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Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 11:17 AM
As employers push efficiency, the daily grind wears down workers

Many businesses no longer want long-term relationships with their employees, who must now work harder without getting financial and psychological rewards that were once routine.

By Alana Semuels, Los Angeles Times
April 7, 2013, 8:00 a.m.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-harsh-work-20130407,0,5858057,full.story

WESTFIELD, Mass. — The envelope factory where Lisa Weber works is hot and noisy. A fan she brought from home helps her keep cool as she maneuvers around whirring equipment to make her quota: 750 envelopes an hour, up from 500 a few years ago.


There's no resting: Between the video cameras and the constant threat of layoffs, Weber knows she must always be on her toes.

The drudgery of work at National Envelope Co. used to be relieved by small perks — an annual picnic, free hams and turkeys over the holidays — but those have long since been eliminated.

“It's harder for me to want to get up and go to work than it used to be,” said Weber, 47, who started at the factory at 19. “It's not something I would wish on anybody. I'm worn out. I get home and I can barely stand up.”

The relentless drive for efficiency at U.S. companies has created a new harshness in the workplace. In their zeal to make sure that not a minute of time is wasted, companies are imposing rigorous performance quotas, forcing many people to put in extra hours, paid or not. Video cameras and software keep tabs on worker performance, tracking their computer keystrokes and the time spent on each customer service call.

Employers once wanted long-term relationships with their workers. At many companies, that's no longer the case. Businesses are asking employees to work harder without providing the kinds of rewards, financial and psychological, that were once routine. Employers figure that if some people quit, there are plenty of others looking for jobs.

“Wages are stagnant, jobs are less secure, work is more intense — it's a much tougher world,” said Paul Osterman, co-director of the MIT Sloan Institute for Work and Employment Research. “Employers have become much more aggressive about restructuring work in ways that push for higher levels of productivity.”

Work is seeping into off hours, as bosses pepper employees with email messages at night and on weekends. They monitor employees' Facebook pages and Twitter feeds for comments that conflict with the corporate message. The growing demands at the workplace mean people have less time to spend with their families or to help out with youth sports or other volunteer activities.

Matt Taibi of Providence, R.I., routinely works 12-hour days as a driver for UPS. The company would rather pay him and other drivers overtime instead of hiring more workers.

Taibi has no complaints about his pay. He makes $32.35 an hour, plus benefits, and has job security as a Teamster. But he wonders how much longer he can keep up the breakneck pace.

“There's more and more push towards doing more with less workers,” said Taibi, 35. “There are more stops, more packages, more pickups. What's happening is that we're stretched to our limits and beyond.”

Changes such as these began decades ago and accelerated during the Great Recession, when high unemployment enabled companies to offer less and demand more. Although the economy is improving, companies are still squeezing labor costs to contend with global competition and boost profits, aided by an array of technologies and management strategies.

There are exceptions, especially in knowledge-based industries where talent is scarce. In California's Silicon Valley, technology companies try to retain software engineers with an ever-increasing array of benefits.

But these jobs go largely to engineers educated at elite universities. Those who don't have a college education or specialized skills face a working world that is far less stable and rewarding.

Santos Castaneda saw his job unloading trucks in the warehouses of the Inland Empire go from a full-time position to a temporary one, in which he never knew from week to week how often he'd be called in or how much he'd earn.

“They say, ‘If you don't want to work, you can leave, but there are hundreds of people waiting for a job,'” he said.

This points to the emergence of a two-tiered workforce in which fewer people can expect the type of employment relationship that Americans aspired to in the past.

“If you're a highly skilled employee with highly marketable talents, they're going to pay dearly for you. But if you're a relatively fungible person, with nothing that separates you from anybody else, the risks and costs have been shifted to you at a dramatic rate,” said Rita Gunther McGrath, a management professor at Columbia University's business school.

Lisa Weber's employer, National Envelope, was founded in 1952 by a Polish immigrant and Holocaust survivor named William Ungar.

As the company flourished, Ungar came to believe that being good to employees was good for business. “For a company like ours to achieve its goals, it must have a humane approach to our employees, thereby stimulating their creativity, which in turn will improve our productivity and efficiency,” he wrote in his memoirs.

But National Envelope had to retrench as the decline of paper mail eroded its business. In 2009, the company shut down some plants. It filed for bankruptcy the following year.

In 2010, National Envelope was acquired by the private equity firm Gores Group of Los Angeles, which drew on the standard playbook for such takeovers: Close inefficient plants, cut staffing and demand more from remaining employees. The company has fewer than 2,500 employees now, half the number it had in 2001.

Workers are being asked to do more even as their benefits shrink, said Juan Roman, vice president of the local union that represents workers at the Westfield, Mass., plant.

Employees can accrue up to four weeks of vacation, rather than five; gone are profit sharing and pensions. Workers are now responsible for 1-1/2 machines each,
rather than one, said Roman, who worked at the plant for 23 years until recently becoming a union staff member.

“You do what you have to do to keep the doors open,” he said.

Tough as they may be, those measures have allowed people like Roman and Weber to continue earning paychecks while many of their neighbors are sitting home unemployed, the firm contends.

“Generally, the business had been run the same way since its inception,” said Tim Meyer, a Gores Group executive. “It became clear that as the market began to soften, what was in place was not a sustainable business model.”

“Sometimes you have to make dramatic changes to save the jobs that you can,” he said.

Businesses are encouraged to keep fixed costs, such as labor and rent, as low as possible. That has paid off: The amount of profit companies make per employee has risen 34% since 2004, according to financial analysis firm Sageworks.

But the focus on costs is part of what has made work more stressful for so many.

“Raises are less. Bonuses are less. Managers are required to do clerical work, the staff is so small,” said John Kennedy, a broker at a securities trading firm in Manhattan. “We joke about bringing our own equipment to work.”

Kennedy has thought about leaving, but he is worried that the job market isn't good enough for him to go anywhere else.

His situation is an example of how professionals are experiencing the harsher work environment too. Although long hours were always part of the bargain, professionals often enjoyed a measure of autonomy in their schedules, with the freedom to take off early on a Friday afternoon after a grueling week.

That's increasingly rare. David Tayar spent a decade as an associate attorney at the law firm Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison in Manhattan. He said the demands of the job grew so much in that time, he eventually felt he could never take a break.

When he started, Tayar said, he checked his voice mail every few hours. Today, lawyers must check their BlackBerrys every few minutes — and be prepared to cancel a dinner, weekend trip or vacation at a moment's notice. Tayar said he took just one day's vacation in a five-year stretch.

“You can never totally relax — you could be called at any time, unless you're officially on vacation,” Tayar said. “And even if you are, there are times when you're called in to work.”

He left the firm last year for a lower-stress job as general counsel of a laser hair-removal company.

The workplace is even tougher for the millions of Americans who have lost the security of a steady paycheck, as companies rely more on temporary staffing agencies. Temp jobs used to be a gateway to permanent employment. Increasingly, they have become a way of life. About 25% of the workforce is temporary, according to research firm Aberdeen Group, up from 17% in 2009.

“Businesses are operating fundamentally differently now than they did before the recession,” said Steven Berchem, chief operating officer of the American Staffing Assn., a trade group for temporary help agencies. “Companies are saying, ‘I don't need to hire a worker in a permanent job for many of the things that used to be done before.'”

That means people such as Martha Gonzalez of Indianapolis are always on call but never guaranteed a weekly paycheck. The Hyatt housekeeper has no sick or vacation days, and she never knows when the staffing agency might call and say she won't be needed for a while.

“You can't really miss a day,” said Gonzalez, 28, who goes to food pantries to feed her family when work is slow. “If you miss a day, they'll fire you.”

Matt Ides has a doctorate in history and extensive teaching experience. Unable to find a full-time, tenure-track job, he took an adjunct teaching position at Eastern Michigan University, where he was paid $3,500 per class. He taught five classes one semester and four the next. One more class and the university would have had to consider him a full-time employee under university policy.

If not for his girlfriend's salary, he said, “I would have had to live in a one-room apartment and eat soup every day.”

Few people have had a better view of the changes taking place in the workplace than human resource professionals. They used to oversee hiring, alert employees to professional development opportunities, put out company newsletters and stage special events to boost morale.

Now they're asked to cut back on those benefits and to evaluate employees based on statistics to figure out who is dispensable.

“In this economy, they're looking for shortcuts, better ways to spend less money,” said Florence Kurttila, who was a human resources specialist at a manufacturing firm until the recession put her out of work.

Kurttila was among HR professionals attending a conference in Sacramento last year in hopes of finding a job. Five years ago, companies averaged nearly 4 human resource workers for every 100 employees, according to the Society for Human Resource Management. Today, the ratio is around 2 per 100 workers, and they are more likely to be terminating employees than helping them get ahead.

Like the colleagues they advise in cubicles and on factory floors, HR workers are under pressure. Computer programs that evaluate employees have made some of them superfluous. Many companies no longer see the need for an in-house HR department and have outsourced the work.

“The relationship between employers and employees has changed,” HR specialist Donna Prewoznik said over a glass of white wine in the conference hotel's ballroom. “Employees haven't had raises. They're tired. Their hours are reduced. They feel a little bit betrayed.”

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 11:20 AM
These guys should look back to the Industrial Revolution to see what it REALLY meant to be pushed for efficiency :rolleyes:

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 11:22 AM
These guys should look back to the Industrial Revolution to see what it REALLY meant to be pushed for efficiency :rolleyes:

Yeah, well, before this devolves into another "lazy good for nothings, they should be getting flogged hourly" thread let me state that my point in posting this is to illustrate that the true slave master is debt.

And who has the most debt to pay off?

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 11:28 AM
Yeah, well, before this devolves into another "lazy good for nothings, they should be getting flogged hourly" thread let me state that my point in posting this is to illustrate that the true slave master is debt.

And who has the most debt to pay off?
Oh I'm not calling them lazy or good for nothing, I am just pointing out that in modern day America, the worst working conditions are leaps and bounds better than what they used to be. In a bad economy people try to become more efficient.

But yes, you are absolutely right about debt.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 11:35 AM
Oh I'm not calling them lazy or good for nothing, I am just pointing out that in modern day America, the worst working conditions are leaps and bounds better than what they used to be. In a bad economy people try to become more efficient.

But yes, you are absolutely right about debt.

True enough, but I can't help but think that the work then was not as...frenzied, maybe.

That when you finished for the day, you finished.

Leaving aside the 24/7 electronic surveillance matrix, I'd point to the massive debt load, personal and government, that enslaves us all, as the culprit.

Stories like this are a "teaching moment" on that subject since they do resonate with an awful lot of people.

VoluntaryAmerican
04-07-2013, 11:39 AM
My own anecdotal evidence would agree with this article.

Skeleton crews are certainly the new normal, for many businesses that I have seen. Even in the "professional" sector.

The Gold Standard
04-07-2013, 11:41 AM
If nothing is invested in capital goods that will make people more efficient, then the people themselves have to be more efficient. This is just another example of how a centrally planned economy does not have the capital structure necessary for real economic growth. They are sending us back in time.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 11:45 AM
If nothing is invested in capital goods that will make people more efficient, then the people themselves have to be more efficient.

And people, just like machines, break, when forced to maintain unrealistic levels of output.

And when they break, they break in an unpredictable and catastrophic fashion.

