Help, I'm Losing Faith In The Liberty Movement

[Sola_Fide]

I fell too deep in the rabbit hole, I can't look back! I can't in good conscience support this system of coercive government anymore.

[Origanalist]

I fell too deep in the rabbit hole, I can't look back! I can't in good conscience support this system of coercive government anymore.

I'm having trouble tying the two together. You're losing faith in the liberty movement, but you "can't in good conscience support this system of coercive government anymore."

So do you suggest an alternative?

[Christian Liberty]

I think he might be having a hard time supporting politicians who would make things substantially better but still (At least publicly) support some aspects of the coercive system. Rand Paul comes to mind.

To which I would ask, what else am I going to do?

I support the genuine liberty movement guys, even if they aren't as good as I'd like. What's the alternative? Lay down and die?

[Sola_Fide]

I'm having trouble tying the two together. You're losing faith in the liberty movement, but you "can't in good conscience support this system of coercive government anymore."

So do you suggest an alternative?

No, I'm not even at the point yet of suggesting an alternative. But the "liberty movement" is a political movement that can never achieve freedom.

[lib3rtarian]

I think he might be having a hard time supporting politicians who would make things substantially better but still (At least publicly) support some aspects of the coercive system. Rand Paul comes to mind.

There is no way around this. If you need to go 180° from point A to point B, you need to slowly go in a curve. You can't get full-fledged liberatianism or voluntaryism overnight. Dial back some statism, then some, and so on. The reason why we never get anywhere is because we want everything all at once.

[Origanalist]

No, I'm not even at the point yet of suggesting an alternative. But the "liberty movement" is a political movement that can never achieve freedom.

Well, I can't counter with anything that will stand that argument on it's head. Many believe the tree of liberty is watered with blood.

[Christian Liberty]

There is no way around this. If you need to go 180° from point A to point B, you need to slowly go in a curve. You can't get full-fledged liberatianism or voluntaryism overnight. Dial back some statism, then some, and so on. The reason why we never get anywhere is because we want everything all at once.

I'm not disagreeing. Actually, I honestly don't think its going to work anything like that, but I wasn't disagreeing in my post. I was just assuming that that was what Sola Fide was talking about.

Reality, this system is going to collapse. It will be replaced either by something freer than our wildest dreams or (More likely) the next Soviet Union. I don't know how long its going to take, I don't necessarily think its going to be in the next five years. I wouldn't even be 100% surprised if I was dead before it happened. But the math is unavoidable. We ARE SCREWED eventually. The fiat dollar won't last forever. Eventually this system will collapse because people won't accept paper as money anymore..

[Natural Citizen]

The reason why we never get anywhere is because we want everything all at once.

No, that's not why.

[Origanalist]

There is no way around this. If you need to go 180° from point A to point B, you need to slowly go in a curve. You can't get full-fledged liberatianism or voluntaryism overnight. Dial back some statism, then some, and so on. The reason why we never get anywhere is because we want everything all at once.

I've been watching this for some time, and am still waiting for the dialing back of any "statism".

[SkepticalMetal]

I think that if Karl Marx can have a ridiculous notion like "communism" achieve popularity and actually be implemented (or tried to) then libertarianism will inevitably be realized. It's just a matter of which direction humanity wishes to pursue as a species - the underman, a man who believes everything will be handed to him, who achieves nothing of value and descends back to the ape from which he came - or the overman, the human who can truly think things out for himself and achieve wonders through cooperation and the creation of his own ethics which he vigorously pursues through voluntary interactions with his fellow man.

[Keith and stuff]

This is a pretty common problem. I've seen it with dozens of people. Often a person moves to New Hampshire a libertarian. Within a couple years, the person is an anarchist. A few people will only help really amazing politicians like Ron Paul or Mark Warden. In some cases, people drop out of politics all together and focus on the voluntaryist/anarcho-capitalism counter-culture. You know, stuff like bitcoins and Cop Block. You should do what is best for you.

