"Bless The Troops Because They Are Fighting For Our Freedoms"

[Christian Liberty]

Of course, I'm sure everyone here knows that this is bullcrap, and anyone who knows me knows that the thread title was sarcastic (I tried to put the "Rolleyes" smilie in the thread title but it didn't let me... Oh well. Anyone who neg reps this without actually reading it is shaming themselves enough, so oh well...

That said, I actually have had someone in our church, a prominent church member, and a man I greatly respect as long as we aren't discussing politics (I willingly admit to having weak faith, but when it comes to politics, even at my young age I feel like I'm the only one who's not totally brainwashed.... well, and my dad SOMETIMES doesn't seem brainwashed) pray for our troops to "Be successful as they fight for our freedoms." Now, a prayer for our troops, its not really something I do, although if someone I knew personally joined the military, I would. I've got no problem with praying for them to come home safely. In fact, as a Ron Paulian libertarian noninterventionist, I have MORE of a right to pray this than anyone else, since I want them to come home NOW and am advocating politically that they be brought home NOW. I have no special respect for them just because they joined the military, but most of the time (Anyone who was a libertarian in full knowledge BEFORE they joined is more guilty than what I am saying here) I realize that they didn't really know what they were doing, that they thought that they were defending their freedoms, that they wanted an education. Whatever. I won't hail them as heroes, but I'll pray that they be brought home safe.

But prayers for the troops WHO ARE DEFENDING OUR FREEDOMS is a whole different level. Honestly, if it was one of my peers, and not an older adult, I'd probably ask for him to show me his time machine, since he is most certainly from 1812, or if we want to be generous, maybe you could make the case that you could make that statement in 1941. But there is no way anyone SANE could claim that the US troops are defending our freedoms right now. Yet I've heard this same prayer prayed twice in a perod of four weeks. Its starting to get on my nerves. I've expressed my feelings about the issue to my dad, and while he's not a supporter of the War in Iraq or Neoconservatism (he's not a libertarian, as I said he's SOMETIMES brainwahsed...) He still saw no problem with the prayer in question. other than that all I've is open, and roll, my eyes. I wouldn't keep my eyes closed as if praying while listening to that crap. What's sad is that I actually respect the guy, and most other people in my church, when it comes to issues of faith, I look up to them and think highly of them. Its solely on the pseudo-political stuff when I wonder what they're smoking.

Fellow Christians who are anti-war, have you heard prayers like this in your church before? How did you respond? How do I avoid going insane? (This thread is at least somewhat a rant...)

[cajuncocoa]

Yes, that prayer is offered at my church each and every week. It irritates me greatly, but I don't respond (it wouldn't be appropriate to say anything in the middle of Mass). My silent prayer is that everyone will "get" that our troops are NOT fighting for our freedom.

[COpatriot]

American troops haven't fought for our freedoms for a very long time.

[Christian Liberty]

Yes, that prayer is offered at my church each and every week. It irritates me greatly, but I don't respond (it wouldn't be appropriate to say anything in the middle of Mass). My silent prayer is that everyone will "get" that our troops are NOT fighting for our freedom.

Well yeah, it wouldn't exactly be respecful in my church either, and it would definitely tick off my parents, who have definitely not yet swallowed the red pill. I know I can't say anything, but I still wanted to rant here, where hopefully everyone will agree with me.

Do they actually have to pray for the troops in this way during mass, or is it just something they choose to do? I honestly don't know that I would/could voluntarily go to a church that prayed this every single week. +1 for actually keeping some semblance of sanity!

[seyferjm]

I completely understand where you are coming from, in fact it sounds like your situation is almost identical to mine. My church has done this prayer on many occasions (the pastor has openly stated that it is the US's job to fight for Israel) and actually stopped going for some time because of this.

[Christian Liberty]

I completely understand where you are coming from, in fact it sounds like your situation is almost identical to mine. My church has done this prayer on many occasions (the pastor has openly stated that it is the US's job to fight for Israel) and actually stopped going for some time because of this.

My dad is the pastor, but he isn't the one that prayed this... Granted, he did say that there was nothing wrong with it, but he has also admitted that the War in Iraq was not for our freedoms. I guess the way he thinks is, although I can't ad verbatim quote this, if those wars are not "For our freedoms", if it weren't for our soldiers, we'd probably get attacked and so our troops being there are deterring would be attackers, so therefore the statement isn't completely inaccurate."

