Alice Gates is innocent

[FriedChicken]

Friday morning a friend of my me and my wife's was arrested for 'unlicensed medical treatment' or something along those lines.

Her name is Alice Gates. She is a lay midwife, has been delivering babies for about 30 years in this area (she has delivered babies from mothers she delivered when they were born). She is 64 years old.

Recently a child she delivered died a day or two after delivery (very sad, especially since I know the couple that lost their baby). This child's death has nothing to do with the charges against her - except for the fact that the event prompted the hospital to file a report, that lead to an investigation that lead to an arrest.

Alice delivered children at the parents home.
Home births are illegal in Indiana for anyone with previous medical experience or education or certification to participate in. There is no law against home births themselves, just the medical community's involvement.

The state is prosecuting her for midwifing without certification. The prosecutor said that she was deceiving people into thinking she was a "certified" midwife as apposed to a "lay" midwife ... in a group setting I was present in along with the people who recently (last December) lost their child it was made very clear what the laws of Indiana are and that she had no "formal" medical background or certification and if she did she would not be allowed to participate in a home birth in this state.

(I don't think the parents are lying to anyone, I think words are being put in their mouths by the media and prosecution. The family who lost the child haven't made any public statements)

The police department keeps releasing information about the couple who lost their child as if that has something to with the arrest even though nothing about that case has anything to do with the charges being pressed exclusively.

The media is acting as the police departments puppet.



Its a very unfortunate situation its very hard to accept is really happening. This is the same woman who assisted my wife deliver our son just two weeks ago and now the entire police department and local media is trying to completely ruin her reputation and life.

Sometimes this country is very hard to stomach.
If this happened two weeks ago I don't know who would have helped my wife ... and sure their are over a dozen expecting women in the area who now have to make sudden changes to their plans of giving birth.

I don't see how the prosecutor could NOT know that Alice is innocent of breaking any laws. I don't understand how people like that can justify working to put her in prison knowing full well she isn't guilty of anything.
Furthermore the prosecutor keeps saying "The issue is that wasn't certified but was acting as if she was" which is an outright lie. If she WAS certified she would have been put in prison 30 years ago for assisting home births.

I get outraged about a 100 things a day that doesn't involve me or anyone I know. Seeing one of these horror stories play out in someone's life that is so close to my family is like nothing I've ever experienced.

I don't know of a way to help and want to. I don't know who her lawyer is yet, hopefully at some point I will find out and see if there is something I can do to help.

Everywhere we go my wife has to correct people's misinformed understanding of what is actually going on. The media has COMPLETELY failed in reporting this.




.... just wanted to post this here where I thought people would understand and share my outrage. The comments sections under articles and news stories about this are extremely disheartening.

[Anti Federalist]

Well, Fried, I don't know what to say...every day I spend in a high state of piss off, so I don't know how much more outrage I can muster.

I don't want to sound flip or callous, but I've been drinking, and I'm disgusted at the whole stinking mess...so, just another day in AmeriKa is all I've got to say.

Hope Alice finds justice, but more likely she'll find Just-Us and be sent to rot and die in a rape cage somewhere for helping people outside The Matrix.


The media is acting as the police departments puppet.

Acting?

Outside, it's AmeriKa...

[FriedChicken]

Being that she has delivered probably hundreds of children in this community I hope that there will be a strong, concentrated effort by the people to shove this back down the media's throat and make the police department correct their misinformation and the prosecutor be recognized by all as the liar they are.

But I haven't heard anything yet. There is a information void facebook page created that has around 200 likes, that is about all I know.

I really hope someone very familiar with the law (a good lawyer) steps up and organizes something to re-inform people. I want the prosecutors to be publicly shamed and ruined as a result of this ... not that I'm expecting anything good to come of this.

Realistically she will enter a plea bargain and only get 3 months prison time. She is a very timid lady, I think she is crushed beyond repair and will never deliver another child again.
They really have ruined her life. I want them to burn.

[The Northbreather]

Why don't you give some interviews to the local press to get the truth out?

[Anti Federalist]

Realistically she will enter a plea bargain and only get 3 months prison time.

She is a very timid lady, I think she is crushed beyond repair and will never deliver another child again.

They really have ruined her life.

The state knows its business and performs it flawlessly.