I didn't even know you were libertarian. I just thought you were a principled conservative Republican. Truth is, the US Constitution was created to grow government. You can learn the truth and still be an effective activist.

[NoOneButPaul]

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS." - Gandhi

[WhistlinDave]

I think he might be having a hard time supporting politicians who would make things substantially better but still (At least publicly) support some aspects of the coercive system. Rand Paul comes to mind.

To which I would ask, what else am I going to do?

I support the genuine liberty movement guys, even if they aren't as good as I'd like. What's the alternative? Lay down and die?


There is no way around this. If you need to go 180° from point A to point B, you need to slowly go in a curve. You can't get full-fledged liberatianism or voluntaryism overnight. Dial back some statism, then some, and so on. The reason why we never get anywhere is because we want everything all at once.


No, I'm not even at the point yet of suggesting an alternative. But the "liberty movement" is a political movement that can never achieve freedom.

I think anyone who is too much of a purist will never be allowed to "win" the nomination. I think if we're really going to get any traction and get anywhere, if Ron's last presidential run taught us anything, it's that we are going to have to take back our liberty the same way we lost it -- in increments.

The all-or-nothing approach leads to a brick wall.

[ninepointfive]

I hear ya, OP. this system is too far gone to change it politically. and there isn't any cohesion within the so called, "liberty movement" at the moment.

[pacelli]

I think he might be having a hard time supporting politicians who would make things substantially better but still (At least publicly) support some aspects of the coercive system. Rand Paul comes to mind.

To which I would ask, what else am I going to do?

I support the genuine liberty movement guys, even if they aren't as good as I'd like. What's the alternative? Lay down and die?

How about stand up and fight?

[donnay]

I fell too deep in the rabbit hole, I can't look back! I can't in good conscience support this system of coercive government anymore.

You don't have to. Your mission now, if you should choose to take it is exposing the hijacked government to others. Ron Paul knew that is what is needed, that is why he ran for President knowing he didn't have a snowballs chance in hell in winning against this corrupted bunch. But he had a platform by which he planted seeds in peoples mind and helped to wake up a sleeping giant.

There is always hope that we can turn this mess around and take back our country--in the end we shall prevail.

[lib3rtarian]

I've been watching this for some time, and am still waiting for the dialing back of any "statism".

You got to work within the 2-party system and get Rand elected. Then you will see some of that. If only people would get engaged in the process, instead of registering Libertarian or going full-blown anarchist and wasting their activism and votes. As an example, in my precinct, there are 2100 something Repubs, 2000 something Dems and 182 Libertarians. If this 182 Ls will come out their rabbit holes and help me organize the precinct, we would turn the precinct liberty in no time. But no..everyone is pissed and can't help. I am tired of asking folks to help and getting the "I like Ron, but oh no, I can't support the GOP, ya know?" reply. Not to mention the LPers who think Rand is a neocon thug.

[ninepointfive]

You got to work within the 2-party system and get Rand elected. Then you will see some of that. If only people would get engaged in the process, instead of registering Libertarian or going full-blown anarchist and wasting their activism and votes. As an example, in my precinct, there are 2100 something Repubs, 2000 something Dems and 182 Libertarians. If this 182 Ls will come out their rabbit holes and help me organize the precinct, we would turn the precinct liberty in no time. But no..everyone is pissed and can't help. I am tired of asking folks to help and getting the "I like Ron, but oh no, I can't support the GOP, ya know?" reply. Not to mention the LPers who think Rand is a neocon thug.


probably better off effecting local politics. president is important, but it's not the end all be all

[WhistlinDave]

You don't have to. Your mission now, if you should choose to take it is exposing the hijacked government to others. Ron Paul knew that is what is needed that is why he ran for President knowing he didn't have a snowballs chance in hell in winning against this corrupted bunch. But he had a platform by which he planted seeds in peoples mind and helped to wake up a sleeping giant.