I can't really deny the possible accuracy of this, any libertarian that would need simply ask themselves how well having weak militaries worked for Iraq and Afghanistan. We aren't the only ones capable of being an Empire, China or Russia might well try if we didn't. I am all for a purely defensive military. The problem, the reality, is that this isn't actually what our troops are doing and "Woulda coulda shouldas" aren't reality. The reality is, we actually haven't been in a defensive war since at least 1941, and if you aren't feeling generous, you could argue all the way back to 1812.

I still live with my parents so "Not going" isn't really an option, not that I necessarily want to do that anyway. I take my faith seriously. I love my church. I just hate propaganda crap masquerading as church. If it were the entire service I'd refuse to go, but then, my parents would too.... Its just a random prayer and not really something that can be controlled. Its just stupid and annoying. I hate when Christians invoke the name of God to endorse evil...

I mean, can you imagine the reaction of a guy like Peter (The apostle) if Christians in Rome prayed for the brave Roman soldiers who were defending their freedoms?

[James Madison]

One of several reasons I stopped going to church.

[Christian Liberty]

One of several reasons I stopped going to church.

For curiosity, what are the others?

Sadly, most churches probably do this crap... I can't do it, but honestly if that was your reason for not going, I can't blame you...

I could never be a pastor,because if I were I wouldn't allow this crap in a church I was pastoring. Or if it was done, I would be too tempted to denounce it from the pulpit even if that isn't the place.

[Origanalist]

My dad is the pastor, but he isn't the one that prayed this... Granted, he did say that there was nothing wrong with it, but he has also admitted that the War in Iraq was not for our freedoms. I guess the way he thinks is, although I can't ad verbatim quote this, if those wars are not "For our freedoms", if it weren't for our soldiers, we'd probably get attacked and so our troops being there are deterring would be attackers, so therefore the statement isn't completely inaccurate."

I can't really deny the possible accuracy of this, any libertarian that would need simply ask themselves how well having weak militaries worked for Iraq and Afghanistan. We aren't the only ones capable of being an Empire, China or Russia might well try if we didn't. I am all for a purely defensive military. The problem, the reality, is that this isn't actually what our troops are doing and "Woulda coulda shouldas" aren't reality. The reality is, we actually haven't been in a defensive war since at least 1941, and if you aren't feeling generous, you could argue all the way back to 1812.

I still live with my parents so "Not going" isn't really an option, not that I necessarily want to do that anyway. I take my faith seriously. I love my church. I just hate propaganda crap masquerading as church. If it were the entire service I'd refuse to go, but then, my parents would too.... Its just a random prayer and not really something that can be controlled. Its just stupid and annoying. I hate when Christians invoke the name of God to endorse evil...

I mean, can you imagine the reaction of a guy like Peter (The apostle) if Christians in Rome prayed for the brave Roman soldiers who were defending their freedoms?

Iraq had a major military for the size of their country. But it wasn't so big that they would not have run out of operating room real quick. Ours is Empire size on steriods.

But not for long..........

[Christian Liberty]

Iraq had a major military for the size of their country. But it wasn't so big that they would not have run out of operating room real quick. Ours is Empire size on steriods.

But not for long..........

Yeah, that's true as well I suppose. My point was more that just defending yourself (Granted, Iraq attacked Iran, but as far as the US is concerned that's really as good as doing nothing...) doesn't actually guarantee that you will never get attacked. I don't think the US is excpetonally evil either, just exceptionally powerful. I have no doubt that if/when we lose the ability to be an empire, someone else were. If we were undefended, I freely admit we'd probably get attacked. That doesn't mean what our troops are doing ATM is "Defending freedom" however.

[seyferjm]

OP, do you read Laurance Vance's articles on LewRockwell? He is an excellent source for Christian anti-war writings.

[aGameOfThrones]

"Bless the troops Because They Are Fighting For Our Freedoms"

U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A 'Merica!

[James Madison]

For curiosity, what are the others?

Sadly, most churches probably do this crap... I can't do it, but honestly if that was your reason for not going, I can't blame you...

I could never be a pastor,because if I were I wouldn't allow this crap in a church I was pastoring. Or if it was done, I would be too tempted to denounce it from the pulpit even if that isn't the place.