MRK
04-07-2013, 11:47 AM
There are plenty of jobs out there. But they are jobs like this that pay $10-12 an hour. It only makes sense that 90 million people are going to choose disability and unemployment checks over this. It's not 'just a safety net' when it makes more sense than working.

Lafayette
04-07-2013, 11:48 AM
Boo fuckity hoo !

Mr $32 an hour UPS driver, that $190 a day in over time pay must be so horrible :rolleyes:

Seraphim
04-07-2013, 11:49 AM
More reason to become more and more self sufficient every day. A baby step each day goes a long way over 2 years.

The Gold Standard
04-07-2013, 11:52 AM
And people, just like machines, break, when forced to maintain unrealistic levels of output.

And when they break, they break in an unpredictable and catastrophic fashion.

It's like the people who had to work long hours in the late 1800s. There wasn't enough wealth produced for them to be able to work less than that. Then as steel and oil and cars and electricity were developed, people were able to work less and earn more. Now the government has sent us back to that point, and we are all poorer for it.

With the development of computers and the internet, productivity has exploded, but incredibly the government has stolen all of that new wealth. Consumer prices should be a quarter of what they were 20 years ago, not double. We should be living like kings. Instead we will soon be back to living like pioneers.

TheTexan
04-07-2013, 11:59 AM
With the development of computers and the internet, productivity has exploded, but incredibly the government has stolen all of that new wealth.

The government... or the bankers.... same thing, really.

MRK
04-07-2013, 12:03 PM
I think there's a lot of people who aren't realizing what's actually happening here, if they've never worked at a place that's like this. I've worked in and heard about dozens from friends.

Profits are getting so hard to come by that employers have to hire skeleton crews and push their managers to push their employees to go harder and harder when they can't go harder anymore, not realizing there's a limit to all this. This is killing our workers, and what are they getting for it? $10 an hour in a vast number of cases, UPS drivers apparently being one of the exceptions. Do you think that's going to cover their long-term medical costs from working like this? Absolutely not.

Some of you may scoff at this and think these workers are being weaklings, but I put it to you that you have not been in their situation. If you are so shortsighted to not realize how prevalent this is becoming, do not say you could not have seen it coming when it ends up being your lot.

This crisis is a symptom of government regulation and overtaxation and you would do well not to put the entirety of the blame on the individuals here.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 12:12 PM
It's like the people who had to work long hours in the late 1800s. There wasn't enough wealth produced for them to be able to work less than that. Then as steel and oil and cars and electricity were developed, people were able to work less and earn more. Now the government has sent us back to that point, and we are all poorer for it.

With the development of computers and the internet, productivity has exploded, but incredibly the government has stolen all of that new wealth. Consumer prices should be a quarter of what they were 20 years ago, not double. We should be living like kings. Instead we will soon be back to living like pioneers.

Bingo.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 12:21 PM
Boo fuckity hoo !

Mr $32 an hour UPS driver, that $190 a day in over time pay must be so horrible :rolleyes:

Meh.

Let's say Mr. UPS works 6 days a week, 12 hours every day, every single week of the year, no vacations, no sick time, no leave, no holidays.

That's just shy of $120k a year, gross pay.

Now the FedCoats take their share, and the state and the city, assuming he owns a home and is supporting a family.

Now you're down to around $80k.

Take out some health insurance fees, some 401k contributions and savings.

You're down to around $60k.

Now, house, clothe, heat, cool, feed, school, transport and keep entertained a family on that.

In Rhode Island.

It sounds like a lot, but it really isn't when all the dust settles.

Which is why the collectivist's argument about "the rich paying more" is foolish, on the face of it.

Exponent
04-07-2013, 12:44 PM
These employees could always quit individually or in groups and start their own businesses...

...Oh, wait. The government and large corporations have made sure that those types of options are usually not even remotely feasible. Nevermind.

amy31416
04-07-2013, 01:01 PM
These guys should look back to the Industrial Revolution to see what it REALLY meant to be pushed for efficiency :rolleyes:

Please do tell us all about all the time you've done working as a driver, in a factory or doing physical labor. :rolleyes:

That said, the place where Kludge worked for several months in order to catch up on bills has a sector that works 7 days/week, 12 hours/day with almost no benefits. I mean that--no health care, one week of vacation/year, if you're late once--you're fired. He said that the people who've been in that sector looked subhuman....except for one fellow who actually parked an RV in the parking lot, did the grind for 15 years and retired to Alaska.

This is a Japanese-run company that has the most bastardized version of Lean Manufacturing/Kaizen that I've ever heard of. I expect to see a lot more of this type of company in the future. Kludge even griped about the blatant racism within the company--something I never thought I'd hear from him.

All you do when you work for a company like that is eat, shit, sleep and work. It was good for him short-term though, I recommend it to people who don't appreciate hard work or the money other people have earned, Matt.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 01:09 PM
....except for one fellow who actually parked an RV in the parking lot, did the grind for 15 years and retired to Alaska.

No debt, see?

But as global government expands its grasp, more and more of life will become what you described.

A spinning rat wheel of mindless debt and consumption, never able to catch up, never able to stop, never able to check out.

A shapeless blob of globalized humanity, all debt fueled consuming itself to government defined, strictly enforced and closely monitored "happiness".

Ugh.

amy31416
04-07-2013, 01:29 PM
No debt, see?

But as global government expands its grasp, more and more of life will become what you described.

A spinning rat wheel of mindless debt and consumption, never able to catch up, never able to stop, never able to check out.

A shapeless blob of globalized humanity, all debt fueled consuming itself to government defined, strictly enforced and closely monitored "happiness".

Ugh.

Yep. No debt--and look what he had to give up for it. No family, no life experiences, no travelling, probably no education (though I suspect some autodidact in him)--but at least he did it the best way possible. I never met him, but I do have a higher level of respect for him than I do your average American schmuck.

When looking at this place, I'm honestly surprised they don't have "dorm" style places to rent, along with being paid in tokens to spend at the company commissary.

What was that Charlie Chaplin film again? "Modern Times," that's it. Anyone who hasn't seen it should watch.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 01:38 PM
This is a Japanese-run company that has the most bastardized version of Lean Manufacturing/Kaizen that I've ever heard of. I expect to see a lot more of this type of company in the future. Kludge even griped about the blatant racism within the company--something I never thought I'd hear from him.


Some of those places are friggin ruthless. They'll work you until you need surgery to repair your joints. Then they'll pay for the surgery, and give you a different job that will ruin your joints that still work. They view repetitive strain injuries and surgery as part of labor costs. Some of them might pay well compared to other available jobs, but the employees are trading money for their physical health. Many get trapped in such jobs by buying things on credit before they realize their body is being damaged to such an extent.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 01:40 PM
When looking at this place, I'm honestly surprised they don't have "dorm" style places to rent, along with being paid in tokens to spend at the company commissary.

Company scrip.

Company store.

Company housing.

Company church.

Company doctor.

Company owned.

tttppp
04-07-2013, 01:40 PM
As employers push efficiency, the daily grind wears down workers

Many businesses no longer want long-term relationships with their employees, who must now work harder without getting financial and psychological rewards that were once routine.

By Alana Semuels, Los Angeles Times
April 7, 2013, 8:00 a.m.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-harsh-work-20130407,0,5858057,full.story

WESTFIELD, Mass. — The envelope factory where Lisa Weber works is hot and noisy. A fan she brought from home helps her keep cool as she maneuvers around whirring equipment to make her quota: 750 envelopes an hour, up from 500 a few years ago.


There's no resting: Between the video cameras and the constant threat of layoffs, Weber knows she must always be on her toes.

The drudgery of work at National Envelope Co. used to be relieved by small perks — an annual picnic, free hams and turkeys over the holidays — but those have long since been eliminated.

“It's harder for me to want to get up and go to work than it used to be,” said Weber, 47, who started at the factory at 19. “It's not something I would wish on anybody. I'm worn out. I get home and I can barely stand up.”

The relentless drive for efficiency at U.S. companies has created a new harshness in the workplace. In their zeal to make sure that not a minute of time is wasted, companies are imposing rigorous performance quotas, forcing many people to put in extra hours, paid or not. Video cameras and software keep tabs on worker performance, tracking their computer keystrokes and the time spent on each customer service call.

Employers once wanted long-term relationships with their workers. At many companies, that's no longer the case. Businesses are asking employees to work harder without providing the kinds of rewards, financial and psychological, that were once routine. Employers figure that if some people quit, there are plenty of others looking for jobs.

“Wages are stagnant, jobs are less secure, work is more intense — it's a much tougher world,” said Paul Osterman, co-director of the MIT Sloan Institute for Work and Employment Research. “Employers have become much more aggressive about restructuring work in ways that push for higher levels of productivity.”

Work is seeping into off hours, as bosses pepper employees with email messages at night and on weekends. They monitor employees' Facebook pages and Twitter feeds for comments that conflict with the corporate message. The growing demands at the workplace mean people have less time to spend with their families or to help out with youth sports or other volunteer activities.

Matt Taibi of Providence, R.I., routinely works 12-hour days as a driver for UPS. The company would rather pay him and other drivers overtime instead of hiring more workers.

Taibi has no complaints about his pay. He makes $32.35 an hour, plus benefits, and has job security as a Teamster. But he wonders how much longer he can keep up the breakneck pace.

“There's more and more push towards doing more with less workers,” said Taibi, 35. “There are more stops, more packages, more pickups. What's happening is that we're stretched to our limits and beyond.”

Changes such as these began decades ago and accelerated during the Great Recession, when high unemployment enabled companies to offer less and demand more. Although the economy is improving, companies are still squeezing labor costs to contend with global competition and boost profits, aided by an array of technologies and management strategies.

There are exceptions, especially in knowledge-based industries where talent is scarce. In California's Silicon Valley, technology companies try to retain software engineers with an ever-increasing array of benefits.

But these jobs go largely to engineers educated at elite universities. Those who don't have a college education or specialized skills face a working world that is far less stable and rewarding.

Santos Castaneda saw his job unloading trucks in the warehouses of the Inland Empire go from a full-time position to a temporary one, in which he never knew from week to week how often he'd be called in or how much he'd earn.

“They say, ‘If you don't want to work, you can leave, but there are hundreds of people waiting for a job,'” he said.

This points to the emergence of a two-tiered workforce in which fewer people can expect the type of employment relationship that Americans aspired to in the past.

“If you're a highly skilled employee with highly marketable talents, they're going to pay dearly for you. But if you're a relatively fungible person, with nothing that separates you from anybody else, the risks and costs have been shifted to you at a dramatic rate,” said Rita Gunther McGrath, a management professor at Columbia University's business school.

Lisa Weber's employer, National Envelope, was founded in 1952 by a Polish immigrant and Holocaust survivor named William Ungar.

As the company flourished, Ungar came to believe that being good to employees was good for business. “For a company like ours to achieve its goals, it must have a humane approach to our employees, thereby stimulating their creativity, which in turn will improve our productivity and efficiency,” he wrote in his memoirs.

But National Envelope had to retrench as the decline of paper mail eroded its business. In 2009, the company shut down some plants. It filed for bankruptcy the following year.

In 2010, National Envelope was acquired by the private equity firm Gores Group of Los Angeles, which drew on the standard playbook for such takeovers: Close inefficient plants, cut staffing and demand more from remaining employees. The company has fewer than 2,500 employees now, half the number it had in 2001.

Workers are being asked to do more even as their benefits shrink, said Juan Roman, vice president of the local union that represents workers at the Westfield, Mass., plant.

