A march on Washington with loaded rifles

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://www.salon.com/2013/05/03/a_march_on_washington_with_loaded_rifles/

Libertarian activist and radio host Adam Kokesh is hoping to get 1,000 people to march on Washington on July 4 — armed with loaded rifles. The plan, launched with a Facebook group today, is to gather on the Virginia side of the Potomac, where gun laws are lax, and then march across the bridge with loaded rifles slung over their shoulders into the District, where openly carrying weapons is generally prohibited.

“This will be a non-violent event,” the Facebook group warns, “unless the government chooses to make it violent.” Already, over 200 people have said they’ll attend the march. Here’s the message:

On the morning of July 4, 2013, Independence Day, we will muster at the National Cemetery & at noon we will step off to march across the Memorial Bridge, down Independence Avenue, around the Capitol, the Supreme Court, & the White House, then peacefully return to Virginia across the Memorial Bridge. This is an act of civil disobedience, not a permitted event. We will march with rifles loaded & slung across our backs to put the government on notice that we will not be intimidated & cower in submission to tyranny. We are marching to mark the high water mark of government & to turn the tide. This will be a non-violent event, unless the government chooses to make it violent. Should we meet physical resistance, we will peacefully turn back, having shown that free people are not welcome in Washington, & returning with the resolve that the politicians, bureaucrats, & enforcers of the federal government will not be welcome in the land of the free.

Kokesh is a former Marine who was discharged in 2007 after violating the military’s code against engaging in political activity while in uniform. Kokesh was highly active in the antiwar movement after serving in Iraq, participating in numerous protests and getting arrested on occasion.

He started an anti-government radio show as the Tea Party picked up steam and was eventually picked up by RT, the news channel funded by the Russian government that is often critical of U.S. policy, where he promoted both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street in a worldview that some sociologists describe as “fusion paranoia,” a visceral anti-governmentalism that isn’t limited to typical left-right divides.

He ran into trouble when he endorsed Ron Paul in the 2012 election, which led to an FEC complaint and his termination from RT, though employees have told me privately that there were other, darker issues.

Since then, he’s taken his show “Adam vs. The Man” to the Internet, and seems to have become increasingly radicalized. “It’s time to abolish the US federal government,” he tweeted yesterday. Today he tweeted this:

When the government comes to take your guns, you can shoot government agents, or submit to slavery.

— Adam Kokesh (@adamkokesh) May 3, 2013

Whether Kokesh actually goes through with his plan remains to be seen — he says he won’t do it unless 1,000 join him — but the protest may strike a chord with gun fanatics, who stage “open carry” protests across the country to fight gun control laws. There was one in Washington in 2010, but those rallying inside District lines did not actually carry weapons.

Kokesh did not immediately return an email seeking an interview (a message on his website says he’s in Barcelona), but we will update if he does.

-t

[better-dead-than-fed]

If they take people's guns, people are just going to get this Improvised Munitions Handbook:

source 1: http://cryptome.org/0001/tm-31-210.htm
source 2: http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/june2007/imhv3.pdf
source 3: http://www.libertyreferences.com/improvised-munitions-handbook.shtml

[paulbot24]

"When the government comes to take your guns, you can shoot government agents, or submit to slavery.
— Adam Kokesh (@adamkokesh) May 3, 2013"

Couldn't you have phrased this better before you march on the capitol with loaded guns? Adam, you still have two months. If you gather that many people to do this, and keep mentioning it until then, they will know you are coming. Now they'll think you're bringing your vigilante luggage with you. Don't complain as they attempt to block this from happening in every way imaginable, not because they are afraid of you the great Adam, but because you couldn't let the march speak for itself and you.

[69360]

He's just about totally unhinged now...

Imminent meltdown approaching

[PaulConventionWV]

"When the government comes to take your guns, you can shoot government agents, or submit to slavery.
— Adam Kokesh (@adamkokesh) May 3, 2013"

Couldn't you have phrased this better before you march on the capitol with loaded guns? Adam, you still have two months. If you gather that many people to do this, and keep mentioning it until then, they will know you are coming. Now they'll think you're bringing your vigilante luggage with you. Don't complain as they attempt to block this from happening in every way imaginable, not because they are afraid of you the great Adam, but because you couldn't let the march speak for itself and you.

What are you talking about? How is the march supposed to speak for itself? If anything happens, this may be the beginning of an armed revolution, and I think that's his intention. If you're going to march on Washington with loaded guns, all bets are off. No need to "phrase this better" anymore because it's freaking obvious what's going on. They will know he is coming either way. Did you want him to keep it a secret?

[unknown]

While in Virginia up to the border, seems fine.

Not sure if crossing into DC would be legal under current illegitimate law.

We need to get him elected to Congress. :)

[jclay2]

He's just about totally unhinged now...

Imminent meltdown approaching

Expand? To me an act that is totally unhinged in face of an insane world is completely sane and logical.

[PaulConventionWV]

While in Virginia up to the border, seems fine.

Not sure if crossing into DC would be legal under current illegitimate law.

We need to get him elected to Congress. :)

I think not being legal is the point.

[jclay2]

holy crap, the comments on salon are unreal.


Actually, no, it's not treason, it's armed sedition.


Everyone on this march should have to live in Somalia for a year. Then we'll see how they feel about government, guns, "freedom" and "socialism."

[WM_in_MO]

holy crap, the comments on salon are unreal.
The old Somalia argument. LOL

[unknown]

I think not being legal is the point.

Oh snap. Dude's got ballz.

[unknown]

Expand? To me an act that is totally unhinged in face of an insane world is completely sane and logical.

I was confused by 69360's comment as well. I just pretended like I didnt see it. :(

[klamath]

Stupid stunt. When some trigger happy cop or one of the unknown characters Adam is bringing along fires a shoot and a stupid gun battle results the public is going be against gun owners and we will all lose rights because of this. It is one thing to defend your home against illegal gun confuscation it is another to march on DC with loaded weapons.

[pcosmar]

Stupid stunt. When some trigger happy cop or one of the unknown characters Adam is bringing along fires a shoot and a stupid gun battle results the public is going be against gun owners and we will all lose rights because of this. It is one thing to defend your home against illegal gun confuscation it is another to march on DC with loaded weapons.
Gun control was instituted in this country by the Socialists in the 1930s. It has increased progressively since. And is increasing yet again.
THE PEOPLE HAVE NEVER PROPERLY RESISTED IT.

They have not used the 2nd Amendment for it's intended purpose.

It's purpose was armed violent resistance to an abusive overbearing government.

The confrontation has never taken place.. Perhaps it is time.
The alternative,, is subjugation.

[Ranger29860]

They have not used the 2nd Amendment for it's intended purpose.

It's purpose was armed violent resistance to an abusive overbearing government.

The confrontation has never taken place.. Perhaps it is time.
The alternative,, is subjugation.

So you going then?

[jclay2]

So you going then?

This is a very personal and serious decision. I think pcosmar's point is that you should not ridicule those who make such a serious and deliberate stand against tyranny.

[klamath]

They have not used the 2nd Amendment for it's intended purpose.

It's purpose was armed violent resistance to an abusive overbearing government.

The confrontation has never taken place.. Perhaps it is time.
The alternative,, is subjugation.
Kind of what I always suspected many on here that claim ther don't want to incite a violent revolution and only want to defend themselves and homes, REALLY do want to go out of their way is incite violence.

[pcosmar]

So you going then?

I would like to, but don't think it will be possible.

Aside from that,, I am a Prohibited Person. I have no firearms.

please ponder the concept of "prohibited person"

[pcosmar]

Kind of what I always suspected many on here that claim ther don't want to incite a violent revolution and only want to defend themselves and homes, REALLY do want to go out of their way is incite violence.
My Home

My home is these United States. Michigan currently,, but I have lived in many.
I am greatly disturbed at the conditions of my "home" and my neighbors.
We are threatened.

[jclay2]

I would like to, but don't think it will be possible.

Aside from that,, I am a Prohibited Person. I have no firearms.

please ponder the concept of "prohibited person"

All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others?

[EBounding]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dJOIf4mdus

[tod evans]

Kind of what I always suspected many on here that claim ther don't want to incite a violent revolution and only want to defend themselves and homes, REALLY do want to go out of their way is incite violence.

A catalyst for change might require violence..

I don't believe there's one member on this board who wouldn't be saddened if violence is necessary.

On the other hand I can't think of any who believe we're not overdue actual change.


I suppose those who advocate different means had better get off their collective asses and get things rolling....

[MelissaWV]

A catalyst for change might require violence..

I don't believe there's one member on this board who wouldn't be saddened if violence is necessary.

On the other hand I can't think of any who believe we're not overdue actual change.


I suppose those who advocate different means had better get off their collective asses and get things rolling....

You mean by getting multiple Congressmen elected, perhaps a Senator, maybe get more and more people to push back in whatever ways they are qualified to do so, and funding an ever-increasing visibility for issues near and dear to them?

You're sooooo right. None of that's being done. Time to march around DC with guns to give the Government another chance to show people that "You see? Those whackjob 'right-wing extremists' are dangerous! Thankfully we were here to save you all."

[paulbot24]

What are you talking about? How is the march supposed to speak for itself? If anything happens, this may be the beginning of an armed revolution, and I think that's his intention. If you're going to march on Washington with loaded guns, all bets are off. No need to "phrase this better" anymore because it's freaking obvious what's going on. They will know he is coming either way. Did you want him to keep it a secret?

