PDA

View Full Version : Study finds illegal downloading doesn’t harm music industry




Neil Desmond
03-25-2013, 05:15 PM
Found it here: http://thezeitgeistmovementforum.org/showthread.php?649-Study-finds-illegal-downloading-doesn’t-harm-music-industry

Here's the direct link to actual article: http://bgr.com/2013/03/20/music-piracy-study-digital-revenues-385611/

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 05:18 PM
Nice! :D

dannno
03-25-2013, 05:23 PM
Of course it doesn't harm the music industry, it BENEFITS the music industry. It's free fucking advertising!!

QuickZ06
03-25-2013, 05:26 PM
Wasn't there a study done that proved "piraters" spend more money on legal stuff regardless than "non-piraters"???

paulbot24
03-25-2013, 05:28 PM
Yep. Rum and wenches! They spend like crazy.

UpperDecker
03-25-2013, 05:30 PM
My only question is, is this study based on bigger acts and bigger labels or does it include independent artists and small labels?

dannno
03-25-2013, 05:33 PM
I'm just tired of all the bullshit arguments that if I download a cd I'm some how "stealing" from the band. Well while you are wasting all of your money buying the music and enriching the giant record labels, most people are actually going out and spending that money to see the bands perform live which usually costs around the price of multiple cds and the bands receive a much larger percentage. So I'M THE ONE enriching the musicians, you are the one enriching the music labels that have a monopoly on the music industry since they control the FCC.

dannno
03-25-2013, 05:34 PM
My only question is, is this study based on bigger acts and bigger labels or does it include independent artists and small labels?

Smaller independent bands have the most to gain by allowing their music to be freely distributed.

FriedChicken
03-25-2013, 05:35 PM
Eh, didn't read the study but think it would absurd to say this applies across the board.

paulbot24
03-25-2013, 05:38 PM
This is not the first time this has been proven. While every other industry has to adapt their business model and evolve with technology or become obsolete, the RIAA and MPAA would still rather sue and harass. Lobbyists Unite!

Seraphim
03-25-2013, 05:40 PM
This.

Bands like Linkin Park intuitively figured that out from the get-go. One of the biggest and most profitable bands in the world. ALL because they TOLD their fans to DL and copy their music as much as they wanted and to share it.

Now who has all of the biggest sold out shows? Linkin Park.


Of course it doesn't harm the music industry, it BENEFITS the music industry. It's free fucking advertising!!

UpperDecker
03-25-2013, 05:41 PM
Smaller independent bands have the most to gain by allowing their music to be freely distributed.

That's what I thought, but I have talked to many members of smaller bands and it sounds like they do get hurt. However, who knows since maybe it lead to some of their sales anyway. I would think that shows and merch sales for smaller bands would be where the money is at anyway.

Seraphim
03-25-2013, 05:41 PM
Publicity/exposure is AXIOMATIC for any type of entertainer.

It applies across the board to every musician who captures the essence and runs with it.


Eh, didn't read the study but think it would absurd to say this applies across the board.

Seraphim
03-25-2013, 05:43 PM
Those bands are whinny punks. THEY should be distributing as much of their music for free through digitical copies as they can.

IF they make good music, the exposure will have them explode faster than they imagined.


That's what I thought, but I have talked to many members of smaller bands and it sounds like they do get hurt. However, who knows since maybe it lead to some of their sales anyway. I would think that shows and merch sales for smaller bands would be where the money is at anyway.

UpperDecker
03-25-2013, 05:49 PM
Those bands are whinny punks. THEY should be distributing as much of their music for free through digitical copies as they can.

IF they make good music, the exposure will have them explode faster than they imagined.

These bands are being put through hell on the road to put on shows for their fans with no money, so I think it is unfair to call them whiny punks. They want to tour, some of them are foreign and would love to come to the US but don't have the money. It is tough for a touring band to go out on the road for 2 months with no money.

dannno
03-25-2013, 05:53 PM
Eh, didn't read the study but think it would absurd to say this applies across the board.