[The Northbreather]

Can you call her family ans get some tabs on her supporters to organize them?

I think a few interviews from healthy people that she delivered would go a long way in applying the needed pressure.

[James Madison]

Saw this in my local paper. No winners in this case.

[The Northbreather]

Get people all in one place to demonstrate. get that covered by media and social media.

Get a hold of her people, it will probably be easier than you think these days, they will have a strong bond with her if they were delivered by her or their children were.

Go.

[FriedChicken]

Why don't you give some interviews to the local press to get the truth out?

I'm 100% in favor of doing this. I think the press would rather interview a mother rather than a father but I still could probably get on a few morning shows locally.
I also think their should be a huge social network "blogging" thing, letters to the editor, etc.

However I'd feel much more comfortable if I spoke to a lawyer first. With all the laws out there I'm not confident that I know of every single one that applies to the situation and I don't want to say something that would be incriminating. I just want to know if there are things that shouldn't be said that might actually be used against her (in court).

Don't know if I'm being smart or paranoid - I just don't want to accidentally make things worse.

[FriedChicken]

Can you call her family ans get some tabs on her supporters to organize them?

I think a few interviews from healthy people that she delivered would go a long way in applying the needed pressure.

I'm close to this woman, my wife is closer, but we're 1 of many. Her family mostly consists of her and her husband. I believe both of her own children live out of town and I haven't met either of them.
If I had to guess at what is going on in their house - the phone is ringing off the hook from well meaning people and not so well meaning people. I don't think she is fight mode at all - I'm assuming her to be deeply depressed by everything going on.

She has a niece who works at a local food co-op that we sell some of our vegetables from our farm to - she is probably overwhelmed by people inquiring as well but I will ask my sister to get in touch with her and see if there is anyway to get in touch with her lawyer, if she has one, to learn if there is something we absolutely SHOULDN'T do and then get a contact list and let everyone know what they SHOULD do.

There is a definite lack of organizing all the people that support her. If I'm not able to get in touch with her/her lawyers I'll have to seek out my own legal council and go rogue and start organizing people.

[FriedChicken]

Get people all in one place to demonstrate. get that covered by media and social media.

Get a hold of her people, it will probably be easier than you think these days, they will have a strong bond with her if they were delivered by her or their children were.

Go.

Will do once I learn what our talking points need to be. There is so much I don't know right now ... I don't even know if the parents of the deceased are working with or against the prosecutor, trial dates, etc. I don't even know what law reference they claim she has broken. Everyone is consumed by the "was the death her fault or not?" discussion when the charges have nothing to do with being at fault for the infants death.

I'm new to all this. Studying the court process was on my to do list but I've focused more on economics and the general idea of 'Liberty' before learning the nuts and bolts of our legal system.
Is there a website or a place to call that would have this kind of info available to the public?

Police reports, court dates, etc?

(yes, I'm fully aware how ignorant I sound right now. I've never gotten involved in something like this before, certainly never started something like this before. Most of my political activism is tied to national politics/Ron Paul and some local politics ... mostly elections)

[FriedChicken]

Thanks all for the encouragement. I'm glad I posted here.

[thoughtomator]

WTF barring anyone with a medical certification from participating in a home birth?

[The Northbreather]

You are right about speaking to a lawyer first.

The attorney will most likely say not to speak out mostly because they wont be able to control what is said.

A large group of people standing vigil in silent support is also good.

Seems like getting the supporters together to discuss a plan is paramount attorney or not.

People need to apply public pressure somehow

[FriedChicken]

WTF barring anyone with a medical certification from participating in a home birth?

To my knowledge ... yep. I'm seeing to it that this law is changed soon.

[FriedChicken]

You are right about speaking to a lawyer first.

The attorney will most likely say not to speak out mostly because they wont be able to control what is said.

A large group of people standing vigil in silent support is also good.

Seems like getting the supporters together to discuss a plan is paramount attorney or not.

People need to apply public pressure somehow

Really appreciate your thoughts/support. A silent protest is what I've always thought is best and I think will be very easy to plan. I've been sending out messages to different people associated with Alice today on facebook and I think I'm getting somewhere. There is a lawyer we think my by sympathetic to the cause - a lady is going to contact him and his email address should be sent to me shortly.