First of all, if this were truly a planned armed revolution, you wouldn't give the enemy two months advance warning. They will know he is coming either way is exactly my point. He's already laid out his plans to his listeners and he has two months to talk about it on the air. The march sends a powerful message and is a great idea, all by itself. So he's got the word out, established what the march is intended to do and why they are doing it. He's also made it clear it is intended to be a non-violent event and they will not escalate any confrontation with any authorities. Tweeting the message "When the government comes to take your guns, you can shoot government agents, or submit to slavery" the next day is reckless and the government will view and now act on it as a direct threat. They're on their way to the Capitol and the White House for Christ sake. By taunting them, he just made it way too easy for them to confuse the issue, err on the side of caution, cite "national security concerns" BLAH BLAH and destroy this idea. If you're getting arrested and you are armed, the government is not "coming for your guns to enslave you" when they don't let you take your Ruger with you in the squad car. What happens when, after crossing the bridge, DC cops tell them all to remove their firearms because of these kinds of statements? If the cops were searching for any reason to prevent this, well, after that message, youjust gave it to them. The DC police would not be "coming to take their guns" in the same context as his message, but well, hmmm, they are government agents and look at that, they do want you to remove your guns.......If you hand them over, he sure did set himself up to look like an ass, and according to him, you're now accepting slavery. Or you go all Spartan on their asses with your 1000 "peaceful" protestors who agreed to a nonviolent approach to send a message? Let me know how that goes. He diluted and confused his own message.

[torchbearer]

off to the asylum for all you whacko birds.
hatred of the tyrannical state is now a disease.... says the diseased state.

[klamath]

A catalyst for change might require violence..

I don't believe there's one member on this board who wouldn't be saddened if violence is necessary.

On the other hand I can't think of any who believe we're not overdue actual change.


I suppose those who advocate different means had better get off their collective asses and get things rolling....
On the other hand I think many THINK they do want violence, as a glorious wonderous revolution. They won't say it publically but they do.
Rand is the front runner for president and that is one hell of a political movement of the masses. Really stupid now to get impatient and blow it all on violence.

[torchbearer]

First of all, if this were truly a planned armed revolution, you wouldn't give the enemy two months advance warning. They will know he is coming either way is exactly my point. He's already laid out his plans to his listeners and he has two months to talk about it on the air. The march sends a powerful message and is a great idea, all by itself. So he's got the word out, established what the march is intended to do and why they are doing it. He's also made it clear it is intended to be a non-violent event and they will not escalate any confrontation with any authorities. Tweeting the message "When the government comes to take your guns, you can shoot government agents, or submit to slavery" the next day is reckless and the government will view and now act on it as a direct threat. They're on their way to the Capitol and the White House for Christ sake. By taunting them, he just made it way too easy for them to confuse the issue, err on the side of caution, cite "national security concerns" BLAH BLAH and destroy this idea. . If you're getting arrested and you are armed, the government is not "coming for your guns to enslave you" when they don't let you take your Ruger with you in the squad car. What happens when, after crossing the bridge, DC cops tell them all to remove their firearms because of his very statements? If they were thinking about it after the announcement of his message, you know they will be there now. The DC police would not be "coming to take their guns" in the same context as his message, but well, hmmm, they are government agents and look at that, they do want you to remove your guns.......If you hand them over, you sure did set yourself up to look like an ass and according to your own remission, now you are all submitting to slavery now. Or you go all Spartan on their asses with your 1000 "peaceful" protestors who agreed to a nonviolent approach to send a message? Let me know how that goes. He diluted and confused his own message.

it is pretty clear, that his intentions are- when met by d.c. police at the bridge- is not to give them the guns, but to turn around and walk back knowing washington d.c. does not welcome free men. and thus, going back to the other side of the river- the free men let the government thugs know they are not welcome in the land of the free.
the bridge become a line in the sand, and walking back is taking the defensive position. at the same time keeping the quills ready to gorge any aggressor.

[RabbitMan]

Not a fan. But we are a free country! Good luck!

[klamath]

First of all, if this were truly a planned armed revolution, you wouldn't give the enemy two months advance warning. They will know he is coming either way is exactly my point. He's already laid out his plans to his listeners and he has two months to talk about it on the air. The march sends a powerful message and is a great idea, all by itself. So he's got the word out, established what the march is intended to do and why they are doing it. He's also made it clear it is intended to be a non-violent event and they will not escalate any confrontation with any authorities. Tweeting the message "When the government comes to take your guns, you can shoot government agents, or submit to slavery" the next day is reckless and the government will view and now act on it as a direct threat. They're on their way to the Capitol and the White House for Christ sake. By taunting them, he just made it way too easy for them to confuse the issue, err on the side of caution, cite "national security concerns" BLAH BLAH and destroy this idea. . If you're getting arrested and you are armed, the government is not "coming for your guns to enslave you" when they don't let you take your Ruger with you in the squad car. What happens when, after crossing the bridge, DC cops tell them all to remove their firearms because of his very statements? If they were thinking about it after the announcement of his message, you know they will be there now. The DC police would not be "coming to take their guns" in the same context as his message, but well, hmmm, they are government agents and look at that, they do want you to remove your guns.......If you hand them over, you sure did set yourself up to look like an ass and according to your own remission, now you are all submitting to slavery now. Or you go all Spartan on their asses with your 1000 "peaceful" protestors who agreed to a nonviolent approach to send a message? Let me know how that goes. He diluted and confused his own message.
The fact that they are loaded weapons changes the whole picture. I have personally seen what happens to stress levels when live ammo is found. Convoy ambush training in the military. Everyone had their real issued weapons and were play firing at the instructers acting as the ambushers. All went fine until on of the instructors found the clip of live ammo that had fallen out of someones pocket when they jumped out of the humvee. Never saw a battalion get body searched so quick. Then the entire complex of barracks were locked down for 24 hours and every last room was searched for live ammo.

[tod evans]

You mean by getting multiple Congressmen elected, perhaps a Senator, maybe get more and more people to push back in whatever ways they are qualified to do so, and funding an ever-increasing visibility for issues near and dear to them?

You're sooooo right. None of that's being done. Time to march around DC with guns to give the Government another chance to show people that "You see? Those whackjob 'right-wing extremists' are dangerous! Thankfully we were here to save you all."

I haven't said I agree with Adams methods.........But!............I understand his frustration.

Changing the direction Washington is on with an occasional congressman and senator is akin to turning an oil-tanker with a row-boat.

I'm not noticing the change from here..

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

Stupid stunt. When some trigger happy cop or one of the unknown characters Adam is bringing along fires a shoot and a stupid gun battle results the public is going be against gun owners and we will all lose rights because of this. It is one thing to defend your home against illegal gun confiscation it is another to march on DC with loaded weapons.

That's the intent. Kokesh is an argent. That was obvious a year ago when he wasn't arrested or even questioned, for making comments about assassination on the air. If he isn't visited way before this event goes off, that would just be a continuation of it.

He's like the Cody character with his plastic block printer gun. Totally useless. Get a real machine shop. Cody said he was a Marxist on the Alex Jones show interview a month ago.

[pcosmar]

I haven't said I agree with Adams methods.........But!............I understand his frustration.

Changing the direction Washington is on with an occasional congressman and senator is akin to turning an oil-tanker with a row-boat.

I'm not noticing the change from here..


We won the last battle politically

What battle was that?
There are new magazine restrictions. More invasive and intrusive Background checks. (more prohibited persons)
Magazine, ammo and arms shortages.

What exactly did "we" win?

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

This is a very personal and serious decision. I think pcosmar's point is that you should not ridicule those who make such a serious and deliberate stand against tyranny.

It's hard to take someone whose family is eastern Europe and Jewish seriously when they have been hosted by Russian TV and pro-Israel neocon central site Worldnetdaily.

Guy is always calling for violence - like the assassination comment last year, and never gets arrested or even visited.

Most of us living in the real world know that isn't normal.

And Ron Paul wouldn't even let him in his event in Tampa last year. Speaks volumes about Kokesh.

[SkepticalMetal]

Kokesh really likes pushing it to the limit. I have no idea where he gets his nerve, perhaps it's from his Iraq experience. I have no doubt however that if this thing happens, there are going to be some heated moments. There's a lot of ways this event could go wrong.

[torchbearer]

It's hard to take someone whose family is Jewish and from eastern Europe seriously when they have been hosted by Russian TV and pro-Israel neocon central Worldnetdaily.

Guy is always calling for violence - like the assassination comment last year, and never gets arrested or even visited.

Most of us living in the matrix know that isn't normal.

fify.
been round long enough to know that the real world to me at 12, versus the real world to me at 24, versus the real world to me now are completely different things.
your world perception is made up of all the things you know about it.
maybe, just maybe, the man who was used as human fodder in iraq has more info for which to base his real world.

[SkepticalMetal]

It's hard to take someone whose family is eastern Europe and Jewish seriously when they have been hosted by Russian TV and pro-Israel neocon central site Worldnetdaily.

Guy is always calling for violence - like the assassination comment last year, and never gets arrested or even visited.

Most of us living in the real world know that isn't normal.

And Ron Paul wouldn't even let him in his event in Tampa last year. Speaks volumes about Kokesh.
I'm pretty sure the relationship between Kokesh and RT can be explained through two words: mutual enemy. And the guy has been arrested multiple times before, so it's not like he's got a free pass with the cops.

