Confirmed:Miranda Rights Won't Be Read For Boston Bombing Suspect

[Anti Federalist]

Miranda Rights Won't Be Read For Boston Bombing Suspect: Justice Official

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/19/miranda-rights-boston-bombing-suspect_n_3120333.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

WASHINGTON -- A Justice Department official says the Boston Marathon bombing suspect will not be read his Miranda rights because the government is invoking a public safety exception.

That official and a second person briefed on the investigation says 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev will be questioned by a special interrogation team for high-value suspects. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to disclose the information publicly.

The public safety exception permits law enforcement officials to engage in a limited and focused unwarned interrogation of a suspect and allows the government to introduce the statement as evidence in court. The public safety exception is triggered when police officers have an objectively reasonable need to protect the police or the public from immediate danger.

[Anti Federalist]

Now, what remains unclear to me is this:

What happens if he does what anybody should do when in situation like this and shuts up?

Torture?

Beatings?

[muh_roads]

Now, what remains unclear to me is this:

What happens if he does what anybody should do when in situation like this and shuts up?

Torture?

Beatings?

If it needs to come to that, he will be brought to Guantanamo. This is what Guantanamo was created for. To torture outside of US law outside of our borders.

[pcosmar]

well if he survives the bullet holes and hours of blood loss,,
he will be tortured for information them shipped off to some hole as a "enemy combatant".

He has no trial coming anyway..his guilt has been decided.

:(
God have mercy on us all

[muh_roads]

...for high-value suspects.

Like this guy?
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIV9mR1CQAAFAbw.jpg

[RockEnds]

He's intubated and sedated. Just how much time can pass before this exception for immediate danger expires?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/boston-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


...Authorities have not publicly detailed the injuries sustained by the teen, but an official who has been briefed said Tsarnaev has been "intubated and sedated." The official also spoke on condition of anonymity.....

[Anti Federalist]

The best thing that can happen to him now is that he die in his drug induced coma.

[Aldanga]

So a guy in the coppers' custody is an immediate threat to the general public. That makes perfect sense.

[bolil]

ummm the rights don't need to be read because they are inalienable. Not being read Miranda 'rights' doesn't mean they cease to exist.

Looks like the word suspect is going the way of the words gay and war.

Suspect is being wrought into a synonym for known?

[puppetmaster]

Rendition

[BAllen]

What difference does it make? It's probably all staged, anyway. For all we know, the 'suspects' could be laughing it up with the government officials.

[jmdrake]

So a guy in the coppers' custody is an immediate threat to the general public. That makes perfect sense.

It's probably based on the idea that there could be unexploded bombs still out there. Anyway, more mind conditioned for us to accept further loss of liberties. Just tell your kids, if your ever arrested for anything keep your mouth shut. Don't say anything except "I want to talk to my lawyer." And perferably always have some lawyer in mind to talk to so they can't just send you in some incompetent boob.

[better-dead-than-fed]

It's probably based on the idea that there could be unexploded bombs still out there.

And that it's worth eroding the Bill of Rights to thwart a handful of murders.

[jmdrake]

And that it's worth eroding the Bill of Rights to thwart a handful of murders.

Oh, no disagreement there. Again people are under the illusion that one technicality always means the perp walks. Even in the Miranda, Mr. Miranda was eventually convicted on other evidence. If there is sooooo much evidence that this kid is the bomber, they could just interrogate him for 48 hours with the full knowledge that they weren't going to use any of those statements, or any evidence derived from those statements, against him and be done with it.

[better-dead-than-fed]

Oh, no disagreement there. Again people are under the illusion that one technicality always means the perp walks. Even in the Miranda, Mr. Miranda was eventually convicted on other evidence. If there is sooooo much evidence that this kid is the bomber, they could just interrogate him for 48 hours with the full knowledge that they weren't going to use any of those statements, or any evidence derived from those statements, against him and be done with it.

I agree, but I go further in saying that if we want a Bill of Rights, we have to be willing to let some guilty people walk.

[donnay]

He's intubated and sedated. Just how much time can pass before this exception for immediate danger expires?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/boston-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

That's torture right there. I am sure they are pumping him with morphine to sedate him.

[angelatc]

The best thing that can happen to him now is that he die in his drug induced coma.

I really don't care too much what happens to this guy. But if he dies in a coma, the conspiracy crowd is going to go apeshit crazier, and that's something I do care about.

[angelatc]

So a guy in the coppers' custody is an immediate threat to the general public. That makes perfect sense.


It might make sense if the guys had been planting bombs all over the city for a week or so, and were detonating them sporadically for the 3 days after the marathon. But they weren't.

[donnay]

It's probably based on the idea that there could be unexploded bombs still out there. Anyway, more mind conditioned for us to accept further loss of liberties. Just tell your kids, if your ever arrested for anything keep your mouth shut. Don't say anything except "I want to talk to my lawyer." And perferably always have some lawyer in mind to talk to so they can't just send you in some incompetent boob.


Even when they are sent to Gitmo? The buzz talk this morning is that he should be sent to Gitmo. We know if he goes to Gitmo he'll admit to assassinating JFK after they torture him.

[donnay]

I really don't care too much what happens to this guy. But if he dies in a coma, the conspiracy crowd is going to go apeshit crazier, and that's something I do care about.

If's astounding the compassion you have for your fellow human being. But I know you believe the 'official story' and therefore this kid, in your mind, is an animal for what he allegedly did, right?

[angelatc]

If's astounding the compassion you have for your fellow human being. But I know you believe the 'official story' and therefore this kid, in your mind, is an animal for what he allegedly did, right?


I want him to get a trial, if that's what you're asking.

[jmdrake]

Even when they are sent to Gitmo? The buzz talk this morning is that he should be sent to Gitmo. We know if he goes to Gitmo he'll admit to assassinating JFK after they torture him.

Thankfully Gitmo is still the exception and not the rule. Everyday people get screwed over by talking to the police when they don't have too. If you're being tortured in Gitmo...well obviously you've reached a point where nobody cares about your rights anyway.

[donnay]

I want him to get a trial, if that's what you're asking.