I cut grass today ... a lot of grass ... so my brain has been going non-stop on this. I'm feeling, at the moment, encouraged. I really hope to get cooperation from a lawyer soon but even if not I think my wife and I will create a website for people to 'support' Alice through (most importantly register, giving us their contact info) and go on the news local circuit promoting the idea, webpage and while were at it setting the story straight.

Hopefully we'll be releases a few press releases of our own about women sending Alice flowers, cards and letters of support and bringing them groceries and such (I don't think Alice wants to be seen in public right now).

later on I think the ole money bomb for legal fees will be brought out. If more money than needed is raised I have some ideas on where to spend it.

[FriedChicken]

Also - I heard from a woman who knows the couple who lost their baby better than I do ... she says she can say beyond the shadow of a doubt the couple who lost their daughter are NOT helping the prosecutors.

I don't know if they'll help the defendant or not. I don't want to ask anything of them considering what they must be going through right now, but I'm incredibly impressed with them for not helping the prosecutors who have surely been pressing them for any juicy gossip they can. They are very great people going through hell right now ... I pray to God I never know what it's like to be their shoes.

[kcchiefs6465]

Best of luck. Are you still in contact with some of the women whose babies she delivered? Letters written by these women wouldn't hurt. With their permission maybe you could forward them to some editorials or blog columnists? (SPEAK WITH HER LAWYER FIRST TO SEE IF THAT'S OKAY, Sorry for the caps)

How much time is she facing?

I couldn't even imagine what you guys are going through. Tell her to stay strong and keep her head up. Things always look darkest before the sunrise.

[The Free Hornet]

Best of luck. Are you still in contact with some of the women whose babies she delivered? Letters written by these women wouldn't hurt. With their permission maybe you could forward them to some editorials or blog columnists? (SPEAK WITH HER LAWYER FIRST TO SEE IF THAT'S OKAY, Sorry for the caps)

How much time is she facing?

I couldn't even imagine what you guys are going through. Tell her to stay strong and keep her head up. Things always look darkest before the sunrise.

Great points. The DA likely wants another notch on his bedpost and the midwife likely wants to live her life in peace. As such, it would be something if a back-door resolution were sidetracked as a result of publicity/protest. Not that there shouldn't be, but if the midwife isn't a liberty-movement person, it could be awkward in the spotlight.

[angelatc]

Police said Gates told parents that the baby's breathing problems weren't severe, but the following day she stopped breathing and died.


An autopsy revealed Mara’s death was caused by respiratory arrest due to acute lobar pneumonia.

So, the baby might be alive if a real MD had seen her? Parental choice, but that's the difference between midwifery and real medicine.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

To my knowledge ... yep. I'm seeing to it that this law is changed soon.


I'll be shocked if the change won't be making making home births illegal for everyone.

[The Northbreather]

So, the baby might be alive if a real MD had seen her? Parental choice, but that's the difference between midwifery and real medicine.

Except that "real medicine" often take place in a home for the sick and diseased (hospital).

A good friend of mine just lost a brother to an infection he contracted from the hospital he entered for a totally different and less severe reason.

Its hard to say either way how many children weren't exposed to something dangerous because they were born at home, but as you said, parental choice.

[The Free Hornet]

So, the baby might be alive if a real MD had seen her? Parental choice, but that's the difference between midwifery and real medicine.

What's the difference?


In the United States, nurse-midwives are variably licensed depending on the state as advanced practice nurses, midwives or nurse-midwives. Certified Nurse-Midwives are educated in both nursing and midwifery and provide gynecological and midwifery care of relatively healthy women. In addition to licensing, many nurse-midwives have a master's degree in nursing, public health, or midwifery. Nurse-midwives practice in hospitals, medical clinics and private offices and may deliver babies in hospitals, birth centers and at home. They are able to prescribe medications in all 50 states. Nurse-midwives provide care to women from puberty through menopause. Nurse-midwives may work closely with obstetricians, who provide consultation and assistance to patients who develop complications. Often, women with high risk pregnancies can receive the benefits of midwifery care from a nurse-midwife in collaboration with a physician. Currently, 2% of nurse-midwives are men. The American College of Nurse-Midwives accredits nurse-midwifery/midwifery education programs and serves as the national professional society for the nation's certified nurse-midwives and certified midwives. Upon graduation from these programs, graduates sit for a certification exam administered by the American Midwifery Certification Board.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwifery#Nurse-midwives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwifery#Nurse-midwives)

I suspect circumcision is deadlier than midwifery (http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html), many of whom wisely oppose the unnecessary practice (http://www.fullcirclemidwifery.com/2009/02/circumcision-decisions-by-dr-sears/).

