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View Full Version : Picking battles ... should I refuse to answer questions for my Son's birth certificate?




FriedChicken
05-21-2013, 03:56 PM
I live in Indiana.
My wife had our child at home.

So, as we expected, now we have to make an appointment with the health department to get our son a birth certificate. Our last child was born in a hospital so the hospital did most of the paperwork for us and we more or less just signed for it from what I can remember.

The issue:

I don't think they have a right to know the answer to many of these questions but I am told that they won't give him a certificate of birth unless we answer all of them.

Furthermore - since the hospital fills these out for patients regularly I don't see how this CAN'T be a breach in Dr./patient confidentiality. MANY of the questions would require sharing details of the mother's private health records.

Anytime I deal with the government I want to get an attitude and cause a problem just for the principle of the matter and just to get by with life I pick and choose my battles.

... anyone have suggestions on this one?
what I really want to do is refuse to answer any question not directly pertaining to the proof of my son's birth and then take them to court to force them to accept it and give us the certificate ... no idea what I would be getting into and don't really know what I would prove by doing so or how much it would cost.

Here is a copy of the form they want us to fill out: http://www.in.gov/isdh/files/IndianaBirthworksheetVer26.pdf

Everyday at some point we submit to government when we know we shouldn't have to, this will probably be one of those times ... but I'm nearing the boiling point.

JK/SEA
05-21-2013, 04:01 PM
found this. Not sure how official it is, or if you don't answer certain questions what may happen...

http://us-birthcertificate.org/ver4/birthrequest_form.php?PPG=USBIRTH&source=CCN-CD340-GOO-TF-BC-Copy-Ver4-copy2-birth%20certificate%20copy&dn=US-BirthCertificate.org/ver4&d=US-BirthCertificate.org/ver4&t=&TargetSite=USBIRTHV4&head=Birth%20Certificate%20Copy&sub=Provider%20of%20US%20Vital%20Records%20Forms&head=Birth%20Certificate%20Copy&sub=Provider%20of%20US%20Vital%20Records%20Forms

edit..nevermind. Just saw that all fields are required...oh well. Goodluck.

ZENemy
05-21-2013, 04:02 PM
I live in Indiana.
My wife had our child at home.

So, as we expected, now we have to make an appointment with the health department to get our son a birth certificate. Our last child was born in a hospital so the hospital did most of the paperwork for us and we more or less just signed for it from what I can remember.

The issue:

I don't think they have a right to know the answer to many of these questions but I am told that they won't give him a certificate of birth unless we answer all of them.

Furthermore - since the hospital fills these out for patients regularly I don't see how this CAN'T be a breach in Dr./patient confidentiality. MANY of the questions would require sharing details of the mother's private health records.

Anytime I deal with the government I want to get an attitude and cause a problem just for the principle of the matter and just to get by with life I pick and choose my battles.

... anyone have suggestions on this one?
what I really want to do is refuse to answer any question not directly pertaining to the proof of my son's birth and then take them to court to force them to accept it and give us the certificate ... no idea what I would be getting into and don't really know what I would prove by doing so or how much it would cost.

Here is a copy of the form they want us to fill out: http://www.in.gov/isdh/files/IndianaBirthworksheetVer26.pdf

Everyday at some point we submit to government when we know we shouldn't have to, this will probably be one of those times ... but I'm nearing the boiling point.


Ask them to show you a law that compels you to answer.

Line by line

"Do you have written authorization and or proof that I am liable for such information, if you do, please produce it"

If they cannot answer that, say "No thank you, that's my business"

ghengis86
05-21-2013, 04:36 PM
Holy shit that's a long form! I can see the legitimacy of asking where mom and dad were born, but aside from that, WTF?!

They'll probably point to a vague statute like "the IN state department of health director can request information relating to the establishment of residency and any other information that is required in the execution of their duties in compliance with statue 12.45.432, section B-S, elevinty-one.org.com.biz.suck-backslash.frontslash, paragraph 69LULZ, as specified in CFR (oops!), UCC (oops!), UN regulation 9877997644-Z."

