yourselves why it is more of the same.

Frankly these republican apologists never get it. And FFS, fuck Reagan. :eek: The horror.

As if I could forget the Contra death squads he was responsible for and the fact he should have been impeached.

I think you're projecting. I don't worship Israel. In fact, I loathe the nation's leadership and their so-called intelligence agency. But to deny the savagery and extreme rigidity of the Muslim cult of personality is laughable to say the least. I'm not advocating to embark upon a phony, counterproductive WoT but rather just leave them alone in their cluelessness.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 11:52 AM
I think you're projecting. I don't worship Israel. In fact, I loathe the nation's leadership and their so-called intelligence agency. But to deny the savagery and extreme rigidity of the Muslim cult of personality is laughable to say the least. I'm not advocating to embark upon a phony WoT but rather just leave them alone in their cluelessness.
I am projecting my frustration at those who would sell their soul for a republican to hold office.

We are a lot to blame for the hatred directed towards us. That is not to say there aren't genuinely insane people in the world. (I believe the played out word I am looking for is 'radicalized') It's cool. Deport the mooslums. And while you're at it, deport the joos. And them goddamn mexicants keep taking our jobs. If you ask me, only whites are sophisticated enough to understand freedumb.

Xenophobes- gotta laugh. The so called civilized have babies being born with three arms. What a bizarre world.

AuH20
05-23-2013, 11:54 AM
Replace "Muslims" with "Jews" and watch how fast you will be called a racist hater and Nazi. Both religions are sick, but it is only politically correct in America to speak the truth about one of them.

Considering that most jews in the states are raging progs with domination issues, then perhaps that wouldn't be a bad idea. But these problems aren't race based but rather culturally based.

enhanced_deficit
05-23-2013, 11:56 AM
I think you're projecting. I don't worship Israel. In fact, I loathe the nation's leadership and their so-called intelligence agency. But to deny the savagery and extreme rigidity of the Muslim cult of personality is laughable to say the least. I'm not advocating to embark upon a phony, counterproductive WoT but rather just leave them alone in their cluelessness.

Do you agree with Ron Paul statement that Israel created Hamas?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?414475-quot-Nabka-Catastrophe-quot-Palestinians-mark-their-1948-displacement&

They were so scared of hardline "Christian" Palestinians that Israel supported radical moslems. What a wonderful strategy.

AuH20
05-23-2013, 12:01 PM
I am projecting my frustration at those who would sell their soul for a republican to hold office.

We are a lot to blame for the hatred directed towards us. That is not to say there aren't genuinely insane people in the world. (I believe the played out word I am looking for is 'radicalized') It's cool. Deport the mooslums. And while you're at it, deport the joos. And them goddamn mexicants keep taking our jobs. If you ask me, only whites are sophisticated enough to understand freedumb.

Xenophobes- gotta laugh. The so called civilized have babies being born with three arms. What a bizarre world.

Return to the constitution, dismantle the warfare/welfare state and then harmful mass immigration would be self-regulating. Secondly, to your point about 'whites only', I dont think that is the answer but there needs to be a general moral compass set in place (not via the government obviously) for a particular society. People with vastly different values end up killing each other when all is said and done. This sad phenomenon is historically documented.

gwax23
05-23-2013, 12:13 PM
What the hell does this have to do with israel and the jews. Of course you idiots would try to bring Judaism into this when clearly it has nothing to do with it.

AuH20
05-23-2013, 12:17 PM
What the hell does this have to do with israel and the jews. Of course you idiots would try to bring Judaism into this when clearly it has nothing to do with it.

If Zionism was eradicated tommorrow, Muslim radicalism would still exist. I think that's the point. Sure, the zionists use and exploit islamic fundamentalism to the fullest, but there is certainly a robust base to start off from.

gwax23
05-23-2013, 12:22 PM
If Zionism was eradicated tommorrow, Muslim radicalism would still exist. I think that's the point. Sure, the zionists use and exploit islamic fundamentalism to the fullest, but there is certainly a robust base to start off from.

Did you just admit Zionism does not create Muslim radicalism? Im shocked.

This has nothing to do with jews, Judaism, or Zionism.

There are a bunch of radical blowhards on this forum who apologize and cover up for any act of violence or terror by trying to somehow tie jews into it.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 12:24 PM
Did you just admit Zionism does not create Muslim radicalism? Im shocked.

This has nothing to do with jews, Judaism, or Zionism.

There are a bunch of radical blowhards on this forum who apologize and cover up for any act of violence or terror by trying to somehow tie jews into it.


This is absolutely, unequivocally, true.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 12:26 PM
I'm sure Israel's treatment of Palestinians did not influence this attack at all. :rolleyes:

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 12:26 PM
Everyone does their share of violence. To think it is all one sided is just as much a contribution to the violence cycle as anything else.


YES!

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 12:27 PM
This is absolutely, unequivocally, true.
I wonder if Rupert Murdoch would tell you if it did..

Ender
05-23-2013, 12:28 PM
What the hell does this have to do with israel and the jews. Of course you idiots would try to bring Judaism into this when clearly it has nothing to do with it.

Judaism has nothing to do with this topic but the State of Israel certainly does.

From at least the Balfour Declaration on, the West has decided that the ME is theirs to do as they please.

And people are so surprised that there are ME radicals?

gwax23
05-23-2013, 12:30 PM
Kccchiefs is one of those radical blowhards I was talking about.

If there is a topic about Israel you can be damn sure hell be one of the first to post, that is if he didnt make the thread himself.

But yeah these beheaders where completely innocent, just the products of zionism oppression in a london suburb. If the jews werent there they 2 fine chaps would never of beheaded that man. You see they HAD to behead him because, well you know, jews, Khazars, rothchilds, zionism, and all that.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 12:33 PM
Judaism has nothing to do with this topic but the State of Israel certainly does.

From at least the Balfour Declaration on, the West has decided that the ME is theirs to do as they please.

And people are so surprised that there are ME radicals?


We kick hornets nests repeatedly while some of us refuse to acknowledge that our leg swinging and the rest ignore the hornets altogether. There ARE extremists, and we do things that piss them, and their neighbors, off.

Even if we stopped supporting Israel and pulled out of Muslim nations, a portion of their population would hate us. Personally, I find that to be acceptable. We stop killing brown people and wasting trillions of dollars in the process, and they hate us a bit less. If their hatred boils over and a nation decides to harbor nutjob extremists, we bomb the holy hell out of it and wage a massive punitive war against that nation, thereby winning the fear and respect of anyone else in that slice of earth who would wish to do us harm.

That is the only sensible way to handle the issue. It isn't utopian. It is realistic. There are actually people who wish to do us harm, and our foreign policy increases their numbers.

Ender
05-23-2013, 12:34 PM
Kccchiefs is one of those radical blowhards I was talking about.

If there is a topic about Israel you can be damn sure hell be one of the first to post, that is if he didnt make the thread himself.

But yeah these beheaders where completely innocent, just the products of zionism oppression in a london suburb. If the jews werent there they 2 fine chaps would never of beheaded that man. You see they HAD to behead him because, well you know, jews, Khazars, rothchilds, zionism, and all that.

No one is saying the beheaders are innocent. We are talking about BLOWBACK.

If you are a member of a Ron Paul Forum you should understand that term. :rolleyes:

Neil Desmond
05-23-2013, 12:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fOtHT_jD7I

Those gosh darn pesky conspiratards never fail.

gwax23
05-23-2013, 12:36 PM
No one is saying the beheaders are innocent. We are talking about BLOWBACK.

If you are a member of a Ron Paul Forum you should understand that term. :rolleyes:

Blowback isnt an excuse for every fucking crime and disgusting act committed by humans. Every bad thing that happens according to you is only because WE must of done something or the JEWs did something to piss someone off. It can never be that the criminals or the terrorists or whatever who actually committed these despicable acts are fucking assholes.....No thats neocon talk right?

You idiots give Ron paul and the entire liberty movement a bad name with these conspiracies and taking the concept of blowback to cover everything from terrorism to someone slipping on a banana peel.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 12:44 PM
Kccchiefs is one of those radical blowhards I was talking about.

The day I begin admiring and posting threads about a Hitler admiring, homophobic, nationalist you get the right to call me a radical. Bizarre.

Your posts ("He is the fucking man!") have cleared up for everyone why you always chime your two cents in. You are a nationalist.


If there is a topic about Israel you can be damn sure hell be one of the first to post, that is if he didnt make the thread himself.
Find one thread I've made about Israel.



But yeah these beheaders where completely innocent, just the products of zionism oppression in a london suburb. If the jews werent there they 2 fine chaps would never of beheaded that man. You see they HAD to behead him because, well you know, jews, Khazars, rothchilds, zionism, and all that.
I would bet my last dollar that those men knew about and felt sympathy towards the Palestinians. I never said they were innocent, you nationalist fuck.

You know it's funny, I'm the radical. Yet you think Israel is God's chosen people. Yet 99% of your 586 posts are related to 'apologizing' for Israel. Not really apologizing, making excuses and muddying the facts. See, there's the problem. You have a personal vested interest in Israel. You have nationalist beliefs. I call things as I see them. No bias. No nothing. You want babies with white phosphorus burns? Chosen people my ass.

Fact is, I wouldn't even talk about Israel if it weren't for the obvious fact that somehow they wiggled up the ass of every politician. You promote it. You are partially to blame. Congratulations. Now please, stick to wishing all muslims can be deported from that God forsaken piece of rock you call Israel.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 12:44 PM
Blowback isnt an excuse for every fucking crime and disgusting act committed by humans. Every bad thing that happens according to you is only because WE must of done something or the JEWs did something to piss someone off. It can never be that the criminals or the terrorists or whatever who actually committed these despicable acts are fucking assholes.....No thats neocon talk right?

You idiots give Ron paul and the entire liberty movement a bad name with these conspiracies and taking the concept of blowback to cover everything from terrorism to someone slipping on a banana peel.

Well, the lunatic who committed the criminal act here specifically cited western foreign policy. But so what? One act of violence does not justify another, especially such a random one.