It's absurd to say that giving people access to more types of music won't get more people more interested to spend more money on music. People don't just spend money on albums, they like to go watch live music. In fact, that is what it is ALL about. Having the luxury of listening to music in your home is a bonus, most people used to have to PLAY music live to listen to it back in the day.

dannno
03-25-2013, 05:58 PM
That's what I thought, but I have talked to many members of smaller bands and it sounds like they do get hurt. However, who knows since maybe it lead to some of their sales anyway. I would think that shows and merch sales for smaller bands would be where the money is at anyway.

They don't get hurt by people spreading their music around for free, that's for damn sure. Most small bands have the biggest hurdle of overcoming the lack of exposure they get because all of the radio stations are controlled by a few very large nationwide companies, who control the FCC and don't allow a wider spectrum of music, including local music on the radio. You have to live near a fucking University usually just to hear non-commercial music on the radio. That's because the FCC has made it prohibitively expensive.

But guess what? Now we have the internet, fuck radio stations. They are obsolete now. The bands that get big today have facebook pages and give away free downloads of most or all of their music. Then they go on tour and facebook promotes their shows for them.

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 06:02 PM
This.

Bands like Linkin Park intuitively figured that out from the get-go. One of the biggest and most profitable bands in the world. ALL because they TOLD their fans to DL and copy their music as much as they wanted and to share it.

Now who has all of the biggest sold out shows? Linkin Park.
Allman Bros. and Grateful dead figured this out decades ago. :cool:

PaulConventionWV
03-25-2013, 06:02 PM
I'm just tired of all the bullshit arguments that if I download a cd I'm some how "stealing" from the band. Well while you are wasting all of your money buying the music and enriching the giant record labels, most people are actually going out and spending that money to see the bands perform live which usually costs around the price of multiple cds and the bands receive a much larger percentage. So I'M THE ONE enriching the musicians, you are the one enriching the music labels that have a monopoly on the music industry since they control the FCC.

And THAT is why it's illegal...

PaulConventionWV
03-25-2013, 06:04 PM
This.

Bands like Linkin Park intuitively figured that out from the get-go. One of the biggest and most profitable bands in the world. ALL because they TOLD their fans to DL and copy their music as much as they wanted and to share it.

Now who has all of the biggest sold out shows? Linkin Park.

LOL?

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 06:04 PM
It's absurd to say that giving people access to more types of music won't get more people more interested to spend more money on music. People don't just spend money on albums, they like to go watch live music. In fact, that is what it is ALL about. Having the luxury of listening to music in your home is a bonus, most people used to have to PLAY music live to listen to it back in the day.
This x a million^^ The proper way to look at recordings is as promotional material for live performances and works of recording art.

PaulConventionWV
03-25-2013, 06:08 PM
They don't get hurt by people spreading their music around for free, that's for damn sure. Most small bands have the biggest hurdle of overcoming the lack of exposure they get because all of the radio stations are controlled by a few very large nationwide companies, who control the FCC and don't allow a wider spectrum of music, including local music on the radio. You have to live near a fucking University usually just to hear non-commercial music on the radio. That's because the FCC has made it prohibitively expensive.

But guess what? Now we have the internet, fuck radio stations. They are obsolete now. The bands that get big today have facebook pages and give away free downloads of most or all of their music. Then they go on tour and facebook promotes their shows for them.

I wouldn't say they're obsolete. I actually prefer the radio station since I don't have an ipod or mp3, and I listen to it all the time in my car. Many of us like the element of surprise, not to mention some of the high quality shows you can find.

paulbot24
03-25-2013, 06:09 PM
"All your songs are belong to us."

Sincerely,

Evil masked internet bandits
https://a248.e.akamai.net/origin-cdn.volusion.com/xsubn.uuaae/v/vspfiles/photos/72-301-16-2T.jpg?1344713544

KrokHead
03-25-2013, 06:14 PM
This.

