How America Helped Kill Middle Eastern Christianity

[Lucille]

And Bushbama's wars on Christians (http://the-classic-liberal.com/conservative-war-christians/) continue apace.

I often tell the denizens at neo-Trot central (hotair) that Bushbama's wars are wars on Christians, and have "built" Islamic theocracies (http://www.nationalreview.com/content/death-apostates-not-perversion-islam-islam/page/0/1), and most of the time they totally ignore it. It's like Michael said (first link):


"Where is the outrage?" There can't be any outrage. Conservative Pro-War Orthodoxy forbids it.

How America Helped Kill Middle Eastern Christianity
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/how-america-helped-kill-middle-eastern-christianity/


Do, do, do read Andrew Doran’s TAC essay today about how US Mideast policy toward Iraq and others is destroying Christianity (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-the-iraq-war-became-a-war-on-christians/) in the land of its birth.
[...]
Most were deported. Good Lord, I had no idea. What a freaking disgrace upon my country and its government. And though not as bad as Bush, the current president is still at it [...]

A foreign correspondent I know, a thoroughly secular man of wide international experience, writes to me:


A hundred years from now, I suspect the lasting historical legacy of the American interventions in the Middle East and of the fall of the Mubarak dictatorship in Egypt will be the end of Christianity in the Middle East. Anyone wanting confirmation of Hegel’s axiom that history is a slaughter bench need look no further than the the fact that this process should have been hastened (for I suppose one could argue it was likely over the long term, anyway, because in the Middle East, as in Europe after World War I, multicultural and multi-confessional societies are no longer able to survive) by the decisions of American president whose Christian identity seems to have meant more to him than to any president since Jimmy Carter (not the ONLY parallel between them, by the way, though of course the suggestion would horrify both men). And why so many conservative Christians (not just neo-cons and liberal hawks) support doubling down on this mistake in Syria is a complete mystery to me.
[...]
Anyway, America gave this Muslim woman and her family a haven from persecution in a war we didn’t start. Yet we could not give Arab Christian families — people from our own cultural and civilizational roots — a haven, even though we started the war that led directly to their own murder and persecution.

Shame on America. Christian readers, let’s batter the offices of our members of Congress and our president on behalf of our brothers and sisters in the Middle East, who are suffering in part because of our country’s actions.

[enhanced_deficit]

I had written a short article on Mideast Christianity & US policies while back, don't have access to electronic version right now. Had talked to some Christians in US with mideast background also. My impression was and still is that US public and resultingly policy makers don't care a whole lot about negative impact on mideast Christians as a result of US foreign policy despite occasional lip service by some Christian groups. Don't understand the full spectrum of causes behind this apparent apathy towards other fellow "Christians" but few major reasons appeared to be these:

- US public is generally ignorant about what really goes on in mideast or rest of the world and is generally ok with this state
- The way media shapes public sensibilities is such that they revolve around material/self interest
- Race/culture is a bigger factor than religion. For example, killing of a few dozen Brits got a lot more media coverage than killing/exodus of over a million Arab Christians of Iraq after US invasion
- Many US Protestants don't see Catholics as real "Christians"
- Among some influential Jewish groups in US/Israel, there may be some historic hostility towards all Arabs and Arab Christians are sometimes seen as "anti semitic". A Palestinian Christian or Muslem are treated same way.

I could be wrong about above and would like to hear other/contrary views to better understand our attitudes.


Related post from other thread on same topic.


US media is to great part still neocons controlled, they are not going to highlight fruits of their policies. No suprise that they have been mostly silent about exodus of Christians from mideast at very high rate ever since "freedom" bombing of Iraq started in 2003. Ironically CBS 60 minutes recently had done a damaging piece on exodus of Christians from Israel but didn't put it in full perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toNtRx2NV8Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=140s



I'm very surprised that an article like this would be seen on Faux Noise's website because it basically acknowledges that our interventionist Mideast policy under both parties has left middle eastern Christians as deer in the headlights.

