FREE Schiff

[Warlord]

Holder just said there are 135 prisoners over the age of 80 and 35 over the age of 85.

One of these is Schiff's dad Irwin.

Of course the authoritarian tool deflected the question and said he's setup a working group to look into the matter of elderly prisoners and compassionate release which will report back at some unspecified later date.

[sailingaway]

he just wants them put on medicaid and medicare and off the health budget for the Justice Department, now they are old.

All the same, fewer people locked up seems better.

[Sonny Tufts]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

[Warlord]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

The scam is the tax!

Let's say if Schiff did actually break the law, who exactly is harmed and why is he locked up?

[ZENemy]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

RETSQUID? lol

[Sonny Tufts]

Let's say if Schiff did actually break the law, who exactly is harmed and why is he locked up?

He is currently doing time after having been convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States, five counts of aiding and assisting in the filing of false federal income tax returns (i.e., the “zero returns” he prepared for his clients), attempting to evade and defeat the payment of tax, and six counts of filing false federal income tax returns.

He peddled bogus tax scams to people who ended up liable for back taxes, penalties, and interest. See http://tpgurus.wikidot.com/irwin-schiff

[Christian Liberty]

I see nothing morally wrong with failure to pay income taxes.

[ZENemy]

I see nothing morally wrong with failure to pay income taxes.

BUT THE ROAAAAAAAAAAAADS!!!!!??



:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Warlord]

He is currently doing time after having been convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States, five counts of aiding and assisting in the filing of false federal income tax returns (i.e., the “zero returns” he prepared for his clients), attempting to evade and defeat the payment of tax, and six counts of filing false federal income tax returns.

He peddled bogus tax scams to people who ended up liable for back taxes, penalties, and interest. See http://tpgurus.wikidot.com/irwin-schiff

WOW! The United States! He Defrauded them!

Crime of the century! Lock him up and throw away the key right?

[Warlord]

He is currently doing time after having been convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States, five counts of aiding and assisting in the filing of false federal income tax returns (i.e., the “zero returns” he prepared for his clients), attempting to evade and defeat the payment of tax, and six counts of filing false federal income tax returns.

He peddled bogus tax scams to people who ended up liable for back taxes, penalties, and interest. See http://tpgurus.wikidot.com/irwin-schiff

What about Bernanke's conspiracy to defraud the American people by diluting the value of the dollar.

Should he be in prison with Schiff and if not why not?

[ZENemy]

What about Bernanke's conspiracy to defraud the American people by diluting the value of the dollar.

Should he be in prison with Schiff and if not why not?


Yes but Schiffs actions may cause a 400 pound welfare recipient to go hungry, and how will she get to walmart with no ROADS???? OMG ROADS

[Warlord]

Cohen is hitting Holder on marijuana prohibition and Federal prisoners.

[Warlord]

And crack/cocaine commutations, pardons etc. That was pretty good for a Dem.

[Feelgood]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

You really are a clueless idiot.

[ronaldo23]

The scam is the tax!

Let's say if Schiff did actually break the law, who exactly is harmed and why is he locked up?

sure, but that's true of a large percentage of people in jail who commit non-violent crimes. Change the laws, but there is really no reason Schiff deserves special treatment to be released compared with the other people who also shouldn't be in jail

[HOLLYWOOD]

Hank Johnson D-GA whata a tool, he's attacking the press(AP) for disclosure and proven fact that wealthy special interest can put anyone in office.

Moron just apologized for IG Holder and the Justice Department

All the loss of Freedom is due to the Central Bankers Act of 1913. Class Warfare, Slavery, & Oppression are the direct result. We have experienced today how the oppression is inflicted by the Federal government.

Here's the Tax Rates and remember, that's in 1913 dollars, with equates to your first few $100,000s tax free. How's that turn out for everyone today? Who's paying the highest percentages, who's paying the least percentages, who is given the write-offs to effectively lower your tax rates the most? We all understand the corporate welfare for campaign donations that reciprocate into lower effective tax rates paid.

