PDA

View Full Version : Ron Paul Policy Critique: Gold vs. Greenback




Throwback280s
11-25-2007, 07:36 PM
Problem: Fiat Money vs. Fractional Reserve Banking?

I have been a big supporter of Ron Paul's plans to challenge the Federal Reserve's control over our nation. I was also big into his call for a dual currency system in which individuals could deal in gold standard-based currency if they so wished.

However, I watched the excellent film The Money Masters and it's caused me to rethink my position on this issue and question Ron Paul's proposed solution for this problem.

Ron Paul often criticizes fiat currency, paper money created out of thin air. He argues that the eventual goal would be to move towards a hard money system such as the gold standard. The Money Masters argument agrees with the need to abolish the Federal Reserve, get out of the IMF, World Bank, and BIS. And they also criticize a private central bank. However, the film contends that fiat currency is not the ultimate problem facing our nation's economic woes. It is fractional reserve banking (ex. banks loaning out $10,000 based on $1,000 in reserves it has).

The film argues that a Gold Standard is not the way to solve the monetary crisis. Apparently, the IMF and other central banks own approx. 2/3rds of the world's gold supply. By returning to the gold standard at this time, we would be at the mercy and manipulation of these bankers. Also, the film shows that Ben Franklin and other founding fathers felt that the Revolutionary War was fought in part over Great Britain forcing the colonies onto a gold standard and then hoarding their gold through taxation. Instead, the fiat currency the colonies used previously had apparently been a prosperous system.

Rather than adopt a gold standard, the key is to return power of issuing money away from a private bank and back to the US Treasury. The US Treasury notes would be printed interest free and would coincide with a gradual phasing out of fractional reserve banking in the nation's banks.
Here's a summary of the proposed solution put forth by the film:
Quote:


Monetary Reform Act

By way of conclusion, the film presents an option for a different kind of monetary policy for the United States, the Monetary Reform Act. The film suggests that fractional-reserve banking and the Federal Reserve System be abolished in favor of 100% reserve banking. These reserves would come from the government, which would issue non-interest generating money to repay the public debt to the banks. This would happen over a gradual period of one year. As the government repaid its debt, the banks would be required to hold the government's new money as reserves and the reserve rate would slowly be increased to 100%. Thus, there would be no inflation or imbalance in the amount of money in circulation. The issuing of new money would then be controlled. In order to prevent inflation, issuance would be according to population statistics. After the public debt was repaid, money that would previously have been interest on the debt would be distributed by the government as a tax refund, leading to the abolition of income tax.
The film shows that Lincoln's use of this US Treasury Greenback system was an extremely successful and prosperous model. Whereas gold standard-based economies have consistently been manipulated by world banking powers.

I would like to see a detailed rebuttal of this alternative solution to the Federal Reserve if it exists. Any other discussion of various points, strengths and weaknesses, of both approaches would be great.

It seems as if the dual currency proposal Ron Paul wants to offer is a simple bandaid. I am a firm believer in gold and encourage everyone I know to invest in it. But I'm wary of a gold standard with the realization that private bankers have consolidated vast portions of it and can manipulate the value of it as well.

Sometimes I wonder if free market proponents of a gold standard, while they are absolutely courageous and right about exposing the dangers of our Federal Reserve private bank, are acting more in their own self-interest in the desire to remedy the situation with a gold standard. Many of them often heavily invest in the gold market.

I feel like a sound fiat currency issued by the Treasury Dept as the Constitution requires sounds like the better alternative. I think only with that in place, would an optional free market based gold/silver-backed 2nd currency be fit for implementation as well.

justintempler
11-25-2007, 08:24 PM
Throwback,

I'm in agreement. I first watched The Money Masters on google video and thought it was so full of information that I actually paid for the real DVD. (very rare). As long as there are strict controls on a government issued note, I see no reason why it would not work and may actually be far better than a gold backed currency.

Malakai0
11-25-2007, 08:33 PM
Would proper debt free paper money be better than gold? Yeah.


But it is 1000x easier to manipulate, it also requires you trust the people in office to follow the rules and do whats best for you.


The first step is legalizing gold. Even if the IMF owns over half the worlds gold, we will still be WAY WAY WAY better off with gold than what we have now.

Real gold coins cannot be inflated. Any paper currency can.

If we had Thomas Jefferson running the government I'd be for a colonial script or lincoln greenback type currency as well.