Iraq "liberation" attack by neocons led to exodus of millions of Christians from there. Syria was one of the pro-Christian and secular state that opend doors & gave refuge to many of the Iraqi Christian arabs looking for refuge. Now Syria is under "freedom" attack from Al Qaeda, Obama/Saudi dictator supported militants, Israel etc. It is like every country that provides relatively better security to Christians becomes a target for neocons "freedom" attacks.




And it appears that some people didn't want that video shown to the U.S.A.

Apparently 29,000 angry "Christian Zionists" sent emails to CBS to protest this broadcast.

Mideast Arab Christians and Israel's relationship is complex. Here are few reading samples to piant a rough picture of their history.
This may also explain why numbers of Christians living in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Palestine under Israeli occupation have dewindled after recent freedom wars neocons imposed there and number of Christian refugees who were given refuge by our close ally Israel in the region remains close to Zero. Syria was a relatively safe haven for Christian arab refugees in mideast until Al Qaeda , Saudi dictators, Israel and Obama's puppet maters started supporting attacks there.




Michael Oren: I think that the major problem in the West Bank as in elsewhere in the Middle East is that the Christian communities are living under duress.
Bob Simon: And this duress is coming from Muslims, not from the Israel occupation?
Ambassador Michael Oren: I believe that the major duress is coming from that.
[Zahi Khouri: Great selling point. Easy to sell to the American public.]
Zahi Khouri is a Palestinian businessman. He owns the West Bank Coca-Cola franchise.
Zahi Khouri: I'll tell you I don't know of anybody and I probably have 12,000 customers here. I've never heard that someone is leaving because of Islamic persecution.
Ari Shavit, one of Israel's most respected columnists, believes Christians have become collateral damage.
Ari Shavit: I think this is a land that has seen in the last century a terrible struggle between political Judaism and political Islam in different variations.
Bob Simon: And the Christians are being squeezed in the middle between the Jews and the Muslims?


In 2009, this group of Christian activists did something unprecedented. They published a document called Kairos, criticizing Islamic extremism and advocating non-violent resistance to the Israeli occupation which they called a sin against God.

It was endorsed by the leaders of 13 Christian denominations including Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican.

Michael Oren: These are denominations who have been exceedingly critical of the State of Israel. And sometimes to the point of going beyond legitimate criticism. And so--
Bob Simon: What does that mean to go beyond...
Michael Oren: Well, I think--
Bob Simon: --legitimate criticism?
Michael Oren: Accusing of us-- of crimes that would be very, I think, historically associated with anti-Semitism. And it was actually so inflammatory, Bob, that we didn't-- many of us didn't even bother responding to it.
Mitri Raheb: They are fearful of this document because they are afraid this might influence the Christian world.
Reverend Raheb, who helped write the document, says it's anything but anti-Semitic.
Mitri Raheb: This document is-- doesn't ask for violent. It doesn't ask for revenge. The most powerful thing in this document actually is that asking for hope and love and faith.
Bob Simon: Do you think the Israeli government ever thinks of the fact that if Christians aren't being treated well here, and America is an overwhelmingly Christian country, that this could have consequences?
Ari Shavit: Israel is not persecuting Christians as Christians. The Christians in the Holy Land suffer from Israeli policies that are a result of the overall tragic situation. And this, of course, has consequences for everybody.
For Israel, there could be serious economic consequences. According to Israeli government figures, tourism is a multi billion dollar business there. Most tourists are Christian. Many of them are American. That's one reason why Israelis are very sensitive about their image in the United States. And that could be why Ambassador Oren phoned Jeff Fager, the head of CBS News and executive producer of 60 Minutes, while we were still reporting the story, long before tonight's broadcast. He said he had information our story was quote: "a hatchet job."



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57417408/christians-of-the-holy-land/?pageNum=4


ADL: Anti-Semitism persistent among Arab Christians

Anti-Defamation League says Coptic patriarch’s claim that ‘Jews killed Christ’ contributes to 'already virulent anti-Semitism that is part of mainstream in many Arab nations'

Ynetnews
05.29.07

According to a translation of an interview with Egyptian Copt Patriarch Shinoda III, provided by The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), the Coptic leader told an interviewer on Egyptian TV that the Vatican was wrong to apologize for longtime church teachings about Jews as Christ killers.