Hey, you know, let's give peace a chance. If we find it to be insufficient, then we act with a savage brutality the muslim world has never seen. Until then, though, let's stop occupying their countries, bombing their villages, and propping up their tyrants.

Ender
05-23-2013, 12:52 PM
Blowback isnt an excuse for every fucking crime and disgusting act committed by humans. Every bad thing that happens according to you is only because WE must of done something or the JEWs did something to piss someone off. It can never be that the criminals or the terrorists or whatever who actually committed these despicable acts are fucking assholes.....No thats neocon talk right?

You idiots give Ron paul and the entire liberty movement a bad name with these conspiracies and taking the concept of blowback to cover everything from terrorism to someone slipping on a banana peel.

Seems to me the IDIOTS are those who have never read real history and believe MSM.

What in the HELL is the difference between these 2 murderers killing an innocent man and our little drone button pushers killing a few hundred here and there on any given day? The fact that they don't get their hands dirtied?

This is not conspiracy- and you have never read that word in any of my posts.

V3n
05-23-2013, 12:54 PM
The UK just started launching their own drone strikes out of Britain just 15 days ago.. (SOURCE (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?413597-Brits-Launch-Drone-Strike-From-Home))

Related?

enhanced_deficit
05-23-2013, 12:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fOtHT_jD7I

Those gosh darn pesky conspiratards never fail.

Just when I started restoring my trust in MSM, you had to post this video and plant seeds of doubt again. Now have to research this story all over again.

gwax23
05-23-2013, 01:08 PM
The day I begin admiring and posting threads about a Hitler admiring, homophobic, nationalist you get the right to call me a radical. Bizarre.

Your posts ("He is the fucking man!") have cleared up for everyone why you always chime your two cents in. You are a nationalist.


Find one thread I've made about Israel.


I would bet my last dollar that those men knew about and felt sympathy towards the Palestinians. I never said they were innocent, you nationalist fuck.

You know it's funny, I'm the radical. Yet you think Israel is God's chosen people. Yet 99% of your 586 posts are related to 'apologizing' for Israel. Not really apologizing, making excuses and muddying the facts. See, there's the problem. You have a personal vested interest in Israel. You have nationalist beliefs. I call things as I see them. No bias. No nothing. You want babies with white phosphorus burns? Chosen people my ass.

Fact is, I wouldn't even talk about Israel if it weren't for the obvious fact that somehow they wiggled up the ass of every politician. You promote it. You are partially to blame. Congratulations. Now please, stick to wishing all muslims can be deported from that God forsaken piece of rock you call Israel.

Id figure you go off on a hysterical Israel rant as usual.

Who cares if they had sympathies for palestinians? Why does that fucking matter? Why does that need to be brought up? There is no context unless you are trying to excuse their behavior but when I accuse you of doing that very thing you deny it. Then why bring it up? So because according to you and them palestinians are being mistreated so obviously the only recourse to such a thing is to go and behead an innocent man in the suburbs of london? Apparently your not suggesting that yet you continue to bring it up which only begs the question why?

Ive never said Israel where gods chosen people, never talked about religion much either. Your free to quote me though, but its not okay for you to continue to put words in my mouth, as you continually do in the face of a lack of any credibility. 99% of my posts are not about Israel but Ill admit many are. The only reason being is because I dont really find myself in opposition to many views expressed on these forums. For example most are supporters of austrian economics, ron paul, and the such, so that doesnt usually generate a lot of arguments or discussions hence fewer posts. Unless you want me to write a bunch of posts that look like "I agree with the above" There is however a lot of ignorant shit being spewed about Israel from people like you which leads me to have to post about it in order to counter your bullshit. This isnt because im a nationalist or have some personal vested interest in Israel, whatever that means, it just means I want to stop the lies, untruths, and other crap that constantly makes the rounds on these forums by posting counter arguments and expressing my beliefs.

But of course anyone who doesnt agree with your hate fueled narrative must be some nationalist or wants babies to die of white phosphorus.

Lastly I never called for Muslims to be deported stop spewing this nonsense you twat.



Seems to me the IDIOTS are those who have never read real history and believe MSM.

What in the HELL is the difference between these 2 murderers killing an innocent man and our little drone button pushers killing a few hundred here and there on any given day? The fact that they don't get their hands dirtied?

This is not conspiracy- and you have never read that word in any of my posts.

Its always the same responses. Necon this, MSM that.

Just because our government does bad things does not excuse or give legitimacy to what these two murderers did in London. This has nothing to do with drones, blowback, or US foreign policy. This is about 2 crazed lunatics who murdered an innocent man and need to find some political excuse to justify it as he did so blatantly in the video. You and people like you posting in this thread about blowback, and US foreign policy are only giving the excuses of these two murderers legitimacy.

Ender
05-23-2013, 01:15 PM
Its always the same responses. Necon this, MSM that.

Just because our government does bad things does not excuse or give legitimacy to what these two murderers did in London. This has nothing to do with drones, blowback, or US foreign policy. This is about 2 crazed lunatics who murdered an innocent man and need to find some political excuse to justify it as he did so blatantly in the video. You and people like you posting in this thread about blowback, and US foreign policy are only giving the excuses of these two murderers legitimacy.

The word "neocon" is not in my post; interesting that everything is so personal with you.

No one says the murderers were innocent- but that said- it is people like you that justify US foreign policy and then blame those that are against it as the problem.

Go figure.

gwax23
05-23-2013, 01:22 PM
The word "neocon" is not in my post; interesting that everything is so personal with you.

No one says the murderers were innocent- but that said- it is people like you that justify US foreign policy and then blame those that are against it as the problem.

Go figure.

I am against the vast majority of US foreign policy. Dont make up lies.

You keep saying your not claiming the murderers where innocent. Then why do you keep bringing up US foreign policy? Why does it matter?

I already directly asked you this question in my prior post but you ignored it as well as the majority of the post in order to keep reiterating the same crap. I didnt take your post personally and I wasnt addressing just you but many other posters in the thread, so if anything your taking it personally.

Go figure.

Neil Desmond
05-23-2013, 01:23 PM
Just when I started restoring my trust in MSM, you had to post this video and plant seeds of doubt again. Now have to research this story all over again.
Trust no one.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 01:47 PM
Id figure you go off on a hysterical Israel rant as usual...

You are conceding the point that I have not made a single thread about Israel, yes? Good to know.

I'm curious though, perhaps you can check out your thread in the foreign policy subforum, what do you like so much about Moshe Feiglin? From your statement of "Moshe Feiglin is the fucking man!" is it fair to assume you admire the man? Perhaps that he sums up your views nicely?

Very tell tale.

How dare you insult Ron Paul with that comparison.

People's motives matter. Not that their crime is excused, but as an attempt to prevent another similar crime or as an attempt to understand exactly how someone can do the things they do. You'd rather not listen. And I can tell why.

2young2vote
05-23-2013, 01:49 PM
Just when I started restoring my trust in MSM, you had to post this video and plant seeds of doubt again. Now have to research this story all over again.

Every single bit of color from the two different videos was different. The mans coat was different, his hands were different, the woman's coat was different and it had an overall different color to the video. That should be expected with two different cameras. Do you honestly think they would have gone in and added color to his hands afterwords using a computer instead of just painting them red in the first place?

Edit: Man, just look at the bus in the background. It was the same color red as his hands in the original video, then in the second video it is the same color orange. This isn't a "gotcha" moment against the MSM, this is simply people not paying attention to the video.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 01:54 PM
Then why do you keep bringing up US foreign policy? Why does it matter?

Because without our meddling and involvement in other countries (and unquestionable support of Israel) that man probably wouldn't have been chopped to pieces.

Don't misrepresent what I am saying, I am not excusing the murderers. You have to look in the mirror. 'We' breed mass immorality. 'We' harm and affect innocent people. When something negative comes back from it, you are content to just say they are madmen, lock them up and throw away the key. While I, and many others here, would like to know why it happened. I know why it happened, why they targeted a man raising money for the troops. They said as much in the video. (I wonder why it was edited and talked over... :rolleyes:) It isn't a far stretch to say that this was blowback.

gwax23
05-23-2013, 01:59 PM
You are conceding the point that I have not made a single thread about Israel, yes? Good to know.

I'm curious though, perhaps you can check out your thread in the foreign policy subforum, what do you like so much about Moshe Feiglin? From your statement of "Moshe Feiglin is the fucking man!" is it fair to assume you admire the man? Perhaps that he sums up your views nicely?

Very tell tale.

How dare you insult Ron Paul with that comparison.

People's motives matter. Not that their crime is excused, but as an attempt to prevent another similar crime or as an attempt to understand exactly how someone can do the things they do. You'd rather not listen. And I can tell why.


Because without our meddling and involvement in other countries (and unquestionable support of Israel) that man probably wouldn't have been chopped to pieces.

Don't misrepresent what I am saying, I am not excusing the murderers. You have to look in the mirror. 'We' breed mass immorality. 'We' harm and affect innocent people. When something negative comes back from it, you are content to just say they are madmen, lock them up and throw away the key. While I, and many others here, would like to know why it happened. I know why it happened, why they targeted a man raising money for the troops. They said as much in the video. (I wonder why it was edited and talked over... :rolleyes:) It isn't a far stretch to say that this was blowback.

No Ive just been trying to figure out how to search for your posts as its only giving me recent results. But good job nitpicking a minor point of mine and ignore the substance of my argument. I know you have no real rebuttals as this post shows but I was expecting more from you. You still post plenty on israel what difference does it make if it was in a Thread form or a standard post form. This is irrelevant to the discussion but your free to delve further into this technicality if you find you have no more arguments left (Which it seems you dont)

Do I like Moshe Feiglin? Yes to a degree. Do I agree with him on everything? No I dont. Does this matter? No it doesnt. I know you feel like a real genius cause you skimmed his wikipedia page a few times, namely scrolling down to the controversy section, I doubt you knew who he was until Smart brought him up. But again youve just been trying to change the subject from these murders. Your ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments will only get you so far.