Employees can accrue up to four weeks of vacation, rather than five; gone are profit sharing and pensions. Workers are now responsible for 1-1/2 machines each,
rather than one, said Roman, who worked at the plant for 23 years until recently becoming a union staff member.

“You do what you have to do to keep the doors open,” he said.

Tough as they may be, those measures have allowed people like Roman and Weber to continue earning paychecks while many of their neighbors are sitting home unemployed, the firm contends.

“Generally, the business had been run the same way since its inception,” said Tim Meyer, a Gores Group executive. “It became clear that as the market began to soften, what was in place was not a sustainable business model.”

“Sometimes you have to make dramatic changes to save the jobs that you can,” he said.

Businesses are encouraged to keep fixed costs, such as labor and rent, as low as possible. That has paid off: The amount of profit companies make per employee has risen 34% since 2004, according to financial analysis firm Sageworks.

But the focus on costs is part of what has made work more stressful for so many.

“Raises are less. Bonuses are less. Managers are required to do clerical work, the staff is so small,” said John Kennedy, a broker at a securities trading firm in Manhattan. “We joke about bringing our own equipment to work.”

Kennedy has thought about leaving, but he is worried that the job market isn't good enough for him to go anywhere else.

His situation is an example of how professionals are experiencing the harsher work environment too. Although long hours were always part of the bargain, professionals often enjoyed a measure of autonomy in their schedules, with the freedom to take off early on a Friday afternoon after a grueling week.

That's increasingly rare. David Tayar spent a decade as an associate attorney at the law firm Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison in Manhattan. He said the demands of the job grew so much in that time, he eventually felt he could never take a break.

When he started, Tayar said, he checked his voice mail every few hours. Today, lawyers must check their BlackBerrys every few minutes — and be prepared to cancel a dinner, weekend trip or vacation at a moment's notice. Tayar said he took just one day's vacation in a five-year stretch.

“You can never totally relax — you could be called at any time, unless you're officially on vacation,” Tayar said. “And even if you are, there are times when you're called in to work.”

He left the firm last year for a lower-stress job as general counsel of a laser hair-removal company.

The workplace is even tougher for the millions of Americans who have lost the security of a steady paycheck, as companies rely more on temporary staffing agencies. Temp jobs used to be a gateway to permanent employment. Increasingly, they have become a way of life. About 25% of the workforce is temporary, according to research firm Aberdeen Group, up from 17% in 2009.

“Businesses are operating fundamentally differently now than they did before the recession,” said Steven Berchem, chief operating officer of the American Staffing Assn., a trade group for temporary help agencies. “Companies are saying, ‘I don't need to hire a worker in a permanent job for many of the things that used to be done before.'”

That means people such as Martha Gonzalez of Indianapolis are always on call but never guaranteed a weekly paycheck. The Hyatt housekeeper has no sick or vacation days, and she never knows when the staffing agency might call and say she won't be needed for a while.

“You can't really miss a day,” said Gonzalez, 28, who goes to food pantries to feed her family when work is slow. “If you miss a day, they'll fire you.”

Matt Ides has a doctorate in history and extensive teaching experience. Unable to find a full-time, tenure-track job, he took an adjunct teaching position at Eastern Michigan University, where he was paid $3,500 per class. He taught five classes one semester and four the next. One more class and the university would have had to consider him a full-time employee under university policy.

If not for his girlfriend's salary, he said, “I would have had to live in a one-room apartment and eat soup every day.”

Few people have had a better view of the changes taking place in the workplace than human resource professionals. They used to oversee hiring, alert employees to professional development opportunities, put out company newsletters and stage special events to boost morale.

Now they're asked to cut back on those benefits and to evaluate employees based on statistics to figure out who is dispensable.

“In this economy, they're looking for shortcuts, better ways to spend less money,” said Florence Kurttila, who was a human resources specialist at a manufacturing firm until the recession put her out of work.

Kurttila was among HR professionals attending a conference in Sacramento last year in hopes of finding a job. Five years ago, companies averaged nearly 4 human resource workers for every 100 employees, according to the Society for Human Resource Management. Today, the ratio is around 2 per 100 workers, and they are more likely to be terminating employees than helping them get ahead.

Like the colleagues they advise in cubicles and on factory floors, HR workers are under pressure. Computer programs that evaluate employees have made some of them superfluous. Many companies no longer see the need for an in-house HR department and have outsourced the work.

“The relationship between employers and employees has changed,” HR specialist Donna Prewoznik said over a glass of white wine in the conference hotel's ballroom. “Employees haven't had raises. They're tired. Their hours are reduced. They feel a little bit betrayed.”

What are video cameras for? Are employees stealing envelopes?

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 01:43 PM
What are video cameras for? Are employees stealing envelopes?

This is sarcasm, right?

amy31416
04-07-2013, 01:45 PM
Company scrip.

Company store.

Company housing.

Company church.

Company doctor.

Company owned.

You know I can't rep you again yet, so ya best quit yappin' until I can.

tttppp
04-07-2013, 01:46 PM
This is sarcasm, right?


No seriously, you don't need video cameras to monitor peoples performance. The exception is if employees are straling froj the company.

Philhelm
04-07-2013, 01:57 PM
Sometimes I think people, particularly in the U.S., have a form of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to employment. Terms like contribute to society, nose to the grindstone, and [Protestant] work ethic are used with pride while anything questioning such is somehow necessarily relegated to laziness.

I have frequently encountered people that seemed excited about the chance for overtime, despite the fact that their base pay was low to begin with. The only reason that I would want to work overtime is if I were absolutely desperate for extra income. You see, I work to make other people rich from the contribution of my labor so that I can afford certain things. I work to live, not live to work. If it gets to the point that I am living to work, what would be the point of my existence?

Also, it's not like most people can rise through the ranks of a company anymore, much less remain with the company for an extended period of time. Where's the reward for faithful service? Money alone cannot console human psychology.

I was born into this world to fulfill my desires, not to be a machine utilized for someone else to live a charmed life.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 01:58 PM
You know I can't rep you again yet, so ya best quit yappin' until I can.

I'll get it.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 02:03 PM
No seriously, you don't need video cameras to monitor peoples performance. The exception is if employees are stealing from the company.

LOL, that's funny.

The new dynamic, the new system, is total surveillance, both by government and by business.

You will be monitored for compliance at all times.

And the "right" screams when government does it.

And the "left" screams when business does it.

And somehow I'm the lone weirdo that says NOBODY should have the fucking right to do that.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 02:05 PM
Sometimes I think people, particularly in the U.S., have a form of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to employment. Terms like contribute to society, nose to the grindstone, and [Protestant] work ethic are used with pride while anything questioning such is somehow necessarily relegated to laziness.

I have frequently encountered people that seemed excited about the chance for overtime, despite the fact that their base pay was low to begin with. The only reason that I would want to work overtime is if I were absolutely desperate for extra income. You see, I work to make other people rich from the contribution of my labor so that I can afford certain things. I work to live, not live to work. If it gets to the point that I am living to work, what would be the point of my existence?

Also, it's not like most people can rise through the ranks of a company anymore, much less remain with the company for an extended period of time. Where's the reward for faithful service? Money alone cannot console human psychology.

I was born into this world to fulfill my desires, not to be a machine utilized for someone else to live a charmed life.

+rep

And I suspect your desire is the same as mine, to live as a free man.

Sadly, that is not permitted in this new order that has been built for us.

MRK
04-07-2013, 02:07 PM
You know I can't rep you again yet, so ya best quit yappin' until I can.

I forget to rep AF because almost every post is worthy of a rep and I've become desensitized to it. Lol

Philhelm
04-07-2013, 02:07 PM
LOL, that's funny.

The new dynamic, the new system, is total surveillance, both by government and by business.

Might as well give 'em a show worth watching. One to be remembered for all time as a cautionary tale told to tyrants.

satchelmcqueen
04-07-2013, 02:08 PM
to keep an eye on your every move. its a mental fuck to know youre being watched all the time.
What are video cameras for? Are employees stealing envelopes?

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 02:10 PM
Sometimes I think people, particularly in the U.S., have a form of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to employment. Terms like contribute to society, nose to the grindstone, and [Protestant] work ethic are used with pride while anything questioning such is somehow necessarily relegated to laziness.

I have frequently encountered people that seemed excited about the chance for overtime, despite the fact that their base pay was low to begin with. The only reason that I would want to work overtime is if I were absolutely desperate for extra income. You see, I work to make other people rich from the contribution of my labor so that I can afford certain things. I work to live, not live to work. If it gets to the point that I am living to work, what would be the point of my existence?

Also, it's not like most people can rise through the ranks of a company anymore, much less remain with the company for an extended period of time. Where's the reward for faithful service? Money alone cannot console human psychology.

I was born into this world to fulfill my desires, not to be a machine utilized for someone else to live a charmed life.



This will be a good read for you and others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_bending_supply_curve_of_labour

Your personal labor supply curve bends backward sooner than those around you. Mine does too.

It is research and theory like this that makes me cringe when people discuss "austrian economics" versus "mainstream economics." Both make reasonable contributions to modern economic thought.

Philhelm
04-07-2013, 02:13 PM
+rep

And I suspect your desire is the same as mine, to live as a free man.

Sadly, that is not permitted in this new order that has been built for us.

Yes. Ironically, living in a true state of freedom would most likely require more and harder work, but it would be my work and my life.

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 02:16 PM
Please do tell us all about all the time you've done working as a driver, in a factory or doing physical labor. :rolleyes:Every concert I do is a ton of physical labor. And I've driven quite a bit. I've worked in a factory before too, doing printing for elections. As usual, you are attacking others for no reason.

Philhelm
04-07-2013, 02:20 PM
This will be a good read for you and others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_bending_supply_curve_of_labour

Your personal labor supply curve bends backward sooner than those around you. Mine does too.

I think it helps that I am not very materialistic and I don't like to spend loads of money to travel to some foreign location only to perform the same activities that I can locally (i.e. vacation). I don't even like going out into public much these days, as the People of Wal-Mart are everywhere now.

VIDEODROME
04-07-2013, 02:29 PM
What are video cameras for? Are employees stealing envelopes?

Liability. It's only to cover someone's ass.

If anything disagreeable happens, some manager can thump their chest saying that's why they purchased video cameras.

Czolgosz
04-07-2013, 02:30 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m12as5gGKr1qiv3sto1_500.gif

TheTexan
04-07-2013, 02:31 PM
Yes. Ironically, living in a true state of freedom would most likely require more and harder work, but it would be my work and my life.

I disagree. It would require more responsibility, this is true, but more work?

With all of the different taxes, direct and hidden, I guesstimate the thieves steal well over half of my earnings. So without that theft, however hard I am working now, I could work half as hard and live better..

angelatc
04-07-2013, 02:35 PM
I'm having a really, really hard time sympathizing with anybody crying about having a job these days.

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 02:36 PM
Every concert I do is a ton of physical labor. And I've driven quite a bit. I've worked in a factory before too, doing printing for elections. As usual, you are attacking others for no reason.
Unless you're the one doing the movers' job (carrying and setting up boards, mics, etc), you're not doing tons of labor. (no, adjusting the pots and faders doesn't count as "tons of labor")

abacabb
04-07-2013, 02:37 PM
Matt Taibi of Providence, R.I., routinely works 12-hour days as a driver for UPS. The company would rather pay him and other drivers overtime instead of hiring more workers.

