Today's MSM message: THE SURGE IS WORKING

[llepard]

Watching all the Sunday news shows, ABC and Fox so far.

This just in from the Ministry of Truth: The Surge Is Working.

Oh, great, now I feel better.

Amazing the way the message is almost identical on two different networks. Coordination.......nah

Discuss among yourselves. What evidence do they have to support this?

I know killings are down slightly, but they are still high.

Anyone have the most recent facts. Is their statement true?

Lindsay Graham calls this the most successful anti insurgency movement in US history and perhaps World history. Where did he go to college? What an asshat.

[ItsTime]

Ya they are ignoring the fact that while bombings in Iraq have gone down slightly. Bombings in Afghanistan have skyrocketed.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/24/content_7139563.htm

[John of Des Moines]

Yeah the guy who does CNN's "Reliable Sources" said the same thing.

How do you think the news media gets its talking points for the day?

1. Regular US Mail (snail mail)
2. Fax
3. Email
4. Smoke signals from CIA Headquarters
5. Other (You suggest...)

[ItsTime]

Well fox gets memos from CEOs on what and how to talk about the issues. I am sure the rest operate the same way. :eek:


Yeah the guy who does CNN's "Reliable Sources" said the same thing.

How do you think the news media gets its talking points for the day?

1. Regular US Mail (snail mail)
2. Fax
3. Email
4. Smoke signals from CIA Headquarters
5. Other (You suggest...)

[Visual]

the thing is if the surge is working, it's shown that when we remove troops the killings go back up. So essentially, for peace we will have to keep our troops there for eternity.

[Corydoras]

the thing is if the surge is working, it's shown that when we remove troops the killings go back up. So essentially, for peace we will have to keep our troops there for eternity.

Gen. Abizaid says it will only be 50 years.
:rolleyes:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3792081&page=1

[T206]

I like that I have to get online and come here to find out what the MSM message is, otherwise Id have no idea. :) That should worry them when it comes to what they really care about which is their advertising $$.

[Kap]

If it's working how come we haven't heard a thing about political progress? It's funny, MSN started that whole argument and now we hear nothing about Iraq or the number of soliders wounded or dying.

These media corporations need to be destroyed.

[Oliver]

Amazing the way the message is almost identical on two different networks. Coordination.......nah


Uhm, if both Networks get the information from the same News-agency
like Reuters or AP, of course the message is identical. It would be very
suspicious if this wouldn't be the case... ;)

[FunkBuddha]

I wonder if they're calculating the 90% reduction in violence in the Basra region since the Brits left.


i wouldn't put it past this administration and MSM to do that.

[ChristopherJ]

If it's working how come we haven't heard a thing about political progress?

This is of course the real question. Part of the goal was political stability and when measured against this yard stick the surge is a failure. Of course this is not the type of thing they are going to report.

[angelatc]

It isn't just our news. BBC America is also reporting the same stories.

I've said this before. They're going to make the war a non-issue in the election, since the Democrats have also determined that we need to endlessly occupy that region. Once the White House torch is passed, they can go back to business as usual. And start the draft.

[inibo]

Two points:

1) If the "surge is working" it probably has to do with the fact that Baghdad has been pretty much ethnically cleansed. They are not killing each other because both sides have pretty much killed or driven out their rivals from most neighborhoods.
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2007/11/02/the-surge-and-iraqi-ethnic-cleansing/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200711040001

It's like saying the number of killings dropped of in Warsaw a week after the Germans put down the ghetto uprising.

2) Even if we had turned Iraq into a paradise, it does not change the fact that our invasion of that country was a war crime.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergIndictments.html See Article 6(a)
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/library/treaties/nuremberg/trty_nuremberg-principles_1950.htm See Principle VI.

[AlexMerced]

Two points:

1) If the "surge is working" it probably has to do with the fact that Baghdad has been pretty much ethnically cleansed. They are not killing each other because both sides have pretty much killed or driven out their rivals from most neighborhoods.
http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2007/11/02/the-surge-and-iraqi-ethnic-cleansing/
http://mediamatters.org/items/200711040001

It's like saying the number of killings dropped of in Warsaw a week after the Germans put down the ghetto uprising.