69360
05-21-2013, 05:09 PM
I have nothing to contribute except that I wish I didn't have a BC or SS # and wish I never got them for my kids.

Barrex
05-21-2013, 05:15 PM
Congratulations....everything else would be ....

Czolgosz
05-21-2013, 05:37 PM
It's a personal call. You have almost zero support from the herd, save for the 10% of people who have unplugged.

If you're a trailblazer, this is a no-brainer.


btw, there are many things I would go back and undo, if possible. There are things that I've undone, and won't do, and haven't done. The rewiring process takes a while, and is difficult.


Oh yes, and congrats. :D

ClydeCoulter
05-21-2013, 06:16 PM
Congrats! :)

WTF is up with that form? I also live in Indiana, but had no idea all that shit was asked for just because someone is born.

Stand up? That's up to you, I could not tell you, but that's some crap right there. Perhaps, try getting your feet wet, maybe try what ZEnemy talked about, at least to test it out, then go from there.

NationalAnarchist
05-21-2013, 06:32 PM
Wow I have had 2 kids in Ga and one in SC and never had forms like that...that seems just a bit over the top...I to wish I had never gotten a SS# or as I call them slave number or a DL aka slave ID but such is life. The best we have done is no vaccines for the younger 2,oldest had them until she was 18 months and son wasn't circumcised.

pcosmar
05-21-2013, 07:04 PM
Good luck. I don't know what to tell you. Not sure there is any option other than running into the hills and hiding out..

:(
.

Icymudpuppy
05-21-2013, 07:09 PM
Make shit up. Who cares. Kid was born in USA, gets certificate, his/her choice if wants to take advantage of citizenship.

I would put in that you are a perfect white anglosaxon couple. You work for the government as an assistant file clerk, she's also a government employee, umm how about a janitorial supply clerk. Switch up, whatever.

You don't smoke, drink, everything is normal, except that the baby was born in the car on the way to the hospital, but everything went so well, you decided to just go home on the advice of a friend (unnamed) who used to be a Maternity ward medic during her 4 years in the Army.

MelissaWV
05-21-2013, 07:13 PM
The form states that most of the information is to be collected as part of a survey (more or less).


It is very important that you provide complete and accurate information to all of the questions. In addition to information
used for legal purposes, other information from the birth certificate is used by health and medical researchers to study
and improve the health of mothers and newborn infants. Items such as parent’s education, race, and smoking will be used
for studies but will not appear on copies of the birth certificate issued to you or your child.

Question 1: is said survey voluntary?

If so, cool. Leave most of it blank. I am willing to bet the hospital does. They really don't know much of that stuff about the mother or father.
If not, fill it out however you please. I would suggest erring on the side of making you guys sound like saints.

They say it is "very important." This is key. Compare this to...


Guidance on Reopen Fee Applicability Pursuant to Florida Statute
§ 28.241 (circuit court) and §34.041 (county court) filings

See how they cite actual statutes? You'll see "pursuant to statute" all the time. You'll also see, on real legal documents, a threat to charge you with perjury if you lie. I don't see that here.

Kodaddy
05-21-2013, 07:32 PM
Record the birth in a family bible...

http://m.voices.yahoo.com/how-family-bible-affidavit-of-508931.html

Henry Rogue
05-21-2013, 07:44 PM
Congratulations. Birth certificates must be government's required license to live here. Did the certificate cost anything? If so there is your birth tax.

Zippyjuan
05-21-2013, 07:47 PM
What impact would your decision have on your child's future? It will effect him/ her more than it will you.

Boss
05-21-2013, 07:50 PM
That form is disturbing.

But you have more options than either (A) Raise Hell, or (B) Don't get a BC.

If your goal is simply to retain privacy and decline to answer questions, it seems that a lot of good advice has been offered. I'd start by finding if the survey sections are voluntary. It seems they are.

