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View Full Version : Do you support amnesty for tax protesters?




erowe1
03-23-2013, 10:29 AM
Poll question in the thread title.

cheapseats
03-23-2013, 10:33 AM
ALL non-violent lawbreakers should get amnesty if Illegal Immigrants do...INCLUDING those who "find themselves" afoul of the mighty and intimidating IRS.

Money-grubbing officials can invite EVERYONE to "step forward without penalty", so we can ALL enjoy being in the "good graces" of Authorities.

Contumacious
03-23-2013, 10:34 AM
Poll question in the thread title.

I believe you meant illegal tax resistors.

They should get full amnesty, the congressional medal of honor and 62 virgins..

mport1
03-23-2013, 11:09 AM
Tax resistors are heroes.

mrsat_98
03-23-2013, 11:15 AM
if you evade a tax your are liable for you need to pay the price. With that said the vast majority of working people have no tax liability.

erowe1
03-23-2013, 11:18 AM
if you evade a tax your are liable for you need to pay the price. With that said the vast majority of working people have no tax liability.

How do you determine someone's tax liability?

Neil Desmond
03-23-2013, 11:37 AM
Refusal to pay taxes and tax evasion are two different things, just like shooting someone in self defense and armed robbery are two different things. Tax evasion can only occur when a tax filing involves intentionally false/omitted information, because you're signing a document stating that such information is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, when it actually isn't. If they don't have these documents and evidence that contradicts your signed statement, then charges shouldn't even be filed, to begin with. People who commit tax evasion are subject to criminal prosecution, but refusal to pay taxes ought to at least be handled by an entirely different process from criminal "tax evasion" prosecution. Amnesty implies that the person was convicted of something; so it does not apply to refusal to pay taxes, based on the premise that such a thing is not a crime (not tax evasion, anyways).

EDIT: this poll (in the context of the title) is flawed, because it does not account for all possible responses. A tax protester is not the same as a tax evader.

kathy88
03-23-2013, 11:39 AM
Refusal to pay taxes and tax evasion are two different things, just like shooting someone in self defense and armed robbery are two different things. Tax evasion can only occur when a tax filing involves intentionally false/omitted information, because you're signing a document stating that such information is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, when it actually isn't. If they don't have these documents and evidence that contradicts your signed statement, then charges shouldn't even be filed, to begin with. People who commit tax evasion are subject to criminal prosecution, but refusal to pay taxes ought to at least be handled by an entirely different process from criminal "tax evasion" prosecution. Amnesty implies that the person was convicted of something; so it does not apply to refusal to pay taxes, based on the premise that such a thing is not a crime (not tax evasion, anyways).
Oh look, Mr. Literal came to pee in OPs Cheerios. LOL. Killjoy.

IDefendThePlatform
03-23-2013, 11:49 AM
Great poll. I voted yes.

erowe1
03-23-2013, 11:52 AM
Refusal to pay taxes and tax evasion are two different things, just like shooting someone in self defense and armed robbery are two different things. Tax evasion can only occur when a tax filing involves intentionally false/omitted information, because you're signing a document stating that such information is true and correct to the best of your knowledge, when it actually isn't. If they don't have these documents and evidence that contradicts your signed statement, then charges shouldn't even be filed, to begin with. People who commit tax evasion are subject to criminal prosecution, but refusal to pay taxes ought to at least be handled by an entirely different process from criminal "tax evasion" prosecution. Amnesty implies that the person was convicted of something; so it does not apply to refusal to pay taxes, based on the premise that such a thing is not a crime (not tax evasion, anyways).

EDIT: this poll (in the context of the title) is flawed, because it does not account for all possible responses. A tax protester is not the same as a tax evader.

Interesting.

I wasn't aware of that distinction.

So if I don't file, and then I get audited and neither give them the information they want nor claim to have done so, then when I get prosecuted, it won't be for tax evasion?

Neil Desmond
03-23-2013, 11:52 AM
Oh look, Mr. Literal came to pee in OPs Cheerios. LOL. Killjoy.
Are you saying it's satire? Then maybe it isn't in the right section of the forum, or wrong forum website altogether.

kathy88
03-23-2013, 11:55 AM
Are you saying it's satire? Then maybe it isn't in the right section of the forum, or wrong forum website altogether.
Not at all. I'm saying you're a drag.

Neil Desmond
03-23-2013, 11:59 AM
Interesting.

I wasn't aware of that distinction.

So if I don't file, and then I get audited and neither give them the information they want nor claim to have done so, then when I get prosecuted, it won't be for tax evasion?
Well, I'm not saying what will or won't happen, but rather my position on what should not happen. From what I have heard, people have been dragged into court for not paying taxes and won (they didn't have to pay taxes). Not sure of the details, it may even have been jury nullification for a tax evasion charge where the person did submit a false tax filing (I don't know, just guessing). But yes, I believe there is a distinction and there are others who make the same argument.

Neil Desmond
03-23-2013, 12:00 PM
Not at all. I'm saying you're a drag.
Oh well, too bad; life isn't fair.

erowe1
03-23-2013, 12:08 PM
From what I have heard, people have been dragged into court for not paying taxes and won (they didn't have to pay taxes).

I've heard that too. But people have also been dragged into court for not paying taxes and lost.

Neil Desmond
03-23-2013, 12:37 PM
I've heard that too. But people have also been dragged into court for not paying taxes and lost.
And I have no doubt that they far outnumber the people who did win to the point that the ratio is insignificant.

Henry Rogue
03-23-2013, 03:31 PM
Stealing is still stealing whether the victim hides his/her property in a closet or leaves it on the lawn for all to see.

Anti Federalist
03-23-2013, 03:36 PM
Free Ed and Elaine Brown!