And you think this trial will be fair? This was trial by media--he is already convicted and may get a death sentence very soon. If he dies many people will cheer just like the idiots in Boston who gleefully cheered his arrest and apprehension. A good majority of people will be relieved if he dies so their taxes are not wasted on a silly trial and some bleeding heart shyster gets him off.

[angelatc]

And you think this trial will be fair? This was trial by media--he is already convicted and may get a death sentence very soon. If he dies many people will cheer just like the idiots in Boston who gleefully cheered his arrest and apprehension. A good majority of people will be relieved if he dies so their taxes are not wasted on a silly trial and some bleeding heart shyster gets him off.


OJ got a not guilty verdict. But you don't think he even stand trial?

[donnay]

OJ got a not guilty verdict. But you don't think he even stand trial?

Oh no, he was considered the suspect and he was arrested and brought to trial. He got the best attorneys money can by--the dream team.

I am all for jury nullification.


"Better one hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be condemned." ~ Thomas Jefferson

[angelatc]

Oh no, he was considered the suspect and he was arrested and brought to trial. He got the best attorneys money can by--the dream team.

I am all for jury nullification.


"Better one hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be condemned." ~ Thomas Jefferson


Jury nullification? You think the jury should find that the law that prohibits detonating explosives in crowds should be nullified?

[silverhandorder]

I don't think there should be exception for terrorism. Process him the same way. There isn't that much difference to suggest we would lose valuable information if we try him as a criminal.

Disclaimer free marker police and courts would do a better job.

[donnay]

Jury nullification? You think the jury should find that the law that prohibits detonating explosives in crowds should be nullified?


The American people have a double standard. How many times has our government ordered explosives to be detonated in a crowd overseas?

A fully informed jury...not a fully controlled jury.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." ~ Thomas Jefferson

[otherone]

At some point in time, there was a presumption of innocence in this country. The burden of proof is on the state. None of the conjecture we've been fed is material to what actually occurred. The trial should be public, but it won't be, under the aegis of "national security". The kid will be black-bagged.
Conspiracy theories grow like mushrooms...only when they feed us shit and keep us in the dark.

[donnay]

I don't think there should be exception for terrorism. Process him the same way. There isn't that much difference to suggest we would lose valuable information if we try him as a criminal.

Disclaimer free marker police and courts would do a better job.



So you are okay with mercenaries? Those loyal to a paycheck rather than justice?

[angelatc]

The American people have a double standard. How many times has our government ordered explosives to be detonated in a crowd overseas?

A fully informed jury...not a fully controlled jury.

Wow. So you really think that it should be ok to blow up bombs in crowds, as long as you have a reason?

[angelatc]

At some point in time, there was a presumption of innocence in this country. The burden of proof is on the state. None of the conjecture we've been fed is material to what actually occurred. The trial should be public, but it won't be, under the aegis of "national security". The kid will be black-bagged.



I hope you're wrong, but I am sad that I am not sure you are wrong, and in fear that you are probably right.

[donnay]

Wow. So you really think that it should be ok to blow up bombs in crowds, as long as you have a reason?


Angela, you should have been a prosecutor, you definitely have a knack for twisting what people say, but I digress.

We are creating all kinds of animosity around the globe. Sooner or later we will have to deal with it, because we continue to kick a hornet's nest. If we want any form of peace we have to learn to truly lead by example.

I am not for anyone detonating any bombs on anyone. Nevertheless, our very own government does it everyday and people gleefully cheer it on!

[Brett85]

Angela, you should have been a prosecutor, you definitely have a knack for twisting what people say, but I digress.

We are creating all kinds of animosity around the globe. Sooner or later we will have to deal with it, because we continue to kick a hornet's nest. If we want any form of peace we have to learn to truly lead by example.

I am not for anyone detonating any bombs on anyone. Nevertheless, our very own government does it everyday and people gleefully cheer it on!

That's true, and I'm all in favor of changing our foreign policy and just leaving the rest of the world alone. However, the difference between this bombing and the drone bombings are that this bomber intentionally killed innocent people, whereas in the drone bombings innocent people are killed, but it's unintentional.

I'm not justifying it, just explaining the difference.

[MisfitToy]

I don't think he's going to die for this, not by anyone's else's hand anyway. He's not a leader, he's an example and it would be foolish to make him anything more through execution. Suicide is a very convenient option here.

I think making this a public trial would invoke political retribution the public isn't aware of because God only knows what web our government has woven to cause this act.

[WarNoMore]

That's true, and I'm all in favor of changing our foreign policy and just leaving the rest of the world alone. However, the difference between this bombing and the drone bombings are that this bomber intentionally killed innocent people, whereas in the drone bombings innocent people are killed, but it's unintentional.

I wouldn't say they're unintentional. It's an intentional choice to order a drone strike on a wedding or a school, where many more innocent people will be killed than "guilty" people. The policy deems civilian deaths as being acceptable. Civilians are simply collateral damage.

[donnay]

That's true, and I'm all in favor of changing our foreign policy and just leaving the rest of the world alone. However, the difference between this bombing and the drone bombings are that this bomber intentionally killed innocent people, whereas in the drone bombings innocent people are killed, but it's unintentional.

I'm not justifying it, just explaining the difference.

Your explanation is a true definition of cognizant dissonance. Sadly many people think this is okay.

[silverhandorder]

So you are okay with mercenaries? Those loyal to a paycheck rather than justice?

Yes. Far better then police. Would not need to shut down Boston to get the kid too. Brother would be alive as well and being questioned.

[otherone]

I hope you're wrong, but I am sad that I am not sure you are wrong, and in fear that you are probably right.

The state's primary concern in handling terrorism is to keep it's own dealings shrouded in secrecy. Conspiracy theories aside, the Central Intelligence Agency is involved politically all over the world. 'Tis a fact, jack. There is no way they will allow a magnifying glass to scrutinize any of their activity in Chechnya. Whether this kid is innocent or guilty, alive or dead, whether the people of Boston get justice, whether foreign combatants or peaceful citizens have their Rights suspended due to "public safety", and even whether or not the CIA is actually behind the scenes in Chechnya... all of this is not important to the state. The kid will disappear, and the sheep will all baaaa in unison that the gubment knows so much more than us stupid common sheep, so's it's ok.