[angelatc]

What's the difference?



I suspect circumcision is deadlier than midwifery (http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html), many of whom wisely oppose the unnecessary practice (http://www.fullcirclemidwifery.com/2009/02/circumcision-decisions-by-dr-sears/).

That's a red herring.

[angelatc]

Except that "real medicine" often take place in a home for the sick and diseased (hospital).

A good friend of mine just lost a brother to an infection he contracted from the hospital he entered for a totally different and less severe reason.

Its hard to say either way how many children weren't exposed to something dangerous because they were born at home, but as you said, parental choice.

It isn't hard to say that the odds of children surviving long term is greater when they're born in the hospital. The death rate is much, much higher for children born at home.

http://www.skepticalob.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Oregon-homebirth-death-rates-2012.jpg

[FriedChicken]

What's the difference?



I suspect circumcision is deadlier than midwifery (http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html), many of whom wisely oppose the unnecessary practice (http://www.fullcirclemidwifery.com/2009/02/circumcision-decisions-by-dr-sears/).

Alice isn't a certified or licensed midwife, she is what is known as a 'lay' or 'direct entry' which means that she doesn't have formal medical training. Supposedly it is legal in Indiana since, in the eyes of the law, it would be considered an unassisted birth since there is no medical personnel present ... she would just be a witness to the birth, same as the father ... technically ... I think ... thats kinda the whole issue. So their is a pretty significant difference between a lay and licensed midwife.

There isn't much difference between a licensed midwife and an MD though, which is the point you were making. We've had both - Licensed midwife, in a hospital, with our first child. Lay midwife, at home, with our second.

[ladyjade3]

The homebirth people had me snowed too. It's something I will always always always regret. Even though my baby is OK and I am OK, it was no thanks to them.

What appears to have happened here is that some birth junkie who calls herself a midwife presented herself as someone with training and knowledge that these nice folks could trust with something so incredibly precious as the birth of their child. AS happens sometimes, no matter how much you "trust birth" the baby had complications and trouble breathing. This charlatan couldn't even recognize that her life was in danger and shrugged it off.

A BABY DIED.

Not because she injected the baby with something that killed her or *caused* it in any way, but out of incompetence leading to medical neglect resulting in the death of a baby.

And you all want to rally around the midwife and fight for her freedom to kill or injure more babies. I'm disgusted. What she did was fraud whether you want to acknowledge that or not, she's committing fraud. Licensing issues aside, she didn't know the baby was about to die. She didn't insist the baby checked out to be on the safe side. She didn't know a fatal case of pneumonia when it was staring her in the face.

The free market needs to run her out of business and make sure she can't hurt anyone ever again. But no, the champions of the free market here want to make SURE she can still practice. Google "lisa barrett midwife" sometime. This is dysfunctional. This is dishonest and this will eventually kill more babies.

This is about fraud and medical neglect. This is about naive parents who are scared into staying away from hospitals so they will instead pay charlatan midwives thousands of dollars and have dead or injured babies to show for it. I know the absolute risk is relatively small, but when its your kid, that's not a consolation. www.hurtbyhomebirth.com

The free market needs to demand honesty about risk. The free market should effectively protect women and children, not work against them. The free market should tar and feather incompetent midwives so the cops don't have to.

[FriedChicken]

So, the baby might be alive if a real MD had seen her? Parental choice, but that's the difference between midwifery and real medicine.

In general "There was nothing we could do" is just something said to make us feel better about decisions that we've made that lead to outcomes we hoped against.
I'm sure if we had ready access to a time machine their daughter could have been saved and the same goes for the thousands that die in a hospital as well.

Using precedent as an indicator ... it wouldn't have been unusual for the hospital to give the same advice, send them home and the child die that evening. Its happened before.
Hospitals have a habit of turning home birthers into child services for investigation when they bring a sick child to the hospital - I don't know if that is why they chose to monitor the child at home or not. But if they brought their daughter in they would knowingly be taking a risk of her being raised in foster care if the state chose to flex its muscles.