But we don't.

derdy
11-25-2007, 10:37 PM
Central banks have been dumping their gold to drive the price of gold down. I can't remember where I read it, but more private individuals own gold now than they have in a long time.

I believe Ron Paul wants a return to 'gold standard.' Meaning it would be some other precious metals as well and also allow competing currencies.

Fractional-reserve banking is how banks create money out of thin air.

fsk
11-25-2007, 10:59 PM
The correct solution is to get the government out of the "business" of regulating money.

All the government needs to do is repeal all the taxes and laws that prevent people from using gold and silver as money. All regulation of the banking industry should also be repealed. There is absolutely no chance of either of those reforms being passed.

Bradley in DC
11-25-2007, 11:09 PM
Thinking that the factually challenged TMM is an "excellent film" is where you went wrong. Start with Mises The Theory of Money and Credit.

austin356
11-25-2007, 11:14 PM
Well if you understood Dr. Paul's proposal you would know that:

A competing currency (if issued by the treasury) would have NO fractional reserve banking.

Highstreet
11-25-2007, 11:27 PM
just thought I would post this here. It is an excellent video collage on this topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaxdUPNYj2s

This topic has many facets to it and cannot be covered in a short video.

Basically they are stealing the value of the money I and you make each paycheck. They are only able to do this because past generations have weakened the controls on the money supply. It is time to take the control back.

noxagol
11-25-2007, 11:32 PM
Competing currencies are the way to go, let the market pick the best one.

Throwback280s
11-25-2007, 11:39 PM
Well if you understood Dr. Paul's proposal you would know that:

A competing currency (if issued by the treasury) would have NO fractional reserve banking.

I understand that. What RP is saying on the campaign trail is to legalize gold and silver based currency (by removing the capital gains tax) and allowing it to circulate as a 2nd currency for those who want to place their wealth in it. But the problem I see arising is that this would only be a tiny little bandaid. With a choice between the Fed's destroyed currency and a gold based currency that can be manipulated by IMF, the people still would lose out.

And the Greenback system doesn't require a Thomas Jefferson. Lincoln wasn't nearly as principled in following the Constitution yet he followed through with the system. Furthermore, a major problem would be fixed by simply making it a part of the law that the government can only create more US Treasury notes and inflate the currency precisely in correlation to population increase.

The Mises institute seems to reject this Constitutional approach to sound money in favor of one currency based on the free market and gold and silver. But I see the world bankers using an opportunity like this to control our economy in another form. Furthermore, while the idea of a gold/silver free market dual currency is great and I'm all for that. I don't think it should replace a constitutional US Treasury interest-free fiat currency. This is where some libertarian ideals seem to part way with the true constitutional approach (Similar to how some argue for complete open borders and unrestricted immigration).

jonahtrainer
11-26-2007, 12:52 AM
Competing currencies are the way to go, let the market pick the best one.



Repealing the 28% rate gain would almost completely solve the problem.

Digital gold and silver currencies (goldmoney.com, pecunix.com, etc.) exist and function much more efficiently than any fiats. Many function as bailments not loans. Coupled with sites like Prosper.com, micro-lending like Ebay model, what purpose do banks serve? They are no longer needed in the Information Age. Nevertheless, the Money Trust (monopoly) will not die quietly. Getting rid of the conflict will be wonderful.

Throwback280s
11-26-2007, 08:31 AM
Repealing the 28% rate gain would almost completely solve the problem.

Digital gold and silver currencies (goldmoney.com, pecunix.com, etc.) exist and function much more efficiently than any fiats. Many function as bailments not loans. Coupled with sites like Prosper.com, micro-lending like Ebay model, what purpose do banks serve? They are no longer needed in the Information Age. Nevertheless, the Money Trust (monopoly) will not die quietly. Getting rid of the conflict will be wonderful.
Don't you think the most ideal scenario would be a US Treasury interest-free fiat currency with fractional reserve banking ended in the nation w/ a rate of inflation tied directly to population coupled with an optional gold/silver,etc hard money currency for those interested?

kylejack
11-26-2007, 08:38 AM
Please note that Ron Paul does not support a return to the Gold Standard, but rather the legalization of alternative currencies. These currencies could be based on any commodity. Liberty Dollar is one example of an alternative currency. This would allow people to use relatively inflation-free money. Another example would be certificates of ownership of barrels of oil.

These could compete alongside FRNs.

