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DamianTV
05-07-2013, 08:11 PM
Adobe's Creative Cloud Illustrates How the Cloud Costs You More
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/05/07/2129245/adobes-creative-cloud-illustrates-how-the-cloud-costs-you-more


"As we discussed yesterday, Adobe plans on focusing the bulk of its software-development efforts on its Creative Cloud offering, with no plans to further update its 'boxed' Creative Suite products. The move isn't surprising, considering the tech industry's general movement toward the cloud over the past few years. Creative Cloud will cost $19.99 per month for a 'single app' version that features the full version of 'selected apps,' 20GB of cloud storage, and limited access to services. Those who opt for the 'complete' version will pay $49.99 per month for every Creative Cloud app, 20GB of cloud storage, and full access to services; it also requires an annual commitment. At that price, it would take a little over a year for a customer spending $49.99 per month to exceed the full retail cost of box-based Adobe Creative Suite 6, which currently retails for $599.99 at Staples and $403.99 on Amazon. In a recent interview with Mashable, Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen insisted that the Creative Cloud's cost to customers is lower, especially since they won't have to pay for cloud storage and other services — never mind that 20GB doesn't carry anyone far when it comes to visual design. However much customers stand to benefit from the cloud, it's easy to see that, over a long enough timeline, and with the right financial model in place, the companies providing those services stand to benefit even more than they did with boxed software. That's liable to make just as many people angry as happy, no?"

When you buy a table or a refrigerator, are you now going to also be expected to pay the Original Manufacturer a license every year for something you BOUGHT? Property Rights are based on ownership. Software is kind of one of those gray areas, but none the less Property Rights MUST still apply. I bought it, I have a right to sell the fucker if I want.

God damn companies want their cake and eat it too. You know, since we're just swimming in jobs and wages are higher than theyve ever been, no one is out of work, and we can all just as easily afford to pay just ONE company $600 Bucks per YEAR for software with pretty much no new features except a reorganized User Interface.

The CLOUD is does not even qualify as shit, as what it really is is the stinky leftovers of something that in the right situations could have once brought about growth. The CLOUD itself is nothing more than the STINK that was left over from a fucking pile of shit.

---

Edit: A better way to put it might be to say that the Cloud is nothing more than the further elimination of Property Rights.

BAllen
05-07-2013, 08:16 PM
I agree! Fuck the cloud!!

http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/1717

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-07-2013, 11:13 PM
Confused on this news. This is their flagship products we're talking about? Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign, etc? Exactly how do those programs work over the "cloud?" Anyway this will do shit. They will have to literally wait a decade before seeing any bonus. Their current products are fine enough as is. It's not like you're using photoshop for 3D modeling. Updates only bring useless features that might save you 5 minutes on 1 hour jobs.

CPUd
05-07-2013, 11:23 PM
Price: $0
http://www.gimp.org/

TheTexan
05-07-2013, 11:27 PM
Price: $0
http://www.gimp.org/

Granted, last time I used it was a couple years ago, but it really was quite "gimp" compared to photoshop. It does the job... but not nearly as well

idiom
05-07-2013, 11:35 PM
Normal price, $2500 every two years.

"Cloud" price, $600 per year.

I am going to save sooo much money at my company. Gimp doesn't cut it.

Also this has nothing to do with clouds, its just subscription licensing. You download the programs, but it needs to log in at least once every six months.

Think of it as renting software. Don't want to rent it, shop somewhere else. The government isn't making them rent it. In fact the government is usually frowny faced about companies renting software.

Original article is full of outright lies.


At that price, it would take a little over a year for a customer spending $49.99 per month to exceed the full retail cost of box-based Adobe Creative Suite 6, which currently retails for $599.99 at Staples and $403.99 on Amazon.

Bollocks.

http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65167117-CS6-Master-Collection/dp/B007R0RJRS/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1367991505&sr=8-6&keywords=creative+suite+master+collection


Edit: A better way to put it might be to say that the Cloud is nothing more than the further elimination of Property Rights.

You are getting software that is up to date and cheaper. Are they coming to your house and forcing you to use adobe software at gunpoint?

Are companies that make products allowed to charge what the market will bear or do they owe you something for free?