Taibi has no complaints about his pay. He makes $32.35 an hour, plus benefits, and has job security as a Teamster. But he wonders how much longer he can keep up the breakneck pace.
So the country has leeches and workers...I do wonder how much longer the workers can keep up.

VIDEODROME
04-07-2013, 02:39 PM
Everything in the economy does have this weird feel that there is a lot of stealthy "skimming" that isn't obviously seen by the average rank and file worker.

It's how you'd feel if some people hooked up to your powerline and water line and saw your utility bills go up and wonder WTF? But then instead of catching the thieves, your just told to bust your ass and work harder to stay ahead.

To some extent it might feel like the person doing the skimming is your employer, but if so it's because the same skimming effect is happening to companies.

TheTexan
04-07-2013, 02:42 PM
Everything in the economy does have this weird feel that there is a lot of stealthy "skimming" that isn't obviously seen by the average rank and file worker.

It's how you'd feel if some people hooked up to your powerline and water line and saw your utility bills go up and wonder WTF? But then instead of catching the thieves, your just told to bust your ass and work harder to stay ahead.

To some extent it might feel like the person doing the skimming is your employer, but if so it's because the same skimming effect is happening to companies.

Accounts Receivable Tax
“Black liquor” tax hike
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Dividend Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans (Obamacare)
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Franchise Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Fuel Excise Tax
Gasoline Tax
Diesel Gas Tax
Employer Mandate Tax (Obamacare)
HSA Withdrawal Tax
Hunting License Tax
Individual Mandate Excise Tax (Obamacare)
Inheritance Tax (Upon death, Government gets 40% of your inheritance)
Interest Expense (tax on the money)
Inventory Tax I
RS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax (Where applicable)
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Payroll Tax
Mill Levy Tax
Property Tax< (composed of numerous taxes, dependent upon locale).
Real Estate Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
Road Usage Taxes (truckers)
Sales Taxes
School Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
State Income Tax
State Sales Tax (Where applicable)
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Tanning Salon Tax (Obamacare)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Toll Bridge Taxes
Tunnel Taxes
Trailer Registration
Tax Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers’ Compensation Tax

+ Banker Enrichment Tax (also known as Inflation Tax)

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 02:49 PM
I think it helps that I am not very materialistic and I don't like to spend loads of money to travel to some foreign location only to perform the same activities that I can locally (i.e. vacation). I don't even like going out into public much these days, as the People of Wal-Mart are everywhere now.


In a sense, we're all statistical "outliers" here. That link I posted provides an economic reason as to why your feelings are different from a lot of others.

I also agree with you on that "stockholm syndrome" comment. When I was much younger, I had a gf who was absolutely strict about giving employers 2 weeks notice, no matter why she had to leave. (Think shitty treatment, sexual harassment by management, etc.) I was always thinking and saying "They'll absolutely fire you or lay you off without 2 weeks notice." That was usually followed by "Quit today. Call them. I have our bills covered." But she was 100% convinced she needed to give 2 weeks notice to quit a job.

There are positives regarding having "a good work ethic," but that is much different than what I just described. I've quit more jobs than I can count with no notice, but there was always a ditch I could dig someplace. Most employers will only verify employment dates anyway. Anything else, they're scared of lawsuits. That's kind of a shame. Anyway, if I were hiring someone and their reference said "they didn't give me notice," it would surely be up for discussion... not some automatic "can't hire you" issue.

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 02:55 PM
In a sense, we're all statistical "outliers" here. That link I posted provides an economic reason as to why your feelings are different from a lot of others.

I also agree with you on that "stockholm syndrome" comment. When I was much younger, I had a gf who was absolutely strict about giving employers 2 weeks notice, no matter why she had to leave. (Think shitty treatment, sexual harassment by management, etc.) I was always thinking and saying "They'll absolutely fire you or lay you off without 2 weeks notice." That was usually followed by "Quit today. Call them. I have our bills covered." But she was 100% convinced she needed to give 2 weeks notice to quit a job.

There are positives regarding having "a good work ethic," but that is much different than what I just described. I've quit more jobs than I can count with no notice, but there was always a ditch I could dig someplace. Most employers will only verify employment dates anyway. Anything else, they're scared of lawsuits. That's kind of a shame. Anyway, if I were hiring someone and their reference said "they didn't give me notice," it would surely be up for discussion... not some automatic "can't hire you" issue.

I give notice when a job requires some kind of certification or other specialization. It is a bit comical to notice that it still does not help. I actually gave well over two months' notice (gave notice in early September, did not leave until the end of December) at a job where I was a licensed insurance agent. This was a courtesy because there really were not a lot of licensed agents around. The bosses had actually paid for me to take the class and get the license in the first place. When did they start looking for someone in any serious way? A couple of weeks before I left. Did they find someone? Sure... kind of. I went back after my job was technically over, after I'd gotten back from seeing my parents over the holidays. I went upstairs during business hours to retrieve my mini fridge. The "new" agent was sitting with her head down on the desk, sobbing loudly. No one said a word to me. My then-husband and I got my fridge and left quietly. Awkward.

Still, I did my part and gave them what I felt was fair and respectful notice.

AGRP
04-07-2013, 03:01 PM
Dont forget the ATV license. In many states, it is illegal to operate an ATV on public land or in a designated area without first obtaining ATV certification.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 03:17 PM
I give notice when a job requires some kind of certification or other specialization. It is a bit comical to notice that it still does not help. I actually gave well over two months' notice (gave notice in early September, did not leave until the end of December) at a job where I was a licensed insurance agent. This was a courtesy because there really were not a lot of licensed agents around. The bosses had actually paid for me to take the class and get the license in the first place. When did they start looking for someone in any serious way? A couple of weeks before I left. Did they find someone? Sure... kind of. I went back after my job was technically over, after I'd gotten back from seeing my parents over the holidays. I went upstairs during business hours to retrieve my mini fridge. The "new" agent was sitting with her head down on the desk, sobbing loudly. No one said a word to me. My then-husband and I got my fridge and left quietly. Awkward.

Still, I did my part and gave them what I felt was fair and respectful notice.


I find that completely appropriate. I've also given notice at times. In her case, she was willing to be mistreated for two more weeks (probably worse than to start with) because that's what everyone besides me told her she should do.

And I've gone through plenty of petty hazing at trade jobs. (It happens a lot in male dominated trades.) That's not something I've ever quit over. These were places where employees wanted to make sure their coworkers were pulling their own weight. (It is a behavioral economics issue that employees are concerned with fair workloads... moreso than actual wages even.) I'll deal with fellow employees on a case by case basis... just like everyone else in the world. When an employer is dogging you, you can expect it to never end.

Why was your replacement crying? Same reason you left?

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 03:21 PM
I find that completely appropriate. I've also given notice at times. In her case, she was willing to be mistreated for two more weeks (probably worse than to start with) because that's what everyone besides me told her she should do.

And I've gone through plenty of petty hazing at trade jobs. (It happens a lot in male dominated trades.) That's not something I've ever quit over. These were places where employees wanted to make sure their coworkers were pulling their own weight. (It is a behavioral economics issue that employees are concerned with fair workloads... moreso than actual wages even.) I'll deal with fellow employees on a case by case basis... just like everyone else in the world. When an employer is dogging you, you can expect it to never end.

Why was your replacement crying? Same reason you left?

I would assume insufficient training coupled with a massive workload and long hours (it was a country type operation, so I had to drive around and take photos of folks' houses, cars, boats, etc., to ensure they had brought the item up to code if necessary). When you're brought in at the last minute and you can't really talk to the person you're replacing, it's tough to transition, and bosses don't usually allow for things to slow down.

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 03:25 PM
Related:

http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/03/28/17502134-want-to-be-happier-at-work-try-goofing-off?lite



Want to be happier at work? Try goofing off

A major reason your slacker co-workers like their jobs so much is because you’re doing their work for them. The study found that high performers were least likely to say their company held people accountable for their work, while the lowest performers were the most likely to say they received praise for the work they do.

Managers who dole out “attaboys” and merit raises across the board bear a lot of the blame for this, Murphy said. "It’s sort of the everybody-gets-a-trophy phenomenon," he said. "What they don’t realize is that by not differentiating the high performers, you really are irritating the high performers... who are keeping you in business.”

angelatc
04-07-2013, 03:58 PM
So the country has leeches and workers...I do wonder how much longer the workers can keep up.[/COLOR]


Overtime is one of the signs that an economy is improving.

And some people are just never happy. The guy across the street from me is losing his house. (Before we go blaming the banks, I should point out this is the 3rd time he's gone into foreclosure. The other two times the bank renegotiated the loan for him.)

He made great money working overtime, bought several new cars, put a big addition on the house, cool TV and stereo. He crabbed about having to work so hard. When the OT stopped, he found himself unable to pay for all these new toys.

So I expect that when companies start to hire again, the guys complaining about having to work so hard will suddenly start complaiing about losing their overtime. It happens over and over.

Maybe some of you are young, so you've never seen this before but it's part of the cycle.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 04:00 PM
Related:

http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/03/28/17502134-want-to-be-happier-at-work-try-goofing-off?lite


Yep. Stupid url by the author, though.



For one thing, talk to your boss, Murphy said. The idea isn’t to call out the co-worker who spends all day hanging around the coffee machine, but to ask the company to implement better ways to measure performance — which will separate the go-getters from the also-rans.


In the trades I talk about, it was employee enforced. There were no coffee machines. lol.

I think the smartest employer I ever worked for brought newbies in at 1.5 times the going pay rate. (Let's say the difference between 7 and 11 dollars per hour.) He explained that you'll either live up to it, or be gone within a week by his choice. At the same time, he had an entire workforce watchdogging newbies. They were all willing to work that hard, and not willing to work with people who slacked. So if someone was slacking, the employees would eat them faster than he could fire them. He wasn't really there to supervise, anyway. It was genius, really. He probably had a workforce of 15 people and clearing a million a year 10 years ago. Essentially, every employee became a manager, interested in the productivity of their coworkers. They all came in the same way, and everyone benefited because they were all able to maintain their higher than average wages, but they did so by expecting the same of others they worked with.

I think I made $10 per hour when I worked for him. There's no telling how much money I've made by having conversations with him. The method was counter to most things I had known before, but he could tell 10 people to "go get it done" and it would absolutely happen if possible.

amy31416
04-07-2013, 04:08 PM
Every concert I do is a ton of physical labor. And I've driven quite a bit. I've worked in a factory before too, doing printing for elections. As usual, you are attacking others for no reason.

LOL! I used to be something akin to a sound engineer, I'm sure many others have done that sort of work as well. And you consider printing to be physical labor to an extent that it should be mentioned? I've done my share of that as well, and don't consider it to be physical labor.

You really are a piece of work, my delicate little friend. You do not know "a ton of physical labor."

Brian4Liberty
04-07-2013, 04:15 PM
Employers once wanted long-term relationships with their workers. At many companies, that's no longer the case. Businesses are asking employees to work harder without providing the kinds of rewards, financial and psychological, that were once routine. Employers figure that if some people quit, there are plenty of others looking for jobs.

Supply and demand. Too many workers, and each worker become worth less. It's a global race to the bottom. Got a problem with that? You can be replaced by someone from Guatemala, China or India.

Slaves were so expensive with the cost of feeding, housing and rudimentary medical care. The system has better alternatives these days.

abacabb
04-07-2013, 04:21 PM
Overtime is one of the signs that an economy is improving.

