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sailingaway
03-25-2013, 07:26 PM
http://instagram.com/p/XTOGpFBT6m/

FSP-Rebel
03-26-2013, 10:22 AM
Wonder how the turnout was

CaseyJones
03-26-2013, 10:24 AM
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/03/justin_amash_spars_with_aclu_d.html


GRAND RAPIDS, MI — If you gauged support by applause, U.S. Rep. Justin Amash and the head of Michigan's branch of the American Civil Liberties Union had fairly equal support Monday when debating political affronts to personal freedoms.

Chiefly, during a forum on controversial national security policies like drone strikes, Amash and ACLU of Michigan Executive Director Kary Moss were at odds over the civil liberties records of President George W. Bush or President Barack Obama.

"President Obama said a lot of things that haven't come true, and I think from a civil liberties standpoint, he's been very harmful to our country," said Amash, R-Cascade Township. "More harmful than President Bush."

Related: Amash testifies feds can 'snatch Americans from homes' under indefinite detention law

At issue were topics like the use of unmanned drones to kill terrorist suspects abroad, and a military policy allowing for indefinite detention of war-time combatants that critics say flies in the face of due process.

The Patriot Act, for instance, has been a controversial part of counterterrorism efforts more than a decade after being signed by Bush.

Key parts of that legislation, which created a more broad definition of terrorism and aimed to bolster ways to target suspects, have been extended under Obama.

But Moss, who hosted the forum with Amash at a packed Wealthy Theatre in Grand Rapids, let out a small laugh at Amash's insistence Obama has eroded civil liberties more than his predecessor.

"Having lived through the eight years of the Bush Administration, there's really been no comparison in terms of violations of civil liberties," Moss said, garnering applause. "Wire-tapping, the National Security Administration, the Patriot Act, don't even get me started."

Amash, a Cascade Township Republican, shot back, "But all of those things started under President Bush are continuing under President Obama," getting equally loud applause.

The pair traded polite barbs despite hosting the forum to discuss issues on which they agree, like the use of drones, indefinite detention and the Obama Administration's legal arguments for the targeted killing of Americans with suspected terrorist ties.

Moss conceded at the outset the ACLU does not agree with Amash on many issues.

Still, she said Amash had been helpful in other areas; during opening remarks, he noted indefinite detention came to his attention because of the ACLU.

Back on the topic of which president has the worst civil liberties record, Moss continued her disagreement with Amash.

Related: Indefinite detention: Michigan Senate approves bill prohibiting cooperation with federal government

"The ACLU has been a critic of the Obama Administration, we've been very consistent in sustaining our objections to a number of the kind of post-9/11 terrorism policies, so I'm not vacillating, I just disagree with your overall assessment about the impact of the two administrations," Moss said. "That was a pretty horrific time."

Amash, perhaps unintentionally triggering applause and laughter, said the difference is, in his opinion, that no one "had high expectations that President Bush was going to protect our civil liberties."

"When President Obama was elected, even though I'm a Republican, I was hopeful that at least he would pare back some of the civil liberties violations and I get to Congress," Amash said, "and one of the first things we're voting on is extending the Patriot Act. And the person who said he would sign it is President Obama."

Michigan11
03-27-2013, 03:22 PM
Sounds like theres a game strategy in place by our people to pull from the principled peeps of the left and right and it's confusing those making money off of this circus left/right paradigmn. Support Justin and you support not only your civil liberties but your economic freedom if you look further down the hole of the rabbit.

EBounding
03-27-2013, 07:26 PM
Real threat to traditional marriage religious liberty is government, not gay couples who love each other want to spend lives together. (https://twitter.com/repjustinamash/status/316747349043068928)

While I don't disagree that the government should get out of marriage, the leftist rhetoric makes me nervous. I think he needs to be more careful or else his primary opponents are going to hang him with this if he runs for Senate. Afterall, Michigan did vote to define marriage in the Constitution less than 10 years ago.