It's a system based on; bribery, corruption, racketeering, and fraud. This class/slavery warfare, has declared by the Central Bankers/Government and it's on the middle/poorer classes. Look at the chart how government has now discriminated between groups. Everyone paid the same rate, regardless of personal family status.
http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee332/McLieberman/IncomeTAX-1913.png

[Warlord]

sure, but that's true of a large percentage of people in jail who commit non-violent crimes. Change the laws, but there is really no reason Schiff deserves special treatment to be released compared with the other people who also shouldn't be in jail

And if they're putting Schiff in jail they should put Bernanke and the whole Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve in prison for fraud

[PaulConventionWV]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

Anyone who offers ways to get out of taxation should be commended, IMO. You should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that someone who committed a victimless crime against the state deserves to be locked up for life.

[PaulConventionWV]

sure, but that's true of a large percentage of people in jail who commit non-violent crimes. Change the laws, but there is really no reason Schiff deserves special treatment to be released compared with the other people who also shouldn't be in jail

I don't see it as special treatment. Anyone who can be freed who doesn't deserve to be in jail, should be, whether it's their status that earns them that, or something else. It's a good thing to free people who don't deserve to be in prison if only to serve as an example that income tax evaders shouldn't be imprisoned. Everyone who was put in there for tax evasion is being made an example of. Most of those people are of some note. One other person I can think of that's serving time for tax evasion is Kent Hovind. The IRS doesn't go after small-time tax evaders. It goes after the big ones that tell the truth to the masses and actively get people to join the cause. It's an effective, dirty trick.

[Athan]

BUT THE ROAAAAAAAAAAAADS!!!!!??



:D:D:D:D:D:D

lol

[HOLLYWOOD]

Hank Johnson: AP Associated Press - Could Be Prosecuted Under 'Espionage' Act

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/05/15/Dem-Rep-Hank-Johnson-Calls-For-Prosecution-Of-Associated-Press

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee332/McLieberman/HANK_zps23b8bf44.png

[Sonny Tufts]

Anyone who offers ways to get out of taxation should be commended, IMO. You should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that someone who committed a victimless crime against the state deserves to be locked up for life.

Offering legal ways to avoid tax is highly commendable. Peddling illegal ways is not, and that's what Schiff did.

If you think what he did was a victimless crime, ask some of the suckers who bought into his scam and ended up having to pay penalties and interest on their back taxes.

[talkingpointes]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

Con artist.... LOL - That by philosophical proxy would make Ron Paul and many other anti-tax folks scammers.

People that steal at the barrel of a gun = good
Someone that never hurt anyone and now gets a cage for 30 years = let them rot

Care to hand down some more of that bomb ass insight?

[Sonny Tufts]

Con artist.... LOL - That by philosophical proxy would make Ron Paul and many other anti-tax folks scammers.

People that steal at the barrel of a gun = good
Someone that never hurt anyone and now gets a cage for 30 years = let them rot

Care to hand down some more of that bomb ass insight?

When Ron Paul starts filing false tax returns and selling ways to cheat on your taxes, let me know.

[majinkoola]

Offering legal ways to avoid tax is highly commendable. Peddling illegal ways is not, and that's what Schiff did.

If you think what he did was a victimless crime, ask some of the suckers who bought into his scam and ended up having to pay penalties and interest on their back taxes.

He believed they were legal ways. It's not like he peddled those things and didn't take any risk himself.

Even if he thought they were illegal, so what? Something being illegal doesn't mean it's wrong. Let's say I funneled weapons to black people during the Revolution (most in the military were not allowed to carry weapons). And let's say they became a victim because of it. Doesn't mean that what I did was wrong, just against an unjust law.

[jclay2]

The schiff's make me nervous as everything they advertise is based around $s for themselves.

[PaulConventionWV]

Offering legal ways to avoid tax is highly commendable. Peddling illegal ways is not, and that's what Schiff did.

If you think what he did was a victimless crime, ask some of the suckers who bought into his scam and ended up having to pay penalties and interest on their back taxes.

Why does it matter whether it's legal or not? Do you believe that the tax is immoral regardless of the law? Or do you believe that the law determines what is moral and immoral?

[Weston White]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

You are an absolute moron. Take your guff with you back to your crummy Quat-becilic Website.

[Weston White]

The scam is the tax!

Let's say if Schiff did actually break the law, who exactly is harmed and why is he locked up?

So very this!

[Weston White]

Offering legal ways to avoid tax is highly commendable. Peddling illegal ways is not, and that's what Schiff did.

If you think what he did was a victimless crime, ask some of the suckers who bought into his scam and ended up having to pay penalties and interest on their back taxes.