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3406280,00.html


Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0

[Lucille]

Thanks for all of that. +rep


- US public is generally ignorant about what really goes on in mideast or rest of the world and is generally ok with this state
- The way media shapes public sensibilities is such that they revolve around material/self interest
- Race/culture is a bigger factor than religion. For example, killing of a few dozen Brits got a lot more media coverage than killing/exodus of over a million Arab Christians of Iraq after US invasion
- Many US Protestants don't see Catholics as real "Christians"
- Among some influential Jewish groups in US/Israel, there may be some historic hostility towards all Arabs and Arab Christians are sometimes seen as "anti semitic". A Palestinian Christian or Muslem are treated same way.

I could be wrong about above and would like to hear other/contrary views to better understand our attitudes.

I don't think you're wrong.

[pcosmar]

In the long run,,it is probably best for Christians to get out of the area. It may be a blessing (to not be there) when the whole area erupts in a cataclysmic war.

[pcosmar]

ADL: Anti-Semitism persistent among Arab Christians

LOL,,
Considering that they are (for the most part) actually Semitic. as opposed to most European "jews" who are not.

[enhanced_deficit]

Thanks for all of that. +rep



I don't think you're wrong.

Thanks.



In the long run,,it is probably best for Christians to get out of the area. It may be a blessing (to not be there) when the whole area erupts in a cataclysmic war.

Have to disagree strongly. As honorable GOP Hammer noted in video below, we all have to be strongly connected to that region to "enjoy 2nd coming of Christ" :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig

[pcosmar]

Thanks.




Have to disagree strongly. As honorable GOP Hammer noted in video below, we all have to be strongly connected to that region to "enjoy 2nd coming of Christ" :


Wrong,, Christ will be visiting that area with Wrath, Vengeance and Justice. He will be cleaning house.. and he will be bringing his people with him.

There are many who have been confused with false teachings.

[jmdrake]

I had written a short article on Mideast Christianity & US policies while back, don't have access to electronic version right now. Had talked to some Christians in US with mideast background also. My impression was and still is that US public and resultingly policy makers don't care a whole lot about negative impact on mideast Christians as a result of US foreign policy despite occasional lip service by some Christian groups. Don't understand the full spectrum of causes behind this apparent apathy towards other fellow "Christians" but few major reasons appeared to be these:

- US public is generally ignorant about what really goes on in mideast or rest of the world and is generally ok with this state
- The way media shapes public sensibilities is such that they revolve around material/self interest
- Race/culture is a bigger factor than religion. For example, killing of a few dozen Brits got a lot more media coverage than killing/exodus of over a million Arab Christians of Iraq after US invasion
- Many US Protestants don't see Catholics as real "Christians"
- Among some influential Jewish groups in US/Israel, there may be some historic hostility towards all Arabs and Arab Christians are sometimes seen as "anti semitic". A Palestinian Christian or Muslem are treated same way.

I could be wrong about above and would like to hear other/contrary views to better understand our attitudes.


Related post from other thread on same topic.


US media is to great part still neocons controlled, they are not going to highlight fruits of their policies. No suprise that they have been mostly silent about exodus of Christians from mideast at very high rate ever since "freedom" bombing of Iraq started in 2003. Ironically CBS 60 minutes recently had done a damaging piece on exodus of Christians from Israel but didn't put it in full perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toNtRx2NV8Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=140s




Iraq "liberation" attack by neocons led to exodus of millions of Christians from there. Syria was one of the pro-Christian and secular state that opend doors & gave refuge to many of the Iraqi Christian arabs looking for refuge. Now Syria is under "freedom" attack from Al Qaeda, Obama/Saudi dictator supported militants, Israel etc. It is like every country that provides relatively better security to Christians becomes a target for neocons "freedom" attacks.





Apparently 29,000 angry "Christian Zionists" sent emails to CBS to protest this broadcast.