What form of capitalism are you defining property right from?

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-07-2013, 11:41 PM
Normal price, $2500 every two years.

"Cloud" price, $600 per year.

I am going to save sooo much money at my company. Gimp doesn't cut it.

Also this has nothing to do with clouds, its just subscription licensing. You download the programs, but it needs to log in at least once every six months.

Think of it as renting software. Don't want to rent it, shop somewhere else. The government isn't making them rent it. In fact the government is usually frowny faced about companies renting software.

Original article is full of outright lies.



Bollocks.



I reject the "Deal with it" stance. Adobe has systematically created a monopoly with their software. They buy out their competition just to shut them down. It's the only professional choice 90% of the time.

TheTexan
05-08-2013, 12:18 AM
I reject the "Deal with it" stance. Adobe has systematically created a monopoly with their software. They buy out their competition just to shut them down. It's the only professional choice 90% of the time.

Sounds like a good business opportunity.

jclay2
05-08-2013, 12:24 AM
Do people still buy software?

newbitech
05-08-2013, 12:28 AM
i tried some stuff in "the cloud" it's a gimmick if you ask me. it's just a big cluster of virtual machines that you share actual hardware resources with other people. Like cheap internet hosting, you get what you pay for. Anyone can host a website from their own home using hardware circa 2000. But we pay 10 bucks a month cause its cheaper than spending the time to maintain it and back it up. But once you get into serious development, it only makes sense to bring it in house and spend the money on the private network. Saem thing with computing in "the cloud".

DamianTV
05-08-2013, 12:40 AM
The Cloud is there to take monetary advantage of people that dont know how to save a file on their computers.

Software As A Service (a.k.a. SAAS) is there to make sure once you've bought that stereo in your car, you have to pay every month for every song you listen to. This just means they can pump out more garbage and charge everyone the highest possible price for the worst crap. There was a time when Made in USA meant something, and the Cloud and these types of business practices are giving that meaning a very derrogatory interpretation.

RonPaulMall
05-08-2013, 12:47 AM
Do people still buy software?

That is the reason this is going to be the death of CS in the long run. The widespread pirating of CS is what made it the de facto standard. And with this decision, the pirated market (which dwarfs the paying customer market) is going to be forever stuck at CS 6. Short term, no biggie. CS 6 is still better than GIMP and it will take years before the subscription version becomes substantially better or different. So pirate CS 6 customers will continue to be potential paying CS customers in training for a certain period. But eventually GIMP or one of Adobe's non subscription competitors is going to pass CS 6. And at that point, the pirate and non-paying market will shift to whatever that is. And after a period of years, that will become the new standard. Short term, this stabilizes and increases Adobe's finances. Long term, it runs the risk of costing them their market dominance.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-08-2013, 12:51 AM
That is the reason this is going to be the death of CS in the long run. The widespread pirating of CS is what made it the de facto standard. And with this decision, the pirated market (which dwarfs the paying customer market) is going to be forever stuck at CS 6. Short term, no biggie. CS 6 is still better than GIMP and it will take years before the subscription version becomes substantially better or different. So pirate CS 6 customers will continue to be potential paying CS customers in training for a certain period. But eventually GIMP or one of Adobe's non subscription competitors is going to pass CS 6. And at that point, the pirate and non-paying market will shift to whatever that is. And after a period of years, that will become the new standard. Short term, this stabilizes and increases Adobe's finances. Long term, it runs the risk of costing them their market dominance.
Considering I still make use of photoshop 7, they will have to wait a very long time. Never saw a reason to pay hundreds for an updated version of the same software.

idiom
05-08-2013, 01:00 AM
The incredibly high quality of Photoshop and After effects made it the defacto standard.

Its continues to amaze me the number of people on *this* forum that bitch about business practices in an unregulated market.

There is a tonne of competition for Adobe's products. You can use competitors products. But you don't want to. You want to use products you claim are inferior and don't have ongoing R&D.

The products being complained about continue to lead the industry, often by being first to market by a year or more with advanced technology and open standards.

God forbid a company tries to derive revenue from supplying customers with a product they want.

If it turns out to be a bad move, then its just the market being the market.