[angelatc]

Angela, you should have been a prosecutor, you definitely have a knack for twisting what people say, but I digress.

We are creating all kinds of animosity around the globe. Sooner or later we will have to deal with it, because we continue to kick a hornet's nest. If we want any form of peace we have to learn to truly lead by example.

I am not for anyone detonating any bombs on anyone. Nevertheless, our very own government does it everyday and people gleefully cheer it on!


Sure, we are all in agreement that this is probably blowback of some sort. But that doesn't make it any less of a crime.

I saw this quote today: (http://redstateeclectic.typepad.com/redstate_commentary/2013/04/if-youre-trying-to-kill-your-way-to-a-solution-youre-going-to-upset-people.html)
“We’re seeing that blowback,” retired Marine Gen. James Cartwright, Obama’s former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, recently told the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations. “If you’re trying to kill your way to a solution, no matter how precise you are, you’re going to upset people even if they’re not targeted.”

But the part that scares me is that in context, and if I had to guess at the inflection, this is his way of dismissing the attacks on Americans as collateral damage, and not a call for reexamining our foreign policy.

But that doesn't mean I think the bomber should not be prosecuted for his actions, because I absolutely do. But I don't believe in the death penalty, either.

[Brett85]

Your explanation is a true definition of cognizant dissonance. Sadly many people think this is okay.

When did I say it was "ok?" You accused someone else of twisting your words, and now you're twisting my words. I'm not saying that the drone bombings are ok. I'm just explaining that it's not the exact same thing as someone intentionally killing innocent people in the U.S with a bomb.

[pcosmar]

Sure, we are all in agreement that this is probably blowback of some sort.


I am certainly not sure of that.

It is possible,, and I have not discounted that possibility,, but I doubt it.

I think it is meant to look that way,, but there is NO clear motive..

I believe this was done to expand the power of the state. Period.

[angelatc]

That's true, and I'm all in favor of changing our foreign policy and just leaving the rest of the world alone. However, the difference between this bombing and the drone bombings are that this bomber intentionally killed innocent people, whereas in the drone bombings innocent people are killed, but it's unintentional.

I'm not justifying it, just explaining the difference.

I know that a lot of people see it that way, but I really don't. This same government will prosecute parents for negligence when accidents turn to tragedy without blinking an eye, but shrugs and implies that it is merely unfortunate that civilians are torn to shreds when they drop bombs.

Have a toddler that gets a hold of a gun, plays with matches and firecrackers, or wanders out in front of a train? You're going to need a lawyer.

Kill kids with collateral damage from air strikes? Oh well.

I would argue that once you are aware that damage is occurring, then after that it should be deemed intentional.

[angelatc]

I am certainly not sure of that.

It is possible,, and I have not discounted that possibility,, but I doubt it.

I think it is meant to look that way,, but their is NO clear motive..

I believe this was done to expand the power of the state. Period.


They don't need to create a scenario to expand the power of the state. All they have to do is let people be human, and take advantage of the situations that arise naturally.

[donnay]

Yes. Far better then police. Would not need to shut down Boston to get the kid too. Brother would be alive as well and being questioned.


So what was members of Craft International doing in Boston that day, you suppose?

http://i.imgur.com/jCgAf8Y.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/jd3Gf4u.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/puvQAoAh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TEOOoHX.jpg

http://images.christianpost.com/full/59809/boston-marathon-2013-bombings.jpg


FBI: "Pay no attention to the men in Khaki pants with black backpacks or sidepacks. Pay attention to whom we told you to pay attention too."

[donnay]

When did I say it was "ok?" You accused someone else of twisting your words, and now you're twisting my words. I'm not saying that the drone bombings are ok. I'm just explaining that it's not the exact same thing as someone intentionally killing innocent people in the U.S with a bomb.


I said your explanation is a true definition of cognizant dissonance. How did I twist that?

[angelatc]

I've already explained about 100 x's that I suspect those guys are either undercover cops wearing promotional hats or they're private security guys hired specifically to patrol the event. Fat lot of good that did.

Why do you find it shocking that there would be police dressed as civilians in the crowd?

[donnay]

I've already explained about 100 x's that I suspect those guys are either undercover cops wearing promotional hats or they're private security guys hired specifically to patrol the event. Fat lot of good that did.

Why do you find it shocking that there would be police dressed as civilians in the crowd?


You suspect or is that your theory?

It's not shocking at all, it seems to be the norm sadly.

[angelatc]

You suspect or is that your theory?

It's not shocking at all, it seems to be the norm sadly.

Well, i guess it is my theory. I don't see anything especially nefarious about having undercover officers patrolling crowds. I think it's a huge waste of money, but that's about it.

[pcosmar]

They don't need to create a scenario to expand the power of the state. All they have to do is let people be human, and take advantage of the situations that arise naturally.

Then why did the Government attack My Carmel, when they could have simply picked up David Koresh on any of his many and regular trips into town?

And why did the Federal Government Blow up the Federal Building in OKC.
McVeigh could not have set the demolition charges Inside the building. That would have required security clearance.
The truck bomb was theatrical cover for the demolition charges.. That was all a Government Operation.

and before you say they wouldn't do that.. Operation Northwoods was a planed government operation. Kennedy,,to his credit, rejected it..
But it was planned.

[donnay]

Well, i guess it is my theory. I don't see anything especially nefarious about having undercover officers patrolling crowds. I think it's a huge waste of money, but that's about it.


It's a good cover for a drill to go live.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/8a9074d825084de14275e4498262c0b4/tumblr_mlcglhIfVv1s535oro1_500.jpg

[silverhandorder]

What are these pictures supposed to tell me? Look like security to me. Should there not be security?

[silverhandorder]

Then why did the Government attack My Carmel, when they could have simply picked up David Koresh on any of his many and regular trips into town?

And why did the Federal Government Blow up the Federal Building in OKC.
McVeigh could not have set the demolition charges Inside the building. That would have required security clearance.
The truck bomb was theatrical cover for the demolition charges.. That was all a Government Operation.

and before you say they wouldn't do that.. Operation Northwoods was a planed government operation. Kennedy,,to his credit, rejected it..
But it was planned.
Slow down there. No one is going to spend the time to comb through your conspiracy theories. How about we talk about the subject of the thread.