FriedChicken
05-21-2013, 08:11 PM
Yeah I completely missed the 'survey' mention. My sister was told that it must be completely filled out or a certificate won't be approved, but she might have been misinformed or the person that informed her just didn't want to "deal" with telling her the truth.
I will definitely bring that up and go to the 'is there a law saying I must answer this question?' strategy afterwards.

I'm not going to not get my son a birth certificate over this, I think that would cause him a lot of trouble later in life and heck ... child services might decide that was some form of abuse or something and put him in foster care for all I know (have no idea).

I also know that the state doesn't really care and doesn't pay attention to the answers, it probably just gets put in a file (if that) and forgotten. I'm just ticked the questions are on the application to begin with ... the state has no right to know what my child was vaccinated for, the education level of my wife and if her genitals needed to be cut during labor.
I understand all that would need to be in medical records but NOT state records. So I just resent their audacity to ask.

Professor8000
05-21-2013, 09:13 PM
I read the worksheet to my mom and she said to tell them they can shove that application up their asses. So, I would say you should just write an affidavit and have it notorized then try to exchange that for a birth certificate.

ghengis86
05-21-2013, 09:55 PM
The form states that most of the information is to be collected as part of a survey (more or less).



Question 1: is said survey voluntary?

If so, cool. Leave most of it blank. I am willing to bet the hospital does. They really don't know much of that stuff about the mother or father.
If not, fill it out however you please. I would suggest erring on the side of making you guys sound like saints.

They say it is "very important." This is key. Compare this to...



See how they cite actual statutes? You'll see "pursuant to statute" all the time. You'll also see, on real legal documents, a threat to charge you with perjury if you lie. I don't see that here.

Best advice yet. Good catch and analysis.

My vote is to follow the above. Also, play dumb if someone asks why you didn't fill it completely. There's a lot of ways to get around gov 'rules'.

Lindsey
05-22-2013, 08:54 AM
I have nothing to contribute except that I wish I didn't have a BC or SS #.

This.

fisharmor
05-22-2013, 09:30 AM
What impact would your decision have on your child's future? It will effect him/ her more than it will you.

What was the last count of people living and working here with no documentation... 20 million?

Acala
05-22-2013, 10:13 AM
As I read the statute (and I have not studied it in depth) the only data the local health officer is required to record is the following:

Sec. 9. (a) The local health officer shall make a permanent record of the following from a birth certificate:
(1) Name.
(2) Sex.
(3) Date of birth.
(4) Place of birth.
(5) Name of the parents.
(6) Birthplace of the parents.
(7) The date of filing of the certificate of birth.

IC 16-37-2-9

You might just provide that information and if they ask for more, cite this statute and say that is all you are required to provide.

compromise
05-22-2013, 10:17 AM
Well, the father of the President of the United States refused to, so I don't think you need to. :D

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-22-2013, 10:20 AM
the length of that form alone would make me not want to fill it out.

XNavyNuke
05-22-2013, 10:41 AM
Great Scott! What a crazy form. My wife gave birth to several of our children at home (not in Indiana) and there was nothing like that. Of course, that was two decades ago when bureaucrats were less-intrusive bureaucrats. If it was me, I'd consult a family attorney that I had confidence in. It would be worth the couple hundred dollars.

XNN

oyarde
05-22-2013, 10:45 AM
I had three children ( that I remember) born in In, (a very long time ago ), hospital filled it out , never asked us any questions , so just used info they knew , name address etc

FriedChicken
05-22-2013, 04:07 PM
Hospital filled ours out on our first child. My sister had a baby just over a month later and filled out this exact same form (her's was born at home) so I know it isn't a recent form. I haven't looked at it again but I seem to remember some reference to the year 2011, don't remember if that was in reference to when they started the form or not.

I would think that the hospital turning in information regarding medication, if the patient smokes (and how much), details about genitals, blood sugar, etc. to the state on a form like this would be extremely illegal ... the more I think about it the more I'm convinced this HAS to be voluntary.

