Stossel on the Free State Project

[green73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXUuNDq4JPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXUuNDq4JPw

[MrGoose]

So is this working? I just looked it up and 650k+ people voted for president in 2012, how much good will 20k votes do?

Not trying to sound facetious. Just curious.

[FSP-Rebel]

So is this working? I just looked it up and 650k+ people voted for president in 2012, how much good will 20k votes do?

Not trying to sound facetious. Just curious.
It's not so much adding pro-liberty votes but it's the amount of active activists engaged in testifying against anti-liberty legislation/in favor of pro-liberty legislation, a growing agorist economy, social networking for liberty-minded people, activists re-engaging some elements of a former dormant NH liberty native mindset, making pro-liberty media, some resemblance of civil disobedience where applicable, electing pro-liberty politicians to the legislature and other areas. The FSP was key in revving up support for Ron in the last few elections and most likely will be a hand to Rand should he decide to run, tho not all ancaps will be involved as we see here on these forums. I'm sure there are other areas of success that I'm not thinking of. There's also a heavy adoption for PMs and BTC holders/transactions.

[MrGoose]

It's not so much adding pro-liberty votes but it's the amount of active activists engaged in testifying against anti-liberty legislation/in favor of pro-liberty legislation, a growing agorist economy, social networking for liberty-minded people, activists re-engaging some elements of a former dormant NH liberty native mindset, making pro-liberty media, some resemblance of civil disobedience where applicable, electing pro-liberty politicians to the legislature and other areas. The FSP was key in revving up support for Ron in the last few elections and most likely will be a hand to Rand should he decide to run, tho not all ancaps will be involved as we see here on these forums. I'm sure there are other areas of success that I'm not thinking of. There's also a heavy adoption for PMs and BTC holders/transactions.Ah I understand. These liberty minded people will be far more active on the political scene then. How close to the 20,000 people in NH is it?

[muzzled dogg]

14K people have pledged to move so far
1,100 have moved already

[TaftFan]

14K people have pledged to move so far
1,100 have moved already
In 10 years since it started.

[muzzled dogg]

yep. porcfest 10 this summer! register here: http://porcfest.com/ tent sites sold out. call and book an RV site; you're allowed to pitch your tent there

NH public radio's re: FSP after 10 years in New Hampshire. Listen here: http://www.nhpr.org/post/one-decade-free-state-project

[Keith and stuff]

So is this working? I just looked it up and 650k+ people voted for president in 2012, how much good will 20k votes do?

Not trying to sound facetious. Just curious.

People wondering about the open containers in a city council meeting, no, it wasn't alcohol or anything illegal. About the indecent exposure and firearms possession, firearms possession is obviously legal. A female was cited for indecent exposure because the cop that arrested her was unaware that it is perfectly legal to be topless in Keene. The prosecutor knew that he was in the wrong and he dropped the charges.

As for is it working, yes. The goal was to get 20,000 signers and then encourage them to move to NH within 5 years. The FSP is already up to 14,000 signers. But out of those 14,000, over 1,000 have already moved to NH, early, before the move was supposed to even start.

I see that you talked about the general election for President. That means you don't understand the basic concept of the FSP. Here is my personal interpretation of it.

Every year in America, we tend to lose more and more freedom. Perhaps small freedoms are gained from time to time, but over time, freedom decreases. Wouldn't you agree? (At that point in a conversation, every single person I've ever talked to the FSP about has agreed with me that freedom is on the decline.)

Then I point out that people have been trying different strategies, tactics and so on for 100s of years to increase freedom and yet the size, scope and debt of government continues to grow. You are aware that the national debt continues to grow, correct? (At this point in a conversation, the person agrees.) All past methods have not only failed, but government has continued to grow. The current path is not sustainable. We must reserve the course but no one has an effective idea on how to do that.

How would you like to be part of the solution? How would you like liberty in your lifetime? How would you like to move your family to the place with the lowest crime, the lowest poverty, the fewest problems, the lowest taxes and the most freedom in the US and once there, work to reform society and bring back freedom and liberty? There is a plan to do just that. It is to use a new method that has never been tried before. It takes the best from all of the previously failed tactics and methods and amplifies those good parts in a concentrated geographic area, while creating new methods and techniques at the same time. The idea is the Free State Project, the time is now and the state is New Hampshire.