And some people are just never happy. The guy across the street from me is losing his house. (Before we go blaming the banks, I should point out this is the 3rd time he's gone into foreclosure. The other two times the bank renegotiated the loan for him.)

He made great money working overtime, bought several new cars, put a big addition on the house, cool TV and stereo. He crabbed about having to work so hard. When the OT stopped, he found himself unable to pay for all these new toys.

So I expect that when companies start to hire again, the guys complaining about having to work so hard will suddenly start complaiing about losing their overtime. It happens over and over.

Maybe some of you are young, so you've never seen this before but it's part of the cycle.

My observation is that we are quickly becoming a society of corporate and government elites at the top which are lazy finger pointers, a bunch of slackers on SSI and "assistance," and everyone else, which pays for the whole decadent system.

Eventually, the backs that carry this system will break.

Demigod
04-07-2013, 04:45 PM
Not to be an asshole but the first lady makes envelops( I am amazed that someone even pays more than 100-200 dollars a month to someone who makes envelops).Her competition are 2-3 billion people from South/South-East Asia that would probably do what she does for 1/3 of the pay and with the same productivity thanking god all the way .She can be lucky that she can even earn the money she does by making envelops.

The second guy who drives 12 hours a day for 30 dollars an hour should know that what he makes in 2-3 days is a higher paycheck than what 60-70% of the world make in a month,let alone his colleagues.I am sure that his bosses would let him work for 8 hours a day for 20 dollars an hour,but I am not so sure he would take such a deal.

And hello to the USA from the rest of the world who did not understand how two people who do the compete same line of work can have a 1-4/5 ratio in salaries.The bad part for the USA worker is that the salaries will not equalize on the high end of the scale but on the lower one.

LibForestPaul
04-07-2013, 04:53 PM
I'm having a really, really hard time sympathizing with anybody crying about having a job these days.

Field slave jeoulous of the house slave, eh?

LibForestPaul
04-07-2013, 04:56 PM
LOL! I used to be something akin to a sound engineer, I'm sure many others have done that sort of work as well. And you consider printing to be physical labor to an extent that it should be mentioned? I've done my share of that as well, and don't consider it to be physical labor.

You really are a piece of work, my delicate little friend. You do not know "a ton of physical labor."

I have seen physical labor. I watched while standing at a train platform a crew of guys replace track and tie rods. It was maybe 80 degrees out, not too hot. These guys where HUGE. And they busted their asses, in 80 degree weather. And they were mostly white. And I thought to myself "White, I guess union and good pay." Then I thought, hell even at $100hr, I would run from this job. Physical labor sucks, at least for me. Would have ripped my back out in an hour.

Demigod
04-07-2013, 05:04 PM
I have seen physical labor. I watched while standing at a train platform a crew of guys replace track and tie rods. It was maybe 80 degrees out, not too hot. These guys where HUGE. And they busted their asses, in 80 degree weather. And they were mostly white. And I thought to myself "White, I guess union and good pay." Then I thought, hell even at $100hr, I would run from this job. Physical labor sucks, at least for me. Would have ripped my back out in an hour.


Field slave jeoulous of the house slave, eh?


The house slave thinking that he is smarter than the field slave.eh?

LibForestPaul
04-07-2013, 05:05 PM
We are the greates country in the world. We have some of the most educated people, diverse race of people, resouce rich land, massive military ever known. And yet Italians, French, Germans, all live "better". Ever wonder why resource rich lands, with educated people such as America, Russia, Chinese, Brazil, Argentina should have a high standard of living but dont?Hint: starts with bank and ryhmes with gangster$.

As george carlin said "You all being fucked"

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 05:06 PM
And hello to the USA from the rest of the world who did not understand how two people who do the compete same line of work can have a 1-4/5 ratio in salaries.The bad part for the USA worker is that the salaries will not equalize on the high end of the scale but on the lower one.

Yay, globalization.

A race to the bottom.

amy31416
04-07-2013, 05:10 PM
I have seen physical labor. I watched while standing at a train platform a crew of guys replace track and tie rods. It was maybe 80 degrees out, not too hot. These guys where HUGE. And they busted their asses, in 80 degree weather. And they were mostly white. And I thought to myself "White, I guess union and good pay." Then I thought, hell even at $100hr, I would run from this job. Physical labor sucks, at least for me. Would have ripped my back out in an hour.

Yeah--Kludge applied for a job with Western Southern that sounds a lot like that. I was close to happy that they never contacted him. Seemed like one of those jobs where you could get crushed and lose limbs, if not your life. It did pay quite well though.

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 05:12 PM
Yep. Stupid url by the author, though.


Full disclosure: I had already heard this story previously, so just did a Google search and her "article" was among the first to pop up.

* * *

Also: I am well aware that I could probably make more in a dangerous or more physical field, but I'm okay with what I'm making, and I have a weakness for climate control :D

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 05:15 PM
I have seen physical labor. I watched while standing at a train platform a crew of guys replace track and tie rods. It was maybe 80 degrees out, not too hot. These guys where HUGE. And they busted their asses, in 80 degree weather. And they were mostly white. And I thought to myself "White, I guess union and good pay." Then I thought, hell even at $100hr, I would run from this job. Physical labor sucks, at least for me. Would have ripped my back out in an hour.


You build muscles you didn't know you had. Some of them were probably huge as a result of the work. 200 years ago, nearly nothing happened without physical labor. It's not because they were all musclebound giants.

If anyone wants to offer me a job for $100/hr, PM me. I'll dig trees, carry hod, whatever. I might only want to work 10 hours a week at that rate. I have a feeling I don't need to clear out my inbox.

tttppp
04-07-2013, 05:16 PM
to keep an eye on your every move. its a mental fuck to know youre being watched all the time.

Exactly, the cameras are just there to fuck with employees and make their work as miserable as possible. For most managers, thats the only way they know how to manage people.

Demigod
04-07-2013, 05:17 PM
Yay, globalization.

A race to the bottom.

It is not globalization in this case as it is free trade.Workers in China can do everything American workers can do for a few times lower salary.There are 3 choices either increase productivity ( which is limited by human flesh ) , decrease paycheck or see your job shipped to somewhere else.And don't believe the union propaganda of how the USA worker is the hardest working in the world because it is FAR FAR away from the truth.

The only way out is to get a skill that is high in demand.I don't see brain surgeons complaining how "They took our jobs"

tttppp
04-07-2013, 05:19 PM
LOL, that's funny.

The new dynamic, the new system, is total surveillance, both by government and by business.

You will be monitored for compliance at all times.

And the "right" screams when government does it.

And the "left" screams when business does it.

And somehow I'm the lone weirdo that says NOBODY should have the fucking right to do that.


There is nothing wrong with businesses doing it. You can always go somewhere else. I just pointed out that in most situations its bad business to place cameras on employees all the time.

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 05:22 PM
There is nothing wrong with businesses doing it. You can always go somewhere else. I just pointed out that in most situations its bad business to place cameras on employees all the time.

Agreed, actually. Most companies only watch what is precious to them and worth the expenditure of resources to guard. For instance, we don't have cameras where I work... but I know that my email could be read at any time, and that if I make long distance calls using my work phone it will become an issue.

tttppp
04-07-2013, 05:25 PM
Agreed, actually. Most companies only watch what is precious to them and worth the expenditure of resources to guard. For instance, we don't have cameras where I work... but I know that my email could be read at any time, and that if I make long distance calls using my work phone it will become an issue.

Thats usually just used as an excuse to fire you if they want to. I was fired for inappropriate computer use for getting a virus on my computer.

Demigod
04-07-2013, 05:25 PM
Yeah--Kludge applied for a job with Western Southern that sounds a lot like that. I was close to happy that they never contacted him. Seemed like one of those jobs where you could get crushed and lose limbs, if not your life. It did pay quite well though.

The only problem with repairing and building railroads is that there is not fixed work time.You are home for 2 months than gone for 4-5 without rest than home again until the weather improves or some other team does their job first.My cousin is a chief engineer in one,and so far he has only mentioned only once a work accident where one of the rails fell and hit a worker and broke his hip but every field work has risk involved and working on rails is not a very dangerous work place with machinery today doing most of the hardest work that was done by workers in the past.

LibForestPaul
04-07-2013, 05:31 PM
It is not globalization in this case as it is free trade.Workers in China can do everything American workers can do for a few times lower salary.There are 3 choices either increase productivity ( which is limited by human flesh ) , decrease paycheck or see your job shipped to somewhere else.And don't believe the union propaganda of how the USA worker is the hardest working in the world because it is FAR FAR away from the truth.

The only way out is to get a skill that is high in demand.I don't see brain surgeons complaining how "They took our jobs"

You are wrong. They do not complain because their jobs are protected at gunpoint with a license that they "pay" for, with large donations.. They are thousdands of PhDs in China, as well as here, who will work for far far less than Americans, and far less than doctors, yet are far more skilled and trained. These jobs that they take do not have a license and are not protected at gunpoint.

amy31416
04-07-2013, 05:32 PM
Oh--for folks that are looking for jobs, try indeed.com and local temp agencies.

donnay
04-07-2013, 05:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfu2A0ezq0

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 06:06 PM
It is not globalization in this case as it is free trade.Workers in China can do everything American workers can do for a few times lower salary.There are 3 choices either increase productivity ( which is limited by human flesh ) , decrease paycheck or see your job shipped to somewhere else.And don't believe the union propaganda of how the USA worker is the hardest working in the world because it is FAR FAR away from the truth.

The only way out is to get a skill that is high in demand.I don't see brain surgeons complaining how "They took our jobs"

LOL @ "Free Trade".

You must have missed my post from few days ago about visas being scooped up for foreign high tech workers.

We're gonna "free trade" ourselves right into poverty, bankruptcy and socialist revolution.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 06:07 PM
There is nothing wrong with businesses doing it. You can always go somewhere else. I just pointed out that in most situations its bad business to place cameras on employees all the time.

LOL @ "taking your business or employment elsewhere".

Tell that to me in few years when we all have surveillance boxes in our cars in order to buy "insurance".

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 06:10 PM
LOL @ "Free Trade".

You must have missed my post from few days ago about visas being scooped up for foreign high tech workers.

We're gonna "free trade" ourselves right into poverty, bankruptcy and socialist revolution.


The new skills in high demand will be how to eat frogs and turtles, purify water, and tent living. Medical will always be there, but not like it is now. Ability to shoot and eat a squirrel will come in handy.

osan
04-07-2013, 06:12 PM
As employers push efficiency, the daily grind wears down workers

Gee, what a discovery. I was in the middle of this push 20 years ago, building the systems that make for all this efficiency. In the old world, this would have resulted in companies cutting off their noses to spite their faces because employees were actually valued, the absence of upper management blabbering about "our greatest resource" notwithstanding. Today, it is talk talk talk... empower the employee, greatest resource, and so on ad nauseum. In a typical company any employee empowering himself pursuant to the talk will find his manky hide on the street in about ten minutes.

We live in an era where EVERYTHING is bullshit. Bullshit has become the new truth. It is wildly insane and it is a clear indicator that the human race is fixing to come apart at the seams before a whole lot longer. I have lived through the changes and have watched them closely. Today's work-a-day world really sucks.


Many businesses no longer want long-term relationships with their employees,

Quantum change in circumstances. Disposable culture had to lead to disposable employees. It was inevitable.

Add the buyers market and they have you by the noots, even if you don't have any.