It was not Schiff’s “scam” that caused any one individual to end up serving prison time or paying penalties, rather it was the corrupted system itself. Mr. Schiff is only representative a common misunderstanding on the matter of federal income taxes—largely due to its (perceived) complex nature. Simply, it was wrong for him to have been punished so fiercely for being on the right train, yet heading down the wrong railroad track.

Though I believe most of his punishment was actually attributed to his off-shoring practices, being that he had attempted to hide a couple million dollars from his business profits away.

In its presently applied state the federal income tax is really only about two things: (1) feeding the Federal Reserve System’s monkey—i.e., the U.S. Treasury through its trained seal the IRS—and (2) maintaining crushing absolutism over both the plebeians and any elitists that test or question the status quo.

[Warlord]

Irwin Schiff never hid anything - he just believed he didn't have to report his income on a return to the IRS.

He refused to do this and told them exactly why.

The Feds prosecuted him for failing to file and for evasion. They refused to hear most of his defense and convicted him and threw him in jail.

[Warlord]

Offering legal ways to avoid tax is highly commendable. Peddling illegal ways is not, and that's what Schiff did.

If you think what he did was a victimless crime, ask some of the suckers who bought into his scam and ended up having to pay penalties and interest on their back taxes.

It's only because the authorities say it's a scam. The judge refused to hear most of Schiff's defense from what I understand.

Bernanke is running a far bigger scam, why isnt he in jail?

The fact that you celebrate the incarceration of an elderly tax protestor is quite frankly stunning.

[DamianTV]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

Tax itself is a scam.

[anaconda]

Schiff is a thrice-convicted con artist who peddled bogus tax scams. I don't see how he deserves compassion.

There is no law that compels U.S. citizens to pay tax on their wages.

[anaconda]

Irwin Schiff never hid anything - he just believed he didn't have to report his income on a return to the IRS.

He refused to do this and told them exactly why.

The Feds prosecuted him for failing to file and for evasion. They refused to hear most of his defense and convicted him and threw him in jail.

Was it his case where the judge proclaimed "I will not allow the law in my courtroom?"

[Weston White]

Was it his case where the judge proclaimed "I will not allow the law in my courtroom?"

United States of America v. Irwin Schiff (Thursday, October 06, 2005)

Prosecutor: "Objection! Irrelevant!"

Judge Dawson: "Sustained!"

Irwin Schiff: "The income tax law is irrelevant?"

Judge Dawson: "I will not allow the law in my courtroom!"

Irwin Schiff: "But the Supreme Court said in the Cheek decision . . ."

Judge Dawson: "Irrevelant! Denied!"

Irwin Schiff: "The Supreme Court is irrelevant?"

Judge Dawson: "Irrevelant! Denied!"

[Sonny Tufts]

There is no law that compels U.S. citizens to pay tax on their wages.

It's stupidity like this that allowed Schiff to peddle his snake oil.

[Sonny Tufts]

You are an absolute moron. Take your guff with you back to your crummy Quat-becilic Website.

Mr. White, you have amply demonstrated that when it comes to tax law, you haven't the intelligence of a potted plant. This will be my last response to you, because I do not wish to reinforce your deluded belief that your views on taxation matter.

[Warlord]

It's stupidity like this that allowed Schiff to peddle his snake oil.

Irwin Schiff is a patriot and a tax protestor.

[Sonny Tufts]

Irwin Schiff is a patriot and a tax protestor.

Just goes to show Samuel Johnson was right -- patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

[Warlord]

Just goes to show Samuel Johnson was right -- patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Irwin is old and infirm. He must be released on compassionate grounds. You're a truly despicable individual if you want to see people locked up for refusing to pay the income tax.

If the State wants to punish such people give him a civil penalty not a Federal prison cell FFS.

You truly sicken me.

[talkingpointes]

Just goes to show Samuel Johnson was right -- patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Wow, so your just going to be rude and use a call to authority with a subpar qoute to make a point you otherwise can't. I must ask - why are you here? I know we'll allow it - but isn't it torture being the smartest person out of like 20k users ? Give yourself a hand sir.

[Sonny Tufts]

Irwin is old and infirm. He must be released on compassionate grounds. You're a truly despicable individual if you want to see people locked up for refusing to pay the income tax.

If you had read my previous posts, you would have learned that he isn't incarcerated only for not paying his own income taxes; in addition, he sold phony tax evasion advice to others and assisted them in filing false returns. It's also significant that this is his third conviction.