[PaulConventionWV]

First of all, if this were truly a planned armed revolution, you wouldn't give the enemy two months advance warning. They will know he is coming either way is exactly my point. He's already laid out his plans to his listeners and he has two months to talk about it on the air. The march sends a powerful message and is a great idea, all by itself. So he's got the word out, established what the march is intended to do and why they are doing it. He's also made it clear it is intended to be a non-violent event and they will not escalate any confrontation with any authorities. Tweeting the message "When the government comes to take your guns, you can shoot government agents, or submit to slavery" the next day is reckless and the government will view and now act on it as a direct threat. They're on their way to the Capitol and the White House for Christ sake. By taunting them, he just made it way too easy for them to confuse the issue, err on the side of caution, cite "national security concerns" BLAH BLAH and destroy this idea. If you're getting arrested and you are armed, the government is not "coming for your guns to enslave you" when they don't let you take your Ruger with you in the squad car. What happens when, after crossing the bridge, DC cops tell them all to remove their firearms because of these kinds of statements? If the cops were searching for any reason to prevent this, well, after that message, youjust gave it to them. The DC police would not be "coming to take their guns" in the same context as his message, but well, hmmm, they are government agents and look at that, they do want you to remove your guns.......If you hand them over, he sure did set himself up to look like an ass, and according to him, you're now accepting slavery. Or you go all Spartan on their asses with your 1000 "peaceful" protestors who agreed to a nonviolent approach to send a message? Let me know how that goes. He diluted and confused his own message.

I honestly don't think it matters. Either there will be fighting or there won't. How did the rebels in Kentucky get their men together at the start of the American revolution? I bet there was quite a bit of buzz around the town about it. You don't plan a march on Washington without them knowing about it. I have no idea what's going to happen, but I'm really not interested in keeping things kosher for the sheep anymore, so we'll see what happens. I'd be incredibly sad and probably fearful if it turned violent, but I don't rule out the idea that it may be necessary at this point to do something more than talk.

[MelissaWV]

I haven't said I agree with Adams methods.........But!............I understand his frustration.

Changing the direction Washington is on with an occasional congressman and senator is akin to turning an oil-tanker with a row-boat.

I'm not noticing the change from here..

And "marching on Washington" in this manner as more of a stunt which will likely end poorly for us all is akin to shooting at that oil-tanker with flare guns to turn it around. Largely ineffective, illogical, and a slim chance of a spectacularly harmful explosion which won't turn anything around, either.

[tod evans]

And "marching on Washington" in this manner as more of a stunt which will likely end poorly for us all is akin to shooting at that oil-tanker with flare guns to turn it around. Largely ineffective, illogical, and a slim chance of a spectacularly harmful explosion which won't turn anything around, either.

But the flare-gun might actually stop the tanker..:o

[MelissaWV]

But the flare-gun might actually stop the tanker..:o

Yes. By blowing it up. I am, incidentally, aware that there's a good portion of folks who'd love nothing more for the country... or think they do.

[pcosmar]

Ya can't even dance here anymore.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWeF6lwg4aY

:(
.

[paulbot24]

it is pretty clear, that his intentions are- when met by d.c. police at the bridge- is not to give them the guns, but to turn around and walk back knowing washington d.c. does not welcome free men. and thus, going back to the other side of the river- the free men let the government thugs know they are not welcome in the land of the free.
the bridge become a line in the sand, and walking back is taking the defensive position. at the same time keeping the quills ready to gorge any aggressor.

I like the idea. The cops will be "taking every precaution" to make him look every bit a fool now after what he said. Why ask them to just turn around now when you can tell them to lay down their arms, step away from them, and walk back to the other side of the bridge and make them wait until they decide to give them back. Cops are already pricks before you taunt them. He just gave them the perfect reason to put a polished steel toe jackboot on this great idea and don't you think they'll really play this up now?

[Anti Federalist]

Stupid stunt. When some trigger happy cop or one of the unknown characters Adam is bringing along fires a shoot and a stupid gun battle results the public is going be against gun owners and we will all lose rights because of this. It is one thing to defend your home against illegal gun confuscation it is another to march on DC with loaded weapons.

Hate to break it to you, but under the "unitary executive" and NDAA and all the rest, we've pretty much lost all our rights already.

[torchbearer]

I like the idea. The cops will be "taking every precaution" to make him look every bit a fool now after what he said. Why ask them to just turn around now when you can tell them to lay down their arms, step away from them, and walk back to the other side of the bridge and make them wait until they decide to give them back. Cops are already pricks before you taunt them. He just gave them the perfect reason to put a polished steel toe jackboot on this great idea and don't you think they'll really play this up now?

if a cop tells someone to drop their weapons-
and the person, with weapon still on their back turns around and slowly walks away-
it would be murder by the cops to shoot them in the backs.
those shots will be the shots heard around the world.

[Anti Federalist]

if a cop tells someone to drop their weapons-
and the person, with weapon still on their back turns around and slowly walks away-
it would be murder by the cops to shoot them in the backs.
those shots will be the shots heard around the world.

This...

[Ranger29860]

If this actually occurs (which I highly doubt it will) this will only lead to trouble. Do you really think have Adam as a leader for this does anyone any good? I love the guy and think he has done a lot for the movement but he is not the face you want put on this movement.

3 possible outcomes

1. They walk over the bridge and walk around D.C. with no issues. Gaining us nothing (as in no tv coverage)
2. Or they get to the bridge are told to turn around and do so (invalidating the whole purpose of it)
3. They are refused entry, try to force their way in and we have a potential shootout of a bunch of (how it will be portrayed) between cops and a bunch of gun toting red necks being led by a anti government, former soldier who has made comments about assignations and violent overtures.

[pcosmar]

if a cop tells someone to drop their weapons-
and the person, with weapon still on their back turns around and slowly walks away-
it would be murder by the cops to shoot them in the backs.
those shots will be the shots heard around the world.

And every other man or woman in that group would be 100% justified in returning fire.

The question you have to ask,, is, are the Cops really that fucking stupid?

And if the answer is yes,, then it is time to remove them from the picture.

[Ranger29860]

Yes. By blowing it up. I am, incidentally, aware that there's a good portion of folks who'd love nothing more for the country... or think they do.


Most of those people don't live in reality sadly. You think the rest of the world is gonna sit and watch the U.S. implode on itself and not intervene? Hell we have been using the excuse to invade other countries for decades. I can picture it now (from the U.N. or other organizations) we have to "peacekeep" in the U.S. because of all the loose nukes and chemical weapons.

[torchbearer]

If this actually occurs (which I highly doubt it will) this will only lead to trouble. Do you really think have Adam as a leader for this does anyone any good? I love the guy and think he has done a lot for the movement but he is not the face you want put on this movement.

3 possible outcomes

1. They walk over the bridge and walk around D.C. with no issues. Gaining us nothing (as in no tv coverage)
2. Or they get to the bridge are told to turn around and do so (invalidating the whole purpose of it)
3. They are refused entry, try to force their way in and we have a potential shootout of a bunch of (how it will be portrayed) between cops and a bunch of gun toting red necks being led by a anti government, former soldier who has made comments about assignations and violent overtures.


i've actually posted other alternatives. ones that are more likely to happen, and would have huge implications.

[SkepticalMetal]

If this actually occurs (which I highly doubt it will) this will only lead to trouble. Do you really think have Adam as a leader for this does anyone any good? I love the guy and think he has done a lot for the movement but he is not the face you want put on this movement.

3 possible outcomes

1. They walk over the bridge and walk around D.C. with no issues. Gaining us nothing (as in no tv coverage)
2. Or they get to the bridge are told to turn around and do so (invalidating the whole purpose of it)
3. They are refused entry, try to force their way in and we have a potential shootout of a bunch of (how it will be portrayed) between cops and a bunch of gun toting red necks being led by a anti government, former soldier who has made comments about assignations and violent overtures.
Yes. If the cops (and the media) play it right, they can turn this into one big anti-gun justification.

[Ranger29860]

i've actually posted other alternatives. ones that are more likely to happen, and would have huge implications.

ok so a cop shoots one of them in the back. What would happen next? Most likely a shoot out and again that is how it will be portrayed.

[Ranger29860]

Yes. If the cops (and the media) play it right, they can turn this into one big anti-gun justification.

Exactly! There is very little to gain from doing this in this way but a hell of a lot to lose on all fronts of the liberty movement.

[torchbearer]

ok so a cop shoots one of them in the back. What would happen next? Most likely a shoot out and again that is how it will be portrayed.


the truth would be murder.
but i don't think the cops will shoot if the guys are walking back to virginia.
imagine the people, with their meager weapons- walking to their supposed government. armed as free men. then turned away.
the government has declared them as unworthy, and the free man declares that government unworthy.
i see brilliance where others are shitting their pants.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL4lSavSepc

[Ranger29860]

the truth would be murder.
but i don't think the cops will shoot if the guys are walking back to virginia.
imagine the people, with their meager weapons- walking to their supposed government. armed as free men. then turned away.
the government has declared them as unworthy, and the free man declares that government unworthy.
i see brilliance where others are shitting their pants.



But you can get the same message across a ton of different ways. Have them walking in smoking a joint or carrying gun magazines that are illegal. No need for a loaded weapon in this case. That only adds to the potential of someone on either side losing it and making a mistake that effects us much more than the symbolism would have.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

your world perception is made up of all the things you know about it.
maybe, just maybe, the man who was used as human fodder in iraq has more info for which to base his real world.

Looking online for the links to the above biography - which I have now on hand, in case anyone questioned it, I discovered his military record papers, which show Kokesh never served in combat in Iraq. It's made up.

Another indication he's exactly what he appears to be. An agent provocateur.

[paulbot24]

Is somebody who has called for assassination on his show and explained when it is the appropriate time to gun down government officials the right person to lead this nonviolent act of civil disobedience? If they all showed up carrying nothing but hot pink water pistols, it doesn't matter now. The officers will be totally hostile to him and take it out on his group of people that agreed to a nonviolent protest. At first he sounded brilliant. After the last message he sounds confused about what he is aiming to accomplish.

[torchbearer]

But you can get the same message across a ton of different ways. Have them walking in smoking a joint or carrying gun magazines that are illegal. No need for a loaded weapon in this case. That only adds to the potential of someone on either side losing it and making a mistake that effects us much more than the symbolism would have.