Most churches subscribe to 'Social Gospel' and/or Dispensationalist theology. There's very little room for a Calvinist in either camp.

[cajuncocoa]

First, let me say: I'm not going to stop going to church over this. I'm going there to worship God; what other people do or why they go, that's for them to answer. I guess that's what keeps me from going insane...that, and because I know those people are brainwashed. If it was up to me to decide what to say up there on that pulpit, I would call for a prayer for peace...and for the wisdom (and decency) of world leaders to pursue peace, not war. In fact, that IS what I pray for. To others who are still going to church and having to deal with this, stop worrying about the congregation....just focus on God. Petition HIM in our cause for peace.

[Christian Liberty]

OP, do you read Laurance Vance's articles on LewRockwell? He is an excellent source for Christian anti-war writings.

Yep, I read Vance all the time. Every time I hear crap like I described, I agree with Vance more and more.

[fr33]

It won't win you any friends with the jingoist crowd but you could ask; If they are fighting for our freedoms, why are they losing so badly? We certainly haven't gained any freedoms lately nor are we holding on to the ones we have.

[Christian Liberty]

Most churches subscribe to 'Social Gospel' and/or Dispensationalist theology. There's very little room for a Calvinist in either camp.

I'm pretty sure the Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist churches are Calvinist...


First, let me say: I'm not going to stop going to church over this. I'm going there to worship God; what other people do or why they go, that's for them to answer. I guess that's what keeps me from going insane...that, and because I know those people are brainwashed. If it was up to me to decide what to say up there on that pulpit, I would call for a prayer for peace...and for the wisdom (and decency) of world leaders to pursue peace, not war. In fact, that IS what I pray for. To others who are still going to church and having to deal with this, stop worrying about the congregation....just focus on God. Petition HIM in our cause for peace.

Good on you. I wish I could double rep this. Hope you'll settle for one;)

[James Madison]

It won't win you any friends with the jingoist crowd but you could ask; If they are fighting for our freedoms, why are they losing so badly? We certainly haven't gained any freedoms lately nor are we holding on to the ones we have.

A similar line of logic can be applied to Christian Zionists. If God 'blesses those who bless Israel', why have our morals, our intellectual curiousity, our courage, and our nation's financial health been all but destroyed since we started 'blessing' Israel?

[Anti Federalist]

http://i.imgur.com/dSPl0DM.gif

[HOLLYWOOD]

Has anyone noticed... NASCAR no longer has Weapons of Mass Destruction flying overhead for opening ceremonies... but the jingoism is still blabbered especially during the benediction.

Let's take a quote from one of America's worse WAR CRIMES government criminal in history:

http://d.gr-assets.com/authors/1222460888p2/28442.jpg (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/28442.Henry_Kissinger)

“Military men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”
― Henry Kissinger (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/28442.Henry_Kissinger)

[Brian4Liberty]

Churchs are composed of people. Each is an individual. It is quite common for many members to deviate from the "official" church position, or to deviate from the Pastor's position. Every person has to chart their own course. Sometimes it is best for people to find the church they agree with the most, and then find a Pastor within that denomination that also agrees with them.

[Cutlerzzz]

I can't really deny the possible accuracy of this, any libertarian that would need simply ask themselves how well having weak militaries worked for Iraq and Afghanistan. We aren't the only ones capable of being an Empire, China or Russia might well try if we didn't. I am all for a purely defensive military. The problem, the reality, is that this isn't actually what our troops are doing and "Woulda coulda shouldas" aren't reality. The reality is, we actually haven't been in a defensive war since at least 1941, and if you aren't feeling generous, you could argue all the way back to 1812.



Iraq had a giant military that was pound for pound one of the biggest in the world. The US still stomped them twice because our GDP was around 100 times greater than theirs.

The best way to have a strong defense is to have a huge economy. The best way to have a huge economy is to limit government. If we went back to 5%+ annual GDP growth nobody could ever catch us.

[Matthew5]

Our parish only prays for the soldiers as individuals and never for their mission, so I'm grateful for that.

My previous church was non-denominational, and therefore the political opinions of whoever was in charge permeated deeply in every aspect of the church. A great reason why non-denominationalism is so dangerous.