Everyone has offered some great advice about it and pointed out things that I didn't know (like this being a survey, not necessarily public records and the statute of all that is required for a BC)

Very interesting question on the form is whether or not you want your child to have a SS number ... I didn't realize it was an option to not have one? I don't see how you could be "legally" employed in the US without one.

We have an appointment in a week. I'll letchya'll know what happens.

ghengis86
05-22-2013, 04:14 PM
Hospital filled ours out on our first child. My sister had a baby just over a month later and filled out this exact same form (her's was born at home) so I know it isn't a recent form. I haven't looked at it again but I seem to remember some reference to the year 2011, don't remember if that was in reference to when they started the form or not.

I would think that the hospital turning in information regarding medication, if the patient smokes (and how much), details about genitals, blood sugar, etc. to the state on a form like this would be extremely illegal ... the more I think about it the more I'm convinced this HAS to be voluntary.

Everyone has offered some great advice about it and pointed out things that I didn't know (like this being a survey, not necessarily public records and the statute of all that is required for a BC)

Very interesting question on the form is whether or not you want your child to have a SS number ... I didn't realize it was an option to not have one? I don't see how you could be "legally" employed in the US without one.

We have an appointment in a week. I'll letchya'll know what happens.

SSN is required for a lot of things, mostly with tracking money. Can't get a 'real' job, receive federal aide, get drafted/selective service, etc. but not required to live. I opted out for my son and will let him decide when he's older if he wants one. Can't claim a dependent without one so you pay an extra $1,000/year by forfeiting the child tax credit. But my son is worth more than a grand a year...

Weston White
05-23-2013, 10:14 AM
This is great primer for homebirthers (entitled: Birthright, by Besty Dewey): http://www.amazon.com/Birthright-Betsy-Dewey/dp/0615513573

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 07:49 AM
Today is the day! We'll be sitting in the health department office in 1.5 hours.

I've read all the laws/requirements pertaining to certificates at http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/2010/title16/ar37/ch2.html and there isn't any mention of a survey, which strongly suggests to me that it is voluntary unless there is a statute, law, requirement, whatever, elsewhere that I'm missing.

My wife says the woman she spoke with on the phone, who we will be meeting with, seemed very nice and pleasant. I don't have any intention of making a scene or being difficult - after reading all the requirements I feel much more confident that we can just say "I'm sorry, we're not really wanting to participate in the survey. We'd just like to file the required info" and he response will be something along the lines of "oh, ok. That's fine."

People have told me they were informed that the survey was mandatory - I'm very curious if we'll be told that same thing or if that was just a misunderstanding that isn't the direct fault of the health department officials.

Seems since we've apparently missed the 'no later than 5 days after birth' requirement we have until our son is 'no more than 4 years old' to file the certificate, we just have to put a reason for the delay in writing. (there doesn't seem to be any criteria for a 'valid' or 'invalid' reason, so if I'm correct any reason would do. If my wife were attended by a physician than the physician would be liable to explain the delay, which would be different.)

kcchiefs6465
05-29-2013, 08:22 AM
What was the last count of people living and working here with no documentation... 20 million?
I can't take a shit without proper documentation. There is no way I'd ever have gotten a job without a SS card and current ID.

I'd be damned that if my ID is expired, that they didn't refuse my business. Even though it shows that I'm above age.

PITA.

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 08:24 AM
last minute thought - I didn't read anything about fees or requirements for certain people to be present when filing for the certificate but we were told there would be a $50 fee, both parents need to be present along with the child getting the certificate.

I'm not going to challenge that - it just makes me wonder if there are requirements that I haven't found yet that might change things a bit. Perhaps a more local, county level, statute?
Don't have the time to look though.

ClydeCoulter
05-29-2013, 08:27 AM
last minute thought - I didn't read anything about fees or requirements for certain people to be present when filing for the certificate but we were told there would be a $50 fee, both parents need to be present along with the child getting the certificate.

