Feds indict father for aborting his child

[tod evans]

Hmmm,

Mothers have the "right" to abort without the fathers consent but when the pages are turned it's literally a federal case.


Son of Florida fertility doctor accused of killing ex-girlfriend's fetus with abortion drug


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/16/florida-man-accused-killing-ex-girlfriend-fetus-with-abortion-drug/?test=latestnews


Federal authorities in Florida say the son of a Tampa-area fertility doctor is accused of tricking his girlfriend into taking an abortion drug to kill her unborn child.
A federal grand jury indicted 28-year-old John Andrew Welden on Tuesday.
Prosecutors say Welden forged the doctor's signature on a prescription for Cytotec, relabeled a pill bottle as "Amoxicillin" and told the woman his father wanted her to take the antibiotic.
The Tampa Bay Times reports incident occurred in March after an ultrasound at Dr. Stephen Ward Welden's office confirmed the pregnancy. The doctor is not accused of a crime.
Weldon's defense attorney characterized the actions as "aberrant" but pointed out his client has no criminal history. A U.S. magistrate denied bail Wednesday. He faces up to life in prison.\
"I was never going to do anything but go full term with it, and he didn't want me to," explained Remee Lee, 26, Welden's now ex-girlfriend, told WPTV.com.

[jkr]

LEAVE IT TO THE "PROFESSIONALS"...

[erowe1]

I call on Obama to pardon this man, and I ask the entire pro-abortion movement to join me.

[Christian Liberty]

I call on Obama to pardon this man, and I ask the entire pro-abortion movement to join me.

You know, on constitutional principle, this is a state issue, but in all honesty, assuming this guy is guilty, I really don't care who ends the lives of people who commit murder, whether associated with government or not. If the Feds do it, its really just a vigilante killing as far as I'm concerrned.

I'm not asking them to pardon him. Of Federal usurptions of power, there are a lot of them that I'm more concerned about than this.

Don't get me wrong, for a pro-choice person, there's some cognitive dissonance here. But I'm not pro-choice.

[jbauer]

I'm prolife, but the case should offer some interesting president for future cases. Can't see how the father could be guilty of anything more then forgery and probably felony assult. If they get him for murder the prolfie crowd should be able to flip it and get women for murder as well.

[fisharmor]

jbauer stumbled on a good point... a federal grand jury indicted him of what, exactly?

[tod evans]

jbauer stumbled on a good point... a federal grand jury indicted him of what, exactly?



He faces up to life in prison.\


I'm going out on a limb here and assuming murder charges are being sought...

[amy31416]

I don't care if you're pro-life/pro-choice or even about the gender disparity--this was wrong, and I'm talking significant jail time wrong. He gave her a drug that permanently changed something in her life and destroyed a potential human being.

If I had to pick another punishment for him--infertility would be it. Of course, maybe he wants that.

[aGameOfThrones]

She wants an abortion=fine!

He wants an abortion=not fine!

.......


INB4 It's her body...

[erowe1]

I don't care if you're pro-life/pro-choice or even about the gender disparity--this was wrong, and I'm talking significant jail time wrong. He gave her a drug that permanently changed something in her life and destroyed a potential human being.

If I had to pick another punishment for him--infertility would be it. Of course, maybe he wants that.

Doesn't saying that this is wrong and warrants significant jail time make you pro-life?

I mean, you don't send a guy to jail for coitus interuptus.

[kcchiefs6465]

I'm going out on a limb here and assuming murder charges are being sought...

John Andrew Welden was indicted Tuesday by a federal grand jury on charges of product tampering and first-degree murder and faces up to life in prison if convicted of the murder charge. He's also the defendant in a lawsuit filed in state court by his ex-girlfriend, 26-year-old Remee Lee.
Yes sir.

[kcchiefs6465]

She was six weeks and five days pregnant.

Precedent indeed. Anyone pro-choice up to arguing against this man's charges?

[Smart3]

I support giving this guy a lengthy sentence.

