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View Full Version : NPR's excellent story on govt. disability insurance: masking the real unemplyment rate




emazur
03-23-2013, 12:54 PM
I heard this on NPR this morning (full broadcast will be available tomorrow). I think they just out-Stosseled John Stossel
http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/
- The share of newly disabled workers diagnosed w/ "back pain or other muskuloskeltal problems" is up 4-fold since 1961.

- They interviewed a doctor who makes makes disability diagnoses based on the patients education level:


"We talk about the pain and what it’s like," he says. "I always ask them, 'What grade did you finish?'"

What grade did you finish, of course, is not really a medical question. But Dr. Timberlake believes he needs this information in disability cases because people who have only a high school education aren't going to be able to get a sit-down job.

Dr. Timberlake is making a judgment call that if you have a particular back problem and a college degree, you're not disabled. Without the degree, you are.

- Hopefully you'll be dead by time the system is bled dry:


But after I got interested in disability, I followed up with some of the guys to see what happened to them after the mill closed. One of them, Scott Birdsall, went to lots of meetings where he learned about retraining programs and educational opportunities. At one meeting, he says, a staff member pulled him aside.

"Scotty, I'm gonna be honest with you," the guy told him. "There's nobody gonna hire you … We're just hiding you guys." The staff member's advice to Scott was blunt: "Just suck all the benefits you can out of the system until everything is gone, and then you're on your own."

- disability masks the real unemployment rate:


"That's a kind of ugly secret of the American labor market," David Autor, an economist at MIT, told me. "Part of the reason our unemployment rates have been low, until recently, is that a lot of people who would have trouble finding jobs are on a different program."

- Once you check in you don't check out:


But disability has also become a de facto welfare program for people without a lot of education or job skills. But it wasn't supposed to serve this purpose; it's not a retraining program designed to get people back onto their feet. Once people go onto disability, they almost never go back to work. Fewer than 1 percent of those who were on the federal program for disabled workers at the beginning of 2011 have returned to the workforce since then, one economist told me.

- Disability's incentive problem:


People who leave the workforce and go on disability qualify for Medicare, the government health care program that also covers the elderly. They also get disability payments from the government of about $13,000 a year. This isn't great. But if your alternative is a minimum wage job that will pay you at most $15,000 a year, and probably does not include health insurance, disability may be a better option

- Kids: your key to a government check:


As I got further into this story, I started hearing about another group of people on disability: kids. People in Hale County told me that what you want is a kid who can "pull a check." Many people mentioned this, but I basically ignored it. It seemed like one of those things that maybe happened once or twice, got written up in the paper and became conversational fact among neighbors.

Then I looked at the numbers. I found that the number of kids on a program called Supplemental Security Income -- a program for children and adults who are both poor and disabled -- is almost seven times larger than it was 30 years ago.

- Clip the kids' wings:


Let's imagine that happens. Jahleel starts doing better in school, overcomes some of his disabilities. He doesn't need the disability program anymore. That would seem to be great for everyone, except for one thing: It would threaten his family's livelihood. Jahleel's family primarily survives off the monthly $700 check they get for his disability.

Jahleel's mom wants him to do well in school. That is absolutely clear. But her livelihood depends on Jahleel struggling in school. This tension only increases as kids get older. One mother told me her teenage son wanted to work, but she didn't want him to get a job because if he did, the family would lose its disability check.

...

Kids should be encouraged to go to school. Kids should want to do well in school. Parents should want their kids to do well in school. Kids should be confident their parents can provide for them regardless of how they do in school. Kids should become more and more independent as they grow older and hopefully be able to support themselves at around age 18.

The disability program stands in opposition to every one of these aims.

- Accounting tricks and cronyism:


A person on welfare costs a state money. That same resident on disability doesn't cost the state a cent, because the federal government covers the entire bill for people on disability. So states can save money by shifting people from welfare to disability. And the Public Consulting Group is glad to help.
PCG is a private company that states pay to comb their welfare rolls and move as many people as possible

...

There's a reason PCG goes to all this trouble. The company gets paid by the state every time it moves someone off of welfare and onto disability. In recent contract negotiations with Missouri, PCG asked for $2,300 per person. For Missouri, that's a deal -- every time someone goes on disability, it means Missouri no longer has to send them cash payments every month. For the nation as a whole, it means one more person added to the disability rolls. In the past few decades, an entire disability-industrial complex has emerged.

- The watchdogs are asleep:


"You might imagine a courtroom where on one side there's the claimant and on the other side there's a government attorney who is saying, 'We need to protect the public interest and your client is not sufficiently deserving,'" the economist David Autor says. "Actually, it doesn't work like that. There is no government lawyer on the other side of the room."

- Bankrupting the already bankrupt:


The two big disability programs, including health care for disabled workers, cost some $260 billion a year.