2) Even if we had turned Iraq into a paradise, it does not change the fact that our invasion of that country was a war crime.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergIndictments.html See Article 6(a)
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/library/treaties/nuremberg/trty_nuremberg-principles_1950.htm See Principle VI.

agreed, and a cost/benefit analysis would of shown we losed a long time ago, this is like those people playing candyland although somebody already won... something like that.

unless the whole middle east becomes this super consitituitonal democracy tomrrow, it's gonna be hard to really say this was evera good thing. Even then, it's un constitutional and no state has been sustainable when propped up like this.

[IHaveaDream]

Rush Windbag will probably have multiple orgasms as he plays all the "drive-by media" soundbites from the Sunday talk shows. Hannity and Levin will probably do cartwheels through Times Square.

[FreedomLover]

It's been happening for about a month but the MSM is just starting to pick it up.

Violence is way, way down. Whether the trend continues after the surge ends is anyone's guess.

[chipvogel]

I'm glad the surge is working. I'm glad the body counts are going down. I'd still like to know when its going to end. Right now the war in Iraq seems as endless as the war on poverty and the war on drugs.

[iddo]

Note that Hillary Clinton has been toeing the party line that the surge is working since August:
I also made a full commitment to martial American power, resources and values in the global fight against these terrorists. That begins with ensuring that America does have the world's strongest and smartest military force. We've begun to change tactics in Iraq, and in some areas, particularly in Al Anbar province, it's working... We can't be fighting the last war. We have to be preparing to fight the new war... We've got to be prepared to maintain the best fighting force in the world. I propose increasing the size of our Army by 80,000 soldiers, balancing the legacy systems with newer programs to help us keep our technological edge...(link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/21/clinton-iraq-tactics-wo_n_61272.html))

[partypooper]

Anyone have the most recent facts. Is their statement true?

it's probably true but that is irrelevant. the real question is how much it costs and whether we can afford it - and we can't and that is very clear.

there is no need to deny that the surge is "working", it is a very difficult question to assess. we can grant that it is working and still be very much right about ron paul foreign policy proposals.

[Grandson of Liberty]

the surge is working to do what?

how was u.s. sovereignty defended?
how many lives did it cost?
how much did it cost taxpayers?
what is victory?

just some things i'm curious about.

[AlexMerced]

but isn't the drop in violence cause the UK pulled out?

[hvac ak47]

They will now try to attack Iran!!!

[jake]

They will now try to attack Iran!!!

exactly. claim the surge is working today, claim its under control, invade iran. :mad:

[ape]

Lindsay Graham calls this the most successful anti insurgency movement in US history and perhaps World history. Where did he go to college? What an asshat.


LOL, they don't call him goober graham fro nothing :D

[apc3161]

These guys are a joke the MSM. For one, they failed to mention that violence went down by 90% when the brits left, but they are jumping all over this.

My guess? Well the IEDS in Afghanistan are up over 100% in the past year. I would guess a bunch of the combatants just went over there. Also, if anything this is just a temporary security. There are a lot of young teenagers in Iraq that aren't old enough to fight back, teenagers that have lost mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. Once they get old, they will fight back, and we have pissed off enough of them to do this.

This "security" if it even exists is only temporary.

[partypooper]

exactly. claim the surge is working today, claim its under control, invade iran. :mad:

well, that's because everybody keeps ignoring the cost of the surge. the whole debate centers around the effects of the surge, while nobody mentions the costs of those effects.

that sort of debate very much hurts anti-war position. it might as well be the fact that surge is working (improving security, at least short term, improving democracy in iraq, whatever...). but even if the effects are splendid, it is a wrong thing to do because it is too costly.

do not get caught into defending the claim that the surge is not working. many neocons are emotionally attached to the idea and they will dismiss us if we deny its effects. but if you point out the costs they will listen.

[wgadget]

How about this: (haven't read the whole thread, sorry if it's a duplicate)

http://www.kansascity.com/news/world/story/373025.html

[FreedomLover]

but isn't the drop in violence cause the UK pulled out?

The UK had about 5,000 soldiers stationed in Basra. They moved them to an airport on the outskirts of the city.

[max]

this like a gambler saying that after he changed his betting methodology, he weekly losses dropped from $1000 to $800.