This is a great example of where libertarianism comes into play in the abortion debate. The woman should have the choice to continue the pregnancy (or not) and the man should have the choice to disown the pregnancy and not pay child support.

I'm a 'survivor' of a similar attempt.

[amy31416]

She was six weeks and five days pregnant.

Precedent indeed. Anyone pro-choice up to arguing against this man's charges?

It's not my viewpoint, but I think it'll be argued that he took her Constitutionally guaranteed "right" away from her.

[amy31416]

I support giving this guy a lengthy sentence.

This is a great example of where libertarianism comes into play in the abortion debate. The woman should have the choice to continue the pregnancy (or not) and the man should have the choice to disown the pregnancy and not pay child support.

I'm a 'survivor' of a similar attempt.

Totally agree with that.

[kcchiefs6465]

I am a little confused at how second trimester or third trimester baby's heads are cracked or spinal cords severed and it is seen as her choice but a baby still well in the first trimester being aborted is murder.

[squarepusher]

Florida allows abortion up to 3rd trimester, so thats about 7 months. So this must have been before, will be interesting to see if this justifies murder charges.

[kcchiefs6465]

It's not my viewpoint, but I think it'll be argued that he took her Constitutionally guaranteed "right" away from her.
His lawyer should be able to work with it. I'd imagine the charges get reduced.

Sure, he was in the wrong, but is it really any more wrong than late term abortion?

What a sick world we live in.

[kcchiefs6465]

Florida allows abortion up to 3rd trimester, so thats about 7 months. So this must have been before, will be interesting to see if this justifies murder charges.
She wasn't even two months along.

[squarepusher]

She wasn't even two months along.

yeah, I'm no lawyer, but I don't see them getting murder or even manslaughter. I think the only crime is towards his girlfriend for slipping her a drug, definitely will be an interesting legal case.

[Smart3]

Florida allows abortion up to 3rd trimester, so thats about 7 months. So this must have been before, will be interesting to see if this justifies murder charges.

Presumably feticide is a crime when it was not voluntary. Such as an intentional miscarriage (pushing the woman down the stairs or in this case slipping her an abortion drug)

[PaulConventionWV]

This is just a case of something we all knew was the case already: if an outside party kills a fetus, it's murder. If a professional does it, it's okay. Dr. Paul has been repeating this point for a long time. If he engaged in malpractice and accidentally killed a fetus, he could be charged with murder. It's a double standard and i'ts been around for a long time simply because many would-be mothers think it's a good way to save them from the responsibility of parenthood.

[aGameOfThrones]

Practicing abortion without a license.

[satchelmcqueen]

women do it all the time without the fathers consent. so whats the difference? not saying its ok to trick someone, but whats the difference other than a lie?

[jmdrake]

Hmmm,

Mothers have the "right" to abort without the fathers consent but when the pages are turned it's literally a federal case.


Son of Florida fertility doctor accused of killing ex-girlfriend's fetus with abortion drug


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/16/florida-man-accused-killing-ex-girlfriend-fetus-with-abortion-drug/?test=latestnews


Federal authorities in Florida say the son of a Tampa-area fertility doctor is accused of tricking his girlfriend into taking an abortion drug to kill her unborn child.
A federal grand jury indicted 28-year-old John Andrew Welden on Tuesday.
Prosecutors say Welden forged the doctor's signature on a prescription for Cytotec, relabeled a pill bottle as "Amoxicillin" and told the woman his father wanted her to take the antibiotic.
The Tampa Bay Times reports incident occurred in March after an ultrasound at Dr. Stephen Ward Welden's office confirmed the pregnancy. The doctor is not accused of a crime.
Weldon's defense attorney characterized the actions as "aberrant" but pointed out his client has no criminal history. A U.S. magistrate denied bail Wednesday. He faces up to life in prison.\
"I was never going to do anything but go full term with it, and he didn't want me to," explained Remee Lee, 26, Welden's now ex-girlfriend, told WPTV.com.

Let me guess. They charged him with harming a fetus?