Mideast Arab Christians and Israel's relationship is complex. Here are few reading samples to piant a rough picture of their history.
This may also explain why numbers of Christians living in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Palestine under Israeli occupation have dewindled after recent freedom wars neocons imposed there and number of Christian refugees who were given refuge by our close ally Israel in the region remains close to Zero. Syria was a relatively safe haven for Christian arab refugees in mideast until Al Qaeda , Saudi dictators, Israel and Obama's puppet maters started supporting attacks there.




http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57417408/christians-of-the-holy-land/?pageNum=4



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3406280,00.html


Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0

Good insights. But I think the lack of support for Iraqi Christians boils down to one factor and one factor alone. American conservative Christian leaders literally sold their souls to George W. Bush. Seriously, some of the same bastards on talk radio who complain about the treatment of Christians in Egypt and Syria and lament about the "Arab Spring" still defend the invasion of Iraq as some great feat.

I've been talking about this since at least 2004 to anyone who would listen after I read the NYT article Iraqi Christians Flee with Syria as Haven of Choice (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/05/international/middleeast/05syria.). Also most teocons are ignorant of the fact that the "liberated" Iraq adopted an Islamists / Sharia constitution.

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established.

C. No law that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this constitution may be established.

Second: This Constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights of all individuals to freedom of religious belief and practice such as Christians, Yazedis, and Mandi Sabeans.

[Lucille]

TY, Jim. Has it fallen on deaf ears with you also?

Christ Almighty! US Foreign Policy vs. Middle Eastern Christianity
American tax dollars fund anti-Christian pogrom
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2012/08/07/christ-almighty-us-foreign-policy-vs-middle-eastern-christianity/


The US State Department has quietly ceased cataloging violations of religious freedom in its “Country Reports on Human Rights.” Of course, it’s just a coincidence that this comes at a time when Washington is allying with radical Islamists in Libya, Syria, and Iraq. As CNS reports:

“The U.S. State Department removed the sections covering religious freedom from the Country Reports on Human Rights that it released on May 24, three months past the statutory deadline Congress set for the release of these reports.

“The new human rights reports—purged of the sections that discuss the status of religious freedom in each of the countries covered—are also the human rights reports that include the period that covered the Arab Spring and its aftermath.

“Thus, the reports do not provide in-depth coverage of what has happened to Christians and other religious minorities in predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East that saw the rise of revolutionary movements in 2011 in which Islamist forces played an instrumental role.

“For the first time ever, the State Department simply eliminated the section of religious freedom in its reports covering 2011 and instead referred the public to the 2010 International Religious Freedom Report — a full two years behind the times — or to the annual report of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF), which was released last September and covers events in 2010 but not 2011.”...

[BlackTerrel]

A hundred years from now, I suspect the lasting historical legacy of the American interventions in the Middle East and of the fall of the Mubarak dictatorship in Egypt will be the end of Christianity in the Middle East.

American intervention in Iraq definitely hastened the removal of the Christians there.

Regarding the above America backed Mubarak as long as they could and I remember quite a few members of this forum actively cheering his demise (since he was perceived as friendly towards the US and Israel).

Careful what you wish for.

[Lucille]

I think one of the problems is, the victims of these wars are seen like this:

"With too many historians, you'd think it was thirty thousand abstractions fell at Gettysburg."
--Isabel Paterrson

Not mothers, fathers, kids, Christians...

How the Christian Bush Destroyed Christianity In Iraq
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/137423.html


Was Bush the Christian (http://www.lewrockwell.com/manion/manion53.html) really a fanatical heretic?

We report (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-the-iraq-war-became-a-war-on-christians/). You decide.

Heckuva Job, W!

[BlackTerrel]

Lebanese man gets 300 lashes, 6 years for helping woman convert to Christianity

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/13/saudi-man-gets-300-lashes-6-years-for-helping-woman-convert-to-christianity/?test=latestnews#ixzz2TDIbDFR3


A Lebanese man was sentenced to 300 lashes with a whip and six years in prison for his role in helping a Saudi woman convert to Christianity and flee the kingdom in the latest example of the religious intolerance that grips the region.

The court in the Eastern Saudi city of Khobar -- situated on the coast of the Persian Gulf -- also sentenced a Saudi man to two years in prison and 200 lashes for helping the young woman named Maryam -- who has been dubbed “the girl of Khobar” -- in her escape to Sweden to secure asylum.