Honestly, I left. And the neo-conservatism that had taken over the church was a major contributing factor to it (obviously not the main reason). However, one person interjecting their political opinion is hardly something to get too upset about. As long as it's not the political opinion of the church or denomination, I believe it's tolerable.

Have you tried approaching the person about it? The Gospel of Matthew says that if a brother has offended you, go to him in private.

[phill4paul]

God Bless Smedley Butler, Amen.

-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.


http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/warracket1.jpg

[abacabb]

A prayer for the troops isn't biblical, it's something from Old Covenant times where God literally fought battles.

[otherone]

Publicly offer a prayer for the people of Afghanistan and Syria. See the looks the Christians give you.

[Christian Liberty]

http://i.imgur.com/dSPl0DM.gif


+1.


Publicly offer a prayer for the people of Afghanistan and Syria. See the looks the Christians give you.

Good idea...

[jkr]

well
if they are
and they are not
they are NOT doing a very good job

[Aeroneous]

One thing I think we should keep in mind is that the average troop does look at their job as defending freedoms. Regardless of whether or not that's what they are currently engaged in (I'll leave that up to the individual to decide for themselves) these are people who care enough about a country to sacrifice quite a bit for it. Perhaps they are misguided or were confused about the best way to protect our freedoms when they enlisted, but they show the desire to sacrifice for their country. These are people who should be easily swayed to the liberty movement. I did not become informed about this movement, Ron Paul, or libertarianism until the later part of my military enlistment. Once I was informed, I was able to get my entire shop to support Ron Paul extremely easily. Look at the military donations to candidates during the primary election... Ron Paul dominated.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think we should look at military members as a highly probable source of allies. These are people who should require the least convincing with some basic education on the subject.

With regard to the church in the OP, my recommendation would be to reevaluate your goals for your church attendance. Perhaps you disagree with these prayers, which is fine, but apparently most of your church seems to be on board. You could try discussing the liberty agenda with some individuals one on one to try and sway them to your side, but publicly speaking out against the prayer is probably just going to just anger people and have a negative effect on your message. Keep the 1st Amendment in mind... these people have a right to practice their religion as they see fit. At some point you will just have to decide whether or not it's an issue you can just brush off (I know we're not good at that) or if it's one that warrants you searching for a new church that aligns more with your opinions.

[Natural Citizen]

What I see too often from the Church or from the majority in that community is that they, for the most part, produce the faithful to think like this as they pass through the doors and into the pew only to later become all too willing to be sent abroad to kill or to be sacrificed themselves in the name of some God or some sin. They are told that they fight for our freedoms as well but in effect it's the freedoms of Kellogg, Brown and Root that they fight for. They are establishing the platform for an economic occupation to continue once the military occupation has ended.

Here's a rather disturbing look at the Religious fundamentalism within the military from James Parco, PhD., Lt. Col. USAF (Ret.) for anyone interested in such research.

For God and Country: Religious Fundamentalism in the U.S. Military

In this position paper, James Parco provides compelling evidence there has been a disturbing expansion and entrenchment of Christian fundamentalism in the U.S. military, a cultural force which remains at times both tacitly and overtly endorsed by senior military leaders. Parco supports his claim by presenting a number of case studies demonstrating a clear pattern of unconstitutional religiously sectarian behavior. He then analyzes the merits of the competing philosophical perspectives on the proper role of religious expression by men and women in uniform.

Parco concludes the report with recommendations that those in power should implement immediately in order to fully protect the U.S. military’s necessarily secular foundation and the religious freedom of all who volunteer to serve.

James Parco, PhD., Lt. Col. USAF (Ret.) is an associate professor of economics and business at Colorado College. He graduated with a bachelors’ degree in economics from the U.S. Air Force Academy and was commissioned in 1991. He went on to earn an MBA from the College of William & Mary and a PhD. from the University of Arizona. After completing his doctorate, he returned to the faculty of the U.S. Air Force Academy. He has also served on the National Security Council at the White House during the Clinton Administration, as well as in a diplomatic capacity overseas with the American Embassy in Tel Aviv. Parco retired from active duty as a lieutenant colonel in 2011.