Bands like Linkin Park intuitively figured that out from the get-go. One of the biggest and most profitable bands in the world. ALL because they TOLD their fans to DL and copy their music as much as they wanted and to share it.

Now who has all of the biggest sold out shows? Linkin Park.

Chester also bitched that no one bought "Living Things" because ten million people already downloaded it illegally. (Did ten million people even illegally download "Burn It Down?") Illegal downloading killed the music industry, I don't feel like arguing with whatever fake stats and insults y'all going to throw back at me. Back then ten million people would actually be stupid and buy a Bizkit or Creed CD because downloading it illegally wasn't a viable alternative. Now less of those flukes exist because you can just download the single and not suffer through the rest of the album.

I buy music and support the artists. Luckily, even if being a rock star isn't what it used to be, it's not going to stop good music from being made. In fact it'll be more of an artform rather than an inane get rich quick scheme.

dannno
03-25-2013, 06:18 PM
Illegal downloading killed the music industry

Funny cause it seems to me it is as big as it ever has been.

Chester doesn't understand his own band's strategy very well. When they play for sold out shows, that is when they get their revenue back from all of the people downloading it for free. People were copying cassette tapes like crazy in the 80s and early 90s so you can't pretend that it wouldn't still be happening today, but now instead of 3 million copied tapes you get 10 million copied downloads and up to 7 million more people ready to go see you live.

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 06:33 PM
Chester also bitched that no one bought "Living Things" because ten million people already downloaded it illegally. (Did ten million people even illegally download "Burn It Down?") Illegal downloading killed the music industry, I don't feel like arguing with whatever fake stats and insults y'all going to throw back at me. Back then ten million people would actually be stupid and buy a Bizkit or Creed CD because downloading it illegally wasn't a viable alternative. Now less of those flukes exist because you can just download the single and not suffer through the rest of the album.

No, the industry killed itself with its poor business model and glut of bad product.


I buy music and support the artists. Luckily, even if being a rock star isn't what it used to be, it's not going to stop good music from being made. In fact it'll be more of an artform rather than an inane get rich quick scheme.
Artists don't usually get much from the album sales. Labels keep most of it. Unless you're a Billboard top-20 type, you're losing money relying on that. Even people who buy music legally have moved heavily to mp3's, which makes albums irrelevant. Fortunately for music, the old model is dying off fast, and artists now have to produce music and perform (IOW, actually work​, which was standard practice before the corporate labels began).

Matt Collins
03-25-2013, 06:33 PM
Downloading is not unlawful, uploading and sharing (copying, transmitting, reproducing, etc) is what is unlawful.

QuickZ06
03-25-2013, 08:46 PM
I buy music and support the artists. Luckily, even if being a rock star isn't what it used to be, it's not going to stop good music from being made. In fact it'll be more of an artform rather than an inane get rich quick scheme.

Actually downloading does make for better music, i.e they have to make money off of live performances and tours without there fancy voice technology from the studio. Downloading does exactly what you want, produces good music. It makes the bad bands known (ever go to a concert and be like WTF they sound horrible live) I mean really what is the point of music if you fake your voice so to say?

As for the little bands crying about all this, no one forced them to join a band and try and "make it", I love music and could careless how big I got if I was apart of a band, as long as I got my message or song out and other people happen to enjoy it, so be it. What happened to making music for just music? Now it seems everyone has to make it big and live this Hollywood lifestyle. Beethoven had to bust his ass out there and perform and I am sure he did not complain one bit working his other jobs.

abacabb
03-27-2013, 04:40 PM
+rep for Krokhead

RPF seems to think that not paying for music is not stealing and banging an drunk unconscious girl is ok because by being an idiiot, she gives consent.

heavenlyboy34
03-27-2013, 04:45 PM
+rep for Krokhead

RPF seems to think that not paying for music is not stealing.
It isn't. Not even the IP laws call it "stealing" or "theft". It's just ignorant laymen, corporate music businessfolks, greedy/ignorant "creators", and ignorant/bought-off politicians who make this mistake. Educate yourself on the law, plz.

abacabb
03-27-2013, 05:00 PM
It isn't. Not even the IP laws call it "stealing" or "theft". It's just ignorant laymen, corporate music businessfolks, greedy/ignorant "creators", and ignorant/bought-off politicians who make this mistake. Educate yourself on the law, plz.
Then the bailouts weren't stealing, because the law made it so.