Maryam, whose case has been closely followed in Saudi Arabia, criticized Saudi Arabia’s Sunni monarchy for instilling in her a hatred of Judaism and Christianity, according to the English-language Saudi Gazette. The Jeddah-based paper wrote that she “fell in love with the religions after she found peace in Christianity.”...

These are our allies in the region

[William R]

bump

[ClydeCoulter]

Lebanese man gets 300 lashes, 6 years for helping woman convert to Christianity

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/13/saudi-man-gets-300-lashes-6-years-for-helping-woman-convert-to-christianity/?test=latestnews#ixzz2TDIbDFR3



These are our allies in the region

300, 200 lashes? That's a ridiculous amount of lashes. Who the hell could survive that many lashes?

edit: upon looking it up, they receive 20-30 at a time, with times separated a week or so apart, what some shit to look forward to each week.

[JustinTime]

The US, and no other western nation either, will intervene to help Christians in the middle east because Christians are not part of the Wests pantheon of protected groups, Non-whites, gays, women, non-Christians.

Helping Christians fend off Islamic oppression? What are you, Islamophobic?

[BlackTerrel]

300, 200 lashes? That's a ridiculous amount of lashes. Who the hell could survive that many lashes?

edit: upon looking it up, they receive 20-30 at a time, with times separated a week or so apart, what some shit to look forward to each week.

Crazy. Can't even imagine.

[Falcon63]

Good. Now just get rid of it here and we're great.

[BlackTerrel]

Good. Now just get rid of it here and we're great.

Of course. We should oppress people based on their religion here at home. Brilliant.

[BlackTerrel]

Good. Now just get rid of it here and we're great.

Of course. We should oppress people based on their religion here at home. Brilliant.

[Lucille]

bump

[enhanced_deficit]

It's Official: Obama supported Syrian Rebels are Suspected War Criminals (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?423224-It-s-Official-Obama-supported-Syrian-Rebels-are-Suspected-War-Criminals&)

[enhanced_deficit]

I don't regret helping overthrow Gaddafi, says David Cameron after Coptic Christian beheadings

Prime Minister defends Britain's involvement in Libya after 'monstrous' killings of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians by Isil

2:59PM GMT 17 Feb 2015David Cameron has insisted he does not "regret" helping overthrow Col Muammar Gaddafi despite rising instability in Libya and the recent beheading of 21 Coptic Christians.

The Prime Minister insisted Britain and the world is "better off" with the dictator toppled and cited "huge" damage the IRA had caused with explosives provided by the former Libyan ruler.

However Mr Cameron called for renewed international efforts to stabilise the country after the "senseless" beheading of the Egyptian Coptic Christians by Isil, also known as Islamic State.
Mr Cameron has been criticised in recent weeks over Britain's lack of leadership on the world stage, with Angela Merkel and François Hollande leading talks with Vladimir Putin over Ukraine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...eheadings.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11418021/I-dont-regret-helping-overthrow-Gaddafi-says-David-Cameron-after-Coptic-Christian-beheadings.html)





On a related note, is UK helping the Christians in Syria or is it helping the terrorists there?



Syrian defense minister killed in suicide blast - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-defense-minister-killed-suicide-blast-103306510.html)
news.yahoo.com/syrian-defense-minister-killed-suicide-blast-103306510...‎
Jul 18, 2012 - Defense Minister Dawoud Rajha, 65, a former army general, is the most ... Rajha was the most senior Christian government official in Syria.

Car bombs terrorize Syrian Christians in Damascus (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/car-bombs-terrorize-syrian-christians-in-damascus/)
Damascus, Syria, Nov 30, 2012 / 02:05 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Two deadly car bombs that exploded in a Damascus suburb Nov. 28 killed at least 34 people ...





Searched, there is not a single UK or US government condemnation when terrorist killed this Syrian Christion leader in a suicide car bomb attack. Is it because he was or arab race or some other reason.

[enhanced_deficit]

In the long run,,it is probably best for Christians to get out of the area. It may be a blessing (to not be there) when the whole area erupts in a cataclysmic war.

And leave all holy land to just muslims and jews?

Recommendation that Christians leave birth place of Christianity would not sell well.