I get continual updates to CS 6 for free at the moment. They add a lot of new features and support that materially speed my company's workflow. I don't pretend to believe that I deserve free updates forever.

If you want a company to bitch at it Apple which totally trashed the professional that relied on and support them. Adobe has moved rapidly to absorb the customers abandoned by Apple.

There is a company to sell you a box of software and forget about you.

Colour?
Shake?
Final Cut Pro?
Final Cut Server?
X-Serve?
X-Raid?
Logic Pro?
Mac Pro?

Oh you built a multi-million dollar infrastructure on these products? Well enjoy them. They are all EoL without notice forever. No updates. No fixes. No compatibility updates or expansions. Ever.

I know plenty of people would pay $600 per year per seat to get updates for Apple products that Apple just decided to kill off.

It just got cheaper and safer to deploy 2000 seats of Adobe than any other competitor.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-08-2013, 01:09 AM
The incredibly high quality of Photoshop and After effects made it the defacto standard.

Its continues to amaze me the number of people on *this* forum that bitch about business practices in an unregulated market.

There is a tonne of competition for Adobe's products. You can use competitors products. But you don't want to. You want to use products you claim are inferior and don't have ongoing R&D.

The products being complained about continue to lead the industry, often by being first to market by a year or more with advanced technology and open standards.

God forbid a company tries to derive revenue from supplying customers with a product they want.

If it turns out to be a bad move, then its just the market being the market.

I get continual updates to CS 6 for free at the moment. They add a lot of new features and support that materially speed my company's workflow. I don't pretend to believe that I deserve free updates forever.
Unless you call bundled printer software that lets you add funny frames to images competition, there isn't much. One does not simply make a program as complicated as hat. It's like somebody today trying to make a totally new operating system from scratch. That will take lots of years just for a basic operable version.

idiom
05-08-2013, 01:12 AM
Unless you call bundled printer software that lets you add funny frames to images competition, there isn't much. One does not simply make a program as complicated as hat. It's like somebody today trying to make a totally new operating system from scratch. That will take lots of years just for a basic operable version.

And as soon as they do they should give it away free.

CPUd
05-08-2013, 01:24 AM
Unless you call bundled printer software that lets you add funny frames to images competition, there isn't much. One does not simply make a program as complicated as hat. It's like somebody today trying to make a totally new operating system from scratch. That will take lots of years just for a basic operable version.

That's what has happened. 10 yrs ago, most people were forced to buy their OS from Microsoft or Apple. We had linux back then, but you had to know what you were doing to be able to use it.

Today there are a half-dozen linux-based OS distros out there that even a novice user can run for free, and hundreds more available for the more advanced user. http://distrowatch.com/

If you get enough developers behind something they like, they will eventually get to a point where free software is a viable threat to its paid counterpart. OpenOffice (now LibreOffice) has already done that, and forced Microsoft to offer free online versions of its own office software.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-08-2013, 02:02 AM
And as soon as they do they should give it away free.

The software shouldn't cost more than a workstation PC. Especially if it's going to be used only by 1 individual.

DamianTV
05-08-2013, 02:12 AM
What happened to You Bought It You Use It, not this Cloud / RENTAL bullshit? How the fuck can someone be "Rented" software?

squarepusher
05-08-2013, 02:14 AM
Adobe went downhill when they required daily software updates for their cursed acrobat programs.

Although, I'm not sure how their online product will compare to their CS3 Master which was linked at $2k above. Gotta keep in mind they have a ton of teired pricing so its hard to compare really, that being said most of them are overpriced.

idiom
05-08-2013, 05:53 AM
What happened to You Bought It You Use It, not this Cloud / RENTAL bullshit? How the fuck can someone be "Rented" software?

The changed their minds about how they wanted to dispose of their private property.

We could make a law against doing what you want with private property I suppose.

For people who believe in private voluntary contracts:


ADOBE CS6

Software License Agreement

PLEASE READ THIS AGREEMENT CAREFULLY. BY COPYING, INSTALLING, OR USING ALL OR ANY
PORTION OF THIS SOFTWARE, YOU (HEREINAFTER “CUSTOMER”) ACCEPT ALL THE TERMS AND
CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT

IF CUSTOMER DOES NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, CUSTOMER MAY NOT USE THE SOFTWARE.