There is always hope that we can turn this miss around and take back our country--in the end we shall prevail.

+rep -- This is a revolution of ideas. When critical mass is reached in our society with the ideas and ideals of liberty, then it won't be such an uphill battle against the powers that be, to get some real change.


"Ideas are very important to the shaping of society. In fact, they are more powerful than bombings or armies or guns. And this is because ideas are capable of spreading without limit. They are behind all the choices we make. They can transform the world in a way that governments and armies cannot. Fighting for liberty with ideas makes more sense to me than fighting with guns or politics or political power. With ideas, we can make real change that lasts." --Ron Paul

[sailingaway]

No, I'm not even at the point yet of suggesting an alternative. But the "liberty movement" is a political movement that can never achieve freedom.

It's a lot more than that. There are those in it who DON'T think politics will achieve it, but that it needs mass awakening through education of various sorts. It is an ongoing debate in the movement which is more important, and if both are important, does one hurt the other. Surely you've noticed?

[WhistlinDave]

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Donnay again."

[SkepticalMetal]

Is the OP an anarcho-capitalist?

[sailingaway]

I think anyone who is too much of a purist will never be allowed to "win" the nomination. I think if we're really going to get any traction and get anywhere, if Ron's last presidential run taught us anything, it's that we are going to have to take back our liberty the same way we lost it -- in increments.

The all-or-nothing approach leads to a brick wall.


I disagree, and if Ron were twenty years younger, how many here would NOT be looking at doing it again in 2016?

It is harder for a really different candidate to get anything like the same amount of fair coverage, but building on the organization Ron already built and using the time in between elections, as he did between 2008 and 2012 to push why the message is correct, I think we'd be right there next time. As it was he was in second in Feb 2011 in a national, GOP ONLY poll, not his kind of poll at all... and had that been given the same kind of coverage that all other surges to second got the other candidates, I think we would have had a different GOP nominee. Even as it was he DID get enough states to put him into nomination to get his name in at RNC for a delegate vote and speech -- and they had to retroactively change the rules, and pretend the vote to do that had actually passed, and if you listen to the vote itself, your call will likely be very different.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx1ggHig7jI

[donnay]

+rep -- This is a revolution of ideas. When critical mass is reached in our society with the ideas and ideals of liberty, then it won't be such an uphill battle against the powers that be, to get some real change.


"Ideas are very important to the shaping of society. In fact, they are more powerful than bombings or armies or guns. And this is because ideas are capable of spreading without limit. They are behind all the choices we make. They can transform the world in a way that governments and armies cannot. Fighting for liberty with ideas makes more sense to me than fighting with guns or politics or political power. With ideas, we can make real change that lasts." --Ron Paul

Thanks. Great quote!

Another good one:

"All the forces in the world are not so powerful as an idea whose time has come."
~ Victor Hugo


ETA: Another good Hugo quote I forgot:

"Adversity makes men, and prosperity makes monsters."
~ Victor Hugo

[lib3rtarian]

probably better off effecting local politics. president is important, but it's not the end all be all

Exactly. We were and probably are in a good position to take some key positions at the NC GOP convention, but we need the fuckin' numbers! The establishment is bringing in <drum roll> Karl Rove </drum roll> as the special guest to draw the establishment votes, and Jim Bob Duggar, the dude who makes babies like rabbits, to draw the social con votes, all in an effort to defeat the liberty candidates..Glen and others.

[Sola_Fide]

Is the OP an anarcho-capitalist?

I'm just a Christian.

[SkepticalMetal]

I'm just a Christian.
Some of the most prominent anarcho-capitalists (Lew Rockwell, Robert Murphy, Tom Woods, Jeffrey Tucker) are Christians.

[WhistlinDave]

I disagree, and if Ron were twenty years younger, how many here would NOT be looking at doing it again in 2016?