[tod evans]

I think there's an agenda being pushed by the prosecutor in this case, and if it's argued correctly, and not plead out, there could very well be more "wisdom" handed down from those black robed lifetime appointees in DC

[Christian Liberty]

Here's basically where I'm standing here. There's no ethically consistent argument to charge this guy with murder without charging women who have abortions with murder. That said, that justice is not exercised in most cases doesn't mean I want to deliberately not exercise it in this one.

There is the troubling fact that its Federal. I don't think they have any legal authority to do that from the Federal level. I personally believe, although its hardly a litmus test, that liberty candidates should only support legal prosecution for murder, which includes abortion, at the state level. So I don't think this is, or should be, legal. I view this, fundamentally, as a vigilante killing by the Feds. I don't necessarily have a problem with that...

[angelatc]

Why is this a federal case?

Florida law (at least when I lived there) was such that if the mother wanted to stay pregnant, and something happened that caused that pregnancy to be unnaturally terminated, then murder was the charge.

(A drunk guy drove into a crowd of fisher people, killing an unborn child. The law was changed after they couldn't charge him with murder.)

[Anti Federalist]

Roe v. Wade was decided on the grounds of a unwritten, yet supposedly inherent "right to privacy" to be found in the Fourth Amendment.

Please tell me, in this day and age, how the fuck that can possibly apply anymore?

[Christian Liberty]

@AF- I don't know. I hate to say it, but such a right isn't really written in the constitution. Its a good thing too, since its a positive right. I want freedom from the government spynet. That's actually a negative freedom that actually makes sense.

[Anti Federalist]

@AF- I don't know. I hate to say it, but such a right isn't really written in the constitution. Its a good thing too, since its a positive right. I want freedom from the government spynet. That's actually a negative freedom that actually makes sense.

Should have put "supposedly"...good point.

[jtstellar]

this is where modern day women's equality in self esteem comes from.. by (legally) dragging others down.

see, now we're all equal. say, when's that forced-equal-pay bill coming along? we will all be even more equal by that time. oh wait, hillary getting enough mega crony capitalist donors to put her to the spot? now that is real equality

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

tricking someone into getting their child aborted is wrong no matter what side of the abortion argument you are on

[Origanalist]

I support giving this guy a lengthy sentence.

This is a great example of where libertarianism comes into play in the abortion debate. The woman should have the choice to continue the pregnancy (or not) and the man should have the choice to disown the pregnancy and not pay child support.

I'm a 'survivor' of a similar attempt.

But the man does not have that choice. Saying he should makes no difference.

[Origanalist]

This is just a case of something we all knew was the case already: if an outside party kills a fetus, it's murder. If a professional does it, it's okay. Dr. Paul has been repeating this point for a long time. If he engaged in malpractice and accidentally killed a fetus, he could be charged with murder. It's a double standard and i'ts been around for a long time simply because many would-be mothers think it's a good way to save them from the responsibility of parenthood.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PaulConventionWV again.

[tod evans]

Very little happens in federal court without a reason...

This particular case was filed in Fla. which means it'll go to the 11th circuit court of appeals..

A little bit of research will show a definite political lean in the 11th which would, if granted certiorari, give rise to review current law in a new light..

[Christian Liberty]

tricking someone into getting their child aborted is wrong no matter what side of the abortion argument you are on

While this is true, a pro-choicer cannot consistently call this man a murderer.

[Smart3]

While this is true, a pro-choicer cannot consistently call this man a murderer.

Indeed and that's why I did not.

[erowe1]

tricking someone into getting their child aborted is wrong no matter what side of the abortion argument you are on

But if abortion were only what the pro-abortion crowd pretends it is, then this would only be about as wrong as lying to a girl and saying you've never had a vas ectomy when you really have.

[Yieu]

Roe v. Wade was decided on the grounds of a unwritten, yet supposedly inherent "right to privacy" to be found in the Fourth Amendment.

Please tell me, in this day and age, how the fuck that can possibly apply anymore?

Because one of their goals is population reduction. They do not like us.