Rocket Science so far right?


2.1.1 License Grant. Subject to Customer’s continuous compliance with this Agreement and payment of
the applicable license fees, Adobe grants Customer a non-exclusive and limited license to install and use
the Software


3. Intellectual Property Ownership.
The Software and any authorized copies that Customer makes are the intellectual property of and are
owned by Adobe Systems Incorporated and its suppliers. The structure, organization, and source code
of the Software are the valuable trade secrets and confidential information of Adobe Systems
Incorporated and its suppliers.


4.6 No Transfer.
4.6.1 CUSTOMER WILL NOT RENT, LEASE, SELL, SUBLICENSE, ASSIGN, OR TRANSFER ITS RIGHTS IN
THE SOFTWARE (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, SOFTWARE OBTAINED THROUGH A WEB
DOWNLOAD), OR AUTHORIZE ANY PORTION OF THE SOFTWARE TO BE COPIED ONTO ANOTHER
INDIVIDUAL OR LEGAL ENTITY’S COMPUTER EXCEPT AS MAY BE EXPRESSLY PERMITTED HEREIN

Most of this is boiler plate and won't hold up in courts because of consumer protection laws, especially in Australia. There is a whole section in there just for Australia.

But in a world where the government doesn't interfere with private contracts? Better read the bloody contract.

If you don't agree with contract, don't buy the software.

Responsibility and freedom are hard.

idiom
05-08-2013, 06:11 AM
The software shouldn't cost more than a workstation PC. Especially if it's going to be used only by 1 individual.

Why not? What if the software can generate hundreds of thousands of dollars for that individual? Surely the individual would be able to bear a higher market price?

Some of Adobe's direct competitors charge more than $125,000 (Flame I am lookin at you) or $250,000 (Pablo, yup didna miss you) for a single seat of software used by a single individual.

Totally 100% worth the money. That individual will earn seven figures easily over the lifetime of that software license.

Perhaps you mean to say that an amateur shouldn't complain when professional tools are expensive.

CT4Liberty
05-08-2013, 08:06 AM
The software shouldn't cost more than a workstation PC. Especially if it's going to be used only by 1 individual.

Hardware is hardware and software is software, the price of either should be based on market forces for them at the time and not based on each other.

There used to be a time when the hardware was so expensive that they just gave the software away with it... as production and technology improved the price of a workstation PC has fallen drastically. It will continue to fall as well assuming normal market conditions.

Software is actually slightly different as you are not only buying it for raw performance vs cost standpoint, but the perceived value of that product to you. Is my paid for email account worth anymore than a free gmail account? To me, yes, to others no... Some will value 1 software over another for various reasons... but outside of your view of an actual company and maybe warranty information ... there is no reason to spend more money on 8 GB of DDR3 ram from G.Skills vs 8 GB of DDR3 ram from Kingston.

jtap
05-08-2013, 08:54 AM
Adobe went over the limit and pissed me off the other day when installing flash (remember the good old days before Adobe bought flash?) and they had rigged up the install so that if you went through the USUAL routine of clicking next, you were agreeing to install 3rd party software. Clicking cancel, which you would think would cancel the installation, is what you had to click to avoid the 3rd party software being installed. They also did a different little UI trick with closing it as well. I remember being furious. Sickening to me they have stooped to the level of using malware tactics to trick people into installing crap they don't want while trying to install something that has become (unfortunately) quite integral to viewing many webpages.

CPUd
05-08-2013, 09:35 AM
Some will value 1 software over another for various reasons... but outside of your view of an actual company and maybe warranty information ... there is no reason to spend more money on 8 GB of DDR3 ram from G.Skills vs 8 GB of DDR3 ram from Kingston.

It depends on what you're gonna do with it, and how hard you're gonna run it. Some people will want to know the SPD timings, what chips are on it, and even so far as the lot number.

VBRonPaulFan
05-08-2013, 09:45 AM
Using the cloud in an individual context usually doesn't really make sense, unless perhaps you're a scientist crunching very expensive computations.