I'm not saying Rand shouldn't be a purist once he takes office. Just that getting there might require that he plays the same game most politicians do--say one thing, and then do the other. (Especially since he has to get the nomination first and we've all seen how corrupt that process is.)

If Ron were to run again, regardless of his age, I would absolutely support him again!!

I'm not saying we should compromise our ideals and become less libertarian. I'm saying, if Rand is our best shot, I will support him and I encourage others to do the same.

Rand isn't his dad. He isn't perfect. And he is playing the game pretty well, which requires saying and doing some things that are not the pure libertarian position. But I would much rather have an imperfect Rand in the White House, because he would be 2000% better than having another Clinton/Bush/Obama/Romney/Whoever.

[ninepointfive]

Some of the most prominent anarcho-capitalists (Lew Rockwell, Robert Murphy, Tom Woods, Jeffrey Tucker) are Christians.

I think woods is catholic

[Christian Liberty]

How about stand up and fight?

We can't win that way yet. We need to actually have some state governors who would be willing to start the process. So far, we haven't got that yet. Fighting FedGov at an individual level is just suicidal. Which, sorry, but I'm not. I'd rather keep educating people, and voting for the occasional decent candidate (Or in most years, the LP candidate) rather than just get myself killed.


It's a lot more than that. There are those in it who DON'T think politics will achieve it, but that it needs mass awakening through education of various sorts. It is an ongoing debate in the movement which is more important, and if both are important, does one hurt the other. Surely you've noticed?

Yeah, I don't think politics is actually going to work but I'm still willing to help those who do think that it can. I'm willing to gamble. So I'm kind of on the fringe of both of those camps.

[idiom]

Move somewhere where you are not leeching off of force. Like Somalia, the Solomon Islands or a hand full of other places.

[fr33]

Totally understand the op.

[cajuncocoa]

Some of the most prominent anarcho-capitalists (Lew Rockwell, Robert Murphy, Tom Woods, Jeffrey Tucker) are Christians.


I think woods is catholic
Catholics are Christians.

[asurfaholic]

No, I'm not even at the point yet of suggesting an alternative. But the "liberty movement" is a political movement that can never achieve freedom.

The "liberty" movement has to take baby steps. As you know, it is the only possible way to achieve liberty (politically taking back govt piece by piece) that involves no violence.

This is important because violence will be ugly and will not likely end up well for the side that takes up arms against the very govt that spends more on defense than the next top 10 countries combined.

[Yieu]

I'm glad to see you've come to this position. As I've said for some time -- the only authority I recognize is the Lord.

Jai Sri Krishna!

[sailingaway]

A great 2011 interview of Ron Paul on Dylan Ratigan's show. From Ratigan's write up:


He doesn’t think that anyone in government will start a real debate about structural problems in our economy, but is satisfied that we have begun to make some progress. “I wouldn’t wait for the politicians to really initiate it; they’re going to always be putting their finger up to the wind. And see – we have to change the direction of the wind. And I think we’re making a little bit of progress, you know, from my viewpoint, whether it’s economics or foreign policy or monetary policy. I feel like maybe they’re paying a little bit of attention,” says Rep. Paul.

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/07/13/ron-paul-exclusive-who%E2%80%99s-regulating-washington/

re uploaded in January (podcast: http://www.dylanratigan.com/2012/01/03/from-the-vault-radio-free-dylan-with-rep-ron-paul/ )

It is a very good interview and gives a good discussion of value of political action from a particular point of view.

[PatriotOne]

I like to take a trip down memory lane every once in awhile when I get tired.

When I think back to 2007 and we were nothing but a bothersome gnat to the establishment I can't help but be impressed with how far we have come. We are winning this battle. We have Ron Paul's son leading the Republican presidential polls FFS :eek:. We are the wrench stuck in the gears of the One World Government agenda and their puppet politicians.