WESTFIELD, Mass. — The envelope factory where Lisa Weber works is hot and noisy. A fan she brought from home helps her keep cool as she maneuvers around whirring equipment to make her quota: 750 envelopes an hour, up from 500 a few years ago.


Thanks the scum who brought us "made in China". When you have people making envelopes at $0.20 per hour, you'd better be certain that is going to have a tremendously adverse effect on those companies in the USA that want to stay here and NOT go out of business. If customers can buy a box of 100 China-made envelopes for $1.70 and yours cost $4.50, guess what's going to happen.


The drudgery of work at National Envelope Co. used to be relieved by small perks — an annual picnic, free hams and turkeys over the holidays — but those have long since been eliminated.

Why should there be perks when management took it in the neck at the hands of unions for 80 years? Does anyone think there is zero payback occurring here? It isn't universal, but is isn't nonexistent either.


Work is seeping into off hours, as bosses pepper employees with email messages at night and on weekends. They monitor employees' Facebook pages and Twitter feeds for comments that conflict with the corporate message. The growing demands at the workplace mean people have less time to spend with their families or to help out with youth sports or other volunteer activities.


This is especially so of salaried employees. In 89 I managed a billion-dollar project for AT&T. I had 124 people under me and I was on conference calls at THREE AM at least once a week, every week for a year. I worked at least 6 days/week, often 7, and for not a penny's compensation extra. By the time I left that project I was a burnt weenie sandwich and I was only 31. Things got only worse after I went independent, but when a client is paying you $200/hour it isn't nearly as bad. $45K/month has its good side.


“If you're a highly skilled employee with highly marketable talents, they're going to pay dearly for you.

Perhaps, but the definition of "highly marketable" changes rapidly. Nobody is safe these days.



“You do what you have to do to keep the doors open,” he said.

This is truth.



When he started, Tayar said, he checked his voice mail every few hours. Today, lawyers must check their BlackBerrys every few minutes — and be prepared to cancel a dinner, weekend trip or vacation at a moment's notice. Tayar said he took just one day's vacation in a five-year stretch.


This was going on in my business 20 years ago. The one thing that has changed is that clients are no longer willing to pick up one's expenses - they expect us to get there on our nickle, which is incredibly idiotic - but the buyer's market enables this because if you don't like it, GTFO. There are a million other "yous" waiting to take your place.

Business is definitely going in the wrong direction, IMO. Taking the "maximizing the shareholder value" to such ridiculous extremes does not stand to do well in the long term. The human race is going 1000 mph toward a large and heavily reinforced concrete wall.

alucard13mmfmj
04-07-2013, 06:16 PM
There are plenty of jobs out there. But they are jobs like this that pay $10-12 an hour. It only makes sense that 90 million people are going to choose disability and unemployment checks over this. It's not 'just a safety net' when it makes more sense than working.

i work at a 8.50 an hour job (9-6 job). i drive 1 hour in heavy traffic to work and 1 hour home in heavy traffic. lunch is sometimes included... luckily.

i sell LED lights and LEd light accessories.

tttppp
04-07-2013, 06:19 PM
LOL @ "taking your business or employment elsewhere".

Tell that to me in few years when we all have surveillance boxes in our cars in order to buy "insurance".

If we had free markets that couldn't happen. We have that system now because of over regulation.

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 06:20 PM
Unless you're the one doing the movers' job (carrying and setting up boards, mics, etc), you're not doing tons of labor. (no, adjusting the pots and faders doesn't count as "tons of labor")You've never worked in the concert industry have you? :rolleyes:


LOL! I used to be something akin to a sound engineer, I'm sure many others have done that sort of work as well. And you consider printing to be physical labor to an extent that it should be mentioned? I've done my share of that as well, and don't consider it to be physical labor.Well that's because you don't know what you're talking about and are making assumptions.

TheTexan
04-07-2013, 06:22 PM
This guy's daily grind doesn't seem so bad


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3txM1Ghau-E

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Melnichenko

*cough* banker *cough*

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 06:28 PM
You've never worked in the concert industry have you? :rolleyes:

As a student engineer, yes. It's a skilled job, but not "tons of labor". The more you talk the more reasons you give me to doubt your credibility, you know. :P

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 06:30 PM
As for the skilled job thing, there is a high demand for physicians and specialists of many sorts (especially as many retire and not so many rise up to replace them). There is a primary care physician shortage in many areas that is going to become a major problem.

Now, if you have what it takes, you pass your classes, you don't mind the demands, you gamble on your student loans and are able to stay afloat long enough to start your practice someday, and you aren't sued into oblivion, you're right: you have pretty good job security.

Incidentally, regarding foreign workers, some of them were physicians or even surgeons back home. There isn't parity between the US and their home country, though, so literally some of them are working min wage jobs while they are trying to get licensed. Food for thought.

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 06:33 PM
As a student engineer, yes. It's a skilled job, but not "tons of labor". The more you talk the more reasons you give me to doubt your credibility, you know. :PNot sure what kind of cush gigs you had, but even as a seasoned experienced A1, many of my gigs are still strenuous manual labor.

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 06:35 PM
Stop picking on Collins.

That chiseled physique did not make itself.

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 06:36 PM
Not sure what kind of cush gigs you had, but even as a seasoned experienced A1, many of my gigs are still strenuous manual labor.
Like what? Unless you got suckered into doing the job that the setup crew is supposed to do, there isn't strenuous manual labor in sound engineering.

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 06:38 PM
Stop picking on Collins.

That chiseled physique did not make itself.
LMFAO!!!! :D :D

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 06:39 PM
Like what? Unless you got suckered into doing the job that the setup crew is supposed to do, there isn't strenuous manual labor in sound engineering.Sometimes, but often not.

PaulConventionWV
04-07-2013, 06:44 PM
Some of those places are friggin ruthless. They'll work you until you need surgery to repair your joints. Then they'll pay for the surgery, and give you a different job that will ruin your joints that still work. They view repetitive strain injuries and surgery as part of labor costs. Some of them might pay well compared to other available jobs, but the employees are trading money for their physical health. Many get trapped in such jobs by buying things on credit before they realize their body is being damaged to such an extent.

Work doesn't destroy your joints. Runners pound their knees every day, sometimes twice a day, and yet despite the myth that they're destroying their joints, they are healthier than other people because they take care of themselves. Poor health destroys joints. Your joints are designed to handle a lot more pressure than people give them credit for. It's when you mix hard work with a poor lifestyle that gives you bad joints.

KrokHead
04-07-2013, 06:47 PM
Great article, sadly these days the ball is in the employer's court. If you don't want to work there are countless people who will. Employers have no loyalty to employees simply because they don't have to. If a lot of people are hiring, then suddenly they'll play ball and have better benefits and bonuses.

Employers are shitheads. You only get a substantial raise if someone else is going to hire you, and if they catch you looking for work elsewhere they'll cut you loose and you'll be unattractive to hire.

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 06:52 PM
Sometimes, but often not.
So you consistently let the roadies and setup crew trick you into doing their job? lolz :D No wonder you're popular-you're a sucker! :D :D :D (traditionally, the engineer's job is routing signals and monitoring levels, you know...not that it's simple or easy-I was never good at routing-but that's what it is)

Origanalist
04-07-2013, 07:00 PM
Great article, sadly these days the ball is in the employer's court. If you don't want to work there are countless people who will. Employers have no loyalty to employees simply because they don't have to. If a lot of people are hiring, then suddenly they'll play ball and have better benefits and bonuses.

Employers are shitheads. You only get a substantial raise if someone else is going to hire you, and if they catch you looking for work elsewhere they'll cut you loose and you'll be unattractive to hire.

Have you ever run a business?

Carson
04-07-2013, 07:07 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m12as5gGKr1qiv3sto1_500.gif

Best reply in the thread.

abacabb
04-07-2013, 07:09 PM
Have you ever run a business?
Have you ever worked for one?

It's definitely true that companies generally treat people like commodities, manipulate them on a personal level, and only give you a raise when you have a better offer on the table.

Sullivan*
04-07-2013, 07:16 PM
Boo fuckity hoo !

Mr $32 an hour UPS driver, that $190 a day in over time pay must be so horrible :rolleyes:

Do you happen to know how hard the guys at the distribution center work to unload the semi trailers that come in non-stop every day? The drivers do the exact same thing, only each package has to be personally walked to someones door, sometimes you have to get a signature, other times some derpy asshat leaves his aggressive lab in the front yard (only path to the only door reasonably accessible), and then there's the douche bags that bitch you up and down because some other douche bag in a brown polyester uniform pushed in a corner on a box of useless shit he ordered last year.

The drivers making more money than the loading bay workers, for sure, but in a much less controlled environment, and in some derpy costume the executives force you to wear for liability reasons (there exist good reasons for the uniform, surely, however that's not why corporate mandates it.)

/rant

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 07:17 PM
Work doesn't destroy your joints.


I've watched it happen, in the exact circumstances I described. Have you ever had a repetitive strain injury? Ever work for a japanese transplant company, heavy on kaizan, as we are talking about? Working too hard, too fast, with too much weight, too much repetition, will absolutely destroy your joints. I know a lot of people who had surgery as a result, and none of them would want surgery if they didn't need it. Nor would the company pay for it if they didn't see it as part of their costs. The bold part is important. They aren't paying for unneeded surgeries and giving hobbled people, who don't eat well, new jobs when they refuse to perform their current jobs. It's a business strategy.

PaulConventionWV
04-07-2013, 07:17 PM
The only problem with repairing and building railroads is that there is not fixed work time.You are home for 2 months than gone for 4-5 without rest than home again until the weather improves or some other team does their job first.My cousin is a chief engineer in one,and so far he has only mentioned only once a work accident where one of the rails fell and hit a worker and broke his hip but every field work has risk involved and working on rails is not a very dangerous work place with machinery today doing most of the hardest work that was done by workers in the past.

Reminds me of how Jon Henry fought the steam engine. Seems silly now that he would work to death to defeat this new technology which improves people's lives.

Origanalist
04-07-2013, 07:18 PM
Have you ever worked for one?

It's definitely true that companies generally treat people like commodities, manipulate them on a personal level, and only give you a raise when you have a better offer on the table.

I have done both. It helps if you've walked both sides of the debate.

Carson
04-07-2013, 07:26 PM
These guys should look back to the Industrial Revolution to see what it REALLY meant to be pushed for efficiency :rolleyes:


I think that is their point. We are being pushed back in time to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and are no longer pushing forward into a better future.

When I was in school they talked about a goal of a 32 hour work week like some other countries had at the time. Though they most certainly didn't describe it in such a way as has come about.

I could go on about how they whacked the children we were about to have with abortions and birth control because there wasn't going to be enough room. At the same time they were opening the floodgates to illegal and legal immigration. That surly has aided in the driving down of wages and living conditions.

MRK
04-07-2013, 07:27 PM
I find it interesting that the general consensus here is that employers will try to take advantage of you at almost any opportunity, yet many people on this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?410163-Gunsmithing-as-a-part-time-career-Or-finish-my-BA-in-poli-sci-I-am-at-a-crossroads&highlight=gunsmithing) suggested the original poster should go the BA route instead of learning a trade like gunsmithing because it would make you a better candidate for employment.

Just what is it exactly you are missing out on as an employee again?

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 07:28 PM
So you consistently let the roadies and setup crew trick you into doing their job?No, sometimes there aren't enough of them to go around. Sometimes things are late and we have to catch up. Sometimes the crew is lazy, incompetent, or can't speak the language. Sometimes I just don't have time to wait on them. Sometimes I have to do things myself because there is no crew, especially on the small gigs.