[Smart3]

But if abortion were only what the pro-abortion crowd pretends it is, then this would only be about as wrong as lying to a girl and saying you've never had a vas ectomy when you really have.

He intentionally ended the life of her potential child. While not murder, it was not done with her consent. Definitely 20+ years.


Because one of their goals is population reduction. They do not like us.
Guilty as charged. China, India, the island of Java, etc are overpopulated. Ethiopia will expand from 80 million now to 200 million in no time. Anyone who isn't worried about this isn't paying attention.

[erowe1]

He intentionally ended the life of her potential child. While not murder, it was not done with her consent. Definitely 20+ years.

That's harsh for lying and saying you had a vas ectomy when you didn't, preventing your sperm from fertilizing an egg without her consent.

[Origanalist]

He intentionally ended the life of her potential child. While not murder, it was not done with her consent. Definitely 20+ years.


Guilty as charged. China, India, the island of Java, etc are overpopulated. Ethiopia will expand from 80 million now to 200 million in no time. Anyone who isn't worried about this isn't paying attention.

But that only counts when he does that, right? If a woman ended the life of his potential child, tough shit.

[Origanalist]

Ethiopia will expand from 80 million now to 200 million in no time.

Really? I've been hearing these horror stories my whole life........................

[aGameOfThrones]

But that only counts when he does that, right? If a woman ended the life of his potential child, tough shit.

Right. Let's say she tricked him into getting her pregnant by claiming she was on birth control when she really wasn't. He wants an abortion, tough shit. Is she going to get 20+ years for that?

[tod evans]

He intentionally ended the life of their potential child. While not murder, it was not done with her consent. Definitely 20+ years.


Fixed it for you.

Logic fails such as assuming a fetus belongs solely to the mother is where lots of folks get sideways of common sense.

Now that simple biology, two parents, as been established why should the father require the mothers permission to abort their fetus if the mother can abort it without his permission?

Origanalist said the same thing differently so I included his post too just in case my commoner language is beneath one who calls them-self "smart"...


But that only counts when he does that, right? If a woman ended the life of his potential child, tough shit.

[JorgeStevenson]

Wait - I thought he did her a favor? Didn't he just remove a clump of cells that was parasitically feeding off of her body? This man is a hero!

[Ranger29860]

I think the biggest issue here is the fact that he in affect poisoned her without her knowledge or her consent (as in violated her rights). The fact that it was an attempt to abort a baby is a secondary issue here. One that has a lot of different problems associated with it. But they should at least charge this guy with falsification of a prescription and poisoning.

[JCDenton0451]

Exactly. The man drugged her without her consent, and violated the integrity of her body. He deserves some prison time. But if they want to charge him with murder, I expect these charges to be rejected by the court.

[Ranger29860]

Exactly. The man drugged her without her consent, and violated the integrity of her body. He deserves some prison time. But if they want to charge him with murder, I expect these charges to be rejected by the court.

I think they could make a murder charge stick easily. It is already well established legally that women are the controlling factor in abortions (as in you cant force an abortion on a women nor can you prevent one). So by him in effect taking her established right of (her body, her choice) away from her then he is committing murder since the only one legally at this point able to make that decision is the mother. Now that would open up the question of if its called murder when he does it why is it not when a women does it, this is a morality issue not a legal one since legally this has been established.

[Origanalist]

I think they could make a murder charge stick easily. It is already well established legally that women are the controlling factor in abortions (as in you cant force an abortion on a women nor can you prevent one). So by him in effect taking her established right of (her body, her choice) away from her then he is committing murder since the only one legally at this point able to make that decision is the mother. Now that would open up the question of if its called murder when he does it why is it not when a women does it, this is a morality issue not a legal one since legally this has been established.

Love that whole legal-moral distinction.

[JCDenton0451]

It's not murder, because the woman is still alive. Bodily harm at worst.

[Eagles' Wings]

May be opening a can of worms here.

I think about when the Father created Adam and then Eve, as Adam's helper. Then came the taking of the apple. Adam partook, knowing that God had given him the task of caring for Eve. Adam obviously should have declined, thus protecting Eve.