They are throwing everything they have at us right now out of desperation to maintain power so it just seems like we are losing. We are not.

[Yieu]

We are not.

Oooookay.

[fr33]

I like to take a trip down memory lane every once in awhile when I get tired.

When I think back to 2007 and we were nothing but a bothersome gnat to the establishment I can't help but be impressed with how far we have come. We are winning this battle. We have Ron Paul's son leading the Republican presidential polls FFS :eek:. We are the wrench stuck in the gears of the One World Government agenda and their puppet politicians.

They are throwing everything they have at us right now out of desperation to maintain power so it just seems like we are losing. We are not.

I don't think we are winning but we are making progress. It's just going to be really slow and will either come to fruition a few generations in the future or it will become locked up in fema camps.

[WhistlinDave]

It is harder for a really different candidate to get anything like the same amount of fair coverage, but building on the organization Ron already built and using the time in between elections, as he did between 2008 and 2012 to push why the message is correct, I think we'd be right there next time. As it was he was in second in Feb 2011 in a national, GOP ONLY poll, not his kind of poll at all... and had that been given the same kind of coverage that all other surges to second got the other candidates, I think we would have had a different GOP nominee. Even as it was he DID get enough states to put him into nomination to get his name in at RNC for a delegate vote and speech -- and they had to retroactively change the rules, and pretend the vote to do that had actually passed, and if you listen to the vote itself, your call will likely be very different.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx1ggHig7jI

You must've been editing to add this at the same time I was typing my last response....

And that was exactly my point... The teleprompter with the scripted vote to change the rules, to pull the rug out from under Ron, after an entire primary in which the media did everything possible to pretend Ron didn't exist, especially when he placed high in straw polls early on.... (Or to make him out as some fringe candidate without much of a real following.)

The reason for this was, the war mongers don't want to lose their grip. They want war puppets in office, not someone who will topple the growing empire by bringing all our troops home.

This is why I think anyone who's as pure as Ron is going to get the same treatment he did by the corporate owned media, and by the establishment at the top of the party, and he or she will not be allowed to "win" the nomination. And to that end, if Rand isn't as non-interventionist as Ron on foreign policy, I'm fine with it, because if that's what he has to do in order to get in office, I have to trust he knows what he's doing. (And I also trust that Rand will still do everything in his power to not take us into any more immoral or unconstitutional wars.)

I might be wrong here, but I guess that's really what I was trying to say.

[sailingaway]

You must've been editing to add this at the same time I was typing my last response....

And that was exactly my point... The teleprompter with the scripted vote to change the rules, to pull the rug out from under Ron, after an entire primary in which the media did everything possible to pretend Ron didn't exist, especially when he placed high in straw polls early on.... (Or to make him out as some fringe candidate without much of a real following.)

The reason for this was, the war mongers don't want to lose their grip. They want war puppets in office, not someone who will topple the growing empire by bringing all our troops home.

This is why I think anyone who's as pure as Ron is going to get the same treatment he did by the corporate owned media, and by the establishment at the top of the party, and he or she will not be allowed to "win" the nomination. And to that end, if Rand isn't as non-interventionist as Ron on foreign policy, I'm fine with it, because if that's what he has to do in order to get in office, I have to trust he knows what he's doing. (And I also trust that Rand will still do everything in his power to not take us into any more immoral or unconstitutional wars.)

I might be wrong here, but I guess that's really what I was trying to say.

What I am saying is he got this far even with all their stops pulled out against him. I don't think they'd be able to stop him if he were to do it again, were he twenty years younger, and willing. I don't think they are all powerful, I think they were taxed to manage it this time, and hadn't until the day of RNC, entirely.

I prefer his approach because then you are getting the mandate of the people for the right ideas.