Anyway Im glad you finally posted what I was waiting for. Namely the motives of the crime. What your asserting is that if US foreign policy was somehow different these murders would never of taken place and the 2 murderers would be normal fully functioning members of society. I reject this notion. These two men where psychologically ill and would have committed a murder regardless and found some excuse to justify it in their twisted minds. Whether it was US foreign policy or the foreign policy of lichenstein they would of found some excuse and Im sure you would be on this board regardless trying to lend credibility to their excuses. Thats where I differ from you. You want to somehow tie blowback into this murder and lend legitimacy to their excuses (Whether directly or indirectly) but that wont do a damn thing to stop crimes like this in the future. They decapitated him for christs sake. This wasnt some shoot and run at a seven eleven this was some depraved shit. They had problems and something would of triggered them eventually.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 02:12 PM
Every single bit of color from the two different videos was different. The mans coat was different, his hands were different, the woman's coat was different and it had an overall different color to the video. That should be expected with two different cameras. Do you honestly think they would have gone in and added color to his hands afterwords using a computer instead of just painting them red in the first place?

Edit: Man, just look at the bus in the background. It was the same color red as his hands in the original video, then in the second video it is the same color orange. This isn't a "gotcha" moment against the MSM, this is simply people not paying attention to the video.

And yet people will fall for this the next time some lunatic does something savage, too.

A Son of Liberty
05-23-2013, 02:15 PM
How much more likely am I to be murdered by a muslim crazed lunatic than by a drug crazed lunatic?

Some people are just desperately afraid of living in a free society, I guess. Lucky for you, "the government" is working diligently to relieve your stress.

KingNothing
05-23-2013, 02:16 PM
They had problems and something would of triggered them eventually.

My counter to this is that if Western nations gave them far less reasons to be angry and if they feared and respected Western nations, they'd be more likely to subject people in their own communities to that sort of savage depravity, not people in ours.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 02:17 PM
No Ive just been trying to figure out out to search for your posts as its only giving me recent results. But way to nitpick a minor point of mine and ignore the substance of my argument. I know you have no real rebuttals as this post shows but I was expecting more from you. You still post plenty on israel what difference does it make if it was in a Thread form or a standard post form. This is irrelevant to the discussion but your free to delve further into this technicality if you find you have no more arguments left (Which is seems you dont)
I'll save you the trouble. I haven't made any threads on Israel. I also do not respond to every thread. I find it funny that you accuse me of misrepresenting you or putting words in your mouth when I was responding to your post that did precisely that.



Do I like Moshe Feiglin? Yes to a degree. Do I agree with him on everything? No I dont. Does this matter? No it doesnt. I know you feel like a real genius cause you skimmed his wikipedia page a few times, namely scrolling down to the controversy section, I doubt you knew who he was until Smart brought him up. But again youve just been trying to change the subject from these murders. Your ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments will only get you so far.

I know why you like him. It's the same reason that you are able to rationalize Israel's crimes in your mind. To post here nothing but sweet nothings about that particular piece of rock. True enough on Moshe Feiglin, I had not heard of him before. (not everyone follows Israeli politics) You vouching that he is the Israeli Ron Paul piqued my curiousity. So I looked, and let me tell you, I didn't have to look far. (not to mention by that time other members already called you out on your insult towards Ron Paul) Genius? Not so much. It is amusing to watch your mind do mental gymnastics as to how the Chosen can do no wrong. Prove me wrong. Name one egregious act Israel has committed. Just one. I will gain a new respect for you if you can do me that simple thing. I suspect you are unable or unwilling.

I didn't respond to the entirety of your previous post not because I couldn't, but because it was a waste of time. Wizardwatson knows the feeling, though I did read the entirety of what you wrote.



Anyway Im glad you finally posted what I was waiting for. Namely the motives of the crime. What your asserting is that if US foreign policy was somehow different these murders would never of taken place and the 2 murderers would be normal fully functioning citizens of society. I reject this notion. These two men where psychologically ill and would have committed a murder regardless and found some excuse to justify it in their minds. Whether it was US foreign policy or the foreign policy of lichenstein. Thats where I differ from you. You want to somehow tie blowback into this murder and lend legitimacy to their excuses (Whether directly or indirectly) but that wont do a damn thing to stop crimes like this in the future.
The murders would not have taken place. For one, the man probably wouldn't have been raising money for wounded vets, or may not have even joined the army in the first place. (I'm not sure his exact position or if he was in the army? I believe early reports stated as much?) Then you move onto the two attackers. Would they have brazenly chopped a man up in broad daylight? I don't think so. I am sure they were very sick individuals. I do not know if they would have eventually murdered someone else had we not been involved as we are. The point is, that is why they murdered this specific man. They didn't attack all of the other people recording them. They seemed generally calm. That is not to say that they would have been 'productive members of society.' That is just to say that they wouldn't have beheaded a military man in broad daylight.

I don't know why I have to say this but I might as well save a post, I am not condoning or trivializing this crime. I am examining the reasons they gave forth. The facts are such. You can huff and puff about giving legitmacy or that Israel's policies had no influence on their actions to no avail. The men said their motives. While that doesn't change the crime, it provides insight.

Reason
05-23-2013, 02:38 PM
Blowback.

Ender
05-23-2013, 02:44 PM
Blowback.

Uh oh.

Now you're on gwax23's list of Jew haters and an embarrassment to Ron Paul. ;)

ravedown
05-23-2013, 02:54 PM
have they ruled out the 'innocence of muslims' video? maybe machete dude just peeped it on youtube and got bummed out?

tod evans
05-23-2013, 03:08 PM
How much more likely am I to be murdered by a muslim crazed lunatic than by a drug crazed lunatic?

Some people are just desperately afraid of living in a free society, I guess. Lucky for you, "the government" is working diligently to relieve your stress.

Statistically [made up!] You're far more likely to be murdered by a person consuming alcohol than either of your other two scenarios...

gwax23
05-23-2013, 03:31 PM
I'll save you the trouble. I haven't made any threads on Israel. I also do not respond to every thread. I find it funny that you accuse me of misrepresenting you or putting words in your mouth when I was responding to your post that did precisely that.


I know why you like him. It's the same reason that you are able to rationalize Israel's crimes in your mind. To post here nothing but sweet nothings about that particular piece of rock. True enough on Moshe Feiglin, I had not heard of him before. (not everyone follows Israeli politics) You vouching that he is the Israeli Ron Paul piqued my curiousity. So I looked, and let me tell you, I didn't have to look far. (not to mention by that time other members already called you out on your insult towards Ron Paul) Genius? Not so much. It is amusing to watch your mind do mental gymnastics as to how the Chosen can do no wrong. Prove me wrong. Name one egregious act Israel has committed. Just one. I will gain a new respect for you if you can do me that simple thing. I suspect you are unable or unwilling.

I didn't respond to the entirety of your previous post not because I couldn't, but because it was a waste of time. Wizardwatson knows the feeling, though I did read the entirety of what you wrote.


The murders would not have taken place. For one, the man probably wouldn't have been raising money for wounded vets, or may not have even joined the army in the first place. (I'm not sure his exact position or if he was in the army? I believe early reports stated as much?) Then you move onto the two attackers. Would they have brazenly chopped a man up in broad daylight? I don't think so. I am sure they were very sick individuals. I do not know if they would have eventually murdered someone else had we not been involved as we are. The point is, that is why they murdered this specific man. They didn't attack all of the other people recording them. They seemed generally calm. That is not to say that they would have been 'productive members of society.' That is just to say that they wouldn't have beheaded a military man in broad daylight.

I don't know why I have to say this but I might as well save a post, I am not condoning or trivializing this crime. I am examining the reasons they gave forth. The facts are such. You can huff and puff about giving legitmacy or that Israel's policies had no influence on their actions to no avail. The men said their motives. While that doesn't change the crime, it provides insight.


I didnt misrepresent you. I said you post a lot about Israel. You do. Again what difference does it make if those posts are in the form of a reply or a thread? This is a trivial technicality that you continue to rehash because your trying to change the topic. You actually put words in my mouth. Saying I claimed thats jews where "The chosen people" and all this other pseudo religious bullshit that I had nothing to do with.


I wasnt the person who first said he was the Israeli ron paul. That would be Smart3. I just said he had many libertarian positions similar to Ron Pauls which he does and theres no denying it. Another member of these forums who was arguing with me even conceded he was an Ayn Rand -esque libertarian. But regardless what does this have to do with this thread? Nothing. I urge you to stay on topic and stop making excuses for not being able to address all my points.

I dont know what your definition of 'egregious' would be but ive stated on numerous threads that I disagree vehemently with the vast majority of Israels domestic and economic policies. Im not saying this to gain your 'respect' I could honestly care less. Further I have no idea who Wizardwatson is...

Also this is probably my fault because I started posting in this thread to call out people like you bringing Israel into this and now it ended up being for naught because you have once again made Israel the center of this debate despite the fact that it has no connection to these murders. This is my fault since I did feed your bullshit machine.

Also I never denied their motives or denied that it provided insight I simply argued that this is not an example of blowback and they would of eventually of murdered regardless. This is a simple point I have tried to make for several pages. You obviously couldnt let a no good zionist evil doer like me get away with making such a minor point that you decided to turn this into a discussion about Israel as you always end up doing but even there your arguments have been flaky at best, and that was only when you provided rebuttals most of the time you simply ignored what I said and brought up yet more ridiculous points.


Uh oh.

Now you're on gwax23's list of Jew haters and an embarrassment to Ron Paul. ;)


Im really sorry your intellectually incapable of carrying on a civil discourse regarding this topic. Not being able to defend your points is not excuse for personal and baseless attacks.

A Son of Liberty
05-23-2013, 03:34 PM
Statistically [made up!] You're far more likely to be murdered by a person consuming alcohol than either of your other two scenarios...

I'm quite sure that you're correct, regardless.

The hand-wringing here is more disconcerting than the pants-pissing in our society in general of course. Some day, I'm going to die. And there isn't a layer of security that the inept state could ever provide that will prevent it.