[talkingpointes]

Why do I get the feeling sonny tufts is a sock poppet ? And my first guess would be -- zippy juan . Same speech patterns when looking through his history.

[Warlord]

If you had read my previous posts, you would have learned that he isn't incarcerated only for not paying his own income taxes; in addition, he sold phony tax evasion advice to others and assisted them in filing false returns. It's also significant that this is his third conviction.

Then give him a civil penalty and let the civil judge look at it not throw him in JAIL FFS.

[TheTexan]

He is currently doing time after having been convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States, five counts of aiding and assisting in the filing of false federal income tax returns (i.e., the “zero returns” he prepared for his clients), attempting to evade and defeat the payment of tax, and six counts of filing false federal income tax returns.

He peddled bogus tax scams to people who ended up liable for back taxes, penalties, and interest. See http://tpgurus.wikidot.com/irwin-schiff

Sounds more like a hero than a criminal. Notice he was convicted of defrauding the US, not his clients.

[The Northbreather]

Irwin is old and infirm. He must be released on compassionate grounds. You're a truly despicable individual if you want to see people locked up for refusing to pay the income tax.

If the State wants to punish such people give him a civil penalty not a Federal prison cell FFS.

You truly sicken me.

Some people simply love to be ruled.

They enjoy the sting of the whip and are quite thankful for the attention.

Mmm boot rubber and shit.....yum

[anaconda]

It's stupidity like this that allowed Schiff to peddle his snake oil.

Please show me the law.

[Weston White]

Mr. White, you have amply demonstrated that when it comes to tax law, you haven't the intelligence of a potted plant. This will be my last response to you, because I do not wish to reinforce your deluded belief that your views on taxation matter.

Well regardless of whatever you publicly exclaim, the fact remains that my views on taxation and tax related law, matter just enough to cause you to Internet stalk me, for at least the last 2-3 years now. But your reply is very, very, extremely telling—as to your weakened mentality—so thank you for that. So they say: defeat is a bitter pill to swallow. Gulp!

[Weston White]

Just goes to show Samuel Johnson was right -- patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Oh great, now you’re running off to a Tory for quotations!

See, you are so utterly dishonest in all you do! In reality however, he was actually contemplating a distinction between false patriotism and true patriotism (or patriots) as opposed to rebellion—namely, through the use of governmental positions to sound false alarms, fear-monger, gratify one's malice, etc., ( “The Patriot”, 1774): “ A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest. . . . He that wishes to see his country robbed of its rights cannot be a patriot.”

So, I suppose you also agree with his contention: “That man, therefore, is no patriot, who justifies the ridiculous claims of American usurpation; who endeavours to deprive the nation of its natural and lawful authority over its own colonies; those colonies, which were settled under English protection; were constituted by an English charter; and have been defended by English arms.”

Yet however (within Samuel Johnson’s “Taxation No Tyranny”, 1775): “ But there is one writer, and, perhaps, many who do not write, to whom the contraction of these pernicious privileges appears very dangerous, and who startle at the thoughts of ‘England free, and America in chains.’ Children fly from their own shadow, and rhetoricians are frighted by their own voices. Chains is, undoubtedly, a dreadful word; but, perhaps, the masters of civil wisdom may discover some gradations between chains and anarchy. Chains need not be put upon those who will be restrained without them. This contest may end in the softer phrase of English superiority and American obedience. . . . But let us interrupt awhile this dream of conquest, settlement, and supremacy. Let us remember, that being to contend, according to one orator, with three millions of whigs, and, according to another, with ninety thousand patriots of Massachusett's bay, we may possibly be checked in our career of reduction. We may be reduced to peace upon equal terms, or driven from the western continent, and forbidden to violate, a second time, the happy borders of the land of liberty. The time is now, perhaps, at hand, which sir Thomas Browne predicted, between jest and earnest:

‘When America should no more send out her treasure, But spend it at home in American pleasure.’”

[Weston White]

Please show me the law.

Sorry he cannot. Only could he ever quote for you a portion of Section 61 within the IRC and then take about six U.S. Supreme Court cases entirely out of context (omitting sentences that do not agree with his point of view and misconception on federally enumerated powers en masse), and then go on to quote paragraph after paragraph of hundreds upon hundreds of lower court and tax court cases (most all of which are either advisory upon the courts or are otherwise inadmissible as evidence).

[Weston White]

It's stupidity like this that allowed Schiff to peddle his snake oil.