[jtstellar]

i carry you, who carry me? many of us independently minded people have to be the mental anchor in our own social circles already while spreading ideas.

if i have to come here and do the same, why should this movement ever be home? people here were supposed to be intellectual/emotional strength equals. not saying people won't have hard days in their life, but i hate threads like this. give me a break already.. i have to pep talk liberals and neocons into liberty, and when i visit the choir, i have to cuddle them too? seriously, give me a break. stop being so weak

[WhistlinDave]

What I am saying is he got this far even with all their stops pulled out against him. I don't think they'd be able to stop him if he were to do it again, were he twenty years younger, and willing. I don't think they are all powerful, I think they were taxed to manage it this time, and hadn't until the day of RNC, entirely.

I prefer his approach because then you are getting the mandate of the people for the right ideas.

Well, that's true. I would prefer too if we could have a "pure" candidate propelled to win by the will of the people. Maybe I'm pessimistic because I'm so new to this, and wasn't around to see what it was like last time around in 2007/2008, and don't know first hand just how far this movement has come. Maybe I should be more optimistic and stick to principle more.... Either way though, I'll still take Rand any day over just about anyone else out there now that Ron has taken the revolution into more non-political efforts. (I almost said now that Ron has "retired" but that wouldn't be true...)

[bunklocoempire]

This is a pretty common problem. I've seen it with dozens of people. Often a person moves to New Hampshire a libertarian. Within a couple years, the person is an anarchist. A few people will only help really amazing politicians like Ron Paul or Mark Warden. In some cases, people drop out of politics all together and focus on the voluntaryist/anarcho-capitalism counter-culture. You know, stuff like bitcoins and Cop Block. You should do what is best for you.

I didn't even know you were libertarian. I just thought you were a principled conservative Republican. Truth is, the US Constitution was created to grow government. You can learn the truth and still be an effective activist.

This works. Be as free as you can be, starve the beast as best you can, continue to educate in your own way as you can, continue to support the movement the best you can and prepare.

The first two I find really help my attitude day to day and the last one prepare does too. The other stuff you see some progress here and there and that's great -but actually having a plan and 'sticking it to the man' daily (legally in my case) is awesome -instant gratification along with sharing your progress with others showing them what you and they can do all by themselves.

Hang in there everyone. :)

[anaconda]

the "liberty movement" is a political movement that can never achieve freedom.

Why not? If it keeps evolving year after year, government can continually decrease. The constitution can even be amended to reduce the enumerated powers. And so on and so on. If the masses are way better off they will like it and will be clamoring for less and less government as time goes on. We just have to slice away one layer of tyranny at a time.

[Bastiat's The Law]

I've been watching this for some time, and am still waiting for the dialing back of any "statism".
Many planets have to align for that to happen; but they are aligning our way faster than I've ever fathomed they would.

[Bastiat's The Law]

I'm not disagreeing. Actually, I honestly don't think its going to work anything like that, but I wasn't disagreeing in my post. I was just assuming that that was what Sola Fide was talking about.

Reality, this system is going to collapse. It will be replaced either by something freer than our wildest dreams or (More likely) the next Soviet Union. I don't know how long its going to take, I don't necessarily think its going to be in the next five years. I wouldn't even be 100% surprised if I was dead before it happened. But the math is unavoidable. We ARE SCREWED eventually. The fiat dollar won't last forever. Eventually this system will collapse because people won't accept paper as money anymore..
Try to hold it together boy wonder. With all due respect, don't you live in New York? Maybe focus on cleaning up your own backyard first before lecturing us about how it's all for naught and hosting a pity party. Many places in this country are light-years ahead of you in terms of liberty. Stop whining and KBO.

[Bastiat's The Law]

I think anyone who is too much of a purist will never be allowed to "win" the nomination. I think if we're really going to get any traction and get anywhere, if Ron's last presidential run taught us anything, it's that we are going to have to take back our liberty the same way we lost it -- in increments.

The all-or-nothing approach leads to a brick wall.