[donnay]

What are these pictures supposed to tell me? Look like security to me. Should there not be security?


They are telling you to think outside the box. All those security people had black backpacks. The alleged bomb was a pressure cooker in a black backpack. EVERYONE IS SUSPECT, not whom the authorities say is suspect.

[tod evans]

However, the difference between this bombing and the drone bombings are that this bomber intentionally killed innocent people, whereas in the drone bombings innocent people are killed, but it's unintentional.

I'm not justifying it, just explaining the difference.

So you're stating that you believe civilian death by drone is "unintentional"...........Would you go so far as to state that you believe it's permissible for our government to execute civilians unintentionally just so long as they blow up their intended target?

Me, I don't find this behavior acceptable!

Especially given the fact that we are not at war.

In fact I hold that the murder of civilians in other countries by drone should be an indictable offence punishable by death.

[silverhandorder]

They are telling you to think outside the box. All those security people had black backpacks. The alleged bomb was a pressure cooker in a black backpack. EVERYONE IS SUSPECT, not whom the authorities say is suspect.

No you are out of your mind if you think that. There is more evidence to suggest the brothers did it. Until you come up with a probable cause what you are doing is baseless speculation. It is ordinary to have security at events. Just because their uniform are similar to what the suspects used does not mean they should be the suspects.

[otherone]

So you're stating that you believe civilian death by drone is "unintentional"...........Would you go so far as to state that you believe it's permissible for our government to execute civilians unintentionally just so long as they blow up their intended target?


They are actually agricultural drones. The bombs they drop are seeds that grow more terrorists. It's the Cycle of Terror, beautiful, in it's way.

[otherone]

There is more evidence to suggest the brothers did it.

Matthew 23:24
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

[silverhandorder]

So you're stating that you believe civilian death by drone is "unintentional"...........Would you go so far as to state that you believe it's permissible for our government to execute civilians unintentionally just so long as they blow up their intended target?

Me, I don't find this behavior acceptable!

Especially given the fact that we are not at war.

In fact I hold that the murder of civilians in other countries by drone should be an indictable offence punishable by death.
Yes drones are murder of civilians. They are immoral on the same level as terrorism. However you don't run the country, the government does. These terrorists are as bad as the government and deserve no sympathy. Just because someone thinks the terrorists should be stopped and prevented does not mean they support the war.

Lastly there are a lot of people that do think our bombing of civilians is moral and the terrorist acts perpetrated against us are immoral. They are hypocrites but they are still right that terrorist acts are immoral.

[donnay]

No you are out of your mind if you think that. There is more evidence to suggest the brothers did it. Until you come up with a probable cause what you are doing is baseless speculation. It is ordinary to have security at events. Just because their uniform are similar to what the suspects used does not mean they should be the suspects.


Yes, I am out of my mind for not buying the government narrative. Government is never wrong, they care about the people and they would never hurt another human being, intentionally, to garner more control. <s>

[silverhandorder]

Matthew 23:24
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.


I get it you not happy with how they handled the investigation. In the end they did catch the terrorist now you can let all your conspiracy theories die. But knowing most conspiracy theorists this is a call to redouble the effort to spread the "truth".

[donnay]

Yes drones are murder of civilians. They are immoral on the same level as terrorism. However you don't run the country, the government does. These terrorists are as bad as the government and deserve no sympathy. Just because someone thinks the terrorists should be stopped and prevented does not mean they support the war.

Lastly there are a lot of people that do think our bombing of civilians is moral and the terrorist acts perpetrated against us are immoral. They are hypocrites but they are still right that terrorist acts are immoral.


Wow! That hurt my head to read. :eek:

[tod evans]

Yes drones are murder of civilians. They are immoral on the same level as terrorism. However you don't run the country, the government does. These terrorists are as bad as the government and deserve no sympathy. Just because someone thinks the terrorists should be stopped and prevented does not mean they support the war.

Lastly there are a lot of people that do think our bombing of civilians is moral and the terrorist acts perpetrated against us are immoral. They are hypocrites but they are still right that terrorist acts are immoral.

How in the world did you extract this from what I typed?

[donnay]

I get it you not happy with how they handled the investigation. In the end they did catch the terrorist now you can let all your conspiracy theories die. But knowing most conspiracy theorists this is a call to redouble the effort to spread the "truth".

You know, beyond a reasonable doubt that the people apprehended are terrorists?

Wow, we don't need courts and juries--we need people, like you, to protect us from the terrorist. Problem solved. <s>

[silverhandorder]

Yes, I am out of my mind for not buying the government narrative. Government is never wrong, they care about the people and they would never hurt another human being, intentionally, to garner more control. <s>

I don't believe the government. I also don't think that every single terrorist attack or mass murder is a government inside job. Right now you are spinning worse then government ever did. I see your crazy and paranoid tendencies as more of a danger to me then official narrative. Official narrative does not change things as they are. But you on other hand polarizing people in a bad way. People that would be receptive to ideas of blowback and immorality of war are to scared to talk to you because of how crazy you sound.

You are just one big distraction from important conversations.

[otherone]

I get it you not happy with how they handled the investigation. In the end they did catch the terrorist now you can let all your conspiracy theories die.

Wow....if TV sez it, it must be true...no my friend, you don't get it.

[silverhandorder]

How in the world did you extract this from what I typed?

You keep talking about what our government is doing overseas. I addressed that. Anything extra are my thoughts.

You know, beyond a reasonable doubt that the people apprehended are terrorists?

Wow, we don't need courts and juries--we need people, like you, to protect us from the terrorist. Problem solved. <s>
I don't believe in US justice system. Anyone can come up with their theories. Mine is more likely.

[silverhandorder]

Wow....if TV sez it, it must be true...no my friend, you don't get it.

What conspiracy theories saying is not the truth. There is more spin then just government did it.

[Dr.3D]

Here is the problem I have with how they are treating this person.

1. At this point in time, he is innocent. (he has not been found guilty in a court of law)
2. Since he is innocent, he deserves all of the rights anyone is supposed to have.

He has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law and thus they have no reason to deprive him of his Miranda Rights.