[FriedChicken]

The homebirth people had me snowed too. It's something I will always always always regret. Even though my baby is OK and I am OK, it was no thanks to them.

What appears to have happened here is that some birth junkie who calls herself a midwife presented herself as someone with training and knowledge that these nice folks could trust with something so incredibly precious as the birth of their child. AS happens sometimes, no matter how much you "trust birth" the baby had complications and trouble breathing. This charlatan couldn't even recognize that her life was in danger and shrugged it off.

A BABY DIED.

Not because she injected the baby with something that killed her or *caused* it in any way, but out of incompetence leading to medical neglect resulting in the death of a baby.

And you all want to rally around the midwife and fight for her freedom to kill or injure more babies. I'm disgusted. What she did was fraud whether you want to acknowledge that or not, she's committing fraud. Licensing issues aside, she didn't know the baby was about to die. She didn't insist the baby checked out to be on the safe side. She didn't know a fatal case of pneumonia when it was staring her in the face.

The free market needs to run her out of business and make sure she can't hurt anyone ever again. But no, the champions of the free market here want to make SURE she can still practice. Google "lisa barrett midwife" sometime. This is dysfunctional. This is dishonest and this will eventually kill more babies.

This is about fraud and medical neglect. This is about naive parents who are scared into staying away from hospitals so they will instead pay charlatan midwives thousands of dollars and have dead or injured babies to show for it. I know the absolute risk is relatively small, but when its your kid, that's not a consolation. www.hurtbyhomebirth.com

The free market needs to demand honesty about risk. The free market should effectively protect women and children, not work against them. The free market should tar and feather incompetent midwives so the cops don't have to.

Alice has be midwifing for 30 years, hundreds of babies and just now has this trouble. The "free" market (its not free at all, hospitals are a very controlling power in this area) has been doing the opposite as you say it should be ... the thing about free markets is that they're out of any one person's control. Everyone is a contributing factor but none are dictators by themselves. If you believe the free market is trust worthy, which you seem to do, than you need to realize that the community is quite happy with her.

I didn't come here to argue.

You've said what you wanted and thats fine, but I came here for encouragement, advice and help keeping a good woman out of prison. If you don't want to contribute to those purposes please stay out of the conversation now that you've made your opinion clearly stated.

I have friends that feel the same way you do (every home birther does) so please don't interpret this post as being hostile towards you or your views. I just don't want this thread to be derailed into a debate.
Thanks for understanding.

[ladyjade3]

This is the kind of thing you're getting behind. And no, I won't be silenced. http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/homebirth-warning-after-baby-josephs-death-20130510-2jc50.html

[ladyjade3]

If this happened to an OB who had been practicing for 30 years, there would be hell to pay. Midwives need accountability too. Instead they get bake sales. You're in a cult. It's a cult. A cult that sweeps their dead children under the rug in the name of "trusting birth". I used to be in that cult too.

Wake up.

[FriedChicken]

UPDATE:

Someone contact the lawyer friend that turns out IS sympathetic. He isn't familiar with the laws pertaining to the case but said he would help however he can. I did some googling before work today about laws ...
two years ago when my wife and I were considering a home birth (and my sister was planning one for herself) I came across several sources that backed up what I said in my OP.
I can't find any of those sources now ... not even old out dated ones.

I keep running in circles. Home births are legal in the sense that the parents are protected from prosecution and midwifery is legal in the sense that any RN can become a midwife.
However ... I can't seem to find information on the laws regarding a licensed midwife participating in a home birth. Two years ago, through research, I was positive it was illegal for a nurse/licensed midwife to participate in home births. Now I'm not sure ... confusing. I know many people who were under the same impression as I indicated in the OP who came to the conclusion through their own research ... so I know I got it from somewhere.

It it turns out that what Alice has been doing is undeniably illegal than I'm planning on rallying all the father's of home delivered babies to turn themselves in for aiding in a crime (Father's do a lot of 'assistant' help, so if Alice is guilty the father should be as well). I hope that makes something click in the Jury's mind that the state is the bad guy and the law is wrong. Not holding my breath.