/threadwinner

I now ride off in the sunset.

emazur
03-27-2013, 05:01 PM
I intend to buy a lifetime subscription (all you can download) from magnatune.com in the near future. Though not full of the big name acts, they have a lot of quality music and they've been around a long time. They even let you use their music free for non-commercial purposes and distribute 3 copies of an an mp3 to others for free

phill4paul
03-27-2013, 05:03 PM
+rep for Krokhead

RPF seems to think that not paying for music is not stealing and banging an drunk unconscious girl is ok because by being an idiiot, she gives consent.

Way to over generalize and bring something into a conversation something that has no bearing. . :rolleyes:



I now ride off in the sunset.

Good riddance.

heavenlyboy34
03-27-2013, 05:16 PM
Then the bailouts weren't stealing, because the law made it so.

/threadwinner

I now ride off in the sunset.
No, that is a /epicfail. It isn't stealing because it isn't stealing. In the real world and the legal world, words have meaning-and copying is not synonymous with theft.
An educational video for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4
Sorry you have to stop riding off into the sunset now. /shrugs

phill4paul
03-27-2013, 05:24 PM
You young whippersnappers. Back in my day I had to set up the TAPE recorder by the radio and pirate my songs. There used to be a game show called "Name that Song."
Contestants would bet on how many notes they could name a particular song in. I got so good at knowing when to press 'Record' that in that time period I could probably name most songs in three notes. Glad there wasn't any jack boots kicking down my door. I could name this song in one. Lololol......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWRWYYt47RI

anaconda
03-27-2013, 05:33 PM
This San Francisco State professor has researched this extensively.

https://fresca.calstate.edu/faculty/2259#featured

heavenlyboy34
03-27-2013, 05:34 PM
You young whippersnappers. Back in my day I had to set up the TAPE recorder by the radio and pirate my songs. There used to be a game show called "Name that Song."
Contestants would bet on how many notes they could name a particular song in. I got so good at knowing when to press 'Record' that in that time period I could probably name most songs in three notes. Glad there wasn't any jack boots kicking down my door. I could name this song in one. Lololol......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWRWYYt47RI
I'll have you know that I'm old enough to have done lots of that sort of pirating myself. I had a few dozen tapes full at one time. :D Do you remember using tapes to copy CDs? Ya just start the recorder in the stereo and play the CD. :) When it's done, you have an analog copy of your friend's CD. :D

phill4paul
03-27-2013, 05:38 PM
I'll have you know that I'm old enough to have done lots of that sort of pirating myself. I had a few dozen tapes full at one time. :D Do you remember using tapes to copy CDs? Ya just start the recorder in the stereo and play the CD. :) When it's done, you have an analog copy of your friend's CD. :D

http://llwproductions.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/age-test-cassette-tape-and-pencil.jpg?w=642

heavenlyboy34
03-27-2013, 05:44 PM
http://llwproductions.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/age-test-cassette-tape-and-pencil.jpg?w=642
LOL!! :D Ah, memories... Some mechanical pencils are a good substitute. :cool:

Seraphim
03-27-2013, 07:16 PM
And for the record, I own all of their albums (Linkin Park) on hardcopy and paid for out of my own pocket. From teenager to young man. Many other bands very much the same.

Additonally, bands make their real money playing live gigs. Digi copies (and P2P sharing) make content distribution wide enough and economic so that touring is even viable. Profitable touring = touring can continue.

The top Execs at the highest grossing and fastest growing firms know that free publicity is what makes money pour in (at first). If you then back it up with a superior product, many of those new entrances to your market will stick with you.