If our government can just willy-nilly go around depriving people of their rights without even having gone through the due process of law, that would mean there is no due process and they can bypass the law anytime they feel the need. This is wrong and everybody no matter what the government may think about them, should have their rights to the due process of law kept intact. There can be no exceptions just because someone is charged with a crime the government claims is special.

[donnay]

I don't believe the government. I also don't think that every single terrorist attack or mass murder is a government inside job. Right now you are spinning worse then government ever did. I see your crazy and paranoid tendencies as more of a danger to me then official narrative. Official narrative does not change things as they are. But you on other hand polarizing people in a bad way. People that would be receptive to ideas of blowback and immorality of war are to scared to talk to you because of how crazy you sound.

You are just one big distraction from important conversations.


Yes I am out of my cotton-picking mind. I want more liberty than security!! I want unabashed, unbridled, unobstructed liberty for all!!!

How about more legislation on gun powder because the alleged terrorists used gun powder. How about more censorship and control over the internet--since the alleged terrorist used the internet to converse and learn how to make bombs. It's all about control buddy boy, quite fooling yourself.

How about more encroachment on our liberties--because that is exactly what is going to happen. That is the Cui Bono government has in all of this.

[donnay]

Here is the problem I have with how they are treating this person.

1. At this point in time, he is innocent. (he has not been found guilty in a court of law)
2. Since he is innocent, he deserves all of the rights anyone is supposed to have.

He has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law and thus they have no reason to deprive him of his Miranda Rights.

If our government can just willy-nilly go around depriving people of their rights without even having gone through the due process of law, that would mean there is no due process and they can bypass the law anytime they feel the need. This is wrong and everybody no matter what the government may think about them, should have their rights to the due process of law kept intact. There can be no exceptions just because someone is charged with a crime the government claims is special.

Read it and weep...

PATRIOT ACT Broken Down

The Patriot Act permits:
•Secret FBI and police searches of your home and office.
•Secret government wiretaps on your phone, computer and Internet activity.
•Secret investigations of your bank records, credit cards and other financial records.
•Secret investigation of your library and book activities.
•Secret examination of your medical, travel and business records.
•The freezing of funds and assets without prior notice or appeal.
•The creation of secret "watch lists" that ban those named from air and other travel.

Under the Patriot Act your are guilty without any right to prove you are innocent.

According to George W. Bush: "The constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper."

Original source: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=131723721&blogID=278547627

SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new defifnition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn't broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.

Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation.

SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever."

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power of "surveillance without a court order."

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime."

*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.

The government states that they must look at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners' and medical examiners' operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton's special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures – has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled "Providing Material Support to Terrorism." The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates "lifetime parole" (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.



C-Live, Love Oppose Evil. Novus Ordo Seclorum.


Source:
http://libertyforlife.com/law/patriot_act_broken_down.htm

[otherone]

Here is the problem I have with how they are treating this person.


Not reading someone their Rights is not the same as denying someone their Rights.

[Dr.3D]

Not reading someone their Rights is not the same as denying someone their Rights.

Treating someone differently from everyone else is wrong no matter what anybody says.

[Dr.3D]

Read it and weep...
~snip

I know, and it's just wrong.

How can they tell if someone is involved in terrorist activities if they don't prove it in a court of law?

[silverhandorder]

Yes I am out of my cotton-picking mind. I want more liberty than security!! I want unabashed, unbridled, unobstructed liberty for all!!!

How about more legislation on gun powder because the alleged terrorists used gun powder. How about more censorship and control over the internet--since the alleged terrorist used the internet to converse and learn how to make bombs. It's all about control buddy boy, quite fooling yourself.

How about more encroachment on our liberties--because that is exactly what is going to happen. That is the Cui Bono government has in all of this.

What you want is not relevant to your conspiracy theories. I want liberty over security as well. However I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.

[donnay]

What you want is not relevant to your conspiracy theories. I want liberty over security as well. However I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.


No, you do not subscribe to stepping out of the box and thinking on your own. Thanks for admitting it.

[donnay]

I know, and it's just wrong.

How can they tell if someone is involved in terrorist activities if they don't prove it in a court of law?


They don't care, that is the bottom line. Before too long we will all be labeled enemy combatants for simply asking questions.

[Dr.3D]

No, you do not subscribe to stepping out of the box and thinking on your own. Thanks for admitting it.
Yeah, those who can't do that wouldn't be able to solve any crimes that involved conspirators. Police investigators are conspiracy theorists.

[Occam's Banana]

That's true, and I'm all in favor of changing our foreign policy and just leaving the rest of the world alone. However, the difference between this bombing and the drone bombings are that this bomber intentionally killed innocent people, whereas in the drone bombings innocent people are killed, but it's unintentional.

I'm not justifying it, just explaining the difference.

So what? This is an utterly trivial difference - that is, it is a difference that makes no difference at all.

The terror bombers and the drone bombers both know that innocents will die as a direct consequence of their actions - and they both go ahead and do it anyway.

Terror bombers (like the Boston bomber) kill people indiscriminantly and do not have a particular reason for wanting any specific one of their victims to die.

Drone bombers also kill people they do not have any particular reason for wanting dead (exactly like the terror bomber does) - and they do so in addition to trying to kill some specific person(s) they DO want to die.

That is why they are both vile & despicable murderers. The fact that the drone bombers are deliberately trying to kill some particular person(s) is no more relevant to this than the color of the clothes they wear. And if the difference actually is important, it would make the drone bombers even worse than the terror bombers - since the drone bombers are knowingly doing exactly the same thing as the terror bombers (i.e., killing innocent people) while also doing something else of extremely dubious morality (namely: assassination).

[tod evans]

I know, and it's just wrong.

How can they tell if someone is involved in terrorist activities if they don't prove it in a court of law?

That's the point, mere accusations are enough to trigger the effects of this fine piece of legislation..

Don't worry though "Our-Government" would never abuse this type of power....

[Aratus]

TACITLY THIS IS CORRECT

Read it and weep...

PATRIOT ACT Broken Down

The Patriot Act permits:
•Secret FBI and police searches of your home and office.
•Secret government wiretaps on your phone, computer and Internet activity.
•Secret investigations of your bank records, credit cards and other financial records.
•Secret investigation of your library and book activities.
•Secret examination of your medical, travel and business records.
•The freezing of funds and assets without prior notice or appeal.
•The creation of secret "watch lists" that ban those named from air and other travel.