I'm not disagreeing with you.
I won't be marching with them- and that is because i would be their for vengeance. so, i stay away.
I respect what he is doing. anyone going with him, goes voluntarily.

there are many other things we can be doing... and we can be doing those things- while he is doing his thing.
this is why its hard to contain liberty. we are cats. rand has his path, ron has his path. i have mine. you have yours... and on this journey- we meet up with other cats from time to time to get political stuff done.

[pcosmar]

But you can get the same message across a ton of different ways. Have them walking in smoking a joint or carrying gun magazines that are illegal. No need for a loaded weapon in this case. That only adds to the potential of someone on either side losing it and making a mistake that effects us much more than the symbolism would have.

And how would they defend themselves against an outright attack?

Carrying an unloaded gun is just plain stupid.. Carrying a loaded one is a Right.

[torchbearer]

Looking online for the links to the above biography - which I have now on hand, in case anyone questioned it, I discovered his military record papers, which show Kokesh never served in combat in Iraq. It's made up.

Another indication he's exactly what he appears to be. An agent provocateur.


I didn't say he was in combat. it is enough to be used as fodder in an action of aggression.
a lil' paranoia is healthy. a whole bunch of paranoia will leave you unable to function.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

I'm pretty sure the relationship between Kokesh and RT can be explained through two words: mutual enemy. And the guy has been arrested multiple times before, so it's not like he's got a free pass with the cops.

When I just saw an article a few days ago about an unknown high school student facing 20 years in jail for making comments on his facebook page, and I see the same thing happening constantly - I want to know what a broadcaster like Kokesh is doing that everyone else isn't.

I can pull, fyi, examples of broadcasters for old new articles who were doing exactly what Kokesh was doing, and were working for the FBI. I'm lazy, but some of you are just too young to have learned. It happens this way and they do it again and again.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

I didn't say he was in combat. it is enough to be used as fodder in an action of aggression.
a lil' paranoia is healthy. a whole bunch of paranoia will leave you unable to function.

He doesn't even have the decorations you get for serving in Iraq at all.

He's government all right, but not as you know it.

[torchbearer]

When I just saw an article a few days ago about an unknown high school student facing 20 years in jail for making comments on his facebook page, and I see the same thing happening constantly - I want to know what a broadcaster like Kokesh is doing that everyone else isn't.

I can pull, fyi, examples of broadcasters for old new articles who were doing exactly what Kokesh was doing, and were working for the FBI. I'm lazy, but some of you are just too young to have learned. It happens this way and they do it again and again.


why don't they arrest judge napolitano or ron paul for the things they say?
when you become high profile, its harder to make you just go away.
arresting people for seditious writing on fedbook serves one purpose. to drive fear into that person. to neutralize them.
its like whipping the slaves.

[torchbearer]

He doesn't even have the decorations you get for serving in Iraq at all.

He's government all right, but not as you know it.

you are an agent provocateur sent here to sow seeds of discontent.
see how that works.
your own post are evident of this fact.

[torchbearer]

hell, adam and I were sitting side by side in minnesota during the training sessions at the rally for the republic. i must be another government agent.

[pcosmar]

He doesn't even have the decorations you get for serving in Iraq at all.

He's government all right, but not as you know it.

Actually he did.. But don't let that get in the way of slander.

[Ranger29860]

He doesn't even have the decorations you get for serving in Iraq at all.

He's government all right, but not as you know it.

The Iraq service medal was discontinued a few years back (not sure of the exact date but he could have gone and not gotten it, it was different for different units)

Also I think I found the one you are talking about http://americanpatriotsagainstkokesh.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/kokesh-dd214.jpg

and that is not a complete dd-214 . A lot of it has been cut off and there are some weird things going on with it. Ill upload mine to show you what I mean.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

why don't they arrest judge napolitano or ron paul for the things they say?
es.

Neither of those people called for assassination on the air. Nor are they calling for an armed march on DC. And Ron Paul banned Kokesh from his event in Tampa.

[torchbearer]

Neither of those people called for assassination on the air. Nor are they calling for an armed march on DC. And Ron Paul banned Kokesh from his event in Tampa.

I have said worse on this forum. i'm sure this place is monitored. i'm not arrested. therefore, i'm a government agent.

no, you are the agent. just as much of an agent as kokesh.

instead of just disagreeing with the guy, you have to create false witness.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

Actually he did.. But don't let that get in the way of slander.

I'm not slandering Kokesh. I believe he's exactly what I'm saying.

Not only can I pull up endless articles of examples of this, I've personally known people like this in my own life. Several times. This is how our society is. It is how the soviet union was. It's how the gestapo works. It's how it works.

[CCTelander]

Hate to break it to you, but under the "unitary executive" and NDAA and all the rest, we've pretty much lost all our rights already.


Sure, but there's another election cycle coming around in 2014, and THIS TIME it Really will be different! /s

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

instead of just disagreeing with the guy, you have to create false witness.

I'm not interesting in arguing.

I'll keep posting to make sure you don't send anyone to jail. But you, I have no reason to be here for you.

[pcosmar]

Neither of those people called for assassination on the air. Nor are they calling for an armed march on DC. And Ron Paul banned Kokesh from his event in Tampa.
No he did not,,

A Staffer banned him.. A Staffer that have their own questionable motives.
It was much discussed.

[torchbearer]

I actually have spoken with the man. the guy creating false witness against adam is talking shit out of his ass.
he is trollin' and trollers are going to be trolling.

[torchbearer]

I'm not interesting in arguing.

I'll keep posting to make sure you don't send anyone to jail. But you, I have no reason to be here for you.

yes, because i control the actions of others. you need to get out the big pharma meds- you have lost it.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

you are an agent provocateur sent here to sow seeds of discontent.
see how that works. your own post are evident of this fact.

All very funny, but I've posted about 5 links now. So I'm using facts.

Two, I am not calling for assassiating anyone, or an armed march on Washington DC. Hello. Wake Up.

Three, I'm siding with Ron Paul, who banned the guy. This is the Ron Paul forums, right?

[torchbearer]

I don't endorse Adam, but I won't let someone get away with making up shit about him. He is a true believer in what he says- we disagree at certain points- but i won't make up shit about him just because we may disagree on some things.

[torchbearer]

All very funny, but I've posted about 5 links now. So I'm using facts.

Two, I am not calling for assassiating anyone, or an armed march on Washington DC. Hello. Wake Up.

Three, I'm siding with Ron Paul, who banned the guy. This is the Ron Paul forums, right?

you have made up two facts-
adam is an agent.
ron banned him.

spreading false witness about people could be seen as an act of aggression.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

yes, because i control the actions of others. you need to get out the big pharma meds- you have lost it.

Whenever they start resorting to insults, instead of using reason and facts, you know they lost the disinfo war.

1) Kokesh was banned by Ron Paul.
2) Kokesh called for assassination last year.
3) His family is eastern european and jewish. Heck, he's father owns a race track, he's maybe even mob.
4) He worked for Russian TV and Worldnetdaily
5) He's worked with other marxists - look it up
etc etc etc

Those all are facts.

If you want to get shot at or arrested, I'd at least pick a better person to go down with.

[Ranger29860]

I'm not slandering Kokesh. I believe he's exactly what I'm saying.

Not only can I pull up endless articles of examples of this, I've personally known people like this in my own life. Several times. This is how our society is. It is how the soviet union was. It's how the gestapo works. It's how it works.

Mine
Adams (supposedly)
http://americanpatriotsagainstkokesh.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/kokesh-dd214.jpg

He has no school training which he would have had to have. He should have gotten quite a few just from joining in 2005, Not to mention the shading is different (might be a times thing). This is either an incomplete one or a fake.

[torchbearer]

Whenever they start resorting to insults, instead of using reason and facts, you know they lost the disinfo war.

1) Kokesh was banned by Ron Paul.
2) Kokesh called for assassination last year.
3) His family is eastern european and jewish. Heck, he's father owns a race track, he maybe even mob.
4) He worked for Russian TV and Worldnetdaily
5) He's worked with other marxists - look it up
etc etc etc

Those all are facts.

If you want to get shot at or arrested, I'd at least pick a better person to go down with.

http://www.lineleoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/make-shit-up.jpg


See. all the lines connect. i know everything.

[pcosmar]

/B]

Three, I'm siding with Ron Paul, who banned the guy. This is the Ron Paul forums, right?

Got a quote on that?
Ron did not ban anyone.. That ain't Ron.

You are so full of shit it stinks digitally.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

ron banned him. spreading false witness about people could be seen as an act of aggression.

First - you're a coward. That's a threat, and I have no problem reporting it if you go on with it.

Two - It's well known that Ron Paul banned him, so you're just a liar, and a known one for any Ron Paul supporter. I was in Tampa.

http://www.dailypaul.com/250939/adam-kokesh-officially-not-welcome-sun-dome

[torchbearer]

First - you're a coward. That's a threat, and I have no problem reporting it if you go on with it.

Two - It's well known that Ron Paul banned him, so you're just a liar, and a known one for any Ron Paul supporter. I was in Tampa.

http://www.dailypaul.com/250939/adam-kokesh-officially-not-welcome-sun-dome

Is J4 like your government paycheck rank?

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

Got a quote on that?
Ron did not ban anyone.. That ain't Ron.
You are so full of shit it stinks digitally.

Neither of you were even in Tampa. Why do you spend all your time on the forums?

http://www.dailypaul.com/250939/adam-kokesh-officially-not-welcome-sun-dome

[jclay2]

Making a decision because ron paul said so is hilarious. I respect the guy, but I for one can make my own decisions (even though your statement is blatantly false as there is no direct quote of ron banning him).