Bands and music are no different.

A band that has touring aspiriations should be the first ones pushing their product freely through digi means. Bands who do this find enormous succes when they have the sound and talent to back it up. If your music rocks, then having people hear it (and as much as possible) creates success. Blocking P2P file swapping for songs, albums etc is highly, highly beneficial to the band.

Music creates and breeds passion, insight and joy. PEOPLE (market) very much want to hear it and share it. That process breeds success for the artist. People go to the shows, buy CDs, posters, tshirts...all that jazz.

Sampling allows people to find music. If music is not found, it cannot be bought or financially supported.

When an artist blocks that, or attempts to do so - it is like standing over your foot with a shotgun and pulling the trigger.


Chester also bitched that no one bought "Living Things" because ten million people already downloaded it illegally. (Did ten million people even illegally download "Burn It Down?") Illegal downloading killed the music industry, I don't feel like arguing with whatever fake stats and insults y'all going to throw back at me. Back then ten million people would actually be stupid and buy a Bizkit or Creed CD because downloading it illegally wasn't a viable alternative. Now less of those flukes exist because you can just download the single and not suffer through the rest of the album.

I buy music and support the artists. Luckily, even if being a rock star isn't what it used to be, it's not going to stop good music from being made. In fact it'll be more of an artform rather than an inane get rich quick scheme.

parocks
03-27-2013, 11:14 PM
I'm just tired of all the bullshit arguments that if I download a cd I'm some how "stealing" from the band. Well while you are wasting all of your money buying the music and enriching the giant record labels, most people are actually going out and spending that money to see the bands perform live which usually costs around the price of multiple cds and the bands receive a much larger percentage. So I'M THE ONE enriching the musicians, you are the one enriching the music labels that have a monopoly on the music industry since they control the FCC.

Yeah. that.

but the truth here is difficult to determine. I download a lot of free stuff. I see a good number of shows. I buy vinyl at shows as a souvenir. I don't know how much money I would spend on music if there wasn't so much free music available for download. I don't listen to the radio, and I don't like radio music. The unlimited free music has allowed non radio music (indie) to be heard very easily.

parocks
03-27-2013, 11:22 PM
That's what I thought, but I have talked to many members of smaller bands and it sounds like they do get hurt. However, who knows since maybe it lead to some of their sales anyway. I would think that shows and merch sales for smaller bands would be where the money is at anyway.

These bands don't know if they're getting hurt or not. They're probably seeing lower sales, or they they think people who downloaded for free would've bought.

I download a ton, no way I would buy most of what I download. The stuff that I end up liking, I'll go see live if they play near me. When I'm there I might buy vinyl.

parocks
03-27-2013, 11:35 PM
These bands are being put through hell on the road to put on shows for their fans with no money, so I think it is unfair to call them whiny punks. They want to tour, some of them are foreign and would love to come to the US but don't have the money. It is tough for a touring band to go out on the road for 2 months with no money.

They get paid to play the show. They sell merch at the show. I've bought vinyl at shows of material I've already downloaded. The economics can be discussed on a case by case basis. People aren't going to the show unless they know the music is one way to look at it, and the band isn't getting paid unless there are people at the show.

parocks
03-27-2013, 11:44 PM
Funny cause it seems to me it is as big as it ever has been.

Chester doesn't understand his own band's strategy very well. When they play for sold out shows, that is when they get their revenue back from all of the people downloading it for free. People were copying cassette tapes like crazy in the 80s and early 90s so you can't pretend that it wouldn't still be happening today, but now instead of 3 million copied tapes you get 10 million copied downloads and up to 7 million more people ready to go see you live.

Almost every single one of your replies is almost exactly what I would say.

1) The music industry is fine.
2) Radio is terrible
3) Free downloading helps the bands that can't get on the radio.

I would argue that the music industry, the majors, could think about cutting their costs, and if they can figure out how to do that, they'll be fine.
Not everything they release needs to be a home run. It's cheaper than ever to record something that sounds good. You can also spend a ton of money to do the same thing.