People at the Social Security Administration, which runs the federal disability programs, say we cannot afford this. The reserves in the disability insurance program are on track to run out in 2016, Steve Goss, the chief actuary at Social Security, told me.
Goss is confident that Congress will act to keep disability payments flowing, probably by taking money from the Social Security retirement fund.

JorgeStevenson
03-23-2013, 01:37 PM
Disgusting.

heavenlyboy34
03-23-2013, 02:11 PM
Goss is confident that Congress will act to keep disability payments flowing, probably by taking money from the Social Security retirement fund.
What "retirement fund"? You mean that big stack of IOUs? :P

sailingaway
03-23-2013, 03:05 PM
the real unemployment includes a lot more than that. There are people who wanted to work who raid their savings and get help from families etc and just dropped out because they passed their benefits. Ron tweeted a labor chart which shows the real picture:


Data extracted on: March 23, 2013 (5:04:09 PM)

Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey

Series Id: LNS12300000
Seasonally Adjusted
Series title: (Seas) Employment-Population Ratio
Labor force status: Employment-population ratio
Type of data: Percent or rate
Age: 16 years and over

http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/latest_numbers_LNS12300000_2003_2013_all_period_M0 2_data.gif

http://t.co/XwyMXIg2

Ron PaulVerified account
‏@RonPaul
The real story on employment or the lack thereof. R E P

https://twitter.com/RonPaul/status/297366676222128129

Lucille
03-25-2013, 04:38 PM
Reason (http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/25/the-human-costs-of-the-modern-disabilty) posted on this today, and a commenter linked to an "extended version" on This American Life.

490: Trends With Benefits
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/490/trends-with-benefits

tttppp
03-25-2013, 06:55 PM
I heard this on NPR this morning (full broadcast will be available tomorrow). I think they just out-Stosseled John Stossel
http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/
- The share of newly disabled workers diagnosed w/ "back pain or other muskuloskeltal problems" is up 4-fold since 1961.

- They interviewed a doctor who makes makes disability diagnoses based on the patients education level:



- Hopefully you'll be dead by time the system is bled dry:


- disability masks the real unemployment rate:



- Once you check in you don't check out:



- Disability's incentive problem:



- Kids: your key to a government check:



- Clip the kids' wings:


- Accounting tricks and cronyism:



- The watchdogs are asleep:



- Bankrupting the already bankrupt:

Our disability system is designed to keep you on it forever. I heard they even prevent you from owning a car on disability. How are you suppose to work without a car?

emazur
03-25-2013, 06:58 PM
Reason (http://reason.com/blog/2013/03/25/the-human-costs-of-the-modern-disabilty) posted on this today, and a commenter linked to an "extended version" on This American Life.

490: Trends With Benefits
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/490/trends-with-benefits

Yeah that was the full radio show - I highly recommend everyone listen to it. There was one statistic I found stunning - I'll have to listen to it again for the exact numbers, but they were talking about how while there was an avg. of something like 175,000 jobs being added per month, there were like 250,000 people applying for disability every month and they went out of their way to point out how they never talk about these kind of statistics on the news but it's extremely important to figure out the real rate of unemployment

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 06:59 PM
Our disability system is designed to keep you on it forever. I heard they even prevent you from owning a car on disability. How are you suppose to work without a car?
Public transport? Lots of working people have disabilities that prevent them from driving, yet they work. (i.e. the blind, paraplegics, etc)

sailingaway
03-25-2013, 07:03 PM
There are more not doing that either, who are just using savings or living with family. Ron tweeted a chart that tells the real story:


Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey

Series Id: LNS12300000
Seasonally Adjusted
Series title: (Seas) Employment-Population Ratio
Labor force status: Employment-population ratio
Type of data: Percent or rate
Age: 16 years and over

http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/latest_numbers_LNS12300000_2003_2013_all_period_M0 2_data.gif
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000

Once they run out of benefits unemployment doesn't count them, period.

tttppp
03-25-2013, 07:05 PM
Public transport? Lots of working people have disabilities that prevent them from driving, yet they work. (i.e. the blind, paraplegics, etc)


Not all of us live in NYC. If you live where I live, you cant even get to the store without a car. Our town doesnt even really have jobs. You have to commute a minimum of 30 minutes. My mother commutes an hour. There is not great public transportation for that.

thequietkid10
03-25-2013, 07:09 PM
I heard this on NPR this morning (full broadcast will be available tomorrow). I think they just out-Stosseled John Stossel
http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/
- The share of newly disabled workers diagnosed w/ "back pain or other muskuloskeltal problems" is up 4-fold since 1961.

- They interviewed a doctor who makes makes disability diagnoses based on the patients education level:



- Hopefully you'll be dead by time the system is bled dry:


- disability masks the real unemployment rate:



- Once you check in you don't check out:



- Disability's incentive problem:



- Kids: your key to a government check:



- Clip the kids' wings:


- Accounting tricks and cronyism:



- The watchdogs are asleep:



- Bankrupting the already bankrupt:

Without revealing too much, I know someone who easily won Social Security Disability because she was in her fifties and had a sixth grade education.