That is all.

erowe1
03-23-2013, 05:16 PM
The results are encouraging so far.

Christian Liberty
03-23-2013, 05:43 PM
At the absolute minimum, for a tax to be justified it needs to go towards something that is authorized in the constitution.

I prefere to say that taxes only to pay for police, courts, and defense are justified, which is even less than the constitution authorizes. But I'm willing to start with "In the constitution."

Since our taxes pay for all kinds of unconstitutional crap, government is the thief for doing it. So I would absolutely vote "Not guilty" if I were on a jury for someone being charged with tax evasion.

Neil Desmond
03-23-2013, 06:54 PM
Stealing is still stealing whether the victim hides his/her property in a closet or leaves it on the lawn for all to see.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise (at least I'm not). All I'm saying is that if you sign a document stating that you agree to pay taxes, that your income is X, but you're providing false information about what the amount X is, then that does not apply.

lx43
03-23-2013, 10:16 PM
At the absolute minimum, for a tax to be justified it needs to go towards something that is authorized in the constitution.

I prefere to say that taxes only to pay for police, courts, and defense are justified, which is even less than the constitution authorizes. But I'm willing to start with "In the constitution."

Since our taxes pay for all kinds of unconstitutional crap, government is the thief for doing it. So I would absolutely vote "Not guilty" if I were on a jury for someone being charged with tax evasion.

If Rand is elected President I hope his first act is to pardon any tax protestors and give everyone who wanted out of the system a chance to go. That is what I would do if elected President. I'd at the very least use that as a means to gain support among the public for those that wanted out of paying taxes and scare the establishment and Congress into giving me significant cuts in spending/regulation.

fr33
03-23-2013, 11:07 PM
Good people break bad laws. No victim, no crime.

opal
03-24-2013, 12:34 AM
YEARS ago, I had a friend that got served time at a federal prison.. convicted felon. When he got out he opened a mechanic shop and just refused to file taxes. There is no taxation without representation - he was stripped of voting rights and between his accountant and attorney never got to the courtroom over it.

Carson
03-24-2013, 03:49 AM
http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/thebegining/Amnesty%20for%20embezzlers.jpg

erowe1
03-24-2013, 03:28 PM
Bump.

With all the anti-amnesty talk in other threads I just have trouble believing these results so far.

mport1
03-25-2013, 11:26 AM
http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/thebegining/Amnesty%20for%20embezzlers.jpg

How about amnesty for both?

IDefendThePlatform
03-31-2013, 07:30 AM
Very encouraged by the results here, albeit with a small sample size.

BuddyRey
03-31-2013, 05:27 PM
Taxation is theft, theft is immoral, and those who fight against immorality deserve praise, not penalization.

fr33
03-31-2013, 08:51 PM
I'm pretty sure this poll has established what the OP set out to.

And that is; we have many hypocrites amongst us.

Breaking unconstitutional immigration laws = Not OK

Breaking constitutional tax laws = OK

ChristianAnarchist
03-31-2013, 09:01 PM
Free Ed and Elaine Brown!

That is all.

AMEN

ChristianAnarchist
03-31-2013, 09:11 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise (at least I'm not). All I'm saying is that if you sign a document stating that you agree to pay taxes, that your income is X, but you're providing false information about what the amount X is, then that does not apply.

Even when you are doing so to avoid having all your living taken from you through confiscation after "conviction" and imprisonment as you've seen done to other friends or acquaintences (Irwin Schiff, Ed and Elaine and countless others)?

Even when you know that if you don't "file" they will take away your license to "practice medicine" or "law" or "fill-in-the-blank"?

Even though the uncounted pages of laws and regulations written in lawyer-speak cannot possibly be decoded even by those who have written them?

Yeah, after over 20 years of NOT paying the income tax, we were forced into doing so in 2004 in order to keep what we had and in order to have our business. We COULD have taken the "right" position that we are entitled to our fruits and that those who would steal it from us are wrong, but then we would be likely taken into custody and possibly killed (oops, he slipped!!).

I "sign" that stinking lying piece of paper because if I don't bad things will happen to me. If I could find 5% of the "people" would stand up with me and NOT pay, we all could watch them collapse in a powerless heap...

TheTexan
03-31-2013, 09:53 PM
Theft is illegal, evading theft is not..

polomertz
03-31-2013, 11:38 PM
I chose the never file path. I also chose not to have a bank account, a cellphone or even a mailing address. They can find me but they'd have to work for it and won't get much in return. I try to live free. I've found life is simpler that way and I'm much happier for it. I wouldn't want a "pardon" because wouldn't that imply I was doing something wrong in the first place? I would prefer nullification of sorts and an apology. That being said, I wouldn't waste effort opposing such a thing.

asurfaholic
04-01-2013, 06:26 AM
Tax protesters who have the balls to stand up and stop paying royalties to the king are Heroes in my book.

erowe1
04-01-2013, 08:17 AM
I chose the never file path. I also chose not to have a bank account, a cellphone or even a mailing address. They can find me but they'd have to work for it and won't get much in return. I try to live free. I've found life is simpler that way and I'm much happier for it. I wouldn't want a "pardon" because wouldn't that imply I was doing something wrong in the first place? I would prefer nullification of sorts and an apology. That being said, I wouldn't waste effort opposing such a thing.

Interesting. I wouldn't want you to publicize stuff about yourself online, but do you have any advice about how to do that or recommended books about it or anything? And can it work with a family?

polomertz
04-01-2013, 11:40 AM
Interesting. I wouldn't want you to publicize stuff about yourself online, but do you have any advice about how to do that or recommended books about it or anything? And can it work with a family?

I haven't read any books about it - mostly info from here. It's just a mindset I try to follow. As to a family, this may send me to jail so I've pretty much given up hope of finding a woman willing to take that same risk.