Perhaps if men would guard and protect women, never having sex unless they are married and welcoming of children. This is surely the ideal. This ideal is lived out by millions.

[Origanalist]

May be opening a can of worms here.

I think about when the Father created Adam and then Eve, as Adam's helper. Then came the taking of the apple. Adam partook, knowing that God had given him the task of caring for Eve. Adam obviously should have declined, thus protecting Eve.

Perhaps if men would guard and protect women, never having sex unless they are married and welcoming of children. This is surely the ideal. This ideal is lived out by millions.

Blasphemy!

[cajuncocoa]

The whole man vs. woman argument with regard to abortion, child-rearing, etc. is never going to be made fair or equal because it's the woman who has to carry the baby to term and deliver. (Men can decide to be good fathers, or they can decide to be sperm donors).

Thanks to Ron Paul, I've changed my mind on the issue of abortion and I am now 100% pro-life. BUT, in this case, even if there was no pregnancy involved, I would say this young man is guilty of at least tricking his girlfriend into taking medication under false pretenses. That could have been harmful in so many ways, even if a fetus was not involved.

[Origanalist]

The whole man vs. woman argument with regard to abortion, child-rearing, etc. is never going to be made fair or equal because it's the woman who has to carry the baby to term and deliver. (Men can decide to be good fathers, or they can decide to be sperm donors).

Thanks to Ron Paul, I've changed my mind on the issue of abortion and I am now 100% pro-life. BUT, in this case, even if there was no pregnancy involved, I would say this young man is guilty of at least tricking his girlfriend into taking medication under false pretenses. That could have been harmful in so many ways, even if a fetus was not involved.

Is Cytotec dangerous to the mother?

[Eagles' Wings]

The whole man vs. woman argument with regard to abortion, child-rearing, etc. is never going to be made fair or equal because it's the woman who has to carry the baby to term and deliver. (Men can decide to be good fathers, or they can decide to be sperm donors).

Thanks to Ron Paul, I've changed my mind on the issue of abortion and I am now 100% pro-life. BUT, in this case, even if there was no pregnancy involved, I would say this young man is guilty of at least tricking his girlfriend into taking medication under false pretenses. That could have been harmful in so many ways, even if a fetus was not involved.Men can decide not to have sex. Women can decide not to have sex. That is equal and fair. Let's give ourselves some credit for being strong and determined. Our greatest gift to our children is to raise them believing that sex is powerful and that they have dominion over it.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I'm fucking sick of this shit where the woman and the law gets to decide whether a fetus is a lowly nutrient-sucking parasite or a child. This is why abortion should just be illegal, PERIOD. If you accidentally shove a pregnant women and she has a miscarriage, you can be charged with murdering the child. If she wants to get it aborted, no one gets charged with murder.

[cajuncocoa]

Is Cytotec dangerous to the mother?
That's not the point...and for some women, it might be. The point is, it's wrong to give another person medication under false pretenses. (Not saying he should be charged with murder; that would make for a double-standard on the abortion issue).

[cajuncocoa]

Men can decide not to have sex. Women can decide not to have sex. That is equal and fair. Let's give ourselves some credit for being strong and determined. Our greatest gift to our children is to raise them believing that sex is powerful and that they have dominion over it.
No disagreement there!

[Eagles' Wings]

I'm fucking sick of this shit where the woman and the law gets to decide whether a fetus is a lowly nutrient-sucking parasite or a child. This is why abortion should just be illegal, PERIOD. If you accidentally shove a pregnant women and she has a miscarriage, you can be charged with murdering the child. If she wants to get it aborted, no one gets charged with murder.This makes so much sense.

And, ultimately for a believer in Christian Scripture, the killing of any innocent has dire consequences. However, we also know that through Messiah, we have atonement for sin, and anyone can come to Him to repent and receive forgiveness, even/especially for ending their child's life through abortion.