DamianTV
03-27-2013, 11:46 PM
Study finds illegal downloading doesn’t harm music industry

Thats true, but in the Game Industry, obscene DRM does hurt.

Team Meat: DRM worse for devs than piracy… (http://www.develop-online.net/news/43559/Team-Meat-DRM-worse-for-devs-than-piracy)

'Respect your customers and they may in turn purchase your game instead of pirating it'

Anti-piracy measures such as DRM are more damaging for developers than piracy, Super Meat Boy developer Tommy Refenes has said.

In a new blog post, the Team Meat developer said that disappointing game releases and frustrating DRM policies, such as SimCity with its early server troubles and always-online requirement, could create apathy among consumers, which he called a potential “swan song” for developers.

He went on to say that consumers were much more likely to buy from distributors they trust rather than ones they have been frustrated or slighted by before, with consumer confidence playing a huge role in how they spend money.


(article continues on link)

I've been slighted, and a great many other people have as well. Once I have, I turned my back on that company and have never purchased another product from them, period.

parocks
03-27-2013, 11:50 PM
I'll have you know that I'm old enough to have done lots of that sort of pirating myself. I had a few dozen tapes full at one time. :D Do you remember using tapes to copy CDs? Ya just start the recorder in the stereo and play the CD. :) When it's done, you have an analog copy of your friend's CD. :D

Vinyl to cassette for use in the car.

DamianTV
03-28-2013, 12:08 AM
I had a VCR at one point in my life, and even recorded some shows off air to watch later, which included the commercials. If they had their druthers, they'd consider that to be piracy as well.

heavenlyboy34
03-28-2013, 12:10 AM
I had a VCR at one point in my life, and even recorded some shows off air to watch later, which included the commercials. If they had their druthers, they'd consider that to be piracy as well.

I did that all the time when I watched TV. Had different tapes for my fave shows and general ones for interesting things that came on spontaneously.

jtap
03-28-2013, 07:40 AM
Downloading is not unlawful, uploading and sharing (copying, transmitting, reproducing, etc) is what is unlawful.

I think it's more complicated than that and that statement isn't always true.

Consider the situation where you are sharing an album which I download from you. I already own the rights to that album...but I don't feel like ripping it as downloading the mp3 from you, already encoded, is much easier. Nothing illegal transpired to my knowledge in that transaction and your uploading and sharing isn't unlawful, in that case (according to existing laws as I understand it - correct me if I'm wrong).

seraphson
03-28-2013, 08:37 AM
I can attest to this from personal experience. It's through an "illegal download" that I found a song so to my liking I purchased virtually all of artists' albums at the time.

Antischism
03-28-2013, 10:15 AM
Bands make their money through merch and touring. A band that puts out good music and earns good will with their current/future fans will make money, even if they give their music away for free on their website or bandcamp site, with the option for a suggested price or donation.

AFPVet
03-28-2013, 10:45 AM
I think it would be a smart business move to allow downloads of a couple songs from an album. Providing full samples would allow people to say "hmm... I like this" and not only buy the album—but go to the shows... and the shows are where the real money is made.

Matt Collins
03-28-2013, 10:56 AM
I think it's more complicated than that and that statement isn't always true.

Consider the situation where you are sharing an album which I download from you. I already own the rights to that album...but I don't feel like ripping it as downloading the mp3 from you, already encoded, is much easier. Nothing illegal transpired to my knowledge in that transaction and your uploading and sharing isn't unlawful, in that case (according to existing laws as I understand it - correct me if I'm wrong).

Good point. I do not recall what the law says about that. I know that personal backup copies are indeed allowed.

Matt Collins
03-28-2013, 10:56 AM
I can attest to this from personal experience. It's through an "illegal download" that I found a song so to my liking I purchased virtually all of artists' albums at the time.
Downloading isn't what is unlawful. Uploading is.