Since when did Mr. Schiff get into the medical cure-all business? I thought he wrote books on the topic in which he professionally worked, which dealt only with corruption in government and taxation?

[anaconda]

Sorry he cannot. Only could he ever quote for you a portion of Section 61 within the IRC and then take about six U.S. Supreme Court cases entirely out of context (omitting sentences that do not agree with his point of view and misconception on federally enumerated powers en masse), and then go on to quote paragraph after paragraph of hundreds upon hundreds of lower court and tax court cases (most all of which are either advisory upon the courts or are otherwise inadmissible as evidence).

Weston White: I've only ONE THING to say to you: You da' Man!

[Weston White]

Weston White: I've only ONE THING to say to you: You da' Man!

Gracias.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkVnZsOgJA

[ZENemy]

Sorry he cannot. Only could he ever quote for you a portion of Section 61 within the IRC and then take about six U.S. Supreme Court cases entirely out of context (omitting sentences that do not agree with his point of view and misconception on federally enumerated powers en masse), and then go on to quote paragraph after paragraph of hundreds upon hundreds of lower court and tax court cases (most all of which are either advisory upon the courts or are otherwise inadmissible as evidence).

A guy named "retsquid" on youtube, has the exact same argument style and gets caught doing the EXACT same omissions.

HMMMM

[Sonny Tufts]

The law:

Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code imposes the tax on the taxable income of individuals, estates, and trusts.
Section 63 defines taxable income as gross income minus allowable deductions.
Section 61 defines gross income as all income that isn't specifically excluded elsewhere in the Code.
Section 6012 says that if you have gross income above a certain amount, you must file a return.
Section 6151 says that if you have to file a return, you must pay the tax.

[Warlord]

Those aren't laws passed by congress are they?

[Sonny Tufts]

Those aren't laws passed by congress are they?

Of course they are.

[Warlord]

Of course they are.

What's the specific name of the Act codifying it?

[Sonny Tufts]

What's the specific name of the Act codifying it?

It hasn't been, but unless you can find a discrepancy between the Code and the Statutes at Large, it's irrelevant. Please see http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#law
for more information.

[Warlord]

It hasn't been, but unless you can find a discrepancy between the Code and the Statutes at Large, it's irrelevant. Please see http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#law
for more information.

Congress has not passed an Act (or Bill) so you lose.

[Sonny Tufts]

Congress has not passed an Act (or Bill) so you lose. "Code" is not law.

Did you bother to read the material at the link and discover just how unbelievably frivolous your argument is? The Internal Revenue Code of 1954 was enacted by Congress on August 16, 1954. The present Code (a/k/a/ Title 26 of the United States Code) is a compilation that accurately reflects the 1954 law and all of the amendments to it.

[Warlord]

Did you bother to read the material at the link and discover just how unbelievably frivolous your argument is? The Internal Revenue Code of 1954 was enacted by Congress on August 16, 1954. The present Code (a/k/a/ Title 26 of the United States Code) is a compilation that accurately reflects the 1954 law and all of the amendments to it.

A resolution is not enacting... why didn't they pass a bill?

[Weston White]

The law:

Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code imposes the tax on the taxable income of individuals, estates, and trusts.
Section 63 defines taxable income as gross income minus allowable deductions.
Section 61 defines gross income as all income that isn't specifically excluded elsewhere in the Code.
Section 6012 says that if you have gross income above a certain amount, you must file a return.
Section 6151 says that if you have to file a return, you must pay the tax.

Ahem, he was addressing the concern of what constitutionally is ‘wages’, for the purposes of income taxation—again you are confabulating Subtitle C as if it were in the context of Subtitle A, it is so very not. You are a flat-out contrivance and liar.

[Weston White]

Did you bother to read the material at the link and discover just how unbelievably frivolous your argument is? The Internal Revenue Code of 1954 was enacted by Congress on August 16, 1954. The present Code (a/k/a/ Title 26 of the United States Code) is a compilation that accurately reflects the 1954 law and all of the amendments to it.

Again you are not being very truthful, which is why the IRC will always remain non-positive law, Congress would otherwise be compelled to bring the IRC into contextual compliance with its proper form, under pari materia (i.e., 26 USC, Section 61 does not appropriately reflect the breadth of its originally ratified form—in following only ‘constitutional incomes’).