In the real world, often times a good crew is rare, which means I have to pitch in on the labor on top of the real engineering stuff.

PaulConventionWV
04-07-2013, 07:32 PM
I've watched it happen, in the exact circumstances I described. Have you ever had a repetitive strain injury? Ever work for a japanese transplant company, heavy on kaizan, as we are talking about? Working too hard, too fast, with too much weight, too much repetition, will absolutely destroy your joints. I know a lot of people who had surgery as a result, and none of them would want surgery if they didn't need it. Nor would the company pay for it if they didn't see it as part of their costs. The bold part is important. They aren't paying for unneeded surgeries and giving hobbled people, who don't eat well, new jobs when they refuse to perform their current jobs. It's a business strategy.

Oh, believe me. I've had TONS of repetitive strain injury. More than most people, but I always recovered and my joints were just as good as before. I stand by what I said. Most injuries are preventable, and they are almost always reparable. Many people get tricked into having surgery when they don't need it because they don't know how to properly take care of themselves. The problem is that much of this stuff isn't mainstream. A tendon injury can seem irreparable if all you do is rest, but believe me there are certain methods, which I have used successfuly, to treat any time of repetitive strain injury. I've had tendon strains, muscle strains, stress fractures, and various other knots and strains, but I always recovered. Heavy weight usually isn't a problem unless you are a body builder lifting massive weights, in which case you can actually TEAR a muscle. Now THAT is a serious injury. It will recover, but it will take a long ass time.

No employer I know of ever checked people's lifestyles before hiring. That's because almost everyone lives and eats poorly. Screening workers for good health habits would take way too much effort for way too little gains.

Out of curiosity, have you ever run 90 miles per week, twice a day? I didn't think so. I had teammates who ran 120 miles per week. I couldn't handle that load with out repeatedly breaking down, but some can. Either way, you can almost always recover given enough time. The company doesn't want to give you that time, though, so you have to get surgery so you can keep right on slavin'. Surgery is what makes your joints weak and does irreparable long-term harm. You think it's the work that's destroying your joints, but it's actually the process of working and opting for surgery instead of recovery that results in the long-term weakening of your cartilage. The problem is that nobody really knows how to recover. Recovery, when done right, actually promotes long-term strengthening.

angelatc
04-07-2013, 07:41 PM
I have seen physical labor. I watched while standing at a train platform a crew of guys replace track and tie rods. It was maybe 80 degrees out, not too hot. These guys where HUGE. And they busted their asses, in 80 degree weather. And they were mostly white. And I thought to myself "White, I guess union and good pay." Then I thought, hell even at $100hr, I would run from this job. Physical labor sucks, at least for me. Would have ripped my back out in an hour.


I felt that way about the roofers in Florida. It would be 90 degrees, and they'd be up on the roof spreading hot tar around. I'd starve if I had to do that.

angelatc
04-07-2013, 07:43 PM
Have you ever worked for one?

It's definitely true that companies generally treat people like commodities, manipulate them on a personal level, and only give you a raise when you have a better offer on the table.

That's actually not true at all. Well, not in all cases. But employees are commodities.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 07:43 PM
Out of curiosity, have you ever run 90 miles per week, twice a day? I didn't think so.


Why ask if you knew the answer? Running is a very natural motion. It's what we naturally do. Putting two horns in an izuzu, putting on two headlights, securing a steering wheel, then pounding on a few interior panels, 60 times per hour, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week... for years... it is full of very unnatural motions you can't even compare to running... running is something we are built for.

Why do you think these employers pay for these surgeries, then give people paid time off, and give them a different, often easier job when they get back?

Do you think these businesses are stupid and making losses by paying for idiot behavior and unneeded surgeries?

PaulConventionWV
04-07-2013, 07:53 PM
Why ask if you knew the answer? Running is a very natural motion. It's what we naturally do. Putting two horns in an izuzu, putting on two headlights, securing a steering wheel, then pounding on a few interior panels, 60 times per hour, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week... for years... it is full of very unnatural motions you can't even compare to running... running is something we are built for.

Why do you think these employers pay for these surgeries, then give people paid time off, and give them a different, often easier job when they get back?

Do you think these businesses are stupid and making losses by paying for idiot behavior and unneeded surgeries?

I already told you most people don't even know how to recover, so I'm not surprised if neither the business nor the employee knows what to do in such instances. Surgery is just the easy way out. It takes a lot less effort for a business to get someone surgery than to teach them proper healing techniques and life habits. That way, the worker can keep working relatively soon after surgery until they are broken and thrown out like a used rag. It's not in their interest to teach someone the proper way to handle the kind of work they're doing.

As for unnatural motions, point taken, but people tell me that because I pounded my knees years I am going to be hobbling around in old age, but I've never had surgery and I can guarantee you that I'll be better off than most people in old age because I knew how to take care of myself. Just curious, though, what kind of "unnatural motions" are involved in putting on horns, headlights, and steering wheels in a car?

Mike4Freedom
04-07-2013, 07:55 PM
deleted

Origanalist
04-07-2013, 07:57 PM
I have been an employee at UPS for 13 years. I load trucks at night full time. It does beat you up. You are right about recovery, the problem is if you get tendinitus or something along those lines, you cannot get the time off to heal. Also, the company always says "Wear and tear" does not exist. I eat extremely healthy. I drink raw milk, mostly raw foods (except raw meat) I get plenty of the good fats (coconut, olive oil, hemp oil) and whatnot. I still have aches and pains that can get pretty bad sometimes and I am only 32. Granted, I do not take aspirin or anything and will refuse to do so but getting time off to heal is not an option. I usually notice after a vacation that my pains go away and return again after a few weeks. I have tendinitus in my elbows and a decent amount of lower back pain. Our pension plan is going into the shitter and we have no 401k matching. We have great medical benefits that I do not use because standard medicine is aweful. So that 32 dollar hour wage is what I need so I can retire younger my investing on my own and hopefully all my body can fully heal if I retire young enough.

Also, around 6 years ago before the 08 crash happened on average an employee would load 3 - 4 trucks a night, now you are working up front for around an hour then you go back to your area and have to load 6 trucks and each truck has 50% more stops on them. So we are doing twice as much work and I tell you what when top rate was 24 dollars an hour and we did 3 - 4 trucks, that 24 dollars back then bought a lot more stuff then 32 dollars does today doing twice as much work as well.

Suck it up and learn how to take care of yourself. You're just not living right.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 08:05 PM
I already told you most people don't even know how to recover, so I'm not surprised if neither the business nor the employee knows what to do in such instances. Surgery is just the easy way out. It takes a lot less effort for a business to get someone surgery than to teach them proper healing techniques and life habits. That way, the worker can keep working relatively soon after surgery until they are broken and thrown out like a used rag. It's not in their interest to teach someone the proper way to handle the kind of work they're doing.

As for unnatural motions, point taken, but people tell me that because I pounded my knees years I am going to be hobbling around in old age, but I've never had surgery and I can guarantee you that I'll be better off than most people in old age because I knew how to take care of myself. Just curious, though, what kind of "unnatural motions" are involved in putting on horns, headlights, and steering wheels in a car?


Sorry, I just don't have more information I can help with. Apparently, you have to experience it, for you to believe it. You can try to get a job at a japanese auto plant, or supplier. Short of that, I've already said what I can say. I'll just say once more, clearly. They aren't stupid. They have a working business model. I find it immoral, but not illegal. It may be unethical in the sense that new employees don't understand what they are getting themselves into in a lot of cases. They have doctors on site, on staff, full time to deal with "injuries" and get people back to work as fast as possible. They know what they are doing. You've probably never heard of anything like it.

Mike4Freedom
04-07-2013, 08:06 PM
Suck it up and learn how to take care of yourself. You're just not living right.

Umm, you must not have read the middle of the first paragraph. I am 100% certain my diet is far superior to yours.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
04-07-2013, 08:08 PM
Suck it up and learn how to take care of yourself. You're just not living right.


Now you're trolling. lol

UPS is pretty bad. Their good point is that the load and unload usually only work 4 hours per day. Or they used to, anyway.

Origanalist
04-07-2013, 08:10 PM
Umm, you must not have read the middle of the first paragraph. I am 100% certain my diet is far superior to yours.

No way, you can't top whiskey and beer.

Mike4Freedom
04-07-2013, 08:10 PM
deleted

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 08:13 PM
Stop picking on Collins.

That chiseled physique did not make itself.

I have one of those myself...half round.

Brian4Liberty
04-07-2013, 08:17 PM
Suck it up and learn how to take care of yourself. You're just not living right.

Lol. You need the /s though. Subtle humor is difficult to relay on the intertubes.

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 08:20 PM
Oh, believe me. I've had TONS of repetitive strain injury. More than most people, but I always recovered and my joints were just as good as before. I stand by what I said. Most injuries are preventable, and they are almost always reparable. Many people get tricked into having surgery when they don't need it because they don't know how to properly take care of themselves. The problem is that much of this stuff isn't mainstream. A tendon injury can seem irreparable if all you do is rest, but believe me there are certain methods, which I have used successfuly, to treat any time of repetitive strain injury. I've had tendon strains, muscle strains, stress fractures, and various other knots and strains, but I always recovered. Heavy weight usually isn't a problem unless you are a body builder lifting massive weights, in which case you can actually TEAR a muscle. Now THAT is a serious injury. It will recover, but it will take a long ass time.

No employer I know of ever checked people's lifestyles before hiring. That's because almost everyone lives and eats poorly. Screening workers for good health habits would take way too much effort for way too little gains.

Out of curiosity, have you ever run 90 miles per week, twice a day? I didn't think so. I had teammates who ran 120 miles per week. I couldn't handle that load with out repeatedly breaking down, but some can. Either way, you can almost always recover given enough time. The company doesn't want to give you that time, though, so you have to get surgery so you can keep right on slavin'. Surgery is what makes your joints weak and does irreparable long-term harm. You think it's the work that's destroying your joints, but it's actually the process of working and opting for surgery instead of recovery that results in the long-term weakening of your cartilage. The problem is that nobody really knows how to recover. Recovery, when done right, actually promotes long-term strengthening.

You've said it yourself: given a perfect recovery period, appropriate medical care, a healthy lifestyle (which also includes getting enough rest, proper diet, a good amount of motion besides the ones you repeat all day at work, and a means to resolve stress), you can recover from joint issues.

And injuries that go largely undiagnosed (my wrist hurts but I don't know why) tend to just get worse over time, especially if the action that contributed to the original injury is repeated over and over and over and over and over and over again.

So how many people do you think have access to appropriate medical care, are able to have a healthy lifestyle (if they are working as often as the examples in this thread suggest, plus a commute, for the amount of pay described), and despite being hourly are able to take off the days or weeks (or months depending on the joint) to heal properly, not to mention getting the physical therapy to assist with the healing process?

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 08:20 PM
No, sometimes there aren't enough of them to go around. Sometimes things are late and we have to catch up. Sometimes the crew is lazy, incompetent, or can't speak the language. Sometimes I just don't have time to wait on them. Sometimes I have to do things myself because there is no crew, especially on the small gigs.