In the meantime, I'll be happy to be free, thank you very much.

heavenlyboy34
05-23-2013, 03:35 PM
How much more likely am I to be murdered by a muslim crazed lunatic than by a drug crazed lunatic?

Some people are just desperately afraid of living in a free society, I guess. Lucky for you, "the government" is working diligently to relieve your stress.
You just haven't learned to love Big Brother yet. Head to Room 101. ;) :(

A Son of Liberty
05-23-2013, 03:40 PM
You just haven't learned to love Big Brother yet. Head to Room 101. ;) :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLFIxt2cK_0

navy-vet
05-23-2013, 03:48 PM
That is true.

Spikender
05-23-2013, 03:50 PM
That is true.

Welcome to the site!

An interesting choice for your first topic to post in, if I might add.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 03:54 PM
I didnt misrepresent you. I said you post a lot about Israel. You do. Again what difference does it make if those posts are in the form of a reply or a thread? This is a trivial technicality that you continue to rehash because your trying to change the topic. You actually put words in my mouth. Saying I claimed thats jews where "The chosen people" and all this other pseudo religious bullshit that I had nothing to do with.

I will vastly overstate the amount of times I've mentioned Israel to 75 posts. That is roughly .015 percent of my posting history. You, on the other hand, could easily have 50% of your posts being about Israel. If not higher. (as I'd suspect) Change the subject, huh? For what?



I wasnt the person who first said he was the Israeli ron paul. That would be Smart3. I just said he had many libertarian positions similar to Ron Pauls which he does and theres no denying it. Another member of these forums who was arguing with me even conceded he was an Ayn Rand -esque libertarian. But regardless what does this have to do with this thread? Nothing. I urge you to stay on topic and stop making excuses for not being able to address all my points.

My apologies.

Being a fan of Moshe Feiglin is relevant to the topic at hand. It shows why you get upset when Israel is mentioned negatively. It is because you are a nationalist. Me pointing that out gives insight to others who may not see your motives in posting. I believe it was ronpaulfollower999 who even began to believe your biased bullshit.



I dont know what your definition of 'egregious' would be but ive stated on numerous threads that I disagree vehemently with the vast majority of Israels domestic and economic policies. Im not saying this to gain your 'respect' I could honestly care less. Further I have no idea who Wizardwatson is...
A war crime would do. My definition is about the same as anyone's. This was the response I expected, by the way.

Wizardwatson is a genius who you'd get along with well. You guys could have venacular circle jerks and pat each other on the back.



Also this is probably my fault because I started posting in this thread to call out people like you bringing Israel into this and now it ended up being for naught because you have once again made Israel the center of this debate despite the fact that it has no connection to these murders. This is my fault since I did feed your bullshit machine.

Again, you have some nerve. I challenge you to find over fifty posts the entire time I was here that mention Israel. I would be hard pressed to find a post of yours that does not. In the case of a military man being beheaded by two Muslims who are on video talking about the West's militarism, yeah, Israel is going to get mentioned. Boo fucking hoo.



Also I never denied their motives or denied that it provided insight I simply argued that this is not an example of blowback and they would of eventually of murdered regardless. This is a simple point I have tried to make for several pages. You obviously couldnt let a no good zionist evil doer like me get away with making such a minor point that you decided to turn this into a discussion about Israel as you always end up doing but even there your arguments have been flaky at best, and that was only when you provided rebuttals most of the time you simply ignored what I said and brought up yet more ridiculous points.

You called me a radical when you are an Israel first nationalist who admires a politician in Israel that wishes to deport all Muslims and admires Hitler. THAT, is why I even responded. (I couldn't let one of your sly cheap shots slide.. perhaps if you had not specifically mentioned me I wouldn't even have addressed you, as I usually don't... I find it to be pointless) I can partially concede that point. These men very well may have killed someone else. It wouldn't have been that guy though if we weren't involved in other countries and you can't say for a certainty that they would have killed anyone.

I ignore the irrelevant. Ask me again if you feel so inclined to know my opinion. I also try to stay on course as I am well aware replying to you is a waste of time. Israel could drop white phosphorus on civilian targets and you'd claim the bottle rockets launched were missiles and that Israel is an exceptionally perserverant nation that only acts out of self defense. In short, you are hopeless. Why do you continue to waste my time?

compromise
05-23-2013, 04:08 PM
Yo, everyone calm down, no need to worry, this one wasn't a real attack as usual, just been revealed by a crappy YouTube video as just another false flag, everyone knows extreme Muslims can't actually do terrorist attacks themselves...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zfa3gXTqOH8

:facepalm:

Spikender
05-23-2013, 04:12 PM
Yo, everyone calm down, no need to worry, this one wasn't a real attack as usual, just been revealed by a crappy YouTube video as just another false flag, everyone knows extreme Muslims can't actually do terrorist attacks themselves...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zfa3gXTqOH8

:facepalm:

Every conspiracy theory is automatically connected to Alex Jones I see.

Show me where Alex Jones or the majority of his supporters have said this was a false flag, and I'll give you that.

If you can't, then stop your baseless attacks.

gwax23
05-23-2013, 04:19 PM
I will vastly overstate the amount of times I've mentioned Israel to 75 posts. That is roughly .015 percent of my posting history. You, on the other hand, could easily have 50% of your posts being about Israel. If not higher. (as I'd suspect) Change the subject, huh? For what?


My apologies.

Being a fan of Moshe Feiglin is relevant to the topic at hand. It shows why you get upset when Israel is mentioned negatively. It is because you are a nationalist. Me pointing that out gives insight to others who may not see your motives in posting. I believe it was ronpaulfollower999 who even began to believe your biased bullshit.


A war crime would do. My definition is about the same as anyone's. This was the response I expected, by the way.

Wizardwatson is a genius who you'd get along with well. You guys could have venacular circle jerks and pat each other on the back.


Again, you have some nerve. I challenge you to find over fifty posts the entire time I was here that mention Israel. I would be hard pressed to find a post of yours that does not. In the case of a military man being beheaded by two Muslims who are on video talking about the West's militarism, yeah, Israel is going to get mentioned. Boo fucking hoo.


You called me a radical when you are an Israel first nationalist who admires a politician in Israel that wishes to deport all Muslims and admires Hitler. THAT, is why I even responded. (I couldn't let one of your sly cheap shots slide.. perhaps if you had not specifically mentioned me I wouldn't even have addressed you, as I usually don't... I find it to be pointless) I can partially concede that point. These men very well may have killed someone else. It wouldn't have been that guy though if we weren't involved in other countries and you can't say for a certainty that they would have killed anyone.

I ignore the irrelevant. Ask me again if you feel so inclined to know my opinion. I also try to stay on course as I am well aware replying to you is a waste of time. Israel could drop white phosphorus on civilian targets and you'd claim the bottle rockets launched were missiles and that Israel is an exceptionally perserverant nation that only acts out of self defense. In short, you are hopeless. Why do you continue to waste my time?

Ive already admitted in an earlier post that my posts regarding Israel was high and gave an explanation for it. Wether you chose not to read that or are simply lying, I dont know but why do you keep reiterating this? Your only proving my point that you have no real argument save for petty nonsense.

Further I would hardly call myself a fan of Moshe Feiglin. I like him because he is as another poster pointed out a "Ayn Randian Libertarian" being an Ayn Randian libertarian myself this would make me a little interested in him. Also since you seem to be centering your arguments on Moshe Feiglin and dont seem to be stepping away from said arguments I had to do my own research. Many of these controversial quotes he made are things that are taken out of context and misquoted by leftist leaning Israeli publications such as the quote regarding Hitler which Haaretz apparently admitted totaking of context. Similar to Ron Pauls newsletter controversy which was taken grossly out of context by American left wing press. Im not defending him though because Im not his spokesman, not even a fan, just someone whose vaguely interested in him from things Ive heard. Maybe I was a little ignorant on all his positions and Ill admit that but again your trying to tie Moshe Feiglin into some theory on why I believe in the things I do (Regarding Israel) or what motivates me, when he has nothing to do with my beliefs or motivations. But continue to make Moshe Feiglin the center of your increasingly desperate arguments against me. Your an expert of the strawman argument Ill give you that.

You bring up ronpaulfollower999 who I dont really know or remember offhand but regardless you trying to claim that I somehow brainwashed or convinced this person to my beliefs because of some evil magic propaganda powers of mine is yet again utter bologna (Im literally running out of synonyms for bullshit, thats how much bullshit youve shat out in this thread)

If he was starting to agree with my points its because I make rational logical arguments based on reason and not hate fueled diatribes that you seem to favor. But again I dont remember him.

My first post in this thread was a general comment regarding the ridiculousness of connecting this attack to Israel (An assertion you continue to make) a few posts later you say.

"I'm sure Israel's treatment of Palestinians did not influence this attack at all" (Internet Sarcasm alert)

So me responding to your response of my post is hardly a "Sly cheap shot"

Ill conclude that Im happy my evil propaganda is finally taking its toll on you. You finally have begun to concede that these men may have killed regardless of foreign policy. Im making great progress it seems. Ill also jump on board your proposal to ignore the irrelevant by ignoring anymore of your arguments against Moshe Feiglin but if you want I can look up his email and you can continue this discussion with him as most of your posts have to do with him rather than me.

Keith and stuff
05-23-2013, 04:22 PM
...big cities are scum magnets.
Unfortunately, it is true. Often, they are also pollution magnets.

Ender
05-23-2013, 05:24 PM
Im really sorry your intellectually incapable of carrying on a civil discourse regarding this topic. Not being able to defend your points is not excuse for personal and baseless attacks.

Civil discourse?

Show me one of your posts on this thread that resembles "civil discourse" and I'll give it a try.

In the meantime, your ranting/innuendos/name-calling is already quite old.

juleswin
05-23-2013, 05:56 PM
Yo, everyone calm down, no need to worry, this one wasn't a real attack as usual, just been revealed by a crappy YouTube video as just another false flag, everyone knows extreme Muslims can't actually do terrorist attacks themselves...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zfa3gXTqOH8

:facepalm:

For someone that has slaughtered a goat before I can tell you that it is just about impossible to cuts its head off without getting a good amount of blood spatter on your apron. Not saying I believe the CT but getting blood only on the hands does seem fishy. And also the whole staged thing might explain the relaxed behaviour we see among the crowd.