[Weston White]

A guy named "retsquid" on youtube, has the exact same argument style and gets caught doing the EXACT same omissions.

HMMMM


Heh, I was wondering what that was about, is this what you are referring to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8q1JPGPtw

...Or this, I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAU9YhTRfSg&list=PL3600A58D178EF0B9

[Sonny Tufts]

For those who want to see just how baseless the various crackpot arguments regarding the income tax really are, I highly recommend Dan Evans' Tax Protester FAQ, http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html . Its legal analysis is completely accurate.

[Weston White]

For those who want to see just how baseless the various crackpot arguments regarding the income tax really are, I highly recommend Dan Evans' Tax Protester FAQ, http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html . Its legal analysis is completely accurate.

Well of course you do; you always do under whatever new handle you use. Spammy-troll. But that entire FAQ it is only accurate so far as it addresses capital gains and the like, the rest of it is designed to be purposefully inaccurate and dishonest.

[chudrockz]

Mr. White, you have amply demonstrated that when it comes to tax law, you haven't the intelligence of a potted plant. This will be my last response to you, because I do not wish to reinforce your deluded belief that your views on taxation matter.

None of our views on taxation "matter," because the IRS has all the guns. Doesn't make the bastards right, though.

[ZENemy]

Heh, I was wondering what that was about, is this what you are referring to? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX8q1JPGPtw

...Or this, I think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAU9YhTRfSg&list=PL3600A58D178EF0B9

Yeah that's him, he is like a copy and paste argument machine. Marc Stevens has invited him to debate live and he wont do it.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

He is currently doing time after having been convicted of conspiracy to defraud the United States, five counts of aiding and assisting in the filing of false federal income tax returns (i.e., the “zero returns” he prepared for his clients), attempting to evade and defeat the payment of tax, and six counts of filing false federal income tax returns.

He peddled bogus tax scams to people who ended up liable for back taxes, penalties, and interest. See http://tpgurus.wikidot.com/irwin-schiff

Sounds like a patriot to me.

[anaconda]

The law:

Section 1 of the Internal Revenue Code imposes the tax on the taxable income of individuals, estates, and trusts.
Section 63 defines taxable income as gross income minus allowable deductions.
Section 61 defines gross income as all income that isn't specifically excluded elsewhere in the Code.
Section 6012 says that if you have gross income above a certain amount, you must file a return.
Section 6151 says that if you have to file a return, you must pay the tax.

Wages do not qualify. They are not income. So the fact that they are not "specifically excluded" does not magically turn them into "income."

[Sonny Tufts]

Wages do not qualify. They are not income. So the fact that they are not "specifically excluded" does not magically turn them into "income."

The argument that wages aren't income has absolutely no legal basis and has a 100% losing record. The courts have fined people for making such a ridiculous claim.

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#wagesincome

[anaconda]

The argument that wages aren't income has absolutely no legal basis and has a 100% losing record. The courts have fined people for making such a ridiculous claim.

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#wagesincome

There appears to have been many acquittals when officials were either unwilling or unable to produce a law in court requiring people to file a 1040 on their wages. The courts' basis for fining people impress me no more than their recurring attempts to railroad innocent people into jail. There is furthermore no reason to assume that a jury's verdict is correct. The bigger question is whether they correctly interpreted the laws of the land.

[anaconda]

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#wagesincome

Thank you for the link. Here's another:

http://www.tax-freedom.com/

[Sonny Tufts]

Thank you for the link. Here's another:

http://www.tax-freedom.com/

All I had to do was read a few pages to learn that the guy who wrote the stuff on the site is a liar. For example, he cites Section 89 of the 1861 tax act and claims "as all duties are, it was only imposed on foreign imports, not domestic labor." He failed to cite Section 90, which imposed a duty on all income over $600.


Section 90. And be it further enacted, That there shall be levied, collected, and paid annually upon the annual gains, profits, or income of every person residing in the United States, whether derived from any kind of property, rents, interest, dividends, salaries, or from any profession, trade, employment, or vocation carried on in the United States or elsewhere, or from any other source whatever, except as hereinafter mentioned, if such annual gains, profits, or income exceed the sum of six hundred dollars and do not exceed the sum of ten thousand dollars, a duty of three percentum…

Another example is on the page "Other Supreme Court Decisions". His quote attributed to Evans v. Gore is not from the opinion, but from the brief of one of the parties to the suit. Incidentally, the Evans case has been overruled.