A much more effective use is a business renting servers based on annual demand at peak demand time. Servers are expensive to buy, run, and maintain.

That article is also completely asinine, as the author doesn't seem to really know what the cloud is by blaming this on the cloud. Their gripe is really that adobe is switching from a desktop application to a web application. The benefits here to the user are many (no more updating as it is always up to date on the server, you can access your stuff from any computer that has internet access, you no longer need a high end computer to enable the desktop app to do fancy rendering that may be processor intensive, etc).

edit: unless by 'the cloud' you are referring to adobe creative cloud, but that didn't seem to be the case from what i've read so far.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-08-2013, 09:47 AM
Adobe went over the limit and pissed me off the other day when installing flash (remember the good old days before Adobe bought flash?) and they had rigged up the install so that if you went through the USUAL routine of clicking next, you were agreeing to install 3rd party software. Clicking cancel, which you would think would cancel the installation, is what you had to click to avoid the 3rd party software being installed. They also did a different little UI trick with closing it as well. I remember being furious. Sickening to me they have stooped to the level of using malware tactics to trick people into installing crap they don't want while trying to install something that has become (unfortunately) quite integral to viewing many webpages.
Unfortunately that happens way too much when installing PC programs. The radio buttons or whatever are automatically set to agree to install extra shit. I don't see how that's legal. You're supposed to ask consent, not do it anyway and give them an option to opt out.

Warrior_of_Freedom
05-08-2013, 09:54 AM
Why not? What if the software can generate hundreds of thousands of dollars for that individual? Surely the individual would be able to bear a higher market price?

Some of Adobe's direct competitors charge more than $125,000 (Flame I am lookin at you) or $250,000 (Pablo, yup didna miss you) for a single seat of software used by a single individual.

Totally 100% worth the money. That individual will earn seven figures easily over the lifetime of that software license.

Perhaps you mean to say that an amateur shouldn't complain when professional tools are expensive.
Human creativity produces the wealth through hard work, not the program. The program surely makes it easier, but your argument is similar to the company that sold you the paintbrush wanting to charge you 2,000 dollars for the paint brush because the painting you will paint may or may not yield you 10,000 at an exhibition. The funny part is back in the day I was using other programs such as paint shop pro in supplement to make up for features photoshop didn't do well/didn't have. Freehand was way better than illustrator, but now illustrator is the ONLY choice. Inkscape is terrible. What else do you use to use the program? A computer! Do you pay royalties to apple every time you make money off a project you produce on an apple pc? Of course not. Should a mechanic have to pay 500 dollars for a wrench because he's making a killing repairing motor vehicles? No. The "You're gonna make a ton of money anyway" argument is invalid. It's a monopoly and they set the price high without having an option for an individual license.

I do use alternative software as much as I can. But adobe even owns the FUCKING PDF format. The only other company I hate as much is Pantone. Making money off a god damn color palette.





Most of this is boiler plate and won't hold up in courts because of consumer protection laws, especially in Australia. There is a whole section in there just for Australia.

But in a world where the government doesn't interfere with private contracts? Better read the bloody contract.

If you don't agree with contract, don't buy the software.

Responsibility and freedom are hard.
Except a ton of industries practically require you to use adobe software, so you might as well tear up your degree and quit your job because you don't agree to their shitty contract. Hopefully one day someone will produce a valid alternative. Blender is a pretty good 3D modeling/animation alternative that I learned 3D on legit and free.

Kind of reminds me when a terms of service agreement is updated. Accept the new terms or else you can't use the service. Well, shit. I don't have much of a fucking choice, do I? I need to get this project done today.

jtap
05-08-2013, 12:24 PM
...

Kind of reminds me when a terms of service agreement is updated. Accept the new terms or else you can't use the service. Well, shit. I don't have much of a fucking choice, do I? I need to get this project done today.

There's the rub with always online and constantly updated software. If the software was a purchase and use type, you agree to the original terms. Now they are setting it up to force you to check in with them every time you want to use the software and they can update the TOS and force you to agree or cripple you at that point. The whole software industry is going down the tubes. The video game industry and online codes to stop people from reselling used games was close to the last straw for me and the nail in the coffin is the new consoles plan to be always online. No thanks!