[terlinguatx]

...

[FreedomLover]

I'm glad that less troops have been dying over the past few months, and so is Paul I'm sure. However, that doesn't absolve the administration of its lies and justify this unjust occupation (nor does it make up for the trillions spent). Paul's message is diverse though, and even if Iraq stops becoming such a hot button issue, his policies on immigraiton, taxation, and domestic spending are "leaps and bounds" ahead of the tired old ideas being spouted by the other candidates. Not to mention, he's the only man of honesty and principle. Therefore, I don't think this will diminish the enthusiastic support for Paul.

Exactly. We should welcome good news in Iraq.

[max]

LOL, they don't call him goober graham fro nothing :D

Lindsey Graham likes boys

[michaelwise]

Can anyone logically define a victory in Iraq for me? I still don't understand what a victory there looks like. If defined logically could the war ever be won?

[constitutional]

Remember guys, Bush needs the funds for the war. He requested Congress to give him a check with no strings attached. The dems recently stated they will under no condition offer a blank check.

:|

[constitutional]

Can anyone logically define a victory in Iraq for me? I still don't understand what a victory there looks like. If defined logically could the war ever be won?

That's when we get off oil and stop supplying aid to Israel. These two factors will automatically lead us out of middle east.

[AlexMerced]

I'm hoping that issue can be delayed throughout next year

[tmg19103]

Here is the problem. This "surge" has only brought the killings and deaths down to the unacceptable levels of 2006. The MSM fails to mention that. So, we still have a ton of carnage, no end in sight (the "success" of the surge is actually an idiotic argument to continue this mess for the neocons) and this will end up costing us TRILLIONS if we stay another 4 years as Hillary wants - AND who is to say in a year or so American and Iraqi deaths won't go through the roof again?

Also, and while I think he is the anti-Christ, Karl Rove is a brilliant campaign strategist. He recently wrote that this election will hinge on the economy and not the war. That is GREAT. Ron Paul has the best economic message - AND the only way to save our economy is to bring our troops home and save hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars that can be reinvested in our county - either directly or by elimination of the federal income tax, which will take a little time, but we will see an immediate windfall by pulling in our empire and creating a competing gold/silver backed currency to our useless fiat dollars.

[tmg19103]

Can anyone logically define a victory in Iraq for me? I still don't understand what a victory there looks like. If defined logically could the war ever be won?

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=938

[XelR8r]

Lindsay Graham calls this the most successful anti insurgency movement in US history and perhaps World history. Where did he go to college? What an asshat.


ROFLMAO!

I'm guessing it was an all boys school.

[dwdollar]

It's called guerilla warfare. The Ministry of Love has taken that term out of the mainstream vocabulary. There's a reason for that and now we see why. If you don't know what guerilla warfare is, then you can't recognize what is truly happening in Iraq.

[BillyDkid]

You know, I have seen the argument made by some neocon types that people who oppose the war don't want things to go well and like it when things go badly - as though we would prefer to see our guys killed if it justifies our position. Of course that isn't true. What is true is that we fear that things going better (if they are and if it is a harbinger of the future) will serve as validation and justification of really bad and dangerous foreign policy. Even if we did great in Iraq it was still wrong and unjustified and many, many thousands of people are still dead who wouldn't otherwise have been if we hadn't gone in and we wouldn't be borrowing massive amounts of money we can't afford to finance the war. If things go remotely well it will be an excuse for the chicken hawks to argue that their foreign policy is good and they were correct.

[llepard]

You know, I have seen the argument made by some neocon types that people who oppose the war don't want things to go well and like it when things go badly - as though we would prefer to see our guys killed if it justifies our position. Of course that isn't true. What is true is that we fear that things going better (if they are and if it is a harbinger of the future) will serve as validation and justification of really bad and dangerous foreign policy. Even if we did great in Iraq it was still wrong and unjustified and many, many thousands of people are still dead who wouldn't otherwise have been if we hadn't gone in and we wouldn't be borrowing massive amounts of money we can't afford to finance the war. If things go remotely well it will be an excuse for the chicken hawks to argue that their foreign policy is good and they were correct.