To download the author’s foreword, a summary of key findings, and the full position paper, please follow these links:
Foreword (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/ForGodandCountryForeword.pdf) (PDF)
Key Findings (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/ForGodAndCountryKeyFindings.pdf)(PDF)
Position Paper (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/For_God_and_Country_Parco.pdf) (PDF)

Copyright © 2013 Center for Inquiry, Inc. Permission is granted for this material to be shared for noncommercial, educational purposes, provided that this notice appears on the reproduced materials, the full authoritative version is retained, and copies are not altered. To disseminate otherwise or to publish requires written permission from the Center for Inquiry, Inc.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/ (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/)

[Sola_Fide]

I used to think that present day Christians in America had a problem with statism, but now I know that statism and Christianity are two distinct religions. You can only be one or the other...you can only serve one master with your mind and heart.

Statism is an idol and if you are going to a church that worships this idol, I would flee from it as fast as you can.

[Natural Citizen]

I'm not much on all of the ism's, S_F. Cripes, it seems like in the world of Religion there is an ism for every different moral position. Seems like a big old clusterfudge with everyone jockeying for some sort of relevance in what is essentially a product of it's own constant controversy.

My view is simple. Humans are one of two things. They are either good energy or they are bad energy. Bada bing. Can't get much simpler.

[fisharmor]

Statism is an idol and if you are going to a church that worships this idol, I would flee from it as fast as you can.

One thing to look out for is whether there is a US flag in the sanctuary, and if so, where it is.
If there is no US flag within the sanctuary, you're likely looking at a church that doesn't have statism on its list of priorities.
If there is a US flag but it's at the back of the sanctuary, then statism might make an occasional guest appearance, but the priorities are probably going to be limited to the tenets of the denomination in question. Mostly a good thing.

If the US flag is there and at the front of the sanctuary, then statism has a firm foothold there. Social gospel is probably the norm, the church probably borrows much (if not all) of its content from other church bodies, you most likely won't be able to get the clergy (if there is any) to take a doctrinal stand on anything, and basically what you're looking at is a god-themed social club.

My current church is a flag-in-the-back kind of place - they can't go full-bore antistatism because there are some pentagon gangsters in positions of authority there. However I'm pretty sure the head pastor reads stuff from Cato at least once in a while. Prayers tend to include calls for an end to violence, and a prayer for troops who are in harm's way - prayers for their safety, not for their success... though nothing is ever mentioned about the 4-year-old girls getting their faces melted off, either.

The most depressing thing about the place, though, is that it's a Zombie Safe House. You know how every zombie movie has the classic scene where the survivors are trapped inside and the zombies are beating the doors down, and naturally everyone inside isn't getting along... well, if zombies were relativists... you get the idea.

The thing I think you need to ask first is what do you think the job of the Church is? I have two basic criteria. 1) Preach the right Gospel. 2) Rightly administer the Sacraments.
Pontificating about foreign wars doesn't just not fulfill these two criteria. It actively gets in the way of them.

I submit that even if these aren't your two criteria, unless "tell me how to think about foreign wars" is on your list of criteria for your church (and I'd like to see what Scripture verses or even what Holy Traditions justify that criterion), then saying anything at all on the matter of foreign wars from the pulpit amounts to damnable nonsense.

[Sola_Fide]

I'm not much on all of the ism's, S_F. Cripes, it seems like in the world of Religion there is an ism for every different moral position. Seems like a big old clusterfudge with everyone jockying for some sort of relevance in what creates it's own constant controversy.

My view is simple. Humans are one of two things. They are either good energy or bad energy. Bada bing. Can't get much simpler.

The problem with that is there is no good or bad without Christian theism.

[bolil]

From War Prayer By Twain:


"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

from: hxxp://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/twain1.html

[paulbot24]

https://apeshits.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tumblr_m5jlmftbgl1qcpjxgo1_500.jpg?w=950

[Natural Citizen]

The problem with that is there is no good or bad without Christian theism.

Perhaps. Of course, if we start yapping about that here in the general it will most likely result in yet another very good and relevant thread being moved out of public view. So...maybe a discussion for someplace else.

[Dr.3D]

Our troops will be fighting for our freedoms if and when they side against the DHS in a war it seems to have planned against the population of the United States.

[Christian Liberty]

https://apeshits.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/tumblr_m5jlmftbgl1qcpjxgo1_500.jpg?w=950

While a bit extreme, that is a good reducto ad absurdum that proves the idea wrong.