Cathedrals don't fall from the sky already completed. They are built, painstakingly, brick by brick. The liberty movement is relatively young both in existence and demographics, so there's a natural immediate gratification element to it. A substantial portion want to experience liberty, but aren't willing to put in the hard work to achieve it. Others get lost going down blind alleys and chasing black dogs in the night searching for some anarchist utopia. At some point you'd think critical thinking would kick in.

[Bastiat's The Law]

It's a lot more than that. There are those in it who DON'T think politics will achieve it, but that it needs mass awakening through education of various sorts. It is an ongoing debate in the movement which is more important, and if both are important, does one hurt the other. Surely you've noticed?
Except, you're WAY behind the 8-ball when you find yourself educating adults who have been baptized within the liberal controlled public school system for over a decade and then got a further indoctrination at university for another four years. Then comes the constant bombardment by the media thought controllers to crystallize those beliefs they just spent their entire life learning up until that point. It's a herculean task to provide the education they should've been privy to in their formative years at this juncture. You're not even starting at zero here because these people aren't clean slates; you actually have to spend exorbitant amounts of time just deprogramming all the misinformation and junk history, economics, etc, these people were taught. They have conscious and subconscious defensive barriers to guard against divergent thought in place. It's really a miracle we can still reach people after all that and witness the light-bulbs going on. On some sub-level the population realizes something is rotten in the state of Denmark at the moment. They just haven't been able to piece it all together due to their previous years of miseducation and indoctrination. The best avenue for reaching people still is politics and independent media. At least in those venues they might be open-minded enough and lucky enough to hear something that doesn't fit the narrative they were brought up to believe. People are starting to look for answers now and we should be in ever facet of life providing those answers, be it political or elsewhere. Choose your intellectual realm and armaments and go to battle!

[WhistlinDave]

Except, you're WAY behind the 8-ball when you find yourself educating adults who have been baptized within the liberal controlled public school system for over a decade and then got a further indoctrination at university for another four years. Then comes the constant bombardment by the media thought controllers to crystallize those beliefs they just spent their entire life learning up until that point. It's a herculean task to provide the education they should've been privy to in their formative years at this juncture. You're not even starting at zero here because these people aren't clean slates; you actually have to spend exorbitant amounts of time just deprogramming all the misinformation and junk history, economics, etc, these people were taught. They have conscious and subconscious defensive barriers to guard against divergent thought in place. It's really a miracle we can still reach people after all that and witness the light-bulbs going on. On some sub-level the population realizes something is rotten in the state of Denmark at the moment. They just haven't been able to piece it all together due to their previous years of miseducation and indoctrination. The best avenue for reaching people still is politics and independent media. At least in those venues they might be open-minded enough and lucky enough to hear something that doesn't fit the narrative they were brought up to believe. People are starting to look for answers now and we should be in ever facet of life providing those answers, be it political or elsewhere. Choose your intellectual realm and armaments and go to battle!

This is so true... I still sometimes can't believe how differently I see the world, the MSM, politics, wars, the economy, etc., when I compare today vs. just a couple short years ago. I'm still trying to un-do all those years of being immersed in that B.S. version of reality! My eyes have been opened wide but I still don't know how to see it all with crystal clarity yet. That might take a while still but I'm thankful to Ron Paul and every one of his supporters who ever wrote a comment on an article I read, or who debated me here or anywhere else, or who worked tirelessly in primaries supporting Dr. Paul, or who did anything anywhere to spread the message.

Sola_Fide, even though you and I disagree sometimes on the details of religion/theology, that includes you as well of course! I have learned things from you and I am grateful for it! Don't lose faith now!! (Just look at your user name... You of all people cannot lose faith.) You never know the ripple effect from one pebble thrown into a pond. One chance thing you say to someone at the right time can be a part of their transformation, their awakening. You just never know.