I don't care what people in the area think of British soldier but when human beings witness a beheading they will either run for dear life or attack the attacker. You just don't walk around like nothing happened.

ClydeCoulter
05-23-2013, 06:14 PM
"And he was later pronounced dead", speaking about the headless man.... ROFLMAO, what?

klamath
05-23-2013, 06:18 PM
For someone that has slaughtered a goat before I can tell you that it is just about impossible to cuts its head off without getting a good amount of blood spatter on your apron. Not saying I believe the CT but getting blood only on the hands does seem fishy. And also the whole staged thing might explain the relaxed behaviour we see among the crowd.

I don't care what people in the area think of British soldier but when human beings witness a beheading they will either run for dear life or attack the attacker. You just don't walk around like nothing happened.And if it was staged they wouldn't have had extras walking around acting out of character for the staged play.

ravedown
05-23-2013, 06:29 PM
this quote is really interesting-what a shame it took a brutal murder for this to get attention, and a shame so many will only see it as the ravings of a evil muslim psycho:

The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Shari'a in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? Rather you lot are extreme. You are the ones that when you drop a bomb you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? This is the reality. By Allah if I saw your mother today with a buggy I would help her up the stairs. This is my nature. But we are forced by the Qur'an, in Sura At-Tawba, through many ayah in the Qu'ran, we must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? You think politicians are going to die? No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so can all live in peace. So leave our lands and we can all live in peace. That’s all I have to say. [in Arabic:] Allah’s peace and blessings be upon you.

BlackTerrel
05-23-2013, 07:06 PM
I think what helps the false flags or has helped them in the past is that even though the Muslims accused of doing them are patsies, a lot of Muslims believe the official stories and sympathize with the alleged terrorists. They don't participate in terrorism themselves because they fear the consequences but they don't find it morally wrong. And so this further inflames everyone against them, pretty understandably. Just because governments do false flag terrorism doesn't mean that Islam is awesome or that all Muslim terrorism is fake.

Which Muslim terrorism is real?

This is the first time I've seen the majority of members on this forum agree that there was violence by a Muslim against someone else and it was not a false flag.

BlackTerrel
05-23-2013, 07:12 PM
That's bullshit. The first suicide bombers in the ME were Israelis.

The kinds of "terrorism" you are talking about is done by people with no money.

Pretty sure Bin Laden grew up a billionaire.

And the butcher guy this thread is about grew up what sounds like middle class in England, was raised Christian, and had a pretty normal upbringing until he was radicalized.

BlackTerrel
05-23-2013, 07:16 PM
I'm sure Israel's treatment of Palestinians did not influence this attack at all. :rolleyes:

This is such a bullshit excuse.

This guy was born Christian, in England.


This would be like if I cut off Hakeem Olajuwon's head due to treatment of Christians in Egypt. Would that be any sort of justification? (That said Hakeem is seven foot so it might be hard for me to do).


Judaism has nothing to do with this topic but the State of Israel certainly does.

From at least the Balfour Declaration on, the West has decided that the ME is theirs to do as they please.

And people are so surprised that there are ME radicals?

He is not an ME radical. He was born in England to Christian parents and converted to Islam a while back.

tod evans
05-23-2013, 07:19 PM
Pretty sure Bin Laden grew up a billionaire.

And the butcher guy this thread is about grew up what sounds like middle class in England, was raised Christian, and had a pretty normal upbringing until he was radicalized.

WTF does this mean exactly?

Kind of like lobotomized?

Mani
05-23-2013, 07:52 PM
F
Ban terrorism.

Ban steel.

Ban bad thoughts.

Oh FFS, ban something!

ban brown people....

And the Chinese support north Korea and Pakistan so they can't be trusted.....ban Asians.....

And black people with long names.....might be a moooslem....

enhanced_deficit
05-23-2013, 07:59 PM
Pretty sure Bin Laden grew up a billionaire.

And the butcher guy this thread is about grew up what sounds like middle class in England, was raised Christian, and had a pretty normal upbringing until he was radicalized.


More like a millionaire and he grew up with fantasies to turn his dad's construction business vehicles into tanks to take revenge for "bloodbath" of Palestinians according to his biography that came out after 9/11. A Palestinian heritage family that grew rich in Saudi Arabia due to lucrative construction contracts including those for royal business and US bases there if I'm not mistaken.

Ender
05-23-2013, 08:03 PM
Pretty sure Bin Laden grew up a billionaire.

And the butcher guy this thread is about grew up what sounds like middle class in England, was raised Christian, and had a pretty normal upbringing until he was radicalized.

I don't believe I ever mentioned Bin Laden.

I was talking about suicide bombers etc.

Ender
05-23-2013, 08:09 PM
This is such a bullshit excuse.

This guy was born Christian, in England.


This would be like if I cut off Hakeem Olajuwon's head due to treatment of Christians in Egypt. Would that be any sort of justification? (That said Hakeem is seven foot so it might be hard for me to do).



He is not an ME radical. He was born in England to Christian parents and converted to Islam a while back.

Again- I was NOT talking about this attacker, per se- you should really read the whole thread before assuming.

BlackTerrel
05-23-2013, 08:14 PM
How much more likely am I to be murdered by a muslim crazed lunatic than by a drug crazed lunatic?

Some people are just desperately afraid of living in a free society, I guess. Lucky for you, "the government" is working diligently to relieve your stress.

What percent of Americans are killed by drones? By your logic we shouldn't talk about that either.

BlackTerrel
05-23-2013, 08:18 PM
And the butcher guy this thread is about grew up what sounds like middle class in England, was raised Christian, and had a pretty normal upbringing until he was radicalized.


WTF does this mean exactly?

Kind of like lobotomized?

By accounts of people who knew him growing up he was a normal dude and then converted and started becoming angrier and more radical. Which part of that doesn't make sense?

BlackTerrel
05-23-2013, 08:23 PM
Again- I was NOT talking about this attacker, per se- you should really read the whole thread before assuming.

Not per se but it was certainly implied given that this is a thread about this particular attacker - and the thread title describes it as taking place due to intervention in Muslim lands.


this quote is really interesting-what a shame it took a brutal murder for this to get attention, and a shame so many will only see it as the ravings of a evil muslim psycho:

The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Shari'a in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? Rather you lot are extreme. You are the ones that when you drop a bomb you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? This is the reality. By Allah if I saw your mother today with a buggy I would help her up the stairs. This is my nature. But we are forced by the Qur'an, in Sura At-Tawba, through many ayah in the Qu'ran, we must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? You think politicians are going to die? No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so can all live in peace. So leave our lands and we can all live in peace. That’s all I have to say. [in Arabic:] Allah’s peace and blessings be upon you.

What exactly is "our land"? This guy was born in England to Christian parents. What connection does he have to those lands? A shared religion? By that logic I have a connection to Serbia.

kcchiefs6465
05-23-2013, 08:57 PM
This is such a bullshit excuse.

This guy was born Christian, in England.
It is not an excuse. I've written near pages explaining this. This man states very clearly and calmly why he did what he did. I would be willing to bet that he is aware of the treatment of Palestinians. Whoever "radicalized" (the word is losing all meaning with the triviality it is thrown around with) the men most surely mentioned it. Bin Laden has mentioned it. Anwar Al-Awlaki mentioned it. There are rappers in Britain who speak about it. I bet a dollar to a hundred that it influenced their attack. It isn't an excuse for their crime. It is not justification for their attack. It is one of their motives though. I would go out on a limb and say that.



This would be like if I cut off Hakeem Olajuwon's head due to treatment of Christians in Egypt. Would that be any sort of justification? (That said Hakeem is seven foot so it might be hard for me to do).
The football player? (I think he's a lineman anyways) Good luck. All that said your analogy has no basis. Olajuwon is not a soldier, though they very well could have just killed random people and that is often times what happens.


He is not an ME radical. He was born in England to Christian parents and converted to Islam a while back.
The word radical is trivialized with its overusage. "Is Rand Paul a Radical" for example. I don't like the term. What him being born to Christian parents has to do with anything I do not know. Many killers are born to Christian parents.

The man clearly stated what his issue was. Some still choose to ignore it. That's all fine. If we continue down the path we've been on there will be many more examples of blowback. Our foreign policy does not make us safer. Case in point. I wonder if we shell another country if things will get better? Is it possible to kill all those who wish us harm? Or are the missiles used that inadvertantly kill innocent civilians including children inciting more people to take up arms against us? It is perpetual warfare to America's detriment. That is what people should get from this.

To simply state this man was insane is missing a root cause. That is not to say he might not have killed someone else for whatever reason, but that is not excusing that he killed that specific man for those reasons. Again, no excuses, just reason. I personally would like to see peace at some point in my life time. It is not going to happen with the arrogant attitude that we can do whatever we want, wherever we want with no consequence. It is foolish and needs to end. (case in point would be drone warfare and the multiple violations of sovereignty.. We have been warned.)

A Son of Liberty
05-24-2013, 03:41 AM
What percent of Americans are killed by drones? By your logic we shouldn't talk about that either.

:facepalm:

The US government has the ability to put tens of thousands of drones - hundreds per state - in the air right now. Beyond the chances of being killed, those drones will represent a threat to our privacy and security.

Thousands of "muslim extremists" couldn't dream of accomplishing what a single drone in the hands of the state absolutely can - and has.

AGAIN, it is about discerning, recognizing and prioritizing threats, as I alluded with the drug crazed lunatic analogy. Talk about whatever you want. You wanna talk about the clear and imminent threat posed by flesh-eating zombies? Have at it. But rational people won't take you seriously.

tod evans
05-24-2013, 05:41 AM
and had a pretty normal upbringing until he was radicalized.


WTF does this mean exactly?

Kind of like lobotomized?