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

http://iroots.org/wp-content/uploads/adam-not-copy1.jpg

http://iroots.org/2012/08/25/adam-kokesh-not-welcome-at-ron-paul-rally/

[torchbearer]

Neither of you were even in Tampa. Why do you spend all your time on the forums?

http://www.dailypaul.com/250939/adam-kokesh-officially-not-welcome-sun-dome


the only reason i wasn't in tampa was because i was contributing to send a friend.
i was part of the core of activist to help win this state for ron. so go fuck yourself. you don't know me, you don't know adam. you are talking shit about people you don't know. you are a fucking troll.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

So Uhm, I didn't get to call the police in Florida. But now I wish I had!

[pcosmar]

Neither of you were even in Tampa. Why do you spend all your time on the forums?



I know he was banned.. It just was NOT Ron Paul that did it.

It was a staffer that made a lot of really bad decisions.

[pcosmar]

So Uhm, I didn't get to call the police in Florida. But now I wish I had!

I am sure you do.
You seem like a nice little toady.

[klamath]

The thing people conviently forget about Adam is he TRIED to go back to Iraq but got barred because he busted the general order that you don't smuggle arms out of the country. He likes the violence but he couldn't get it in the Marines anymore so he trying to stir it at home.
The fact that he was nothing other than a public affairs POG is shown by the fact he is recruiting people he has absolutely no clue what their mental state or intensions will be, to go into a combat situation. Take any thousand people that think it is a good move to take loaded weapons to the nation's capital and there is bound to be some real nut jobs in the ranks itching for their moment of glory.

[jclay2]

I for one want to see this happen. Why? Because it will truly show the nature of the oligarchs that control us. A peaceful demonstration has been announced with clear intentions of non violence. This will be good because people will be able to see the "peaceful" response that comes from the feds. Obviously, I don't think there will be bloodshed of any kind, but people might start thinking when they see a group of 1000 peaceful gun toting protesters met with tanks/helicopters/etc.

[torchbearer]

I for one want to see this happen. Why? Because it will truly show the nature of the oligarchs that control us. A peaceful demonstration has been announced with clear intentions of non violence. This will be good because people will be able to see the "peaceful" response that comes from the feds. Obviously, I don't think there will be bloodshed of any kind, but people might start thinking when they see a group of 1000 peaceful gun toting protesters met with tanks/helicopters/etc.


it is a bold proposition.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

The thing people conviently forget about Adam is he TRIED to go back to Iraq but got barred because he busted the general order that you don't smuggle arms out of the country. He likes the violence but he couldn't get it in the Marines anymore so he trying to stir it at home.
The fact that he was nothing other than a public affairs POG is shown by the fact he is recruiting people he has absolutely no clue what their mental state or intensions will be, to go into a combat situation. Take any thousand people that think it is a good move to take loaded weapons to the nation's capital and there is bound to be some real nut jobs in the ranks itching for their moment of glory.

Sadly, the two most vocal supporters on this thread won't be there with Kokesh for his armed moment of glory and/or helping the cops to arrest his own supporters.

Make no mistake about it - I'm all for *you* going.

[jclay2]

The thing people conviently forget about Adam is he TRIED to go back to Iraq but got barred because he busted the general order that you don't smuggle arms out of the country. He likes the violence but he couldn't get it in the Marines anymore so he trying to stir it at home.
The fact that he was nothing other than a public affairs POG is shown by the fact he is recruiting people he has absolutely no clue what their mental state or intensions will be, to go into a combat situation. Take any thousand people that think it is a good move to take loaded weapons to the nation's capital and there is bound to be some real nut jobs in the ranks itching for their moment of glory.


omg omg...Loaded weapons...someone call the police. We are not safe until they are stopped and thrown in prison/eradicated. Seriously, thoughts like these are part of the problem. I for one am a hell of lot more scared of going on the highway then walking by a group of armed individuals. Arms should be normal in our society. Why do you carry such a heavy stigma that loaded guns is equivalent to wanting to start black hawk down outside the white house?

[pcosmar]

I for one want to see this happen. Why? Because it will truly show the nature of the oligarchs that control us. A peaceful demonstration has been announced with clear intentions of non violence. This will be good because people will be able to see the "peaceful" response that comes from the feds. Obviously, I don't think there will be bloodshed of any kind, but people might start thinking when they see a group of 1000 peaceful gun toting protesters met with tanks/helicopters/etc.

When have TPTB ever responded to protests peacefully?

I have seen violence initiated BY the government more often than not.
At least armed protesters would have something close to a "fair fight".

[cajuncocoa]

For God's sake, people. What's the use of having rights if we're too damned chickenshit to exercise them? (So much for "home of the brave")

I get the feeling that some people here would have tried to talk Rosa Parks out of sitting down in the front of that bus (but she'll get arrested!! Let's wait until we elect enough Congressmen!!)

Thank God for people who are brave enough to do something pro-active to preserve our freedoms.

Kudos to Adam Kokesh!

[Ranger29860]

For God's sake, people. What's the use of having rights if we're too damned chickenshit to exercise them? (So much for "home of the brave")

I get the feeling that people here would have tried to talk Rosa Parks out of sitting down in the front of that bus (but she'll get arrested!!)

Thank God for people who are brave enough to do something pro-active to preserve our freedoms.

Kudos to Adam Kokesh!

So your going?

[MelissaWV]

For God's sake, people. What's the use of having rights if we're too damned chickenshit to exercise them? (So much for "home of the brave")

I get the feeling that people here would have tried to talk Rosa Parks out of sitting down in the front of that bus (but she'll get arrested!!)

Thank God for people who are brave enough to do something pro-active to preserve our freedoms.

Kudos to Adam Kokesh!

She didn't sit at the front of the bus.

They're marching to a border, and if the cops stop them, they're going to turn around and leave. The coverage this will get is miniscule, unless of course it can be twisted around to become a rallying cry for more cops.

[cajuncocoa]

So your going?
I doubt it, but I certainly respect Adam for organizing it. And I certainly wouldn't talk him out of doing that.

[jclay2]

For God's sake, people. What's the use of having rights if we're too damned chickenshit to exercise them? (So much for "home of the brave")

I get the feeling that some people here would have tried to talk Rosa Parks out of sitting down in the front of that bus (but she'll get arrested!! Let's wait until we elect enough Congressmen!!)

Thank God for people who are brave enough to do something pro-active to preserve our freedoms.

Kudos to Adam Kokesh!

This. At the least we should be able to get people to support him and march unarmed.

[cajuncocoa]

She didn't sit at the front of the bus.

They're marching to a border, and if the cops stop them, they're going to turn around and leave. The coverage this will get is miniscule, unless of course it can be twisted around to become a rallying cry for more cops.By all means, let's nit-pick about the accuracy of where exactly she sat.

[fr33]

So Uhm, I didn't get to call the police in Florida. But now I wish I had!

You are an untrustworthy snitch.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

So your going?

The two most vocal supporters of Kokesh on this thread didn't even go to Tampa, which was peaceful.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

You are an untrustworthy snitch.

If someone breaks into my house, I'm not being a snitch to call the police. That's the real purpose of government.

But for you all who says it isn't. PLEASE go to Washington DC.

I'm not here trying to convince you not to get shot or arrest. You deserve what you want.

I'm just preventing you from suckering in anyone who doesn't know better, to go someplace you aren't intending on going to anyway.

[cajuncocoa]

The two most vocal supporters of Kokesh on this thread didn't even go to Tampa, which was peaceful.
So?

[klamath]

Sadly, the two most vocal supporters on this thread won't be there with Kokesh for his armed moment of glory and/or helping the cops to arrest his own supporters.

Make no mistake about it - I'm all for *you* going.
Good point. I have seen the gungho brave talkers before going to battle run like fucking panicked chickens when one morter round lands a hundred yards away. I don't say Adam doesn't have personal bravery but personal bravery doesn't automatically gain my respect if what they are brave about is going to cause hell for everyone else.

[torchbearer]

If someone breaks into my house, I'm not being a snitch to call the police. That's the real purpose of government.

But for you all who says it isn't. PLEASE go to Washington DC.

I'm not here trying to convince you not to get shot or arrest. You deserve what you want.

I'm just preventing you from suckering in anyone who doesn't know better, to go someplace you aren't intending on going to anyway.

now, adam is threatening to break into your house.
you are a douche.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

So maybe those two vocal supporters should make up for Tampa by going to Kokesh armed march.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

now, adam is threatening to break into your house.
you are a douche.

Ron Paul was fully justified in having his security team pass out flyers to arrest Kokesh if he showed up at Ron Paul's rally.

Yes, it would have been tresspass. Deal with it.

[pcosmar]

The two most vocal supporters of Kokesh on this thread didn't even go to Tampa, which was peaceful.

And for all intents and purposes ,,pointless.
TPTB even prevented the delegates for having any significant impact on what was a predetermined event.

Yes,, I was watching it unfold. Quite disappointing,, on several levels.

[torchbearer]

So maybe those two vocal supporters should make up for Tampa by going to Kokesh armed march.

make up for tampa?
i was part of the reason, any of our guys got to tampa. i spent hours, and every dime i had winning this state for ron.
somehow, you had the financial privilege to make the trip, and that makes you superior- and "we" have to make up for that to you?
fuck off.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

So torch, you're not going to Washington DC either?

If you are so vocal about others doing it, you ought to go.

I participate in the things I'm vocal about.

[torchbearer]

So torch, you're not going to Washington DC either?

If you are so vocal about others doing it, you ought to go.

I participate in the things I'm vocal about.

I actually posted why I wasn't going in this very thread.
Shows how much you've actually been reading, and how much you been trolling.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

If someone breaks into my house, I'm not being a snitch to call the police. That's the real purpose of government.