[FriedChicken]

If this happened to an OB who had been practicing for 30 years, there would be hell to pay. Midwives need accountability too. Instead they get bake sales. You're in a cult. It's a cult. A cult that sweeps their dead children under the rug in the name of "trusting birth". I used to be in that cult too.

Wake up.

Actually I don't think there would be hell to pay for an OB.
Great, I'm in a cult, I like it. My family is happy in it, we know the risks, thanks for your concern. I'm glad you're awake and are now openly advocating for the imprisonment of this woman.

This baby's death has nothing to do with the charges. She isn't being held accountable for anything other the lack of proper licensing. The prosecutor has said that is the only issue ... leading me to believe that if she had been licensed and in a hospital and the same thing happened no charges would be pressed.

If you want to change my mind about home births please do so through PM instead of derailing the thread into an argument.
Thanks for understanding.

[FriedChicken]

Best of luck. Are you still in contact with some of the women whose babies she delivered? Letters written by these women wouldn't hurt. With their permission maybe you could forward them to some editorials or blog columnists? (SPEAK WITH HER LAWYER FIRST TO SEE IF THAT'S OKAY, Sorry for the caps)

How much time is she facing?

I couldn't even imagine what you guys are going through. Tell her to stay strong and keep her head up. Things always look darkest before the sunrise.

My wife and sister are bringing her some fruit, flowers, tea and groceries Wednesday. I don't know if she'll be home, the media has given everyone her address and if I were her I wouldn't feel safe there given what some have advocated for in the comments under some articles.

I'm in contact with some mothers she has assisted, trying to get in touch with more. Soon I hope to have a website and publicize the crap out of it where people can send in their contact and association info to be included on a mailing list.

Press is reporting different punishments ... she would be guilty of a "class D felony" which is punishable by either 3 months to 3 years or 1 to 2 years. Not sure which. That is based on just one offense.

She has done over 200 births I think. She delivered my son just over two weeks ago. I guess if they wanted to go crazy it wouldn't take much to prove she is a multiple offender but I think the odds of that next to impossible.
They want her behind bars but they don't want to look like bullies doing it, which is why the police keep putting out releases misleading people into thinking that she lied to the couple (I know the couple and they weren't under any false impressions and don't claim to have been) and that the parents are the ones pressing the charges (they are not, nor are they cooperating with the prosecutor.)

Thanks for the encouragement. Seriously.

[FriedChicken]

I'll be shocked if the change won't be making making home births illegal for everyone.

I think things will probably stay the way they are now and have been for a very long time, honestly. I was just sounding tough for forum cred - not that I won't be doing whatever is in my power to change the law, I just don't expect it to change very soon.

But the home birth crowd is a lot like the 2nd amendment crowd. They're mostly politically inactive unless their way of life is threatened ... when that happens they go into momma bear mode. I don't think any of our state legislators want to deal with their wrath - I've been wrong before though.

[FriedChicken]

[small] UPDATE:

Yard sale planned for the 25th of this month. Families are donating items to it (if you're in the area and have a young child this would be a great place to buy) and all the proceeds are going to a fund for Alice's court/law fees. PM me if you'd like details on it or if you have items to donate. It will be in Evansville, Indiana.

Someone has set up a dedicated paypal account for people to donate to the fund as well.

I was about suggest that they start a chipin but noticed chipin isn't around anymore. Does anyone have any better ideas than just a paypal account for collecting online donations?

[FriedChicken]

Bump for the donations question.

Also seems that the parents were given a veiled threat to have their son taken away from them - which I suspected was part of this. I don't know if the threat came from the police, the investigators or child services I just know someone said after interrogating them "well we'll let you keep you son ... for now". He is about 2 years old and one of the most well behaved toddlers I've met, I'm not easily impressed with kids but I really like this one.

Its very obvious to me that this couple are extremely good parents and have a great family. The more information I get the more sad this becomes.

There is a special place in hell for anyone that would threaten this couple with taking their other child from them when they're going through this, especially if the threat was a leverage tactic.

[asurfaholic]

I've been praying for you and Alice. Stay strong

[FriedChicken]

Thank you, seriously.

Does anyone have a good suggestion for a method of collecting online donations? Thanks in advance.