[Origanalist]

That's not the point...and for some women, it might be. The point is, it's wrong to give another person medication under false pretenses. (Not saying he should be charged with murder; that would make for a double-standard on the abortion issue).

Absolutely it's wrong.

[TruckinMike]

yeah, I'm no lawyer, but I don't see them getting murder or even manslaughter. I think the only crime is towards his girlfriend for slipping her a drug, definitely will be an interesting legal case. What if it was the government that slipped her the drug?

[Eagles' Wings]

What if it was the government that slipped her the drug?RU486 (Are you for death?)

Available at federally funded Planned Parenthood. The government "slips" women this drug.

[tod evans]

Regardless of the morality of abortion or even drugging another person, the guy in the newz article was charged with murder..

Obviously the mother is alive so he's been charged with murdering the fetus..

Like I said earlier I believe there's more at play here than the death of a fetus, Florida was chosen as the venue for the legal circus..

We'll see in a couple of years where this all end up...

[TruckinMike]

RU486 (Are you for death?) I'm not sure what you mean by that. To be clear, I'm pro-life and anti-death penalty --->except for government employees and/or contractors.

Square Pusher seemed to be insinuating that there was no crime except for the drugging of the girl. I hold a differing opinion. To clarify ones thinking on the issue I posed the question "What if it was the government that slipped her the drug?" in an attempt to spur the mind away from personal prejudices when concerning abortion.

Imagine the Obama regime slipping RU486 into the drinks of Pregnant Ron Paul supporters. .... Would we be thinking differently? -->Excluding drugging someone without their knowledge, would that equate with the tea Party IRS scandal or would it be worse?

[Eagles' Wings]

Regardless of the morality of abortion or even drugging another person, the guy in the newz article was charged with murder..

Obviously the mother is alive so he's been charged with murdering the fetus..

Like I said earlier I believe there's more at play here than the death of a fetus, Florida was chosen as the venue for the legal circus..

We'll see in a couple of years where this all end up...Tod, I hold deeply that a man must pay a higher penalty because he has the greater (God-given) burden of protecting women and children. Regardless of what happens in our material world, there are greater happenings in the spiritual world and men and women will give an account for their sins. Sin is no respecter of gender. Sin wants each and every one of us. God wants us more.

[Eagles' Wings]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. To be clear, I'm pro-life and anti-death penalty --->except for government employees and/or contractors.

Square Pusher seemed to be insinuating that there was no crime except for the drugging of the girl. I hold a differing opinion. To clarify ones thinking on the issue I posed the question "What if it was the government that slipped her the drug?" in an attempt to spur the mind away from personal prejudices when concerning abortion.

Imagine the Obama regime slipping RU486 into the drinks of Pregnant Ron Paul supporters. .... Would we be thinking differently? -->Excluding drugging someone without their knowledge, would that equate with the tea Party IRS scandal or would it be worse?Yes, we agree on all points, Truckin'. You bring up an important question.

[tod evans]

Louise,

I don't disagree with the responsibilities of man as he stands for final judgement, however I vehemently disagree with murder charges only being levied against a father who aborts his fetus when the law permits the mother to abort the same fetus..

In my mind there's severe disparity in the law as it stands and it looks to me as if this particular case may have the foundation to challenge R-v-W, maybe not in it's entirety but definitely the merits..

I'm sure more acute minds than mine have plotted a course long before charges were levied...

[Eagles' Wings]

Louise,

I don't disagree with the responsibilities of man as he stands for final judgement, however I vehemently disagree with murder charges only being levied against a father who aborts his fetus when the law permits the mother to abort the same fetus..

In my mind there's severe disparity in the law as it stands and it looks to me as if this particular case may have the foundation to challenge R-v-W, maybe not in it's entirety but definitely the merits..

I'm sure more acute minds than mine have plotted a course long before charges were levied...You are a wise man, Tod. You continue to bring up the man's role in abortion and that is vital - at the very core of this truly.

[asurfaholic]

May be opening a can of worms here.