The real purpose of government is breaking into your house? That's what they seem to think.

If some random dipshit breaks into your house, you better deal with it faster than police will get there. Otherwise, you're toast. Even when the police get there, they'll probably be pointing more guns at you than the average intruder would.

[pcosmar]

If someone breaks into my house, I'm not being a snitch to call the police. That's the real purpose of government.


:eek:

smh

This is the sad state of things.. :(

[CCTelander]

The real purpose of government is breaking into your house? That's what they seem to think.

If some random dipshit breaks into your house, you better deal with it faster than police will get there. Otherwise, you're toast. Even when the police get there, they'll probably be pointing more guns at you than the average intruder would.


When seconds count the police are only MINUTES away.

[fr33]

If someone breaks into my house, I'm not being a snitch to call the police. That's the real purpose of government.

But for you all who says it isn't. PLEASE go to Washington DC.

I'm not here trying to convince you not to get shot or arrest. You deserve what you want.

I'm just preventing you from suckering in anyone who doesn't know better, to go someplace you aren't intending on going to anyway.
Well if your going to change the scenario up from what you originally posted... :rolleyes:

[silverhandorder]

I wouldn't do what Adam is doing. That is mostly because I rather go along with the regime then to risk getting thrown in jail or my life being ruined. However there is nothing wrong with what he is doing. I do not think he is unhinged.

[jclay2]

I wouldn't do what Adam is doing. That is mostly because I rather go along with the regime then to risk getting thrown in jail or my life being ruined. However there is nothing wrong with what he is doing. I do not think he is unhinged.

To be truthful. If I were in DC, I would be marching with him unarmed for the reasons you cited. I am not quite to the point yet where I can risk my family's security for my personal beliefs.

[Anti Federalist]

/thread AFAIC



For God's sake, people. What's the use of having rights if we're too damned chickenshit to exercise them? (So much for "home of the brave")

I get the feeling that some people here would have tried to talk Rosa Parks out of sitting down in the front of that bus (but she'll get arrested!! Let's wait until we elect enough Congressmen!!)

Thank God for people who are brave enough to do something pro-active to preserve our freedoms.

Kudos to Adam Kokesh!

[angelatc]

Seeing so many people worrying about not getting in trouble makes me really want to go.

[Anti Federalist]

She didn't sit at the front of the bus.

They're marching to a border, and if the cops stop them, they're going to turn around and leave. The coverage this will get is miniscule, unless of course it can be twisted around to become a rallying cry for more cops.

Convince me every normal day in AmeriKa is not a rallying cry for more cops.

[pcosmar]

To be truthful. If I were in DC, I would be marching with him unarmed for the reasons you cited. I am not quite to the point yet where I can risk my family's security for my personal beliefs.

at least that seems to be honesty,, and I can respect that.

I will not go because my presence would be used against the whole crowd.
The same reason I kept myself separated from Ron's Campaign.

[Anti Federalist]

Seeing so many people worrying about not getting in trouble makes me really want to go.

Myself...

Shit, I haven't been arrested in a while, and since we're all heading to prison anyways, why the hell not?

[pcosmar]

Seeing so many people worrying about not getting in trouble makes me really want to go.

:D

When trouble comes,, I will meet it.. I do not invite it. and I don't go looking for it.

[RM918]

Getting arrested is one thing, but if Adam's tweet means that he or anyone else intends to fire on a cop if they try to confiscate someone's weapons we can bandy about all day long about how the 2nd amendment means the cops are performing an illegal action but absolutely no-one else will accept that. It's going to end up a tragedy for absolutely everyone involved if that happens and will be exactly what will be needed to have constitutionalists dismissed as dangerous whackjobs by the public.

If the cops fire first with no provocation, that's one thing (though it'd still be spun negatively and wouldn't be much better), but if violence erupts it'll be seen as the protestor's fault, right or wrong.

[angelatc]

The two most vocal supporters of Kokesh on this thread didn't even go to Tampa, which was peaceful.

*snort*

Yeah, peace. That's what we're all here after. I mean, it would be nice to have rights, but as long as we sit quietly and don't draw attention to ourselves....that'll be ok, right?

Jesse Benton is a prick and a bully. If you're a fan of his methods, then you're a much different kind of freedom lover than most of us are.

[angelatc]

Myself...

Shit, I haven't been arrested in a while, and since we're all heading to prison anyways, why the hell not?


I haven't had the pleasure. I'm starting to look like a slacker.

Shoot - how can I ever get to be a professor at a prestigious college if I don't have a record of some sort?


ETA: I'd more far more likely to go to jail for contempt of cop than illegally possessing a firearm. I have a smart mouth and trouble with authority.

[paulbot24]

If he starts his march in the state of Virginia, where open carry is legal, and attempts to cross into DC, a federal district where open carry is not legal, what is he proving other than ignorance of the local laws? The DC cops are simply doing their jobs when they stop them, same as they would anybody else on any other day. He knows that the DC cops have the obligation to enforce their federal district laws, just as the states do. The cops are not turning away "free people" when they do, they are just turning away people who are insisting on openly carrying in a district that forbids it. To loudly test them on this and then try to paint them as tyrants and saying their actions speak for not just all politicians in Washington D.C., but the entire federal government because they are federal district cops is a weak argument.

[torchbearer]

If he starts his march in the state of Virginia, where open carry is legal, and attempts to cross into DC, a federal district where open carry is not legal, what is he proving other than ignorance of the local laws? The DC cops are simply doing their jobs when they stop them, same as they would anybody else on any other day. He knows that the DC cops have the obligation to enforce their federal district laws, just as the states do. The cops are not turning away "free people" when they do, they are just turning away people who are insisting on openly carrying in a district that forbids it. To loudly test them on this and then try to paint them as tyrants and saying their actions speak for not just all politicians in Washington D.C., but the entire federal government because they are federal district cops is a weak argument.

the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to D.C.?
you'd think of all places on this planet where it does apply, is in D.C.


the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

It doesn't look like the authors were being ambiguous.

[pcosmar]

If the cops fire first with no provocation, that's one thing (though it'd still be spun negatively and wouldn't be much better), but if violence erupts it'll be seen as the protestor's fault, right or wrong.

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/11/21/occupy_pepper_spray_AP111118053177_fullwidth_620x3 50.jpg

It is usually painted that way.

[angelatc]

If he starts his march in the state of Virginia, where open carry is legal, and attempts to cross into DC, a federal district where open carry is not legal, what is he proving other than ignorance of the local laws? The DC cops are simply doing their jobs when they stop them, same as they would anybody else on any other day. He knows that the DC cops have the obligation to enforce their federal district laws, just as the states do. The cops are not turning away "free people" when they do, they are just turning away people who are insisting on openly carrying in a district that forbids it. To loudly test them on this and then try to paint them as tyrants and saying their actions speak for not just all politicians in Washington D.C., but the entire federal government because they are federal district cops is a weak argument.


Trying to paint them as tyrants? "​shall not be infringed..."

[jmdrake]

He started an anti-government radio show as the Tea Party picked up steam and was eventually picked up by RT, the news channel funded by the Russian government that is often critical of U.S. policy, where he promoted both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street in a worldview that some sociologists describe as “fusion paranoia,” a visceral anti-governmentalism that isn’t limited to typical left-right divides.

LOL. "Fusion paranoia". WTH? So now there's an official name for those of us who refuse to buy into the fake left/right paradigm?

[torchbearer]

He started an anti-government radio show as the Tea Party picked up steam and was eventually picked up by RT, the news channel funded by the Russian government that is often critical of U.S. policy, where he promoted both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street in a worldview that some sociologists describe as “fusion paranoia,” a visceral anti-governmentalism that isn’t limited to typical left-right divides.

LOL. "Fusion paranoia". WTH? So now there's an official name for those of us who refuse to buy into the fake left/right paradigm?


i'm sure there is more details in the SPLC/DHS reports that go to law enforcement.

[jmdrake]

i'm sure there is more details in the SPLC/DHS reports that go to law enforcement.

Is that why they're called "fusion centers? Because they're designed to deal with the "fusion paranoid"? Who writes this stuff? Someone from a comic book?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/KclCmdr/Motivator/FusionMan01.jpg

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

To be truthful. If I were in DC, I would be marching with him unarmed for the reasons you cited. I am not quite to the point yet where I can risk my family's security for my personal beliefs.


If you're in the vicinity of the "riot," they'll be shooting you anyway. They don't care about you or your family in the slightest bit. You'd just be shot in the back instead. I don't mean any disrespect, but you're trying to predict the behavior of people who are willing to kill you, armed or not. They won't look or ask.

[paulbot24]

Trying to paint them as tyrants? "​shall not be infringed..."

I understand that and completely agree. However, how is any of this any different than state law? Many states do not allow open carry, just like the federal district of DC. If I come from an open-carry all is good state like Arizona, and I knowingly enter another state that does not allow open carry, or one that requires a concealed permit which we don't have in Arizona, etc....and I choose to disregard the local law and basically just pretend I am still in Arizona, is it tyranny when a cop in that state treats me to a citation? What if I say "I'm from Arizona, where we don't need those." Yeah, I wish. "Well you're not in Arizona now, and here you do need those" is what I would expect to hear. They didn't even have the right to own handguns in DC until the SCOTUS ruling in 2008 and since then, they've never had the right to openly carry any firearms. Adam knows this just as much as he knows they can and will enforce their open carry laws, just as the states do (especially on him). When this happens, it is not a personal "Dear Adam, free people are not welcome here" Yours Truly, The Entire Federal Government, just because it happens in DC. How is this anything other than a local sovereignty issue? I mean, we could say screw state sovereignty, it's too complicated, and let the feds give us a national law because that always works out so well......