Under the Patriot Act your are guilty without any right to prove you are innocent.

According to George W. Bush: "The constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper."

Original source: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=131723721&blogID=278547627

SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new defifnition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn't broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.

Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation.

SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever."

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power of "surveillance without a court order."

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime."

*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.

The government states that they must look at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners' and medical examiners' operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton's special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures – has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled "Providing Material Support to Terrorism." The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates "lifetime parole" (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities.



C-Live, Love Oppose Evil. Novus Ordo Seclorum.


Source:
http://libertyforlife.com/law/patriot_act_broken_down.htm

[Aratus]

most curiously we all have more inalienable rights that we can manifest in public than
either the UNION or the CONFEDERACY during the height of our great CIVIL WAR and
we clearly are freer than many who lived through Stalin's USSR or Hitler's 3rd Reich.

[better-dead-than-fed]

Here is the problem I have with how they are treating this person.

1. At this point in time, he is innocent. (he has not been found guilty in a court of law)
2. Since he is innocent, he deserves all of the rights anyone is supposed to have.

He has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law and thus they have no reason to deprive him of his Miranda Rights.

If our government can just willy-nilly go around depriving people of their rights without even having gone through the due process of law, that would mean there is no due process and they can bypass the law anytime they feel the need. This is wrong and everybody no matter what the government may think about them, should have their rights to the due process of law kept intact. There can be no exceptions just because someone is charged with a crime the government claims is special.

They can bypass the law anytime they feel the need. They can imprison a person without probable cause. The law (Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=8&sqi=2&ved=0CFUQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uscourts.gov%2Fuscourts%2FRul esAndPolicies%2Frules%2F2010%2520Rules%2FCriminal% 2520Procedure.pdf&ei=JSN0UezvCoXh2QWLs4HwCQ&usg=AFQjCNGtntTTRp9Eqj3V25yaSDtY2KSrOA&sig2=8hxFGPib4HeK-gwnZuNNIg&bvm=bv.45512109,d.b2I) 32.1(b)(1)) requires them to hold a "preliminary hearing" to determine whether there's probable cause, but they can deny him that hearing and simply create a record falsely stating that he "waived" the hearing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5ZYXb_HdIQhUkU5OVV3R0NOZjA/edit?usp=sharing) (even when transcripts show he did nothing of the sort (https://docs.google.com/file/d/1r9fUnCs3xPpOb6_QaWkFRHwIhWRMy5rOhnCaKG8pdh6YktXG5 VqTUEaM_hIM/edit?usp=sharing)). They can do it in broad daylight, and it can be reported on this forum (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?395877-Federal-Judge-Glenda-E-Edmonds-Falsifying-Court-Records), and no one will mind. When they see that, and they are watching, they know they can get away with it again.

[tod evans]

most curiously we have more inalienable rights that we can manifest in public than
either the UNION or the COFEDERACY during the height of our great CIVIL WAR and
we clearly are freer than many who lived through Stalin's USSR or Hitler's 3rd Reich.

Some folks are more free than some of them were, try explaining how "free" he is to some poor inmate serving a 40+ year beef for weed...

The modern day Jews are those who consume "drugs" and our gulags are chock full...In fact I'm willing to bet our fine country has given those WW-2 villains a run for their money as far as number of citizens persecuted/prosecuted..

The saddest part is even here on RPF it's really easy to find folks to argue differently.

[better-dead-than-fed]

Not reading someone their Rights is not the same as denying someone their Rights.

Admitting unwarned statements at trial is the same as denying someone their Rights.

[better-dead-than-fed]

we clearly are freer than many who lived through Stalin's USSR or Hitler's 3rd Reich.

If you believe that, it's only because your number hasn't come up yet.

[Aratus]

Curiously enough, I feel more Americans were freer between 1865 and 1875 than
between 1845 and 1865, and I feel that in the last 50 years we were more free in
the 1990s as a decade than either earlier or since then. We have only ten years for
the fragile time between the Cold War and the War on Terror. We are almost a total
police state but like the time~frame between the end of Reconstruction up until the
start of the Civil Rights movement, we have our moments of happiness and freedom.

[Anti Federalist]

The whole world is the battlefield in the GWOT.

So, therefore...


“If civilians are killed in an attack on a military installation, it is certainly regrettable, but I will not morally blame the IRA for it.” - Congressman Peter King R-NY

[Aratus]

(up above... I misspelled Confederacy)


the 1960s Warren court Miranda decision tends
to restrain the police from a situational fervor...

[jmdrake]

At some point in time, there was a presumption of innocence in this country. The burden of proof is on the state. None of the conjecture we've been fed is material to what actually occurred. The trial should be public, but it won't be, under the aegis of "national security". The kid will be black-bagged.
Conspiracy theories grow like mushrooms...only when they feed us shit and keep us in the dark.


The state's primary concern in handling terrorism is to keep it's own dealings shrouded in secrecy. Conspiracy theories aside, the Central Intelligence Agency is involved politically all over the world. 'Tis a fact, jack. There is no way they will allow a magnifying glass to scrutinize any of their activity in Chechnya. Whether this kid is innocent or guilty, alive or dead, whether the people of Boston get justice, whether foreign combatants or peaceful citizens have their Rights suspended due to "public safety", and even whether or not the CIA is actually behind the scenes in Chechnya... all of this is not important to the state. The kid will disappear, and the sheep will all baaaa in unison that the gubment knows so much more than us stupid common sheep, so's it's ok.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to otherone again.

Glad to see that somebody gets it! Folks, forget for a minute about whether one particular "conspiracy angle" or another in this story is true. There is enough admitted to be true to cause serious concern!

1) The older brother was already on a terror watchlist and had been interviewed by the FBI.
2) The older brother should have been deported after he was convicted of a domestic assualt. He wasn't.
3) Post that conviction, and post being on the watchlist, he went back and forth to Russia several times for months at a time. Immigrants in his situation, having a legal cloud over their head that could cause them to be deported, often don't go home even to go to important events like weddings and funerals because they are afraid that they won't be let back in. Yet he didn't have that fear. Why?
4) The "catch and release" of the Saudi national. Glenn Beck, no friend of conspiracy theorists (except his own convoluted theories) is looking into that.
5) The younger brother worked as a lifeguard for a former marine who had interrogated prisoners at Gitmo.