By accounts of people who knew him growing up he was a normal dude and then converted and started becoming angrier and more radical. Which part of that doesn't make sense?

In your second post you place the blame on the radical dude whereas the term used initially "radicalized" would lead one to believe the radical behavior was caused by another...

The-Newz uses that term too which causes me to question who exactly they plan on pointing the finger at for causing young men to become radicals...

Every one of us is responsible for our actions, we may permit another to incite radical behavior on their behalf but in the end blame must fall on he who is radical...

New adverbs invented by Newz-speak with the intention of placing blame for behavior elsewhere...

RonPaulFanInGA
05-24-2013, 05:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Zfa3gXTqOH8

:facepalm:

Crazy never rests.

seraphson
05-24-2013, 06:59 AM
Yeah,, it's diversity.. That is the problem.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugNeWkeGYm8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUVtdKsc8ww

What the fuck?

Chav? Is that some fucked up offspring from inbreeding Jersey Shore folk and Juggalos?

Also what's up with that football rioting non-sense? Not saying our shit (Merica') smells better but I'm glad I was born here rather than that socialistic cesspool across the pond. No wonder they banned guns. They're fucking crazy. DOZENS of people dying. From football? Fuck out.

juleswin
05-24-2013, 07:45 AM
Crazy never rests.

Crazier than hacking a man to death, then cutting his head off and the not having the blood stop at the sleeves? You only need CSI watching experience to know that there is something very usual about the blood pattern on the attacker's clothing.

This leaves out the calm behaviour of the crowd who just witnessed a man "hack" another man to death.

The Freethinker
05-25-2013, 02:46 PM
I barely read any of this thread's earlier comments, and I have no idea if this is a false flag.

If this isn't a false flag and rather, what it is said to be, it's horrifying and infuriating. I'm an immigrant to the US myself, (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?402783-Judge-Napolitano-quot-Immigration-is-a-right-quot&p=4846215#post4846215) and while there are things I strongly disagree w/ regarding US foreign policy, I would NEVER agree with assaulting and killing an unarmed, plainsclothes soldier. SICKENING.

enhanced_deficit
05-25-2013, 05:39 PM
In case readers of this thread were not aware, similar attack in France is being reported:

French soldier stabbed in neck on Paris road

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?415568-French-soldier-stabbed-in-neck-on-Paris-road-French-military-begins-Mali-withdrawal&

CPUd
05-25-2013, 08:17 PM
Crazier than hacking a man to death, then cutting his head off and the not having the blood stop at the sleeves? You only need CSI watching experience to know that there is something very usual about the blood pattern on the attacker's clothing.

This leaves out the calm behaviour of the crowd who just witnessed a man "hack" another man to death.

LOL real life is not CSI.

In some neighborhoods, rubbernecking can get you killed. If something goes down, you don't stop and look at the guy with the knife, you keep on walking.

Christian Liberty
05-25-2013, 08:20 PM
This oughta confirm the idiot gallery about the need for more security and more war.

It won't, because the media will censor it...

As for the guy, I'm not happy he's dead, of course, but he had SOME NERVE wearing a "Help for Heroes" t-shirt. The arrogance!

kcchiefs6465
05-25-2013, 08:34 PM
LOL real life is not CSI.

In some neighborhoods, rubbernecking can get you killed. If something goes down, you don't stop and look at the guy with the knife, you keep on walking.
Well that's true. CSI isn't that realistic but I would have expected more of a blood splatter. Not that I think it is some sort of a cover up or that the video was edited. They probably didn't slash but stabbed the man. Can't really tell one way or the other.

Not that anyone here would feel sympathy towards the attackers (rightfully so) but the police executed the men. I would have liked to have seen some restraint and the men brought to trial. I know they commited a gruesome crime but that is pretty much a daily occurence. I am referring to the extra couple of shots towards the end of this video. Unnecessary imo. Graphic so fair warning.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvddMY7VATg

enhanced_deficit
05-25-2013, 08:36 PM
Latest report has more detail.


He said he thought Adebolajo's behaviour changed after a trip to Kenya last year, and alleged that Britain's MI5 domestic spy agency tried to recruit him upon his return six months ago.

[/B]
Questions abound over what could have led the two men to attack Rigby, a drummer and machine-gunner who had served in Afghanistan and was off-duty when he was walking near his barracks. Nusaybah's interview with the BBC offered one possible narrative. He said Adebolajo became withdrawn after he allegedly suffered abuse by Kenyan security forces during interrogation in prison there.

kcchiefs6465
05-25-2013, 08:40 PM
Latest report has more detail.



In his BBC interview, Nusaybah said he knew Adebolajo as a moderate Islam convert. He said he thought Adebolajo's behaviour changed after a trip to Kenya last year, and alleged that Britain's MI5 domestic spy agency tried to recruit him upon his return six months ago.

Yes, apparently the man giving that interview (Nusaybah) was wanted by the police for questioning with regards to this attack. He was arrested at the news station after giving the interview.

Two women and a man were also arrested. The two women were released and the man kept. I believe his charge was something along the lines of conspiracy. Or whatever they call it in Britain.

kcchiefs6465
05-27-2013, 11:41 AM
Andrew Sullivan, terrorism, and the art of distortion

Challenging the conventional western narrative on terrorism produces unique amounts of rage and bile. It's worth examining why

Glenn Greenwald

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/25/andrew-sullivan-distortion-terrorism-woolwich

guardian.co.uk, Saturday 25 May 2013 09.32 EDT

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/5/25/1369486766507/nato.png
Afghan villagers in the Kunar province sit near the bodies of 10 children killed in a Nato airstrike in Afghanistan on 7 April 2013. Photograph: Reuters

(updated below)

Everyone who participates in political debates sometimes has their arguments publicly misrepresented. Like many writers, if I noted and refuted every case where that happened to me, I would have time for nothing else. But sometimes the distortions are so fundamental and obvious - as well as pernicious - that they are worth examining. I had intended to write today about the reaction to this week's War on Terror speech by President Obama, but will postpone that until tomorrow so that I can instead discuss what Andrew Sullivan (and others) did yesterday. Beyond my wanting to correct their glaring distortions, the episode raises some interesting broader points that drive debates on these issues.

On Thursday, I wrote about the London killing of a British soldier by two men using a meat cleaver. The sub-headline, which I wrote, called it a "horrific act of violence", a phrase I repeated in the very first sentence. I described that event as one where the solider had been "hacked to death". In the second paragraph, I wrote:


That this was a barbaric and horrendous act goes without saying."

I then proceeded to raise two main points about the attack. First, given that the person killed was not a civilian but a soldier of a nation at war (using US standards), it is difficult to devise a definition of "terrorism" that encompasses this attack while excluding large numbers of recent acts by the US, the UK and many of their allies and partners.

Second, despite the self-serving bewilderment that is typically expressed whenever western nations are the targets rather than perpetrators of violence - why would anyone possibly be so monstrous and savage as to want to attack us this way? - the answer is actually well-known and well-documented. As explained by the CIA ("blowback"), the Pentagon (they "do not 'hate our freedom,' but rather, they hate our policies"), former CIA agents ("we could try invading, occupying and droning Muslim countries a little less, and see if that helps. Maybe prop up fewer corrupt and tyrannical Muslim regimes"), and British combat veterans ("it should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home"), spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well. In the London case, the attacker cited precisely such anger at US/UK aggression as his motive ("this British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. . . . the only reason we killed this man is because Muslims are dying daily"). Those are just facts.

Having written about these matters many times before, I know exactly how some people reflexively try to radically distort the argument beyond recognition in order to smear you as a Terror apologist, a Terrorist-lover or worse, all for the thought crime of raising these issues. To do so, they deceitfully conflate claims of causation (A is one of the causes of B) with justification (B is justified). Anyone operating with the most basic levels of rationality understands that these concepts are distinct. To discuss what motivates a person to engage in Action B is not remotely to justify Action B.

To use the example recently provided by former CIA agent Barry Eisler in his brilliant explanation of "blowback", if Person X walks up to Person Y on the street and spits in his face, and Person Y then pulls out a gun and shoots Person X in the head and kills him in retaliation, one can observe that Person X's spitting was a causal factor in Person Y's behavior without remotely justifying Person Y's lethal violence. One can point out that a potential cost of walking up to people on the street and spitting in their face is that they are likely to respond with similar or worse aggression - and that this is one reason not to engage in such behavior - without justifying or legitimizing the response that is provoked and without denying (or even minimizing) the agency or blame of the person who responds.

This is all so basic and self-evident that it should be unnecessary to point it out. But I know from prior experience in having my arguments on this issue wildly distorted and smeared that it's quite necessary. So I did point it out: by several times making clear exactly what I was - and was not - arguing, and did so as explicitly as the English language permits:

As I've endlessly pointed out, highlighting this causation doesn't remotely justify the acts."

Concerning whether this attack should be categorized as "terrorism", I explained precisely why it's vital to ask that question: because the term bears such great significance legally, politically, culturally, and emotionally and yet has no clear or consistently applied definition, and is thus used as a propaganda tool to glorify violence and other conduct by western states while rendering inherently illegitimate all violence directed at those states. In doing so, I was equally explicit about what I was and was not arguing [emphasis added]:


"I know this vital caveat will fall on deaf ears for some, but nothing about this discussion has anything to do with justifiability. An act can be vile, evil, and devoid of justification without being 'terrorism': indeed, most of the worst atrocities of the 20th Century, from the Holocaust to the wanton slaughter of Stalin and Pol Pot and the massive destruction of human life in Vietnam, are not typically described as 'terrorism'. To question whether something qualifies as 'terrorism' is not remotely to justify or even mitigate it. That should go without saying, though I know it doesn't."

If anyone knows of a way to make that any clearer, do let me know.