Another is the phony quote attributed to "Stapler v. United States". The real name of the case is Staples v. United States, and it's not a Supreme Court case. More important, the cited language doesn't appear in the decision. Using phony quotes is typical of crackpot tax protesters.

I suspect the rest of the site is chock full of similar misrepresentations of the law.

[Sonny Tufts]

There appears to have been many acquittals when officials were either unwilling or unable to produce a law in court requiring people to file a 1040 on their wages. The courts' basis for fining people impress me no more than their recurring attempts to railroad innocent people into jail. There is furthermore no reason to assume that a jury's verdict is correct. The bigger question is whether they correctly interpreted the laws of the land.

The acquittals you refer to resulted from the jury's belief that the government hadn't proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant had acted willfully -- that is, the defendant most likely put on evidence that he sincerely believed that his wages weren't income. Such a belief, if sincerely held, is a defense to willfullness, and the belief need not be objectively reasonable (and a claim that wages aren't income is not reasonable). In the leading case on this issue, the Supreme Court stated,


It was therefore error to instruct the jury to disregard evidence of Cheek's understanding that, within the meaning of the tax laws, he was not a person required to file a return or to pay income taxes and that wages are not taxable income, as incredible as such misunderstandings of and beliefs about the law might be. Cheek v. United States, 498 U.S. 192, 203 (1991)

Of course, an acquittal in a criminal case doesn't affect the defendant's civil liability for taxes on his wages, and I can assure you that no one has ever avoided paying such a tax by arguing that wages are't income, because the plain fact is, they are.

[anaconda]

The acquittals you refer to resulted from the jury's belief that the government hadn't proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant had acted willfully -- that is, the defendant most likely put on evidence that he sincerely believed that his wages weren't income. Such a belief, if sincerely held, is a defense to willfullness, and the belief need not be objectively reasonable (and a claim that wages aren't income is not reasonable). In the leading case on this issue, the Supreme Court stated,



Of course, an acquittal in a criminal case doesn't affect the defendant's civil liability for taxes on his wages, and I can assure you that no one has ever avoided paying such a tax by arguing that wages are't income, because the plain fact is, they are.

OK. Thank you for your comments. I will dig deeper.

[Warlord]

Sonny, are you really arguing on RonPaulForums about what some arm of the State (court) has ruled ?

The income tax is WRONG and Irwin Schiff is a HERO and a PATRIOT who has been denied his liberty by a vicious gang of thugs.

If the state wishes to punish him for not submitting to their taxes then they should take out a civil judgement against him for the amount they deem necessary and enforce it NOT lock him up for 12 years.

Selling information whether you think it's fraudulent or not is another non-crime and part of his 1st amendment rights. If those people are judged to be in violation of the states rules then they too can be pursued through civil courts and judgements taken against him.

It is only you who seems to support the heavy hand of the state punishing Schiff by taking away his liberties and throwing him in some Federal jail because he has done something you and the state deem punishable.

The constitution specifically forbids cruel and unusual punishments and I'd say locking up an elderly and infirm man and forcing him to live in appalling conditions and without adequate access to medical care is pretty cruel and unusual.

Cruel because the guy is likely being left to wither in his own urine and feces on a daily basis and unusual because there are only 100 such prisoners of his age from over 320 million Americans.

That seems pretty watertight to me. The DoJ are once again flagrantly violating the constitution.

[enhanced_deficit]

Holder just said there are 135 prisoners over the age of 80 and 35 over the age of 85.

One of these is Schiff's dad Irwin.

Of course the authoritarian tool deflected the question and said he's setup a working group to look into the matter of elderly prisoners and compassionate release which will report back at some unspecified later date.

If age is criterion for compassion, would that apply to Bernie Madoff also?

[Warlord]

If age is criterion for compassion, would that apply to Bernie Madoff also?

He's not infirm. Peter said his dad is virtually blind and it's likely he needs specialist medical care and is likely withering in his own urine and feces. Under these circumstances compassionate release is the only option as the constitution bars cruel and unusual punishments.

I would also say Madoff doesn't belong in prison just enforce a civil judgement against him (which they're doing)

[enhanced_deficit]

He's not infirm. Peter said his dad is virtually blind and it's likely he needs specialist medical care and is likely withering in his own urine and feces. Under these circumstances compassionate release is the only option as the constitution bars cruel and unusual punishments.