[angelatc]

I think your friend made the mistake of unintentionally giving medical advice when she said the breathing issue would go away.

You mentioned you were looking for laws about midwifery in Indiana - here is what Wikipedia says:


In 27 states it is legal to hire a [direct-entry midwife (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwife#Direct-entry_midwives), or certified professional midwife (CPM).[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_birth#cite_note-Should-45) It is legal in all 50 states to hire a certified nurse midwife, or CNM, who are trained nurses, though this practice is rare as most CNMs work in hospitals.[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_birth#cite_note-Should-45) Some CPMs continue to attend mothers in the 23 states where it is illegal, and can be arrested and prosecuted, while efforts are underway to change the law.[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_birth#cite_note-Should-45)

Practising as a direct-entry midwife (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwife#Direct-entry_midwives) is still (as of May 2006) illegal under certain circumstances in Washington, D.C. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.) and the following states: Alabama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama), Georgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)), Hawaii (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii), Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois), Indiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana), Iowa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa), Kentucky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky), Maryland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland), North Carolina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina), South Dakota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota)and Wyoming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming).[46] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_birth#cite_note-46) However, Certified Nurse Midwives can legally practise in these areas.

It looks to me like Indiana insists that midwives have medical training, so I'm not sure that your statement indicating that home births are illegal in Indiana for anybody with medical training is accurate.

Here's an informal law blog post: http://indianalawblog.com/archives/2011/10/ind_law_midwive.html

As far as collecting money online, Paypal is still the standard, but they can get nasty fast. If you don't mind all your p's and q's, they'll freeze your money and make you jump through outrageous hoops to get it.

[amy31416]

I'm not for or against home birth, but my cousin had a baby this way about two months after I did. The baby's breathing stopped for a short period of time and she had to be massaged to get it started. I have no idea if it has anything to do with it, but her kid's almost two and still isn't talking, aside from "mama." (And there are other minor deficiencies that are kinda obvious, but not discussed.)

I had a really shitty hospital experience, so I can see why this movement exists but I'd go the hospital route again--I'd just do it differently.

[nobody's_hero]

WTF barring anyone with a medical certification from participating in a home birth?

Yeah that'll definitely show up on a 'top 10 dumbest laws' list.

Sorry folks, this birth is for beginners only. It sounds like a good ad, though:

Are you a trucker looking for an opportunity to bring new life into the world? A credit card salesman who always wanted to be stork? How about a gas-pump attendant by day, who dreams of being an OB-GYN by night? Come to Indiana. [disclaimer: anyone who has the slightest clue of what they're doing in a live-birth situation may NOT apply under penalty of law]

[Invi]

I wanted to comment on this when it was posted initially, but I held my tongue because I couldn't find the law in question.
Can you cite the state "code" for this? Because I can't find it, and what I can find it saying that ONLY nurses and OBs can be licensed as certified nurse midwives and can attend home births, not that those with medical training are barred from being birth attendants.
Your state doesn't license certified profession midwives, which I guess is why Alice is considered a "lay" midwife?

It's confusing. :-/
I know until recently Missouri didn't recognize CPMs either, which makes me pretty happy I had my baby in Nevada.

[FriedChicken]

Edit: forgot to include quote but this was intended to be a direct reply to Angel's most recent post in this thread.

Thanks for the reply.

I was under the impression, based on the police press release, that she declared the condition to not be serious (same as you're under the impression of) however ... heard the other side of the story and it seems the police cherry picking information and purposely leaving some stuff out. I don't want to go into details, I don't know that that would help or hurt the case.

Yeah, I'm finding that same info as you did in my recent searches. I'm thinking that there is also a reason nurse midwives aren't able to help - it might have to do with them needing a certain amount of OB backup and OB's won't back them if they're doing homebirths. However, I was under the impression 3 years ago that it was illegal for some reason or another when I did my research while my wife was pregnant with our first.

So yes. I'm a bit confused on what actual outcome is with the law. I've met several people who researched the matter and came to the same conclusion I stated in my op so I know it didn't come from no where - but I'm having trouble confirming that now.

Thanks for doing the research on your own (honestly) and for the paypal tips.

Please trust me in saying the police has done a poor job telling the story on this one. Alice wants things to be set straight but I'm not sure what all can be said that would be good for the trial outcome.