So now we come to what Andrew Sullivan and others told their readers that I argued. Announcing at the start that "I really have to try restrain my anger here", Sullivan quickly accused me of spreading "Islamist propaganda". Arguing that US intervention in the Muslim world both before and after the 9/11 attack was noble and often beneficent - yes, he actually argued that with a straight face - he demands to know of me: "How can that legitimize a British citizen's brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London?" He then added: "The idea that this foul, religious bigotry . . . is some kind of legitimate protest against a fast-ending war is just perverse." He concludes with a real flourish: my "blindness to the savagery at the heart of Salafism", he decrees, "is very hard to understand, let alone forgive".

That I "legitimated" the London attack or argued it was a "legitimate protest" is as obvious a fabrication as it gets. Not only did I argue no such thing, and not only did I say the exact opposite of what Sullivan and others falsely attribute to me, but I expressly repudiated - in advance - the very claims they try to impose on me. Even vociferous critics of what I wrote, writing in neocon venues, understood this point ("I do find myself wanting to agree with Greenwald in arguing that this is an atrocious murder rather than an act of terror"). Does Sullivan actually think that people who argued that the London attack should not be called "terrorism" (like Chris Hayes), or who pointed out the role played by western aggression in motivating them (like former British soldier Joe Glenton), or who have long warned of "blowback" in the form of such attacks (like the CIA and Pentagon), are remotely arguing that the attack was justified? Sullivan's behavior evinces a blatant inability or refusal to critique what I wrote without distorting it beyond all recognition.

So self-evident was Sullivan's Friday night bad conduct here that, within hours, numerous people had harshly condemned it. Law professor Kevin Jon Heller wrote: "Sullivan distorts Greenwald's argument beyond all recognition; I can only assume deliberately." University of Chicago Professor Harold Pollack complained that he "shouldn't have to click past Sullivan's angry post to see that Greenwald labelled [the] beheading 'barbaric and horrendous'". One of Sullivan's readers wrote him a lengthy and very astute email, published in full here, explaining to him that "your fundamental misreading of Greenwald's column is succinctly stated in your sentence: 'How can that [U.S. history in the Mideast] legitimize a British citizen's brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London?' Greenwald never remotely said that."

Now we arrive at the broader points that I think are raised by all of this. Contrary to Professor Heller's suggestion, I actually don't think that Sullivan's flagrant misrepresentations of what I wrote were deliberate. I definitely do think that about Jeffrey Goldberg and other various neocon smear artists who spent the last couple of days endlessly and loudly accusing me of being a pro-Terror, US-blaming Terrorist-lover, Jew-hating Terror-apologist and all the other tired neocon clichés that have been hurled at anyone and everyone over the last decade who questions the Mandated Narratives about "Islamic Terror", the US and Israel. Willfully smearing people as pro-Terrorists in order to deter free and rational discussions of US and Israeli aggression is what they do. It's their function, their chosen tactic. One expects that from them. It's just part of the landscape. Had it been confined to that crowd, I barely would have noticed, let alone responded. They and their deceitful smear tactics ceased being effective eight or nine years ago. Nobody cares anymore.

But Sullivan's behavior here is more interesting and revealing. He's certainly smart enough to comprehend the points being made, so that's not the problem. Amazingly, as his reader pointed out, Sullivan - a mere ten days ago - himself sought to defend President Obama (his life's mission) in the Benghazi controversy by posting an article in the American Prospect arguing as follows:


Benghazi was not a terrorist act. Or an act of terror. Or an act of terrorism . . . . So why wasn't Benghazi terrorism? Because the people targeted weren't civilians."

That's exactly the argument I raised about the London attack that sent Sullivan into spasms of moral denunciation. Does denying that the Benghazi attack was "an act of terror" mean that one is justifying it? Sullivan answered that very question when he quoted that same Benghazi article as explaining: "That doesn't make their deaths any less tragic or painful for their families, but it's the truth. Nor is a CIA outpost a civilian target." Indeed, as I documented, the only standards that could be used to support the choice of an off-duty solider in London as a target to kill are the standards promulgated by the US (which I vehemently reject) that holds that we are "at war", that "the entire globe is a battlefield", and that it's legitimate to kill anyone suspected of being a combatant in that "war" no matter where they are located or what they are doing at the time they are targeted for killing.

So Sullivan not only understands my point here, but grants himself license to make it himself when doing so advances his cause of praising and defending Obama. What, then, accounts for the distortions and sustained rage that ensues every time I make these arguments - not just from Sullivan but generally?

I think the answer lies in the very first sentence Sullivan wrote when responding to my column: "I really have to try restrain my anger here." It's an intensely emotional reaction, not a rational one. He, and so many others, are deeply invested on a psychological and personal level in protecting the narrative that Islam is a uniquely violent force in the world, that Muslim extremists pose a threat that nobody else poses, and that the US, the West and its allies (including Israel) are morally superior and more civilized than their adversaries, and their violence is more noble and elevated.

Labeling the violent acts of those Muslim Others as "terrorism" - but never our own - is a key weapon used to propagate this worldview. The same is true of the tactic that depicts their violence against us as senseless, primitive, savage and without rational cause, while glorifying our own violence against them as noble, high-minded, benevolent and civilized (we slaughter them with shiny, high-tech drones, cluster bombs, jet fighters and cruise missiles, while they use meat cleavers and razor blades). These are the core propagandistic premises used to sustain the central narrative on which the War on Terror has depended from the start (and, by the way, have been the core premises of imperialism for centuries). That is why those most invested in defending and glorifying this War on Terror become so enraged when those premises are challenged, and it's why they feel a need to use any smears and distortions (he's justifying terrorism!) to discredit those who do. As Sullivan's reader perfectly put it in his email:


"The emotional intensity with which you demand that the London attack be described as 'terrorism' (as opposed to 'horrific act of violence,' 'killing,' 'hack to death,' 'barbaric and horrendous act,' etc., as Greenwald writes) only confirms Greenwald's point that it is important to define what 'terrorism' means, particularly because certain folks have an emotional, political and/or legal reason for insisting on its usage. What free thinker would want to shout down that discussion? Respectfully, that is 'very hard to understand, let alone forgive.'"

But as was clear from the furor that erupted after the debate over the anti-Muslim views of Sam Harris and company, and as is demonstrated again by Sullivan's unhinged reaction here to what I wrote, the need to maintain the belief that Islam is a uniquely grave danger in the world - and that western violence against them is superior to their violence against the west - is one that is incredibly deep-seated and visceral. That seems to be true for several independent reasons.

First, it's a by-product of base tribalism. Americans and westerners have been relentlessly bombarded with the message that We are the Noble and Innocent Victims and those Muslims are the Evil, Primitive, Savage Aggressors, so that's what many people are trained to believe, and view any challenge to that as an assault on their core tribalistic convictions. The defining tribalistic belief that Our Side is Superior (and our violence thus inherently more noble than theirs) has been stoked by political leaders since politics began to sustain support for their aggression and entrench their own power. It's a potent drive - something humans instinctively want to believe - and is therefore one that is easily manipulated by skillful propagandists.

Second, all sorts of agendas are advanced by maintaining these premises in place. As the scholar Remi Brulin has documented, "terrorism" in its recent incarnation was designed by the US to justify all of the violence it wanted to do in the world from Central America to the Middle East, and by Israel to universalize the vicious and intractable conflicts it has with its Arab neighbors (our wars aren't just our fights with them over land; it's a global struggle to stop a plague that is also your fight: against Terrorism). A great new book by Harvard's Lisa Stampnitzky makes the argument indicated by its title: "Disciplining Terror: How Experts Invented 'Terrorism'". The functional meaninglessness of the term "terrorism" and its highly manipulative exploitation are vital to several political agendas. That fact renders the guardians of those agendas furious when the conventional and highly emotional understanding of the term is questioned, and especially when it's suggested that anti-western violence isn't best understood as the by-product of unique pathologies in Islam but rather in the context of decades of western aggression toward that region.

Indeed, most of the responses to my argument ignored the questions I posed about the definition of "terrorism" and instead rested on pure irrational rage: this was a Muslim who used a knife to kill a westerner; of course it was terrorism (or, as Sullivan put it, "If we cannot call a man who does that in the name of God and finishes by warning his fellow citizens 'You will never be safe' a terrorist, who would fit that description, apart, of course, in Glenn's view, Barack Obama?"). Or, alternatively, critics of what I wrote simply fabricated what I argued (he blames the west and thinks the Terrorists have no agency!), or spewed outrage at the mere suggestion that anything the west does is comparable to the violence we saw on the London street. As his emailer put it about the rational discussion Sullivan allowed himself about whether the Benghazi attack was terrorism: "Imagine if someone then responded to you pointing out that fact (like Greenwald did) with the type of sanctimonious outburst that you showed here. Would you have even taken it seriously?"

Third, and I think most significantly, there is a very potent human need to deny responsibility for our own actions and avoid being shown the worst attributes of our own behavior, and a corresponding "kill-the-messenger" impulse aimed at those who want to focus on (rather than hide) all of that. It's not irrelevant that Sullivan (along with Jeffrey Goldberg, Tom Friedman and Christopher Hitchens) was one of the world's most vocal, most passionate, and most effective media cheerleaders for the attack on Iraq (which he yesterday acknowledged was "a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe" even while justifying it on the ground that it "removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet"). But Sullivan was not only that: he also led the way (along with Hitchens) in implanting in the public mind the idea that the US and the UK were leading a Grand Civilization War, and he spouted some of the most repellent rhetoric of demonization against anyone who uttered any protest.

Sullivan, to his credit, has since apologized for his leading public role in all of that. But as his response to me (and other recent posts) make clear, the Civilization Warrior who accuses people of being sympathetic to The Terrorists is still always lurking close to the surface ("Islam's fanatical side – from the Taliban to the Tsarnaevs – is more murderous than most", he wrote last month). I don't think it's hard to see why he, along with so many others, clings so fervently, even instinctively, to these precepts.

No matter how many evil things your government does, no matter how many innocent people are killed by the political leader you deliriously adore, no matter how much blood you have on your own hands for exploiting your media platform to publicly cheer for mass violence and slaughter, all of that can be redeemed, or at least mitigated, only if there is Someone Else Over There who you can point to as The Supreme and Unique Evil. Sure, we make mistakes and do some bad things. But we're not like them: the Ultimate Savages. The Primitive Islamic Hordes. The Terrorists. That's why it's urgent that these designations of special evil (Terrorist) be reserved exclusively for Them: only then can we elevate ourselves.