Something stinks about the story. And it could very well be "clandestine ops gone bad." But if so, that needs to be exposed!

[Aratus]

jimdrake --- they are either totally brazen and "folie a deux" as the French would say
or they got their guns & backpacks from somewhere and are indeed part of something.

[Brett85]

So you're stating that you believe civilian death by drone is "unintentional"...........Would you go so far as to state that you believe it's permissible for our government to execute civilians unintentionally just so long as they blow up their intended target?

No. You're imagining that I said something that I didn't actually say. When did I ever say that I supported the drone bombings? Is it really not possible to oppose the drone bombings without saying that our government is intentionally murdering innocent people overseas for no reason at all?

[affa]

No. You're imagining that I said something that I didn't actually say.

That you of all people are calling someone else out on that is pretty funny, since that's your sop.

[PaulConventionWV]

Hey AF,

You mentioned a couple of days ago that you were beginning to think that the government staging of the Boston bombings was less likely because they hadn't trotted out a suspect and had the story already lined up. In light of recent events, especially the state of martial law that Watertown has been subjected to, have you changed your mind?

[Aratus]

if you have ever looked at the Hollywood style moralizing and strategy talk inside the classic b+w
TV series TWELVE O'CLOCK HIGH, our drones are more accurate than our old ww2 era bombers.

[Brett85]

That you of all people are calling someone else out on that is pretty funny, since that's your sop.

Thanks for reminding me why you're on my ignore list.

[Petar]

They can bypass the law anytime they feel the need. They can imprison a person without probable cause. The law (Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=8&sqi=2&ved=0CFUQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uscourts.gov%2Fuscourts%2FRul esAndPolicies%2Frules%2F2010%2520Rules%2FCriminal% 2520Procedure.pdf&ei=JSN0UezvCoXh2QWLs4HwCQ&usg=AFQjCNGtntTTRp9Eqj3V25yaSDtY2KSrOA&sig2=8hxFGPib4HeK-gwnZuNNIg&bvm=bv.45512109,d.b2I) 32.1(b)(1)) requires them to hold a "preliminary hearing" to determine whether there's probable cause, but they can deny him that hearing and simply create a record falsely stating that he "waived" the hearing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5ZYXb_HdIQhUkU5OVV3R0NOZjA/edit?usp=sharing) (even when transcripts show he did nothing of the sort (https://docs.google.com/file/d/1r9fUnCs3xPpOb6_QaWkFRHwIhWRMy5rOhnCaKG8pdh6YktXG5 VqTUEaM_hIM/edit?usp=sharing)). They can do it in broad daylight, and it can be reported on this forum (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?395877-Federal-Judge-Glenda-E-Edmonds-Falsifying-Court-Records), and no one will mind. When they see that, and they are watching, they know they can get away with it again.

Honestly man, the only power that I have to do anything about your situation is to try to encourage you to do things like document your own story in an investigative media style and get it out there.

If you were willing to do that, then maybe I could help you build a website and do some video editing or things along those lines, but that is about all the power that I feel that I personally have.

[Aratus]

PaulConventionWV --- the authorities say that they released the photos of their top 2 suspects because people on the internet
were doing amature sleuthing. this could be a string of events tied together by a governmental & public hysteria and concern.
AF knows that many of us are not ruling out a Kafka~esque maze of coincidences and curious connections that came together...

[Anti Federalist]

Hey AF,

You mentioned a couple of days ago that you were beginning to think that the government staging of the Boston bombings was less likely because they hadn't trotted out a suspect and had the story already lined up. In light of recent events, especially the state of martial law that Watertown has been subjected to, have you changed your mind?

I'm still taking in facts as they come in...my jury is out right now, but as is usually the case with these things, there are enough government connections that the incident is starting to stink.

[Aratus]

this is why I made the remark elsewhere that if AF somehow gets to the US senate then Rand Paul will not be so isolated
and alone when wanting to speak at great length for longer than ten hours at a clip on the senate floor. if only some of us
could get to D.C and carry on for Doctor Ron or even give Rand some support when he has to take a stand in a major way.

[LibForestPaul]

Treating someone differently from everyone else is wrong no matter what anybody says.

This here.
further. The Supreme Court has ruled that those taken into custody must be informed of their rights. Those not informed of their rights can NOT have their testimony used in a court of law. I have no problem with the first part of the statement as long as the second part is upheld as well.

[Brett85]

this is why I made the remark elsewhere that if AF somehow gets to the US senate then Rand Paul will not be so isolated
and alone when wanting to speak at great length for longer than ten hours at a clip on the senate floor. if only some of us
could get to D.C and carry on for Doctor Ron or even give Rand some support when he has to take a stand in a major way.

AF would make Rand Paul look like a Communist.

[Dr.3D]

This here.
further. The Supreme Court has ruled that those taken into custody must be informed of their rights. Those not informed of their rights can NOT have their testimony used in a court of law. I have no problem with the first part of the statement as long as the second part is upheld as well.
Well, if they decide to send him to a military tribunal instead of a court of law, the second part would be moot anyway.

[Aratus]

the fact that we historically have had military tribunals on US soil reaching
into the realm that normally would be & ought to be civilian is not lost on me.

[tod evans]

No. You're imagining that I said something that I didn't actually say.

Actually I quoted you, but okay.



When did I ever say that I supported the drone bombings?

You didn't, I asked you a question that you failed to answer.



Is it really not possible to oppose the drone bombings without saying that our government is intentionally murdering innocent people overseas for no reason at all?

No, it's possible to do both, but I believe the person who does is being intellectually dishonest with himself.

[MelissaWV]

This here.
further. The Supreme Court has ruled that those taken into custody must be informed of their rights. Those not informed of their rights can NOT have their testimony used in a court of law. I have no problem with the first part of the statement as long as the second part is upheld as well.

I still have a problem with it.

It is the police (Feds, etc.) deciding that they have enough evidence that they can mistreat this guy, use tricks to get him to confess, and they don't really care because the statements can be tossed and they have enough to convinct.