I think about when the Father created Adam and then Eve, as Adam's helper. Then came the taking of the apple. Adam partook, knowing that God had given him the task of caring for Eve. Adam obviously should have declined, thus protecting Eve.

Perhaps if men would guard and protect women, never having sex unless they are married and welcoming of children. This is surely the ideal. This ideal is lived out by millions.

That's me and my wife. It's the best way to guarantee a healthy marriage.

On the topic at hand- I've wondered when this case would happen, and I am not surprised by anything in the article.

Gotta throw this in there for you pro death people out there.... What if the man gets his girl pregnant, and he wants the child to live (god forbid). Why is it ok that the woman gets full say in the abortion decision? Biologically the baby is his offspring too. How do you ignore that?

[Eagles' Wings]

That's me and my wife. It's the best way to guarantee a healthy marriage.

On the topic at hand- I've wondered when this case would happen, and I am not surprised by anything in the article.

Gotta throw this in there for you pro death people out there.... What if the man gets his girl pregnant, and he wants the child to live (god forbid). Why is it ok that the woman gets full say in the abortion decision? Biologically the baby is his offspring too. How do you ignore that?Beautiful. Let our men rise up and take custody of their unborn and born. I would support an uprising of strong men protecting women.

[Smart3]

Right. Let's say she tricked him into getting her pregnant by claiming she was on birth control when she really wasn't. He wants an abortion, tough shit. Is she going to get 20+ years for that?

It's his fault for not using a condom. Moreover, it's his fault for sleeping with such an evil woman to begin with.


Fixed it for you.

Logic fails such as assuming a fetus belongs solely to the mother is where lots of folks get sideways of common sense.

Now that simple biology, two parents, as been established why should the father require the mothers permission to abort their fetus if the mother can abort it without his permission?

That's where the problem is. They are not parents. The man at this point is nothing more than a sperm donor. The fetus is part of the woman's body.


May be opening a can of worms here.

I think about when the Father created Adam and then Eve, as Adam's helper. Then came the taking of the apple. Adam partook, knowing that God had given him the task of caring for Eve. Adam obviously should have declined, thus protecting Eve.

Perhaps if men would guard and protect women, never having sex unless they are married and welcoming of children. This is surely the ideal. This ideal is lived out by millions.

For some strange reason, there's this delusion that either Adam or Chavah were responsible for that act. In truth, Chavah was tempted by the Seraph in the presence of Adam. Adam then also partook of the fruit. They were both equally responsible and were both kicked out of Gan Eden at the same time. (if Eve had disobeyed, she would have been kicked out before ever reaching Adam, and God would have given Adam a third wife)

[tod evans]

That's where the problem is. They are not parents. The man at this point is nothing more than a sperm donor. The fetus is part of the woman's body.


Oh really?

Remember the logic fail?

At what point does this "part of the woman's body" magically turn into a fetus? Or child, or even human?

And what exactly differentiates father from "sperm donor"? Does this magic differentiation take place when the "part of the woman's body" turns into a fetus or sooner or later?

When is it that "they" become parents? Does this happen at the same time or does it depend on gender or geography or something else?

Unless you can do a substantially better job arguing your point I'm afraid I can't concede that this guy charged with murder wasn't actually the babies father..

[aGameOfThrones]

It's his fault for not using a condom. Moreover, it's his fault for sleeping with such an evil woman to begin with.


20+ years for him for tricking her into an abortion.

No 20+ years for her for tricking him into a pregnancy.

His fault he didn't wear a condom.

Not her fault she didn't check what she was taking.

[Ranger29860]

20+ years for him for tricking her into an abortion.

No 20+ years for her for tricking him into a pregnancy.


Yeah because that is totally what happened here :rolleyes:

[aGameOfThrones]

Yeah because that is totally what happened here :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: post 41, 43, 45.

[Uriah]

I'm prolife, but the case should offer some interesting president for future cases. Can't see how the father could be guilty of anything more then forgery and probably felony assult. If they get him for murder the prolfie crowd should be able to flip it and get women for murder as well.

precedent*