[phill4paul]

I understand that and completely agree. However, how is any of this any different than state law? Many states do not allow open carry, just like the federal district of DC. If I come from an open-carry all is good state like Arizona, and I knowingly enter another state that does not allow open carry, or one that requires a concealed permit which we don't have in Arizona, etc....and I choose to disregard the local law and basically just pretend I am still in Arizona, is it tyranny when a cop in that state treats me to a citation? What if I say "I'm from Arizona, where we don't need those." Yeah, I wish. "Well you're not in Arizona now, and here you do need those" is what I would expect to hear. They didn't even have the right to own handguns in DC until the SCOTUS ruling in 2008 and since then, they've never had the right to openly carry any firearms. Adam knows this just as much as he knows they can and will enforce their open carry laws, just as the states do (especially on him). When this happens, it is not a personal "Dear Adam, free people are not welcome here" Yours Truly, The Entire Federal Government, just because it happens in DC. How is this anything other than a local sovereignty issue? I mean, we could say screw state sovereignty, it's too complicated, and let the feds give us a national law because that always works out so well......

I suppose it comes down to whether the 'supremacy clause' makes federal law the supreme law of the land. If one believes so then "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

[pcosmar]

I suppose it comes down to whether the 'supremacy clause' makes federal law the supreme law of the land. If one believes so then "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It actually has nothing to do with the "supremacy clause".
Each and every state ratified the Constitution "as written" and as the "Law of the Land".

They are bound by the bill of rights. and some of that was written specifically to the local levels.




In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence

That in particular has NOTHING to do with the Fedgov.. That is distinctly state and local.

The Bill of Rights applies to all.

[phill4paul]

One thing that should have been bolded in the OP that I think should be noted...


Should we meet physical resistance, we will peacefully turn back, having shown that free people are not welcome in Washington

[phill4paul]

It actually has nothing to do with the "supremacy clause".
Each and every state ratified the Constitution "as written" and as the "Law of the Land".

They are bound by the bill of rights. and some of that was written specifically to the local levels.



That in particular has NOTHING to do with the Fedgov.. That is distinctly state and local.

The Bill of Rights applies to all.

Quite right. I do agree. I was just pointing out the discrepancy. For instance if a state were to create a law limiting the freedom of the press to print ONLY anti government media, or only anti-gay media or etc. etc. etc. then the fed would be all over it.

[TaftFan]

Did Heller address open carry or not?

[pcosmar]

Did Heller address open carry or not?

Is that relevant?

[TaftFan]

Is that relevant?

Yes, because it relates to D.C. gun laws. I'm curious as to whether they upheld it or it wasn't ruled on.

[pcosmar]

Yes, because it relates to D.C. gun laws. I'm curious as to whether they upheld it or it wasn't ruled on.

D.C. gun laws?

I think you are grossly missing the point.

the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

[TaftFan]

D.C. gun laws?

I think you are grossly missing the point.

the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
No, I am definitely not missing the point. I understand the 2nd completely.

I will be mindful not to ask questions in threads where you are participating.

[pcosmar]

No, I am definitely not missing the point. I understand the 2nd completely.

I will be mindful not to ask questions in threads where you are participating.

If you "understand the 2nd completely" you will know that whatever laws or ordinances are enacted in D.C. or any other locality are completely unconstitutional on their face. and are therefore NO LAW.

hence irrelevant.

[moreliberty]

Your missing the point still. It's not a states right issue. The 2nd amendment does not say local governments can infringe, it says no one shall infringe.

[TaftFan]

If you "understand the 2nd completely" you will know that whatever laws or ordinances are enacted in D.C. or any other locality are completely unconstitutional on their face. and are therefore NO LAW.

hence irrelevant.

I never said D.C. gun laws are constitutional or correct.

Geeze.

If you don't want discussion relating to the subject, however, you don't have to respond.

[Christian Liberty]

I get TaftFan's point, actually. For all our disagreements, I think all of us know that gun laws are constitutionally BS. Even in my younger days when I made the exception for ex-felons (I don't anymore, BTW) I still always had the nagging feeling that such laws were constitutionally dubious.

That said, much like the "Soveregn Citizens" thing, the government really doesn't care what the constitution, or the tradition of the Founding Fathers, say. They should, but the bottom line is, they don't, and they have the power to use brutal, naked force. Should you shoot back, and should I become President someday (Which I won't) I will gladly pardon you for breaking the BS "Law" and defending yourself in doing so. TaftFan would likely do the same. In the real world, however, these men are going to use force against you, and it will be declared "Legal", even though it really isn't.

They do, on the other hand, somewhat care what SCOTUS says. Again, I don't think they SHOULD, but they do. So asking what Heller v DC said is still relevant. Not because it SHOULD be, but because the armed enforcers will care more about what that case says than about what the constitution says.


As for Kokesh, go Kokesh! I'll be rooting for you from the Democratic People's Republic (of NY.)

[pcosmar]

I never said D.C. gun laws are constitutional or correct.

Geeze.

If you don't want discussion relating to the subject, however, you don't have to respond.

No,, you asked,

Did Heller address open carry or not?

To which I responded "irrelevant".

SCOTUS should have stricken the NFA of 1934 and all gun laws written since. They did not.
And it has no relevance with regard to a protest of unconstitutional laws.


and BTW, I am a 'Prohibited Person",, and the 2nd amendment was my "single issue"/"hot button" that got me started here.
until you find yourself disarmed by law,, you will not understand the 2nd amendment completely.

[klamath]

Getting arrested is one thing, but if Adam's tweet means that he or anyone else intends to fire on a cop if they try to confiscate someone's weapons we can bandy about all day long about how the 2nd amendment means the cops are performing an illegal action but absolutely no-one else will accept that. It's going to end up a tragedy for absolutely everyone involved if that happens and will be exactly what will be needed to have constitutionalists dismissed as dangerous whackjobs by the public.

If the cops fire first with no provocation, that's one thing (though it'd still be spun negatively and wouldn't be much better), but if violence erupts it'll be seen as the protestor's fault, right or wrong.
When the cops got to a private persons place and try and confiscate guns and the people die like waco and ruby ridge the public turns a the government hard. It is why the gun grabbers in washington have been fairly quiet for the last 15 20 years. Even Obama though he dearly wanted to, wouldn't touch gun control in his campaigns. When a bunch of guys with loaded weapons march on washington the public opinion reversal is going to be exactly opposite of waco and ruby ridge. It will be 15 or 20 years of smooth sailing gun control laws with the backing of the public. Even if the cops shoot first the general public is going to say these guys were just looking for a fight.

[pcosmar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army


Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, one of the most popular military figures of the time, visited their camp to back the effort and encourage them.[1] On July 28, U.S. Attorney General William D. Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two veterans were wounded and later died. Veterans were also shot dead at other locations during the demonstration. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the army to clear the veterans' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded the infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned.

That is what happens if you are unarmed.

[anaconda]

What I wonder is if Adam has already broken many laws by trying to plan something that is illegal? Could the feds simply scoop him up now?

[PSYOP]

Kokesh does more harm then good imo. He's well intended, but that's it really. This event will backfire.

[Christian Liberty]

What I wonder is if Adam has already broken many laws by trying to plan something that is illegal? Could the feds simply scoop him up now?

This is the kind of reason why I'm very hesitant to give the government ANY leeway AT ALL when it comes to "Threats." This is the kind of reason why I seriously question the idea that a random person who "Threatens the President" (I'm assuming for the sake of argument that the President isn't a capital criminal who has killed innocent people and who deserves to be killed anyway, because of course that would never happen in a thousand years)or something on the internet should face ANY kind of criminal charges. I get that technically, traditional libertarian theory does consider threatening to violate the NAP as being a violation of the NAP itself, but I don't necessarily know if I'd apply that in every situation equally.

[Badger Paul]

Hey, I wonder is Rand going to be there?

[Christian Liberty]

Hey, I wonder is Rand going to be there?

He can't. I just hope Rand is willing to pardon Kokesh once he gets in if it comes to that.

[pcosmar]

Kokesh does more harm then good imo. He's well intended, but that's it really. This event will backfire.

I have no idea if it will even happen.

it is ALL speculation at this point,, but I reject the idea that a protest march is a bad idea on it's face simply because of what might happen.

I also reject the idea that violence is necessarily bad.

and since we are speculating,, I choose to speculate toward a positive outcome..

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.


3 times in this thread, I think.

[fr33]

3 times in this thread, I think.

covered

[better-dead-than-fed]

SCOTUS has changed its position as to whether the Bill of Rights limits the States. In 1833, SCOTUS ruled that the Bill of Rights does not limit the States:


... amendments to guard against the abuse of power were recommended. These amendments demanded security against the apprehended encroachments of the general government — not against those of the local governments.

... amendments were proposed by the required majority in congress, and adopted by the states. These amendments contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the state governments. This court cannot so apply them.

Barron ex rel. Tiernan v. Mayor of Baltimore, 32 US 243 - Supreme Court 1833 (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11954966981769767880&q=barron+v+baltimore&hl=en&as_sdt=2,3)

Due Process was imposed on the States not by the 5th Amendment, but by the 14th. After the 14th was ratified, SCOTUS continued ruling that the Bill of Rights does not limit the States:


The first amendment to the Constitution ... like the other amendments proposed and adopted at the same time, was not intended to limit the powers of the State governments in respect to their own citizens, but to operate upon the National government alone.

... "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." ... The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government....

United States v. Cruikshank, 92 US 542 - Supreme Court 1876 (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9699370891451726349&q=cruikshank&hl=en&as_sdt=2,3)

Throughout the 20th century, SCOTUS gradually ruled that the 14th Amendment prohibits the States from violating the Bill of Rights.


the Court said in 1908 ... that "it is possible that some of the personal rights safeguarded by the first eight Amendments against National action may also be safeguarded against state action, because a denial of them would be a denial of due process of law."