This is dangerous on both fronts.

First, in other cases, the police might think this and promptly find that they were wrong and there was not enough slam-dunk evidence. The suspect goes free, even if they were guilty, even if they confessed, because the cops figured the rules don't apply in a slam-dunk.

Second, it opens the door for disturbing things being done to a suspect since the case is all but wrapped up already. You're already convicted; we only need you to snitch on everyone else. That's a really bad situation.

[Aratus]

i'm going to say that drones seem to be more accurate than the bombs from our B-52s and B-24s were in our other wars

[phill4paul]

AF would make Rand Paul look like a Communist.

Damn, now that right there ^^^^ was a true LOL.

[nobody's_hero]

ummm the rights don't need to be read because they are inalienable. Not being read Miranda 'rights' doesn't mean they cease to exist.

Looks like the word suspect is going the way of the words gay and war.

Suspect is being wrought into a synonym for known?

Yes yes but some people are just plain ignorant of their rights. That was the purpose of Miranda rights. It was actually a halfway decent idea of our government to let the accused know their rights.

But, now we have an 'exception.'

[tod evans]

i'm going to say that drones seem to be more accurate than the bombs from our B-52s and B-24s were in our other wars

But we are NOT at war!

Show me a declaration of war?

[Aratus]

We had civilians nuked in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we dropped phosphorus bombs on poor Dresden Germany.
The drones of this war can be very specifically targeted but they are also killing innocent civilians. This is a logical
assessment, namely... its easier to isolate military targets with our better drones, and they can be highly accurate.

[Aratus]

But we are NOT at war!

Show me a declaration of war?

admittedly we have these succinct treaty obligations that explained why we went into Korea and Vietnam,
however you have made a telling point, since the U.N. Police Action of the early 1950s there has not been
an actual declaration of war. We are not inside the type of environment we were inside during WW1 + WW2.

[Lucille]

@naomirwolf So last night when I saw that they were targeting the Boston bomb suspects' miranda rights, I thought: 'okay so the next step is that they will say there may have been more bombings planned.' And today that is the case -- see the Guardian -- and that an 'elite interrogation team' is on the case. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/21/boston-bomb-suspect

I am not making a hypothesis about the nature of this event. I am just saying that it is very, very much in many senior officials' interest -- from Bush era till now, esp when there is a consensus forming about the fact that they committed torture -- to spin a narrative about a 'ticking bomb' scenario that wold justify 'harsh interrogations' retrospectively. Again -- I am not making a judgement about the nature of the event -- I am making a very strong judgment about the direction of the narrative being spun to the media about it.

Oh boy:

@naomirwolf Reports now that the Boston bombing suspect might be assigned 'combatant status.' You know what this means and I also note that I predicted this in 2007 -- that laws would be put in place that eventually would allow people in the US to be assigned a status that puts them outside the protection of the law.

[politics]

• If you as the goverment to suspend this civil right...

You will be saying “we the goverment find the suspect guilty” when what you as goverment should have say is “we the govermente acuse” and someone else judge.
• And thats a fundamental principle because the day you loose “your day in court” just because the goverment says so you or anybody can be facing jail just because the goverment says so.
• Also, if you miss the trial you miss the oportunity to realice what really happen. Otherwise you only have to trust in the goverment good faith.
And that is just dogma, “this is right because I say so” you dont need to probe anything, just accuse and judge, thats all you will need, and all your problems to find the truth are solved.
• Of course it makes you harder to find those are guilty, but thats why you live in a republic and in a democracy ruled by the law, no the man.
• To sostein, that civil rights dont apply is like legitimice preventive war every time the goverment says so. Those that understand that a preventive war is ok, need from the goverment the proof that the war is needed to prevent a major damage.
• In the case of civil rights the same thing occurs, if you are going to suspend those rights you need, at least, to show which is the major damage you are preventing.

[sailingaway]

I really like this Col. Morris Davis guy on twitter:

https://twitter.com/ColMorrisDavis/status/326122246445879297

Dafna Linzer ‏@DafnaLinzer 24m
Mass. officials insists no imminent danger to public but DOJ sticks with "public safety exception" over Miranda: http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/04/21/doj-continues-to-withhold-miranda-protections/ …
http://t.co/0LWn6Ot5s7

Col. Morris Davis
‏@ColMorrisDavis
@DafnaLinzer Apparently the state uses the normal human being definition of "imminent" and the feds are using the Obama unique version.

He was apparently chief prosecutor at Guantanamo, I'm wondering if he was one of the attorneys who filed an ethics complaint opening up the entire judicial limbo there.

[heavenlyboy34]

We had civilians nuked in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and we dropped phosphorus bombs on poor Dresden Germany.
The drones of this war can be very specifically targeted but they are also killing innocent civilians. This is a logical
assessment, namely... its easier to isolate military targets with our better drones, and they can be highly accurate.
Really? I knew about the firebombing there, but never heard of phosphorous used. Very sad if that's true. :(

[Aratus]

a link says 700,000 phosphorus bombs were used in February of 1945 and in other
links we see estimates of the death totals being between 22,000 to 100,000 people.

[FSP-Rebel]

http://i38.tinypic.com/2wqtqw5.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

Free-Dumb.

Not my countrymen.

I don't know these people.



http://i38.tinypic.com/2wqtqw5.jpg

[FSP-Rebel]

Free-Dumb.

Not my countrymen.

I don't know these people.
Great candidates for the movie, "The Island".

[kcchiefs6465]

Really? I knew about the firebombing there, but never heard of phosphorous used. Very sad if that's true. :(
We used white phosphorus bombs and MK77s (modern day napalm) over Fallujah.

[heavenlyboy34]

dupe :/

[heavenlyboy34]

We used white phosphorus bombs and MK77s (modern day napalm) over Fallujah.
I know. The post you quoted was WRT Dresden.

[kcchiefs6465]

I know. The post you quoted was WRT Dresden.
Just clarifying for those who might not have known. :)

My main point was that times don't change. And war crimes are war crimes.

[aGameOfThrones]

We are a nation of Laws!

........


http://media.twirlit.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Nicolas-Cage-Trying-to-hold-in-laughter.gif