And now, as I try to continue the revolution of ideas, it's usually very frustrating as I try to offer the red pill to others. Most people completely reject it, and some might take a little nibble but they can't really swallow it yet. But I can't stop. I think it was Einstein who said, "A mind, once illuminated, can never again go dark." It's almost an obsession now for me, and my wife sometimes thinks I've gone off the deep end, and yet every time I have a moment where I know someone goes, "Aha" because I've helped them look at something a little differently, it encourages me to keep going, to keep fighting the war of ideas, to keep speaking the truth, however imperfect my understanding of it might be.

So for whatever it's worth, don't lose faith now. This thing is only really gearing up, and it's only going to continue building more and more momentum, even if within the movement there is a lack of cohesion in the direction to take politically. Soon enough that won't matter, because the Revolution of Ideas cannot be stopped.

[wizardwatson]

+rep -- This is a revolution of ideas. When critical mass is reached in our society with the ideas and ideals of liberty, then it won't be such an uphill battle against the powers that be, to get some real change.


"Ideas are very important to the shaping of society. In fact, they are more powerful than bombings or armies or guns. And this is because ideas are capable of spreading without limit. They are behind all the choices we make. They can transform the world in a way that governments and armies cannot. Fighting for liberty with ideas makes more sense to me than fighting with guns or politics or political power. With ideas, we can make real change that lasts." --Ron Paul


Thanks. Great quote!

Another good one:

"All the forces in the world are not so powerful as an idea whose time has come."
~ Victor Hugo


ETA: Another good Hugo quote I forgot:

"Adversity makes men, and prosperity makes monsters."
~ Victor Hugo

...

How about this quote:


"Who were the fools who spread the story that brute force cannot kill ideas? Nothing is easier. And once they are dead they are no more than corpses. - Simone Weil (Christian Philosopher)"

It's true that ideas "spread" and can even "awaken" others as people around here like to say. But destroying them is easy. In fact the liberty movement is the ultimate destroyer of ideas. We've destroyed most of what the everyday person believes in on some level. And inside the movement we have all these theories of ideas that if they haven't been destroyed they have certainly been poked full of holes. The only "ideas" that seem to hold are that violence isn't good and we should educate people. Ideas are abstract and are fragile and for good reason. Action is important. Too often action in the world is replaced by support of an idea.

What is important is not the idea but the state of mind of the awakened individual. Compassion, love, non-violence, truth, these are all ideas. But in an awakened individual these are the qualities of his being and his action.

So what's "special" about the liberty movement is not our ideas. What is special is that we have a lot of individuals awakened to the truth and have moved beyond worshipping ideas as a substitute for action. They want to act. Figuring out how to do that effectively is another story.

So saying that "ideas can't be killed" is just another idea that is not so difficult to destroy.

[Bastiat's The Law]

This movement is going to continue to snowball and grow exponentially. You haven't seen anything yet!

[kathy88]

i carry you, who carry me? many of us independently minded people have to be the mental anchor in our own social circles already while spreading ideas.

if i have to come here and do the same, why should this movement ever be home? people here were supposed to be intellectual/emotional strength equals. not saying people won't have hard days in their life, but i hate threads like this. give me a break already.. i have to pep talk liberals and neocons into liberty, and when i visit the choir, i have to cuddle them too? seriously, give me a break. stop being so weak

FTW

[Keith and stuff]

Why not? If it keeps evolving year after year, government can continually decrease. The constitution can even be amended to reduce the enumerated powers. And so on and so on. If the masses are way better off they will like it and will be clamoring for less and less government as time goes on. We just have to slice away one layer of tyranny at a time.

It is very unlikely to work on a large scale. That why the free state project was created. To see if it is even possible Ina low population state if people from all over the world try to help it along. Who knows, maybe it will work in NH and the spread. Maybe it won't work in NH and liberty will be lost from Earth forever. At this point, it is to early to tell. Though, it is obvious that people have been trying to spread freedom in the US for 100s of years and all of the methods that have been tried so far have been failures.