[wizardwatson]

Free State Project is strategically unviable except as far as it works from a marketing perspective. And from that angle I think it works against us. What's the message? People who care about and understand liberty would rather abandon you to an oppressive system than try to help you free yourself from it.

[mczerone]

Free State Project is strategically unviable except as far as it works from a marketing perspective. And from that angle I think it works against us. What's the message? People who care about and understand liberty would rather abandon you to an oppressive system than try to help you free yourself from it.

Yeah, staying and tilting at windmills to the detriment of your loved ones surely is better than encouraging them to move with you to a place you can all be happy.

If you're an activist (political or direct) - staying in your location offers a very small chance of success in very narrowly defined ranges (e.g. becoming the chair of your local GOP or pulling 15% as a LP candidate) at great costs. Moving to NH will reduce the costs, will bring a network of like-minded people to your political, social, and personal support, will open up options (say, running as a Democrat as an avowed ancap-libertarian and winning a state house seat), and will save your mind from the costs of fighting against an unmovable behemoth.

And besides, if your friends and family don't want you to live free, why are you caring about their feelings if you move away from them? They are part of the oppressive system if they want to bind you to live by them in the tyranny they aren't fighting to change.

If they want you to succeed at finding freedom for yourself, and helping to free them, they should help you pack to get you to NH.

[FSP-Rebel]

Free State Project is strategically unviable except as far as it works from a marketing perspective. And from that angle I think it works against us. What's the message? People who care about and understand liberty would rather abandon you to an oppressive system than try to help you free yourself from it.
On one hand, it could be said that super activists are being depleted from states around the country in favor of NH. OTOH, some of the movers or signers could be just low-key people that just want more freedoms yet aren't really active at all. Some like doing protests yet do next to nothing in terms of politicking for repeal of laws or passage of good ones that enhance freedoms. The idea is to showcase a state that's been through this experiment of liberty and perhaps it will rub off on other states when people see why low taxes and other freedoms are beneficial. This may not happen because there's a limited amount of people in each state that are active compared to the overwhelming majority that sit on their asses and could give a flip. The secession mindset is quite high amongst most of the movers as well as the native liberty lovers but I would offer nullification as the best and likely maneuver in favor of getting the Fed gov't off your ass in many instances. The FSP ultimately is an engine that entices those that care about liberty to move to NH and saturate this small state w/ libertarians which is pretty unheard of in modern times. There was a hippy wave that gravitated to Vermont over the years and you see how that's played out. I surmise that NH will have it's own libertarian image in the next few decades if not sooner, what it has now is a 'liberty-leaning in certain areas' atmosphere to it. So, those with a selfish liberty interest that they want to pursue with a decent chance of living more free as time goes on, perhaps those types will go FSP.

Since NH is such an early voting state, more activists moving there represent X times however many votes they're able to drum up to add to the pot of whatever pro-liberty presidential candidate runs which helps that campaign rather than hamper it, and consequentially the rest of the people across the country. As far as caring for the rest of the citizens, (liberty lovers) living in states that vote after Super Tuesday and aren't likely to elect any pro-liberty candidate to the Senate or House makes no sense in terms of helping a pro-liberty candidate become the nominee.

[MrGoose]

People wondering about the open containers in a city council meeting, no, it wasn't alcohol or anything illegal. About the indecent exposure and firearms possession, firearms possession is obviously legal. A female was cited for indecent exposure because the cop that arrested her was unaware that it is perfectly legal to be topless in Keene. The prosecutor knew that he was in the wrong and he dropped the charges.

As for is it working, yes. The goal was to get 20,000 signers and then encourage them to move to NH within 5 years. The FSP is already up to 14,000 signers. But out of those 14,000, over 1,000 have already moved to NH, early, before the move was supposed to even start.

I see that you talked about the general election for President. That means you don't understand the basic concept of the FSP. Here is my personal interpretation of it.

Every year in America, we tend to lose more and more freedom. Perhaps small freedoms are gained from time to time, but over time, freedom decreases. Wouldn't you agree? (At that point in a conversation, every single person I've ever talked to the FSP about has agreed with me that freedom is on the decline.)