Once that framework is implanted, then our violence is understandable, noble, well-intentioned, necessitated by their pure evil. By stark contrast, their violence is sub-human, senseless, and utterly unrelated to anything we do. Just marvel at the visceral and psychologically revealing language that Sullivan, after ennobling western violence, uses for the London attack [his emphasis]: "terrorism in its most animal-like form, created and sustained entirely by religious fanaticism which would find any excuse to murder, destroy and oppress Muslims and non-Muslims in the name of God." This is the very personal need that bolsters this worldview and prompts such rage when it is challenged: the need to view oneself in a better light, to avoid the reality of what one supports and enables.

I used to wonder how people like Sullivan and other Americans and westerners, who continuously justify any manner of violence and militarism by their own side, could possibly spend so much time pointing to others and depicting them - those people over there - as the embodiment of violence and savage aggression. But at some point I realized that it's precisely because they continuously justify so much violence and aggression from their side that they have such a boundless compulsion to depict others as the Uniquely Primitive and Violent Evil. That's how they absolve themselves. It's how they distract themselves from the reality of what they support and what their governments do in the world. And it's why few things produce quite as much personal resentment and anger than demanding that they first gaze into a mirror before issuing these absolutist denunciations about others.

UPDATE

For reasons I'll let the Guardian explain, all of the comments to all of the columns and articles posted on the London attack were deleted, and the comment sections then closed. I hope that won't happen to today's column here, as the topics discussed here are not really about the attack but the broader debate about terrorism. But it's possible that it will happen again. Those wanting to post comments should be aware of this possibility before spending your time and energy to write one.

Hat tip to A/F. Great write up from Glenn Greenwald. Seemed relevant.

gwax23
05-27-2013, 03:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMDN1jVxVlg

amy31416
05-27-2013, 03:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMDN1jVxVlg

I can't watch the video, but I remember that guy from 2008--total jackass and opportunist.

gwax23
05-27-2013, 04:48 PM
I can't watch the video, but I remember that guy from 2008--total jackass and opportunist.


Wanna explain?

amy31416
05-27-2013, 04:52 PM
Wanna explain?

He's very anti-libertarian and hostile toward RP supporters. I'd bet he supports Rubio or Christie come 2016. Other than that, just my vague recollections.

Wolfgang Bohringer
05-27-2013, 06:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMDN1jVxVlg

The most interesting thing is how guys like this can never deal with the blowback issue head on.

In this case the guy at least seems to acknowledge that there is such a thing as blowback and that the words of Adebolajo's argument were: "We won't leave you alone until you leave us alone" rather than claiming that Adebolajo said "We won't leave you alone because we're crazed Mooslims" as Drudge and the government media insinuate.

But because Adebolajo didn't feel the wrath of NATO's cluster bombs first hand, according to the guy in the video Adebolajo's words mean nothing, everything he did must be attributed to Radical Islam, and we're going to have to wait for a relative of one of the CIA's victims in Pakistan or Afghanistan to get on a plane and hack a redcoat to death before the guy in the video will address the fact that it is the U.S. and its lackey's world-wide terror rampage that inspires people like Adebolajo to martyr themselves.

BlackTerrel
05-28-2013, 05:14 PM
The most interesting thing is how guys like this can never deal with the blowback issue head on.

In this case the guy at least seems to acknowledge that there is such a thing as blowback and that the words of Adebolajo's argument were: "We won't leave you alone until you leave us alone" rather than claiming that Adebolajo said "We won't leave you alone because we're crazed Mooslims" as Drudge and the government media insinuate.

Most killers give a reason for their killing. Doesn't mean it's legit.

Who is us? Dude was born in England.

Some people who share his religion were killed by British soldiers. Some people who share his religion killed people who share my religion. By that logic if I kill a Muslim is that blowback too?

juleswin
05-28-2013, 05:22 PM
Most killers give a reason for their killing. Doesn't mean it's legit.

Who is us? Dude was born in England.

Some people who share his religion were killed by British soldiers. Some people who share his religion killed people who share my religion. By that logic if I kill a Muslim is that blowback too?

Right and this also applies to killers who kill millions in the name of "War on terror". To your last question, they answer would be no, since this is the blowback to the intervention. Its just like killing the executioners that executed a convicted mass murder and then claim blow back. The blow back in the killing of the mass murderer.

enhanced_deficit
05-28-2013, 05:26 PM
2 Days after UK soldier killed, High Court ordered inquest into Iraq civilians killings

On May 22, this news was widely reported in US Media:


'An eye for an eye': British soldier beheaded, killed in barbaric machete attack (PHOTOS, VIDEO)

May 22, 2013

http://rt.com/news/woolwich-killing-emergency-cameron-650/



On May 24th, following ground breaking ruling was made by UK High Court but was pretty much ignored by US media. Anyone knows why?


UK ordered to hold inquests into civilian deaths during Iraq war

High court rules that up to 161 allegedly unlawful killings by British military should be subject of coroner-style hearings

Friday 24 May 2013 12.17 EDT

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/5/24/1369411117080/Baha-Mousa-pictured-with--010.jpgBaha Mousa pictured with his wife and children. Several other Iraqis are thought to have been beaten to death in a manner similar to him. Photograph: Reuters

A series of public inquests should be held into the deaths of civilians who are alleged to have been killed unlawfully by the British military (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/military) following the 2003 invasion of Iraq (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iraq), the high court has ruled.
In a ground-breaking judgment (http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2013/1412.html) that could have an impact on how the British military is able to conduct operations among civilians in the future, the court ruled on Friday that up to 161 deaths should be the subject of hearings modelled upon coroners' inquests.

In practice, a series of hearings – possibly amounting to more than 100 – are likely to be held as a result of the judgment, which follows a three-year legal battle on behalf of the Iraqis' families.
Each hearing must involve a "full, fair and fearless investigation accessible to the victim's families and to the public", the court ruled, and should examine not only the immediate circumstances but other issues surrounding each death.

As a first step, the court ordered Philip Hammond, the defence secretary, to announce within six weeks whether any of the deaths are to result in prosecutions, or to explain any further delays over prosecuting decisions.
After years of judicial review proceedings, and in the face of determined opposition from the Ministry of Defence (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/ministry-of-defence), which appeared anxious to maintain control over any investigative process, the court concluded that hearings modelled upon coroners' inquests were the best way for the British authorities to meet their obligations under article 2 of the European convention on human rights (ECHR) (http://book.coe.int/sysmodules/RBS_fichier/admin/download.php?fileid=3015), which protects the right to life.

The court rejected calls for a single public inquiry to be held to examine British military detention and interrogation practices during the six-year occupation of the south-east of Iraq, on the grounds that such an inquiry would take too long and cost too much.
The first public hearings are expected to focus on 11 cases in which civilians died in British military custody. These will be followed by public examinations of other incidents in which civilians died – often in circumstances that were unclear or are disputed – but where it is alleged that British personnel used unlawful force.

The court also ruled that this should be just the start of the process by which public hearings will examine the alleged misconduct of some members of the British armed forces who served in Iraq.
Following the completion of the Article 2 hearings – into allegedly unlawful killings – further hearings should be established in order to meet the UK's obligations under Article 3 of the ECHR, the court said. These will inquire into allegations of torture and lesser mistreatment of individuals detained by British troops in Iraq, focusing on a sample of the most serious of the 700-plus cases in which such allegations have been made.

In December last year the MoD said it had paid out £14m in compensation and costs to 205 Iraqis who alleged unlawful imprisonment and mistreatment (http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/dec/20/mod-iraqi-torture-victims), and that it was negotiating a further 196 payments. Several hundred more claims were expected to be lodged.
Many of the hearings that examine allegations of torture and mistreatment are expected to shed light on the activities of a British interrogation unit known as the Joint Forward Interrogation Team (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/05/military-iraq), whose personnel, drawn from all three branches of the services, appear to have received training in the abuse of prisoners.
The deaths in custody include those of a number of teenagers (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/12/iraqi-citizen-murders-servicemen-suspects) who drowned after allegedly being pushed into canals.

In another case, an RAF police investigation into the death of a man who was allegedly kicked to death while on board an RAF helicopter failed to establish the cause of death, or even the dead man's name. A Guardian investigation (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/iraq-death-secret-detention-camp) established that there were concerns that MoD officials may have interfered with the initial investigation because they feared a prosecution could lead to the discovery that the dead man – and large numbers of other prisoners – were being ferried to a secret interrogation centre that had been concealed from both British army (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/british-army) lawyers and the Red Cross.

A third case concerns a mother who was shot and wounded in November 2006 when troops raided her home. She was certified dead on arrival at a first aid post, and her body was later dumped at the side of a road in a British army body bag.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/26/1288116718545/Baha-Mousa--003.jpg Baha Mousa. Photograph: Liberty/PA Several other victims died after being detained for interrogation, and are thought to have been beaten to death in a manner similar to that of Baha Mousa (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/12/iraqi-citizen-murders-servicemen-suspects), the Basra hotel receptionist who was murdered by British soldiers in September 2003.

The court said it had examined "allegations of the most serious kind involving murder, manslaughter, the wilful infliction of serious bodily injury, sexual indignities, cruel inhuman and degrading treatment and large scale violation of international humanitarian law".
The judgment from Sir John Thomas, president of the Queen's Bench Division, and Mr Justice Silber, added that there was evidence to support claims that some of the abuse had been systemic, and questioned whether responsibility for poor training and a failure to investigate promptly lay with senior officers and figures in government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/uk-inquests-civilian-deaths-iraq-war

gwax23
05-28-2013, 05:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz267A6jhbw

enhanced_deficit
05-28-2013, 05:41 PM
Should moslems listen to this non-elected guy or an elected American president? Elected US President encouraged Afghan Moslem Jihad and compared Afghan Jihadis to Amercas Founding Fathers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipszh14WPFY