I'm not going to challenge that - it just makes me wonder if there are requirements that I haven't found yet that might change things a bit. Perhaps a more local, county level, statute?
Don't have the time to look though.

Hope things go well, and without conflict.

erowe1
05-29-2013, 08:36 AM
I don't think it really matters.

But understand that there are some here who will insist that you're not a citizen unless you can prove it with a birth certificate.

Eagles' Wings
05-29-2013, 08:46 AM
Record the birth in a family bible...

http://m.voices.yahoo.com/how-family-bible-affidavit-of-508931.html Great information. People are doing this for marriages as well. We are with you, Fried Chicken. May God's cherubs (warriors) surround you and your family.

Debbie Downer
05-29-2013, 08:48 AM
I don't think it really matters.

But understand that there are some here who will insist that you're not a citizen unless you can prove it with a birth certificate.

I don't think you even qualify as fully human without a government issued birth certificate, and even then you're still an untermensch until you get two pieces of government issued biometric ID.

heavenlyboy34
05-29-2013, 09:53 AM
I can't take a shit without proper documentation. There is no way I'd ever have gotten a job without a SS card and current ID.

I'd be damned that if my ID is expired, that they didn't refuse my business. Even though it shows that I'm above age.

PITA.
I've done it. But perhaps it works differently in other states...and I knew my boss personally before I applied. /shrugs

The Bavarian
05-29-2013, 09:57 AM
The first page of the form started out fine and then it just turned into asking some serious personal questions, I would fight it too!


Good luck!

kcchiefs6465
05-29-2013, 10:33 AM
I've done it. But perhaps it works differently in other states...and I knew my boss personally before I applied. /shrugs
If it was under the table, sure.

Arizona is exceptionally nazi-esque when it comes to papers.

I do like that the IDs do not expire though. AFAIK, anyways. They don't like my ID no matter which state I go. I've argued with quite a few clerks about it. One stated that you only have to get a new ID in Arizona when you turn from 17 to 18, and when you turn from 20 to 21. I don't know if that is the case but it annoys the hell out of me to be carded, shown to be of age, and refused sale... randomly.

I have reason to believe it is all federalized now anyways seeing that my Arizona ID acts up in other states when they slide it. They are usually more friendly in letting me slide. Many places have refused my business because the machine did not like my ID. (probably because I never got a new one when I turned 21)

mczerone
05-29-2013, 11:49 AM
I had the same issue:

I filled out the specific info part (mom's name, county, dad's name, etc.) and left the last "survey" part blank. I handed it to the hospital employee in charge of submitting it, and said that I didn't want to fill out the bottom. They took it without issue and I got the regular birth cert. from the county a few weeks later.

Just refuse, and see what they actually do. If they make it a huge issue, then either continue to refuse or give in depending on the threats made against you.

One Man Wolf Pack
05-29-2013, 11:57 AM
Just put in what you're okay with and then just make up the rest! Play the game by your rules, not theirs!

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 12:54 PM
Well I'm back! But without a certificate. lol.

My wife was told that in order to prove our address, the place of Thane's birth, to bring two bills that have our name on them and had a date on them for the same month as his birth.
We brought in some bills that met that criteria but they told us there that the bill had to be for services rendered in April, not just with an April due date (which is what we brought).

So the process couldn't be completed because of that. We did the rest of it though and my wife just has to drop off the "survey" and the bills at a later date.

I asked about the survey and if it was mandatory, she told me it was. I asked why we wouldn't be allowed to opt out of the survey and she said she didn't know why or how everything worked exactly but that the state would not except an incomplete form - she said this same form is done for all births but is normally filled out by the hospital staff.
She was very polite.

I said in a nice of a way as I could (seriously, she was a sweet lady, I didn't want to give her a hard time) that if the information is truly required than there must some law or statute saying that it is that the state could show me. She said she'll give them a call and look at the laws for me. We waited for an hour.