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 07:38 PM
Not all of us live in NYC. If you live where I live, you cant even get to the store without a car. Our town doesnt even really have jobs. You have to commute a minimum of 30 minutes. My mother commutes an hour. There is not great public transportation for that. Fascinating! Thank you for enlightening me. :) ~hugs~ I got the impression that cities all over the country got the public transport bug during the 90s-early 2000s boom like Phoenix did. :toady:

emazur
03-25-2013, 07:39 PM
Without revealing too much, I know someone who easily won Social Security Disability because she was in her fifties and had a sixth grade education.

Do you know if these people have access to claimer's educational records or do they just take their word for it? If the second, there's obviously a very strong incentive to lie.

fr33
03-25-2013, 07:42 PM
I listened to this podcast today and was going to post it now. :)

Considering that this american life is kinda leftist, it was interesting that even they seemed to realize this system is being abused to the max. I recommend listening to it.

Link to the podcast episode: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/490/trends-with-benefits in case you didn't see it in the OP's link.

Mani
03-25-2013, 07:48 PM
I remember doing cold calls a long time ago and some people signed up for earning extra income and we had to follow up on them.....I did 40-60 calls a day and every once in a while I'd ending talking to a guy who was collecting disability checks and he was insistent that he can't make too much money. He was terrified of making too much money.

I had thousands of conversations and can't recall most of them, but I could NEVER forget the few guys I talked to on disability. The conversation was so awkward it just threw me off. If I mentioned an opportunity to make too much money they actually got so emotional like I'm asking them to give me their child.

I just remember thinking......what the fuck is this? What's wrong with these people??

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 07:52 PM
I listened to this podcast today and was going to post it now. :)

Considering that this american life is kinda leftist, it was interesting that even they seemed to realize this system is being abused to the max. I recommend listening to it.

Link to the podcast episode: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/490/trends-with-benefits in case you didn't see it in the OP's link.
Unlike MSM, I'm often surprised by NPR. Despite the bad rap they get from "right wing" talk shows, they have a quite wide array of opinions.

lx43
03-25-2013, 08:01 PM
I remember doing cold calls a long time ago and some people signed up for earning extra income and we had to follow up on them.....I did 40-60 calls a day and every once in a while I'd ending talking to a guy who was collecting disability checks and he was insistent that he can't make too much money. He was terrified of making too much money.

I had thousands of conversations and can't recall most of them, but I could NEVER forget the few guys I talked to on disability. The conversation was so awkward it just threw me off. If I mentioned an opportunity to make too much money they actually got so emotional like I'm asking them to give me their child.

I just remember thinking......what the fuck is this? What's wrong with these people??

That is what dependency on the govt tit will do.

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 08:14 PM
Here's a bunch of graphs and such that accompany the podcast: http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/ Really startling data there. :eek:

fr33
03-25-2013, 08:15 PM
Unlike MSM, I'm often surprised by NPR. Despite the bad rap they get from "right wing" talk shows, they have a quite wide array of opinions.
Yes I agree. While I don't like the spin they'll put on political topics, I appreciate the artsy stuff they cover and some of the foreign correspondent work they do.

tttppp
03-25-2013, 08:17 PM
Fascinating! Thank you for enlightening me. :) ~hugs~ I got the impression that cities all over the country got the public transport bug during the 90s-early 2000s boom like Phoenix did. :toady:

I used to live in Phoenix, and the first thing I was told was to get a car because you can't get around without one.

emazur
03-25-2013, 10:14 PM
Unlike MSM, I'm often surprised by NPR. Despite the bad rap they get from "right wing" talk shows, they have a quite wide array of opinions.

Very much agreed. In fact, they did a piece a couple years ago about how the Social Security trust fund is a lie which I also posted about: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?268860-NPR-Social-Security-quot-Trust-Fund-quot-is-a-lie

Also, I highly recommend a previous episode of This American Life that talks about the invention of money (I think I also posted about this). If I recall, Ron Paul was in it for a bit, and they include this information:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money

Though the name of the Federal Reserve includes the word "federal," it's not actually part of the government. It's an independent institution tasked with something very simple, but very huge: Creating money out of thin air.

heavenlyboy34
03-25-2013, 10:25 PM
I used to live in Phoenix, and the first thing I was told was to get a car because you can't get around without one.
Yeah, pretty much. But the townsfolk voted for a big expansion of public transport several years ago (buses, dial-a-rides, etc), and supposedly it's easier to get around now. Hasn't been my experience, though.

tttppp
03-25-2013, 10:31 PM
Yeah, pretty much. But the townsfolk voted for a big expansion of public transport several years ago (buses, dial-a-rides, etc), and supposedly it's easier to get around now. Hasn't been my experience, though.

They are good about having taxis near bars, but thats about the extent of their public transportation.

BenIsForRon
03-26-2013, 08:41 AM
Damn, this is a big story, bookmarking for later.