... although the Court as late as 1922 said that "neither the Fourteenth Amendment nor any other provision of the Constitution of the United States imposes upon the States any restrictions about `freedom of speech' . . . ," ... three years later Gitlow v. New York initiated a series of decisions which today hold immune from state invasion every First Amendment protection for the cherished rights of mind and spirit—the freedoms of speech, press, religion, assembly, association, and petition for redress of grievances.

Similarly, Palko v. Connecticut ... decided in 1937, suggested that the rights secured by the Fourth Amendment were not protected against state action.... In 1961, however, the Court held that ... "the Fourth Amendment's right of privacy has been declared enforceable against the States through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth. . . .".

Malloy v. Hogan, 378 US 1 - Supreme Court 1964 (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=12010176256968142269&q=malloy+v+hogan&hl=en&as_sdt=2,3)

Not until 2010 did SCOTUS hold that the 2nd Amendment limits State action.


We have previously held that most of the provisions of the Bill of Rights apply with full force to both the Federal Government and the States. Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States.

McDonald v. City of Chicago, Ill., 130 S. Ct. 3020 - Supreme Court 2010 (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5141154246897960488&q=mcdonald+chicago&hl=en&as_sdt=2,3)

[better-dead-than-fed]

... constitutionalists dismissed as dangerous whackjobs by the public.

The original Constitutionalists foresaw a whackjob public dismissing the Constitution. Isn't that why they added the Second Amendment as a safeguard?

[tangent4ronpaul]

What happened to the other thread in Bearing Arms?

Finally found the Facebook group. It doesn't look like Adam is promoting it at all via his other Facebook pages or YouTube channel.

Open Carry March in Washington DC
https://www.facebook.com/events/252728144871259/

768 Going
759 Maybe
19,771 Invited
(after less than 48 hrs)

My OP quoted Salon that quoted his FB page for the event. He left some important stuff out and as some have pointed out, a couple of other things should be emphasized. To Witt:

On the morning of July 4, 2013, Independence Day, we will muster at the National Cemetery & at noon we will step off to march across the Memorial Bridge, down Independence Avenue, around the Capitol, the Supreme Court, & the White House, then peacefully return to Virginia across the Memorial Bridge. This is an act of civil disobedience, not a permitted event. We will march with rifles loaded & slung across our backs to put the government on notice that we will not be intimidated & cower in submission to tyranny. We are marching to mark the high water mark of government & to turn the tide. This will be a non-violent event, unless the government chooses to make it violent. Should we meet physical resistance, we will peacefully turn back, having shown that free people are not welcome in Washington, & returning with the resolve that the politicians, bureaucrats, & enforcers of the federal government will not be welcome in the land of the free.

There's a remote chance that there will be violence as there has been from government before, and I think it should be clear that if anyone involved in this event is approached respectfully by agents of the state, they will submit to arrest without resisting. We are truly saying in the SUBTLEST way possible that we would rather die on our feet than live on our knees.

You are welcome to attend unarmed as a supporter, or armed with a recording device.

We especially invite law enforcement officers to stand with us armed however they feel is appropriate.

If this page gets to 10,000 attendees by June 1st, & we have the critical mass necessary to pull this off, (1,000 actual attendees) we will march. Please spread the word, share this event, & invite all your friends.


This spins it a little differently, and it might be a good event. A good statement.

This could be defused a lot if the perception went from 1,000 guys with AR's to a more pedestrian "riotous mob". As in encouraging people to bring things other than "evil looking black rifles" (but bring some of those too!). The more .22 plinkers, skeet shotguns, hunting rifles and so on the better. The ideal crowd would have a good percentage of guys carrying flintlocks and ideally in period costume. A platoon or two of kneebiters armed to the teeth with Hello Kitty bubble guns, NERF guns, squirt guns, super soakers, poptarts, BB and pellet guns and spit wad shooters along with spouses - the more knocked up and showing, the better! Oh yes, I forgot one of our most powerful weapons that he's asked for lots of to show up: VIDEO CAMERAS!

The feds wouldn't DARE to fire on such a group...

What I think is going to happen is that the gvmt will freak, put up a huge show of military force at the bridge - troops, tanks, .50 call machine guns, SWAT, riot cops, FBI HRT, SS, DHS - the WORKS! Then as Adam has stated, the protest will turn around and peacefully leave. There will be lots of footage of an over-reaching police state and it will be a general "win" for firearms rights in public opinion.

Does anyone know of the legality of where a territory begins and ends when it concerns a bridge separating geographical boundaries? Is it exactly half way or is it when you step foot on the bridge with a no mans land in between? I suspect it would vary. What's the situation on that bridge?

I can see a scenario where the protest group is ambushed from behind and herded into individual arrest processing. The waiting line being the bridge.

Are they thinking of stopping traffic on the bridge or using pedestrian walkways? Makes a difference. Which way are the cops thinking? This could seriously backfire on their part...

Should the authorities let the protest into the city (doubtful), there will be so many ppl in the city due to the holiday that they wouldn't even think of it due to collateral damage. The SS will get their panties in a wad when they are around certain buildings....

I think marching into DC and finding the closest local park or at most the far end of the reflecting pool for a rally (without a permit), then turning around and leaving would be more reasonable. Safer for all involved.

I can foresee some problems with this exercise... Specifically:
CHAMBERED ROUNDS! - and poor trigger/safety practice...
A DC news guy showed a 30 round mag on TV a bit ago, and possession is a big no, no... SHTF! Consideration for ppl walking over the bridge.
The possibility of hot heads or agent provocateurs wanting to start trouble.
Lack of focus on media and medic considerations??? This isn't spreading as well as it should be...

-t

[unknown]

On the other hand I think many THINK they do want violence, as a glorious wonderous revolution. They won't say it publically but they do.
Rand is the front runner for president and that is one hell of a political movement of the masses. Really stupid now to get impatient and blow it all on violence.

I dont think they want violence, just freedom.

[tangent4ronpaul]

I dont think they want violence, just freedom.

Freedom, when taken, must be taken back by force. I know of no situation where it has been peacefully returned.

-t

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Freedom, when taken, must be taken back by force. I know of no situation where it has been peacefully returned.

-t

Velvet Revolution. Granted those types of things only work with as La Boetie put it in my paraphrasing 'majoritarian withdrawl of consent from governance'. Good luck with that in the USA lol.

[MelissaWV]

There's a remote chance that there will be violence as there has been from government before, and I think it should be clear that if anyone involved in this event is approached respectfully by agents of the state, they will submit to arrest without resisting. We are truly saying in the SUBTLEST way possible that we would rather die on our feet than live on our knees.

This is why it's a pretty ridiculous idea.

If your point is, really, that you would rather die on your feet than live on your knees, then why is your reaction to get on your knees if a cop approaches? I thought it was to turn around and walk away, thus proving that you are in charge of yourself?

[klamath]

I dont think they want violence, just freedom.
And I think you maybe wrong. I knew a lot of young men that were itching to go to war. They love it, however they coated their glee in patriotic revolutionary war slogans EXACTLY like I am hearing here. If fact it is why as someone that always thought the war of independence war as a "GOOD WAR" I am starting to rethink it. The revolutionary war is the original and single greatest source of war pumping propaganda that has fired up the masses for every following war our nation has been in from the civil war to world wars. One of the greatest slogans quoted, "water the tree of liberty" was written by a man that adamently AVOIDED personally fighting the war and watered the tree of his wealth with the labor of slaves. This doesn't mean I think that TJ didn't contribute greatly to creating the republic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGbrdUzHsa8&feature=player_embedded

[tod evans]

I suppose it all boils down to does one believe the type-written proposal or not..

Making assumptions about motivations and desired outcomes only means that one doesn't believe the written proposal.

[pcosmar]

Velvet Revolution. Granted those types of things only work with as La Boetie put it in my paraphrasing 'majoritarian withdrawl of consent from governance'. Good luck with that in the USA lol.
Isn't Czechoslovakia still a socialist country?

Seems like little more than a name change and a few "reforms". The communist party was never communist anyway,, just another socialist dictatorship.

[better-dead-than-fed]

... The revolutionary war is the original and single greatest source of war pumping propaganda that has fired up the masses for every following war our nation has been in from the civil war to world wars.

I'm personally more concerned by the war that the government is currently waging against me. How much of that are you willing to take?

[Anti Federalist]

I'm personally more concerned by the war that the government is currently waging against me. How much of that are you willing to take?

There are a couple of arguments happening here at the same time.

I don't think anybody here is saying that you shouldn't make every attempt to defend yourself, when the day comes to be dragged off to a death camp or shot in the back of the head at the edge of the mass grave.

I also think that everybody is in agreement that, when that time comes, there is almost no chance of a successful conclusion at that point, all you are doing is dying on your terms, rather than the government's.

Some of us say it would be better to fight now, before it comes to that.

[angelatc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army


That is what happens if you are unarmed.


I had not heard of this. Here's a link with more pictures: http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/bonusm.htm

[Tod]

This is why it's a pretty ridiculous idea.


There's a remote chance that there will be violence as there has been from government before, and I think it should be clear that if anyone involved in this event is approached respectfully by agents of the state, they will submit to arrest without resisting. We are truly saying in the SUBTLEST way possible that we would rather die on our feet than live on our knees.

If your point is, really, that you would rather die on your feet than live on your knees, then why is your reaction to get on your knees if a cop approaches? I thought it was to turn around and walk away, thus proving that you are in charge of yourself?


This inconsistency in the rhetoric needs to be cleared up; he is definitely sending mixed messages.