When she came back she said the state assured her that our names are removed from the paperwork before being involved in the survey but that the form must be completed because they use information from the form to create the certificate.
She also brought out the statutes regarding certificates and admitted that the survey is never mentioned in the requirements or laws.

I offered to fill out the survey but leave the questions that weren't required information under the IC 16-37-2-9 blank. She said that was fine with her and she would send it off but didn't expect the state to approve it.

That's where things left off.
My wife and I were told that we needed to get the certificate done within the first month, however my research suggested that we have until he is 4 years old without making the process any more complicated.

So I'm going to contact the state and see if they'll accept an incomplete survey. There is nothing written in Indiana code, laws, or whatever that even mention the survey, or at least the nice lady at the health department and I aren't aware of any.

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 01:00 PM
Just put in what you're okay with and then just make up the rest! Play the game by your rules, not theirs!

I've got 4 years to win this if it doesn't stress out the wife! haha. And I kind of need a win right now, I really want the state to admit they have no right forcing people to participate in surveys other than a simple census (not even, really, a survey). Especially if they haven't even bothered making a code that requires people to.

Basically the state just made a rule out of thin air and is forcing people to comply, they didn't even bother writing the rule down on paper after they made it.

Very small insignificant issue, I know, but I really want this notch on the bedpost. I feel pretty beaten down by other things (the midwife that helped Sara deliver the child is facing criminal charges and prison time) and I'm kinda needing to beat them on this one issue just for morale sake. Its weird, I don't expect anyone to understand that particular aspect of all this.

Debbie Downer
05-29-2013, 02:08 PM
I've done it. But perhaps it works differently in other states...and I knew my boss personally before I applied. /shrugs

Johns usually don't ask for ID before asking you to get in their cars?

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 03:10 PM
HAH!

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 03:23 PM
interesting find:

While I was there today she gave me sheet of paper she said might have some info on it I'm interested in. It is labeled "birth data" from the center for disease control and prevention. (CDC)

It has a lot of statistics on the paper I assume are derived by surveys but the first paragraph is pretty interesting:


In the United States, State laws require birth certificates to be completed for all births, and Federal law mandates national collection and publication of births and other vital statistics data. The National Vital Statistics System, the Federal compilation of this data, is the result of the cooperation between the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and the States to provide access to statistical information from birth certificates.

(quoted just as is written on paper, including sometimes strange capitalization choices)

Is my beef really with federal laws? If that is true then why does this survey seem unique to Indiana?

tommyrp12
05-29-2013, 03:37 PM
I think this article (http://www.dailypaul.com/243745/is-america-still-a-british-colony-and-if-so-have-you-heard-of-the-cestui-que-vie-act-of-1666) is worth mentioning from the daily paul. the way I look at is if they want a survey call me or the child when he can talk . i don't think they need permission from the state to be here.other than that I don't see the purpose it serves besides a contract or trust.

im not going to say what to do but I would give it some consideration before signing anything.

I don't have kids so I have never gone through this first hand ,do you think would they stop you from taking the baby home? perhaps a fine?

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 03:38 PM
Couple of links I've found that are interesting:

The document that I quoted from in my above post: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/births.htm

An even more interesting document that points to this being a federal, not state, issue (compelling evidence that it is a mandatory survey in all states since 2003: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vital_certificate_revisions.htm

A link to what the link above claims to be the national standard form for live births (suggested for states to use, but states can use other forms if they wish. Indiana's seems to have the same questions but isn't the exact same form): http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-ACC.pdf



Hopefully I'm not going down some rabbit trail with all this but it seems that it really is required, by a federal bureaucracy, to fill this stupid thing out.

I don't know where to look for laws - I'll try a bit on google but maybe someone has a better idea? I'd like to see if there is a mandate written requiring states to supply this information. The CDC is claiming their is but I haven't seen or read it.

osan
05-29-2013, 03:38 PM
Ask them to show you a law that compels you to answer.