Throwback280s
11-26-2007, 04:05 PM
Please note that Ron Paul does not support a return to the Gold Standard, but rather the legalization of alternative currencies. These currencies could be based on any commodity. Liberty Dollar is one example of an alternative currency. This would allow people to use relatively inflation-free money. Another example would be certificates of ownership of barrels of oil.

These could compete alongside FRNs.

Yes, you are right on. But the thing is I see that policy being only a temp. bandaid and eventually becoming a problem again. Reason is that with these alternative currencies they will be backed by gold, silver. His ultimate goal is to eventually phase out the Federal Reserve. What I'm saying is when that time comes if we are left with simply those alternative free market commodity based currencies, I fear that the world bankers and they're hoarded stash of those metals will still be able to tamper with our economy and create crashes. Now, this would be remedied if when he slowly phases out the Fed that he replaces it with the proposed US Treasury fiat currency as the default currency of the country in addition to the alt. gold/silver based currencies. Otherwise, I see trouble on the horizon with it. And I've yet to RP actually address such a solution.

parocks
11-26-2007, 05:03 PM
I'd like to see more "United States Notes" (greenbacks) in circulation, as well as gold certificates and silver certificates.

I guess the government can just pay its bills with United States Notes that they print.

Debt? What debt? How much do we owe you? We'll just crank up the printing presses and hand out the United States Notes.

Inflationary, sure. But once we get our debt zeroed out, we can focus on implementing the gold standard.

Iran is apparently working on some sort of usury free monetary system which could be studied.

parocks
11-26-2007, 05:31 PM
http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/war-with-iran.php

Interesting article - BEHIND THE DRUMS OF WAR WITH IRAN: NUCLEAR WEAPONS OR COMPOUND INTEREST?

Throwback280s
11-27-2007, 04:50 PM
Inflationary, sure. But once we get our debt zeroed out, we can focus on implementing the gold standard.

Wouldn't that put us under the control of IMF and other central banks who own vast supplies of the world's gold?

fsk
11-27-2007, 05:20 PM
The idea is to allow people to use whatever they want as money.

If someone is monopolizing the world's gold supply, then people are free to use silver, copper, or aluminum as money. There's nothing intrinsically valuable about gold relative to other metals, although gold is the time-tested choice.

parocks
11-27-2007, 06:34 PM
Wouldn't that put us under the control of IMF and other central banks who own vast supplies of the world's gold?


I'll modify to "focus on implementing the gold standard (or not)."

RP wants the gold standard, and it does seem to have that cutting inflation bonus. Getting rid of the FED is key.

user
11-27-2007, 06:39 PM
The best solution is free banking.

fsk
11-27-2007, 06:59 PM
Yes, the optimal solution is: "No government regulation of banking at all" and "Don't tax alternate monetary systems, such as gold, silver, or barter."

There is NO CHANCE of that reform occurring.

Malakai0
11-27-2007, 08:14 PM
I understand that. What RP is saying on the campaign trail is to legalize gold and silver based currency (by removing the capital gains tax) and allowing it to circulate as a 2nd currency for those who want to place their wealth in it. But the problem I see arising is that this would only be a tiny little bandaid. With a choice between the Fed's destroyed currency and a gold based currency that can be manipulated by IMF, the people still would lose out.

And the Greenback system doesn't require a Thomas Jefferson. Lincoln wasn't nearly as principled in following the Constitution yet he followed through with the system. Furthermore, a major problem would be fixed by simply making it a part of the law that the government can only create more US Treasury notes and inflate the currency precisely in correlation to population increase.

The Mises institute seems to reject this Constitutional approach to sound money in favor of one currency based on the free market and gold and silver. But I see the world bankers using an opportunity like this to control our economy in another form. Furthermore, while the idea of a gold/silver free market dual currency is great and I'm all for that. I don't think it should replace a constitutional US Treasury interest-free fiat currency. This is where some libertarian ideals seem to part way with the true constitutional approach (Similar to how some argue for complete open borders and unrestricted immigration).



Unfortunately no matter what we do, the bankers who probably have more money than the rest of the world combined, can buy up and exert control of anything we use as currency. Not much we can do about that.


It sucks I know. As long as one fiat currency controlled by the bankers is doing good, they can always print a bunch of that to acquire whatever new currency we go to. Short of worldwide dumping of all fiat currencies, instantly making them all worthless, there is not much we can do to prevent this.