In the real world, often times a good crew is rare, which means I have to pitch in on the labor on top of the real engineering stuff.
Okay, so you have unique circumstances. I personally have seen plenty of good crews (and was on one once when I was a student). You job still isn't inherently labor-intensive. Perhaps if you start working higher class gigs (jazz, classical, etc) you won't have these sort of problems.

amy31416
04-07-2013, 08:22 PM
You've never worked in the concert industry have you? :rolleyes:

Well that's because you don't know what you're talking about and are making assumptions.

If you consider that hard labor, you haven't worked in jobs that actually require it. I know because I've done it.

By the way, constantly saying "you don't know what you're talking about" is hardly making a case for yourself.

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 08:24 PM
Umm, you must not have read the middle of the first paragraph. I am 100% certain my diet is far superior to yours.
Why don't you take asprin? When I get aches, strains, etc from my workouts I use it, even though other guys I know use stronger anti-inflamation stuff like ibuprofen. Combined with an ice pack regamine, asprin works fine for me. :)

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 08:25 PM
If you consider that hard labor, you haven't worked in jobs that actually require it. I know because I've done it.

By the way, constantly saying "you don't know what you're talking about" is hardly making a case for yourself.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to amy31416 again. :( Sorry, babe.

Mike4Freedom
04-07-2013, 08:27 PM
Why don't you take asprin? When I get aches, strains, etc from my workouts I use it, even though other guys I know use stronger anti-inflamation stuff like ibuprofen. Combined with an ice pack regamine, asprin works fine for me. :)

I do not take any pharmaceuticals whatsoever.

Origanalist
04-07-2013, 08:29 PM
Lol. You need the /s though. Subtle humor is difficult to relay on the intertubes.

I have a bad habit of forgetting that.....

Mike4Freedom
04-07-2013, 08:31 PM
I have a bad habit of forgetting that.....

Oh, haha. Yeah the /s would of been helpful, lol

amy31416
04-07-2013, 08:41 PM
No, sometimes there aren't enough of them to go around. Sometimes things are late and we have to catch up. Sometimes the crew is lazy, incompetent, or can't speak the language. Sometimes I just don't have time to wait on them. Sometimes I have to do things myself because there is no crew, especially on the small gigs.

In the real world, often times a good crew is rare, which means I have to pitch in on the labor on top of the real engineering stuff.

So you're calling occasionally having to carry an amp on stage hard labor? I did this early on in college and helped set up and break down the entire set--never once did I consider it "hard labor." And that's just once or 3x a week, max. People who work truly difficult jobs are there practically 24/7--and you compare your bullshit to genuine hard work?

Seriously? I have a pretty tiara for you, princess.

You are warped and mushy.

Origanalist
04-07-2013, 08:44 PM
So you're calling occasionally having to carry an amp on stage hard labor? I did this early on in college and helped set up and break down the entire set--never once did I consider it "hard labor." And that's just once or 3x a week, max. People who work truly difficult jobs are there practically 24/7--and you compare your bullshit to genuine hard work?

Seriously? I have a pretty tiara for you, princess.

You are warped and mushy.

I'm warped, but not mushy.

MelissaWV
04-07-2013, 08:47 PM
Using a whole lot of aspirin on a regular basis is really godawful. It is likely to catch up to you.

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 09:13 PM
Using a whole lot of aspirin on a regular basis is really godawful. It is likely to catch up to you.
True. Всё в меру (everything in moderation).

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 09:14 PM
So you're calling occasionally having to carry an amp on stage hard labor? I did this early on in college and helped set up and break down the entire set--never once did I consider it "hard labor." And that's just once or 3x a week, max. People who work truly difficult jobs are there practically 24/7--and you compare your bullshit to genuine hard work?

Seriously? I have a pretty tiara for you, princess.

You are warped and mushy.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to amy31416 again. I need a rep raise! :(

You gave me the giggles with those last few lines. :D

Origanalist
04-07-2013, 09:16 PM
Using a whole lot of aspirin on a regular basis is really godawful. It is likely to catch up to you.

This is true, and constantly thin blood isn't always a good thing. But upon occasion I will use it.

oyarde
04-07-2013, 09:36 PM
This is true, and constantly thin blood isn't always a good thing. But upon occasion I will use it.

Now you tell me , I probably could have used that info 35 years ago ...

MRK
04-07-2013, 09:40 PM
This is true, and constantly thin blood isn't always a good thing. But upon occasion I will use it.

Yeah, I think NSAIDs would be a class of drugs that have a list of side effects so long that a voice couldn't list all of them in a 30 second commercial.

heavenlyboy34
04-07-2013, 09:46 PM
Yeah, I think NSAIDs would be a class of drugs that have a list of side effects so long that a voice couldn't list all of them in a 30 second commercial.
True. That is why I reach for ice before asprin for typical pains and aches like muscle/joint injury after vigorous exercise.

PaulConventionWV
04-07-2013, 10:20 PM
I have been an employee at UPS for 13 years. I load trucks at night full time. It does beat you up. You are right about recovery, the problem is if you get tendinitus or something along those lines, you cannot get the time off to heal. Also, the company always says "Wear and tear" does not exist. I eat extremely healthy. I drink raw milk, mostly raw foods (except raw meat) I get plenty of the good fats (coconut, olive oil, hemp oil) and whatnot. I still have aches and pains that can get pretty bad sometimes and I am only 32. Granted, I do not take aspirin or anything and will refuse to do so but getting time off to heal is not an option. I usually notice after a vacation that my pains go away and return again after a few weeks. I have tendinitus in my elbows and a decent amount of lower back pain. Our pension plan is going into the shitter and we have no 401k matching. We have great medical benefits that I do not use because standard medicine is aweful. So that 32 dollar hour wage is what I need so I can retire younger my investing on my own and hopefully all my body can fully heal if I retire young enough.

Also, around 6 years ago before the 08 crash happened on average an employee would load 3 - 4 trucks a night, now you are working up front for around an hour then you go back to your area and have to load 6 trucks and each truck has 50% more stops on them. So we are doing twice as much work and I tell you what when top rate was 24 dollars an hour and we did 3 - 4 trucks, that 24 dollars back then bought a lot more stuff then 32 dollars does today doing twice as much work as well.

I could show you ways to heal that tendonitis without taking loads of time off. If your plan is simply to rest and recover, it's going to take forever. The blastocytes need to be stimulated to heal the tendon. Over the long term, however, it's sort of a myth that "overuse" will give you bad joints. Improper recovery will give you bad joints.

PaulConventionWV
04-07-2013, 10:32 PM
You've said it yourself: given a perfect recovery period, appropriate medical care, a healthy lifestyle (which also includes getting enough rest, proper diet, a good amount of motion besides the ones you repeat all day at work, and a means to resolve stress), you can recover from joint issues.

And injuries that go largely undiagnosed (my wrist hurts but I don't know why) tend to just get worse over time, especially if the action that contributed to the original injury is repeated over and over and over and over and over and over again.

So how many people do you think have access to appropriate medical care, are able to have a healthy lifestyle (if they are working as often as the examples in this thread suggest, plus a commute, for the amount of pay described), and despite being hourly are able to take off the days or weeks (or months depending on the joint) to heal properly, not to mention getting the physical therapy to assist with the healing process?

When I was a college runner, half of what I did consisted of keeping injuries at bay and healing them while still running or training in other ways. I could usually find out what an injury was in a few days and I had a plan to deal with each one, and I've done so quite effectively. You're right that it's a shame so many people are working long hours and not getting enough rest or finding the time to eat right, but my point was not to say that nobody should get injured. They're extremely hard to avoid even if you are taking every precaution. You may be able to prevent a lot of them, but not all of them. My point was more that people don't need to suffer in old age just because they worked and got injured. Many people used to tell me that I would have bad joints when I got older because of all the running I did, but I guarantee you I'll be better off than they will despite all that work. Work can be a good thing for your body and your body can handle a lot of work in less than ideal conditions as long as you make an effort to do the right things involved in health maintenance as well as injury recovery.

PaulConventionWV
04-07-2013, 10:34 PM
Why don't you take asprin? When I get aches, strains, etc from my workouts I use it, even though other guys I know use stronger anti-inflamation stuff like ibuprofen. Combined with an ice pack regamine, asprin works fine for me. :)

It masks pain. It doesn't heal. If you are sore or hurting, your body is trying to tell you something, and taking aspirin or other pain killers is like telling your body to shut up, even if what it has to say is very important.

enhanced_deficit
04-07-2013, 10:54 PM
It is natural outcome of a lot of US products being produced in places like China and other cheap and sometimes slave labor places. US workers in grpwing number of sectors are competing with cheap labor abroad. This cuts costs/maximizes profits for companies but adds downward pressure on job security/pay for US workers and even people in adavanced skills services linked to those sectors. The world is being "flattened" at a greater pace in last decade. Exit of wealth from US to pockets of profiteers from foreign adventures and currupt foreign governments adds to the pressures on common people mostly.

Anti Federalist
04-07-2013, 10:57 PM
It masks pain. It doesn't heal. If you are sore or hurting, your body is trying to tell you something, and taking aspirin or other pain killers is like telling your body to shut up, even if what it has to say is very important.

Well, yah, pretty much...

"Hello brain, yeah, this is the lower back...yeah he did it again."

"Lower back, this is brain...look, I've been told to stfu, OK...I'd love to help, but I can't, he's being a dumb ass again."

"Brain, this is lower back...god damn it."

James Madison
04-07-2013, 10:59 PM
So you're calling occasionally having to carry an amp on stage hard labor? I did this early on in college and helped set up and break down the entire set--never once did I consider it "hard labor." And that's just once or 3x a week, max. People who work truly difficult jobs are there practically 24/7--and you compare your bullshit to genuine hard work?

Seriously? I have a pretty tiara for you, princess.

You are warped and mushy.

Now, now, Amy. Go soft on the Collins. It isn't easy to carry an amp on stage when the amp is bigger than you are.:D

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 11:27 PM
Now, now, Amy. Go soft on the Collins. It isn't easy to carry an amp on stage when the amp is bigger than you are.:DI know you were being funny, ha ha, but there is some truth to that. And seriously therein lies part of the problem. I can't manhandle the gear like a lot of the other guys can.

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 11:27 PM
So you're calling occasionally having to carry an amp on stage hard labor? I did this early on in college and helped set up and break down the entire set--never once did I consider it "hard labor." I assure you that you haven't done shows sized like the shows that I do on a regular basis.

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 11:28 PM
By the way, constantly saying "you don't know what you're talking about" is hardly making a case for yourself.There is an old saying, although I can't recall it specifically, but it goes something like 'if you waste your time arguing with a fool, it makes you one too' or something like that. That premise is why I don't bother engaging you in meaningful discussion most of the time. And no, I am not calling you a fool. I am however pointing out that analogy applies.

BAllen
04-07-2013, 11:30 PM
Using a whole lot of aspirin on a regular basis is really godawful. It is likely to catch up to you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU395t-mgwk

Matt Collins
04-07-2013, 11:31 PM
Perhaps if you start working higher class gigs (jazz, classical, etc) you won't have these sort of problems.Yeah, sometimes it works like that sometimes it doesn't.

I once got paid $550/day in a 5 star hotel once to sit next to the digital console for a week and make sure the guest engineers knew how to use it. I have recently had a gig that lasted over 30 hours from load-in to load-out and the "crew" consisted of barbacks for a major festival type of setup. They gave up and left after hour 6 leaving me and a couple of other guys to do the rest.

Obviously I prefer the cush gigs, but sometimes the cards don't fall that way.