Line by line

"Do you have written authorization and or proof that I am liable for such information, if you do, please produce it"

If they cannot answer that, say "No thank you, that's my business"

I would not bother with the birth certificate in the first place. Getting it is the initial installation of your child into the system.

Screw that. I am sure some will object, citing all the inconveniences that will follow. If convenience in more important than sovereignty then by all means answer the master's questions, kiss his ring, lick his boot, and have your ease. Doesn't matter a whit to me. I, however, would decline the benefit. I can think of nothing for which I would trade away my autodiathesis (self-determination).

But if you are going to play Theire game, I would make them sweat for every morsel. I would smile and be ever so pleasant as I frustrate them to the point they consider suicide. Want my information? OK, but you're going to pay dearly for it.

I believe that the only real way to steer future generations to actual freedom is to begin by not laying their infant selves in the jaws of the beast. If people declined by the millions it would provide yet another nexus for Themme: back down or escalate. Keep painting them ever more tightly into the corner and inevitably the choice boils down to back down or become overtly violent. At that point I believe they lose no matter what Theye might choose, but at least if they back down they get to live another day and angry mobs will not be roasting their children on spits for the dogs' dinner.

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 03:43 PM
I think this article (http://www.dailypaul.com/243745/is-america-still-a-british-colony-and-if-so-have-you-heard-of-the-cestui-que-vie-act-of-1666) is worth mentioning from the daily paul. the way I look at is if they want a survey call me or the child when he can talk . i don't think they need permission from the state to be here.other than that I don't see the purpose it serves besides a contract or trust.

im not going to say what to do but I would give it some consideration before signing anything.

I don't have kids so I have never gone through this first hand ,do you think would they stop you from taking the baby home? perhaps a fine?

Haven't read your link yet but thank you for posting. I know that they would (or I guess I ought to say "should") do nothing about it for at least 4 years. There isn't a requirement for the child to have a BC till then.
After 4 years I don't really know what will happen - all I know is that after the child turns 4 you no longer apply at your county health department but directly with the state.
I don't know if there are penalties, fines or anything like that. I'm unaware that waiting that long is a violation of anything but can't say for sure.

osan
05-29-2013, 03:49 PM
I'd consult a family attorney that I had confidence in. It would be worth the couple hundred dollars.


Possible waste of time and money. Most attorneys appear to know squat about this sort of thing.

I'd not bother with the official cert. An alternative would be to swear out an affidavit that your child was born on this date, etc. and have it notarized. Home brewed BC and the state can pound salt. I say keep your child unplugged. If as a young quasi-adult he wants to plug in, at least he does so by choice. Until then I would tell the state to keep its mitts off. But that's just contrary me.

osan
05-29-2013, 03:55 PM
Well I'm back! But without a certificate. lol.

My wife was told that in order to prove our address, the place of Thane's birth, to bring two bills that have our name on them and had a date on them for the same month as his birth.
We brought in some bills that met that criteria but they told us there that the bill had to be for services rendered in April, not just with an April due date (which is what we brought).

So the process couldn't be completed because of that. We did the rest of it though and my wife just has to drop off the "survey" and the bills at a later date.

I asked about the survey and if it was mandatory, she told me it was. I asked why we wouldn't be allowed to opt out of the survey and she said she didn't know why or how everything worked exactly but that the state would not except an incomplete form - she said this same form is done for all births but is normally filled out by the hospital staff.
She was very polite.

I said in a nice of a way as I could (seriously, she was a sweet lady, I didn't want to give her a hard time) that if the information is truly required than there must some law or statute saying that it is that the state could show me. She said she'll give them a call and look at the laws for me. We waited for an hour.

When she came back she said the state assured her that our names are removed from the paperwork before being involved in the survey but that the form must be completed because they use information from the form to create the certificate.
She also brought out the statutes regarding certificates and admitted that the survey is never mentioned in the requirements or laws.