Absolutely. I want our troops to succeed. But my post was designed to make two points:

1. These same people told us that Iraq had WMD, how did that work out?

2. All these news outlets just a parrot the party line out of the Administration. Reports I have read say violence is down 15-25%, I have seen headlines on cable saying "Violence In Iraq Plunges". I don't know about you but a 15% decline is not a plunge in my book.

If things are going better I say: hallelujah. But, is it true? and how does this help the thousands of dead US servicepeople and the hundreds of thousands of dead innocent iraqis that have been killed because we made this enormous mistake?

[lx43]

I think they are saying the surge is working to give crediablity to candiates like Guliani, Romney, etc. Its just a ploy

[kevinblack]

This is a great soundbite. "The surge is working" it is important that we make people realize that this is WRONG. We did not go into Iraq to become the police force of Bagdag and measuring success in terms of how well we are able to police the streets does NOT mean that anything is working.

We went to Iraq to stop terrorism. Is the surge working to reduce terrorism? NO
Did your sons, your neighbours and your teachers go to Iraq to become policemen? NO

[slantedview]

This kind of "news" usually comes from the top down. I haven't seen the news today, but I'm guessing some senior official or general said the surge is working, thus it is so. Eh?

[rasheedwallace]

ugh, i know.

i was disgusted seeing the fox sunday news intro after the seahawks game today..."the surge is working" my ass. but surely this is what they are trying to propagandize.

[me3]

llepard, there is only one surge working.

The Ron Paul Surge. :)

[partypooper]

This is a great soundbite. "The surge is working" it is important that we make people realize that this is WRONG. We did not go into Iraq to become the police force of Bagdag and measuring success in terms of how well we are able to police the streets does NOT mean that anything is working.

We went to Iraq to stop terrorism. Is the surge working to reduce terrorism? NO
Did your sons, your neighbours and your teachers go to Iraq to become policemen? NO

no, i think that is completely wrong way to argue. you get entangled into empirical arguments about whether situation in iraq is somehow related to a probability of a terrorist attack at home and that argument is not that easy to win with people who are not already sympathetic to dr paul's views.

stick to the cost argument. everybody can appreciate that surge was incredibly expensive, and with a little discussion, that it is related to the fall of the dollar.

[Mandrik]

WE WON! USA! USA! USA!

Now lets bring 'em home...

[wgadget]

Well, not everyone agrees:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/13/iraq.sanchez/index.html

[weatherbill]

next they will tell us how wonderful uor economy is.......such manipulators....of course, this is to get the voters ready in preparation for what they want the sheeple to feel, so the vote goes according to their plans, but we are out in force to shock the vote!

[Diana]

Watching all the Sunday news shows, ABC and Fox so far.

This just in from the Ministry of Truth: The Surge Is Working.

Oh, great, now I feel better.

Amazing the way the message is almost identical on two different networks. Coordination.......nah

Discuss among yourselves. What evidence do they have to support this?

I know killings are down slightly, but they are still high.

Anyone have the most recent facts. Is their statement true?

Lindsay Graham calls this the most successful anti insurgency movement in US history and perhaps World history. Where did he go to college? What an asshat.

I didn't turn on the TV at all today - but as I was leaving the grocery store I noticed the headline of our local newspaper read: "John Barrasso says The Surge is Working" so we have a Senator here parroting the same message on the same day.

[Richandler]

Why are we still paying attention the MSM again? I'm just wondering. I never watch Clown News I don't know why anyone else would.

[paulitics]

They will now try to attack Iran!!!

yep. Thats a sure sign.

[inibo]

it's probably true but that is irrelevant. the real question is how much it costs and whether we can afford it - and we can't and that is very clear.

there is no need to deny that the surge is "working", it is a very difficult question to assess. we can grant that it is working and still be very much right about ron paul foreign policy proposals.

I agree with you on practical terms, we can't afford it, etc., but the real question is was and is it right, was and is it moral, and by what authority--other than pure Machiavellian Realpolitik--do we have the right to invade a sovereign nation, destroy its infrastructure, depose its government and unleash unholy hell on its citizens?

If Herman Goering deserved to hang, so do the people who guided and implemented US policy toward invading Iraq. And we don't even need DNA evidence, we know who it was.