I'll have to share this one with my dad, he doesn't support the Iraq War either and I doubt he would have supported Hitler's troops...

One thing I think we should keep in mind is that the average troop does look at their job as defending freedoms. Regardless of whether or not that's what they are currently engaged in (I'll leave that up to the individual to decide for themselves) these are people who care enough about a country to sacrifice quite a bit for it. Perhaps they are misguided or were confused about the best way to protect our freedoms when they enlisted, but they show the desire to sacrifice for their country. These are people who should be easily swayed to the liberty movement. I did not become informed about this movement, Ron Paul, or libertarianism until the later part of my military enlistment. Once I was informed, I was able to get my entire shop to support Ron Paul extremely easily. Look at the military donations to candidates during the primary election... Ron Paul dominated.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think we should look at military members as a highly probable source of allies. These are people who should require the least convincing with some basic education on the subject.

With regard to the church in the OP, my recommendation would be to reevaluate your goals for your church attendance. Perhaps you disagree with these prayers, which is fine, but apparently most of your church seems to be on board. You could try discussing the liberty agenda with some individuals one on one to try and sway them to your side, but publicly speaking out against the prayer is probably just going to just anger people and have a negative effect on your message. Keep the 1st Amendment in mind... these people have a right to practice their religion as they see fit. At some point you will just have to decide whether or not it's an issue you can just brush off (I know we're not good at that) or if it's one that warrants you searching for a new church that aligns more with your opinions.

Although I didn't expliclty state it, I did kind of imply that I do not fully line up with the whole "Soldiers are murderers!" thing Laurence Vance brings up all the time. Occasionally I have to read him just to balance out the troop worship I hear everywhere else. But I don't copmpletely agree with him. I've got no problem with praying for the troops to come home safely (Preferably "And now" as well.) I admit that its a bit unfair that we don't pray for the other side as well, but omitting something isn't quite as serious as doing something WRONG. If we just prayed for the troops safety, that would be fine. I will not pray for their success, and I will certainly not pray that they will "Continue to defend our freedoms."

All that said, I don't hold them in particularly high esteem just because they had good intentions. As I said, I don't hate the troops or hold any particular ill will towards them. I think that those who know the truth ought to refuse to deploy, but I understand the consequences of that action are severe. I don't really blame someone for killing when a gun is to their head. I blame the guys putting the gun to their head (Meaning the President, Congress, maybe even generals, not the "enemy" troops who are really just defending THEIR freedoms from American aggression.) So while I can forgive the troops for what they do, I have no particular respect for them, or at least, I have no particular respect for them just BECAUSE they're a soldier.
If there is a US flag but it's at the back of the
sanctuary, then statism might make an occasional guest appearance, but the priorities are probably going to be limited to the tenets of the denomination in question. Mostly a good thing.

If the US flag is there and at the front of the sanctuary, then statism has a firm foothold there. Social gospel is probably the norm, the church probably borrows much (if not all) of its content from other church bodies, you most likely won't be able to get the clergy (if there is any) to take a doctrinal stand on anything, and basically what you're looking at is a god-themed social club.

My current church is a flag-in-the-back kind of place - they can't go full-bore antistatism because there are some pentagon gangsters in positions of authority there. However I'm pretty sure the head pastor reads stuff from Cato at least once in a while. Prayers tend to include calls for an end to violence, and a prayer for troops who are in harm's way - prayers for their safety, not for their success... though nothing is ever mentioned about the 4-year-old girls getting their faces melted off, either.



Yeah, our flag is in the back, and that's probably accurate. During the young kids ministry they pledge the flag, anytime I'm there to help I absolutely refuse to participate. I do have the same "dilemma" in school and I've decided that its not worth fighting about there (I tell myself that I'm pledging to the country's ideals and not the government, and I casually slide my hand off my heart during the "Indivisible" part, which is the main thing I actually object to) but I absolutely refuse to give anything to the state in the House of God. I feel that its a form of idolatry. Not that I claim to be free of idolatry, of course, but I will not idolize our oppressors for any reason whatsoever.

I mostly agree with my church's theology and stuff, I just have to put up with stuff like this. I can live with it but its annoying. Mostly, I just wanted to talk to people (You guys) that actually agree with me for a change. Reminds me that I'm not the only one dealing with this stuff.