I offered to fill out the survey but leave the questions that weren't required information under the IC 16-37-2-9 blank. She said that was fine with her and she would send it off but didn't expect the state to approve it.

That's where things left off.
My wife and I were told that we needed to get the certificate done within the first month, however my research suggested that we have until he is 4 years old without making the process any more complicated.

So I'm going to contact the state and see if they'll accept an incomplete survey. There is nothing written in Indiana code, laws, or whatever that even mention the survey, or at least the nice lady at the health department and I aren't aware of any.

If you're OK with all that, what the hell. I'd have left. Then again, I'd not have gone in the first place.

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 04:02 PM
I would not bother with the birth certificate in the first place. Getting it is the initial installation of your child into the system.

Screw that. I am sure some will object, citing all the inconveniences that will follow. If convenience in more important than sovereignty then by all means answer the master's questions, kiss his ring, lick his boot, and have your ease. Doesn't matter a whit to me. I, however, would decline the benefit. I can think of nothing for which I would trade away my autodiathesis (self-determination).

I'm honestly curious- are you raising a child without a BC?
It doesn't seem to be just convenience at stake. I don't want my kids to be considered an enemy of the state and their rights targeted at every turn. No legal job, no legal driving, etc. to where they would either not be able to participate in every day life or would wind up in prison for "breaking" so many "laws" that would come with participating in life without one.



But if you are going to play Theire game, I would make them sweat for every morsel. I would smile and be ever so pleasant as I frustrate them to the point they consider suicide. Want my information? OK, but you're going to pay dearly for it.

I agree with this and intend to do so. Not to the local lady I spoke to today that has no control over anything but to the ones who actually have some responsibility for all this - I haven't tracked down who that is yet.




I believe that the only real way to steer future generations to actual freedom is to begin by not laying their infant selves in the jaws of the beast. If people declined by the millions it would provide yet another nexus for Themme: back down or escalate. Keep painting them ever more tightly into the corner and inevitably the choice boils down to back down or become overtly violent. At that point I believe they lose no matter what Theye might choose, but at least if they back down they get to live another day and angry mobs will not be roasting their children on spits for the dogs' dinner.

I know actual freedom, or even something close, will probably not even come in my grand children's life time. I hope I'm wrong.
In the meantime I'm not willing to make my kids martyrs in this fight. I plan on steering my future generations through other means, by giving them the knowledge of what real liberty is and teach them how to teach others about it and get involved in the political process to bring society closer.

Its really the best I think I can do. I don't think that by keeping my kid 'undocumented' and possibly ruining his life is going to make America a free nation any sooner than otherwise.
But I think that my kids being "little Ron Pauls" in their politics WOULD hasten the day of freedom [to some extent, hasten meaning just bring about sooner ... not bring about quickly].

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 04:05 PM
If you're OK with all that, what the hell. I'd have left. Then again, I'd not have gone in the first place.

There's a lot of things I'm not ok with that I do anyway. Paying my income taxes, abiding by seat belt laws(actually I'd do that anyway), jump through hoops to sell raw milk and fresh vegetables, etc.

FriedChicken
05-29-2013, 04:09 PM
Couple of links I've found that are interesting:

The document that I quoted from in my above post: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/births.htm

An even more interesting document that points to this being a federal, not state, issue (compelling evidence that it is a mandatory survey in all states since 2003: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vital_certificate_revisions.htm

A link to what the link above claims to be the national standard form for live births (suggested for states to use, but states can use other forms if they wish. Indiana's seems to have the same questions but isn't the exact same form): http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/birth11-03final-ACC.pdf




Hopefully I'm not going down some rabbit trail with all this but it seems that it really is required, by a federal bureaucracy, to fill this stupid thing out.

I don't know where to look for laws - I'll try a bit on google but maybe someone has a better idea? I'd like to see if there is a mandate written requiring states to supply this information. The CDC is claiming their is but I haven't seen or read it.


Just wanted to bump these links to an easier to find place in the thread.