Then I point out that people have been trying different strategies, tactics and so on for 100s of years to increase freedom and yet the size, scope and debt of government continues to grow. You are aware that the national debt continues to grow, correct? (At this point in a conversation, the person agrees.) All past methods have not only failed, but government has continued to grow. The current path is not sustainable. We must reserve the course but no one has an effective idea on how to do that.

How would you like to be part of the solution? How would you like liberty in your lifetime? How would you like to move your family to the place with the lowest crime, the lowest poverty, the fewest problems, the lowest taxes and the most freedom in the US and once there, work to reform society and bring back freedom and liberty? There is a plan to do just that. It is to use a new method that has never been tried before. It takes the best from all of the previously failed tactics and methods and amplifies those good parts in a concentrated geographic area, while creating new methods and techniques at the same time. The idea is the Free State Project, the time is now and the state is New Hampshire.
I just used votes for president as a general idea of those who are politically active. At least in the major elections.

[LibForestPaul]

Has any state pro liberty ideas actually passed NH?
Vermont style carry?
Texas or Alaskan style homeschooling ?
Property tax elimination?
Anything

[TaftFan]

Should have chosen Idaho.

[Keith and stuff]

Has any state pro liberty ideas actually passed NH?
Vermont style carry?
Texas or Alaskan style homeschooling ?
Property tax elimination?
Anything
Yes, 100s. FSPers have also won around 100 elections, including 19 state rep races. Parents can get paid to homeschool their children in NH and the laws are quite lax now (not the best in the country but well above average) when they used to be below average. A none-state rep FSPer even wrote 1 of the good homeschooling bills that passed. Gun laws are arguably the best in the US in NH and FSPers have helped Republicans and Democrats pass several gun laws in recent years. Knife laws are best in the US, thanks to a fsper.

Property taxes are up to the community. Some communities don't have property taxes. Some have very low property taxes. Some have low property taxes. Some have very high property taxes. NH has the least centralized tax system in the US and let's the people in the communities meet and vote on the budget line by line and decide how much spending will be. So if people want lots of government services, they vote to have high spending/property taxes. If people don't they vote for low or very low spending/property taxes.

The GOP has been very welcoming to free staters in NH! In fact, it's 1 of the reasons NH won the which state vote. The governor of NH at the time, Gov. Benson, joined the FSP as a friend and welcomed FSPers to NH. Since then, many of the leaders of the NHGOP have embraced the FSP. For example, Sen. Sununu, at the time, 1 of the 5 least bad Senators in the US, spoke at Liberty Forum. John Stephen, candidate for NH governor, attended Porcfest. Gary Johnson, candidate for President, attended Porcfest. Ron Paul, candidate for President, spoke at 2 Liberty Forums. Former Congressman and current NH Sen. Majority Leader (and likely candidate for Congress or Gov.) spoke highly of the FSP. Former NH House Speaker and current candidate for Congress spoke highly about the FSP and will be speaking at Porcfest this year. NHGOP Chair spoke at Liberty Forum this year. The NHGOP has made FSPer or FSP supports Chairs, Vice Chairs or County Committee leaders in county after county in NH, including my own. Rand Paul is the major speaker at the NHGOP's largest fundraiser of this year, which happens this month. The list goes on and on and on, literally.

Let's be clear. IMO, the 2011-2012 NH House was the most pro-liberty legislative body elected in the US since well before I was born. It had maybe 60 libertarians, maybe more. The 2 most influential groups in the NH House at the time (other than the NHGOP and the NHDP) where the Republican House Alliance (a pro NH Constitution and NH party platform group) and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance, which is the most successful pro-liberty state lobbying group in the country.
https://www.facebook.com/events/470740589664892/

[Keith and stuff]

Should have chosen Idaho.
It didn't do well in the which state vote. It didn't really have any vocal supporters because well, it didn't deserve any. The top liberty activists in the world spent 1000s of hours doing researched and all of the research showed ID was a bad choice. Much of the research is still online if you dig around the FSP website. Of course, looking at things now, there isn't really a need to do much research. It's pretty obvious the NH was the right choice.