[FriedChicken]

What I know for absolutely sure is that the state only recognizes nurse midwifes and we actually used one for our first kid in a hospital.
I don't know that just because the state wouldn't recognize Alice as a midwife that it would be default make what she does illegal - if she is there at the request of the parents she may be no more than just a witness to the birth in the eyes of the law. I might be grasping at straws.


However I'm almost sure, but unable to confirm, that even though the state recognizes nurse midwives I think they are violating some law or another by assisting in homebirths. Perhaps the midwife would have to be acting as an arm or the hospital and it would be considered out of hospital patient care?

To my knowledge there are no nurse midwives who will assist in homebirths in Indiana ... I think that is for a reason.

If someone is a CPM (Certified professional midwife) I can easily imagine that being illegal (not that it should be) in Indiana because they're using a certification the state doesn't recognize.

According to the prosecutor, as I understand it, the entire case revolves around "Alice claiming to be licensed when she wasn't". The parents DID say they thought she was licensed, which I have to believe is a misunderstanding because I know the couple to NOT be liars.

However ... in the context they said that the authorities were [take this with a grain of salt, this is just my understanding] entertaining the idea of removing their 2 year old son from their custody. Them being under the impression she was licensed makes them a victim instead of an accomplice and the chance of them losing their son goes down drastically.

Also keep in mind that this was hours after their daughters death they were being interrogated [I think].

So yeah, stay tuned. I'll try to get to the bottom of the actual laws.

[FriedChicken]

I'm not for or against home birth, but my cousin had a baby this way about two months after I did. The baby's breathing stopped for a short period of time and she had to be massaged to get it started. I have no idea if it has anything to do with it, but her kid's almost two and still isn't talking, aside from "mama." (And there are other minor deficiencies that are kinda obvious, but not discussed.)

I had a really shitty hospital experience, so I can see why this movement exists but I'd go the hospital route again--I'd just do it differently.

Sorry to hear about your cousin and your hospital experience.
I'm just curious - has anyone tried to teach your cousin sign language? I was amazed at how fast my daughter picked it up - well before she could talk she communicated through sign.

If your cousin has other deficiencies the sign language might help too - it is very effective in some cases for engaging children who have downs syndrome, autistic and other things like that.


There are a lot of things hospitals could do differently. I think we will continue to have our kids at home but I know that if a birthing center opened in the area that would be the next best thing.

We went with a nurse midwife for our first kid and spoke with her a lot before choosing her. She was a very nice lady who was open to other things but due to the OB backup she was required to have her hands were tied on many things. There are a lot of differences between the experiences but one that stands out the most is that we learned 10x's as much about nutrition, exercises, ways to decrease the risk of tearing, etc. when we were doing a home birth.

There isn't any reason that education can't be given/used in a hospital scenario ... but it wasn't. Truthfully the seemed to be way less concerned about complications because they had the ability to just wheel her down to the C-section ward or just crank up the pitocim to speed up contractions if need be.

Their ability to immediately deal with complications, in my opinion, resulted in them taking far fewer precautions to prevent the complications -especially in prenatal care/nutrition/exorcise etc.

[FriedChicken]

Yeah that'll definitely show up on a 'top 10 dumbest laws' list.

Sorry folks, this birth is for beginners only. It sounds like a good ad, though:

Are you a trucker looking for an opportunity to bring new life into the world? A credit card salesman who always wanted to be stork? How about a gas-pump attendant by day, who dreams of being an OB-GYN by night? Come to Indiana. [disclaimer: anyone who has the slightest clue of what they're doing in a live-birth situation may NOT apply under penalty of law]

That is my understanding of the law. I don't think it is written in simple black and white - but I think that is the end result. I'm having a hard time finding my sources for what I said in my OP - but I've met several people under the same impression. I find it unlikely that we all came to the same conclusion falsely.

I'm starting to think there isn't a specific law stating that, but rather several laws that when they're all followed it leaves a medical professional participating in a home birth in violation of one law or another.

In my OP I said that if Alice were licensed she would have been put in prison 30 years ago for participating in home births ... I jumped the gun when I said that. The more I think about the more I think all that would have happened is her licensed would have been revoked 30 years ago.

But as I've said several times I have yet to get to the bottom of it.