I would also say Madoff doesn't belong in prison just enforce a civil judgement against him (which they're doing)

Ok, I don't know about Schiff but don't think Madoff desrves to be set free. His scams fleeced many Americans, fraud was largest in Wall Street scams history and devestated welfare projects in Israel.

One conservative US lawmaker Tancredo wanted to beat Madoff with Baseball bat after he lost his nest egg, but that may not have been politically correct.

[Warlord]

Ok, I don't know about Schiff but don't think Madoff desrves to be set free. His scams fleeced many Americans, fraud was largest in Wall Street scams history and devestated welfare projects in Israel.

One conservative US lawmaker Tancredo wanted to beat Madoff with Baseball bat after he lost his nest egg, but that may not have been politically correct.

The government fleeces millions of Americans daily. What Madoff did is small time. Civil judgement is fine.

[enhanced_deficit]

The government fleeces millions of Americans daily. What Madoff did is small time. Civil judgement is fine.

So you think Wall Street criminals should not go to prisons and should just face civil fines?

That seems like a radical stance and too lenient towards financial fraud. Wall Street crooks are often also behind of politicians horse trading and use the money to fleece Americans again through government. Obama's biggest donor was notorious Goldman Sachs that was also involved in major scams.

[Warlord]

So you think Wall Street criminals should not go to prisons and should just face civil fines?

That seems like a radical stance and too lenient towards financial fraud. Wall Street crooks are often also behind of politicians horse trading and use the money to fleece Americans again through government. Obama's biggest donor was notorious Goldman Sachs that was also involved in major scams.

If I were in charge most of wall street wouldn't exist. At least the investment banks as they wouldnt have privileged access to a central bank and would need to find something else to do. People who run a Ponzi scam get found out eventually and their reputations in tatters and massive civil judgements held against them. No need to send them to prison.

[Sonny Tufts]

The income tax is WRONG and Irwin Schiff is a HERO and a PATRIOT who has been denied his liberty by a vicious gang of thugs.

He is a con artist who sold false tax avoidance theories to people who relied on it to their detriment. And instead of standing up and saying, "The income tax is morally wrong, and I'm not going to pay it", he filed bogus tax returns which he falsely claimed were in compliance with the law.


Selling information whether you think it's fraudulent or not is another non-crime and part of his 1st amendment rights.

There is no First Amendment right to commit fraud because fraud is simply a type of theft.

If this were Schiff's first offense I might have some sympathy for him, but he's a serial con artist and tax cheat. Every dog may get one bite, but Schiff doesn't deserve three.

[Warlord]

He is a con artist who sold false tax avoidance theories to people who relied on it to their detriment. And instead of standing up and saying, "The income tax is morally wrong, and I'm not going to pay it", he filed bogus tax returns which he falsely claimed were in compliance with the law.



There is no First Amendment right to commit fraud because fraud is simply a type of theft.

If this were Schiff's first offense I might have some sympathy for him, but he's a serial con artist and tax cheat. Every dog may get one bite, but Schiff doesn't deserve three.

Yeah right. TROLL. Schiff is a patriot and the constitution clearly says cruel and unusual punishments are not acceptable so why do you think it's ok to lock up an 83 year old, infirm man and deny him adequate medical care?

[Weston White]

He is a con artist who sold false tax avoidance theories to people who relied on it to their detriment. And instead of standing up and saying, "The income tax is morally wrong, and I'm not going to pay it", he filed bogus tax returns which he falsely claimed were in compliance with the law.



There is no First Amendment right to commit fraud because fraud is simply a type of theft.

If this were Schiff's first offense I might have some sympathy for him, but he's a serial con artist and tax cheat. Every dog may get one bite, but Schiff doesn't deserve three.

You’re packed so tightly full of crap and ethically lost. How about instead you go scream and shout your con-artist and avoidance high-ground over the (yet again) newly ramped IRS corruption that is just now casting its vapid light upon Congress; and while you’re at it, how about using your vast lawyerly power and influence to raise hell over companies such as Apple Inc, et al, that barely pay any taxes, year after year, after year.

But before you do, first be sure to go look up the meaning of fraud because seeking merely to keep your own property (via a “zero return”) is not an act of fraud (i.e., one cannot legally deceive themselves out of what is already theirs); however, criminally converting one’s capital under some hoodwinking guise and everlasting notion of ceaselessly surrendering one’s “fair share” to the ambiguous goodness of society is.