New York man freed 23 years after wrongful murder conviction

[donnay]

New York man freed 23 years after wrongful murder conviction

Joseph Ax
Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/21/us-usa-crime-exonerated-idUSBRE92K1C320130321)
Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:08 CDT


http://www.sott.net/image/image/s6/135663/large/wrongful_tmagArticle.jpg

© Michael Appleton for The New York Times
David Ranta after being released from prison on Thursday.

A New York man convicted of killing a Hasidic rabbi more than two decades ago was freed on Thursday after his conviction was vacated as a miscarriage of justice.

David Ranta, 58, spent 23 years in prison until the conviction integrity unit of the Brooklyn district attorney's office concluded after a year-long investigation that the case against him was fatally flawed.

"Sir, you are free to go," acting state Supreme Court Justice Miriam Cyrulnik told Ranta at a Brooklyn courthouse as relatives, including his daughter who was an infant when he was jailed, erupted in tears and shouts of joy.

Prosecutors had joined Ranta's defense attorney, Pierre Sussman, in asking Cyrulnik to vacate Ranta's conviction "in the interest of justice."

"The evidence no longer establishes the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," said Assistant District Attorney John O'Mara, the chief of the conviction integrity unit.

Ranta was found guilty of killing Rabbi Chaskel Werzberger on February 8, 1990, and stealing his car in an effort to flee following an unsuccessful attempt to rob a diamond courier. The crime rattled the Hasidic Jewish community in Brooklyn and prompted calls for swift justice.

"As I said from the beginning, I had nothing to do with this case," Ranta told reporters following the hearing.

The case is the latest in a string of wrongful convictions that have gained media attention in recent months, creating a headache for Brooklyn District Attorney Charles Hynes, who faces a rare primary challenge in September as he seeks a seventh four-year term.

On Wednesday, a federal judge blocked Hynes's office from retrying a man, William Lopez, whose 1989 murder conviction was overturned earlier this year after questions arose about witness accounts.

In 2010, a federal judge freed another man, Jabbar Collins, after he spent 16 years in prison for allegedly shooting his landlord. U.S. District Judge Dora Irizarry concluded that Brooklyn prosecutors had relied on false testimony and threatened a witness and faulted Hynes's office for continuing to deny any wrongdoing.

In an interview on Thursday, Hynes defended his office's record and said he created the conviction integrity unit in 2011 to investigate legitimate claims of innocence.

"It's a very, very difficult thing to know that someone is in jail who should not be in jail," he said.

FAULTY LINEUP

Ranta is the third defendant freed as a result of the conviction integrity unit, which currently is examining 14 other cases, mostly homicides.

It began looking into the Ranta case after Hynes spoke about the unit to a gathering of defense lawyers, including Michael Baum, the lawyer who represented Ranta at trial. Baum asked the office to examine Ranta's case.

Investigators soon found that a key witness, a teenager named Menachem Lieberman who picked Ranta out of a lineup, had since recanted. He said he did not recognize Ranta but selected him after a detective told him to "pick the guy with the big nose."

A jail house snitch and his girlfriend, both of whom fingered Ranta as the shooter, also admitted to prosecutors that they made up their story to secure a favorable plea deal.

Ranta had long argued that the case against him was troubled, but he failed in two appeals, with prosecutors opposed to his motion in both instances.

Chaim Weinberger, the courier who was the target of the failed robbery, had testified at Ranta's trial that Ranta was not the man who tried to steal his gemstones. In 1995, at a hearing to consider one of Ranta's appeals, Theresa Astin testified that her husband, Joseph Astin, had committed the murder.

Astin died in April 1990, two months after the crime occurred. Nevertheless, the evidence against Ranta was deemed sufficient until prosecutors reopened the case last year.

"As soon as we reached that conclusion, there was no point in keeping David Ranta in jail another day," Hynes said.

At Ranta's brief court appearance on Thursday, Cyrulnik apologized to Ranta for his years in prison.

"Mr. Ranta, to say that I'm sorry for what you have endured would be an understatement and grossly inadequate, but I say it to you anyway," the judge said.

As he left the courthouse, Ranta carried a purple mesh bag with the belongings he had gathered from his prison cell only hours earlier. Asked whether there was anything he wanted to do now that he was free, he smiled and said, "Yeah. Get the hell out of here, maybe."

[phill4paul]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?

[Cowlesy]

Investigators soon found that a key witness, a teenager named Menachem Lieberman who picked Ranta out of a lineup, had since recanted. He said he did not recognize Ranta but selected him after a detective told him to "pick the guy with the big nose."

A jail house snitch and his girlfriend, both of whom fingered Ranta as the shooter, also admitted to prosecutors that they made up their story to secure a favorable plea deal.

Can we throw these people in the pokey for ruining this guy's life?

[Anti Federalist]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?

Overwhelming evidence was presented at the time.

But, oopsie, that "evidence" turned out to be nothing more than a load of circle jerk spunk, shot by a bunch of corrupt cops and prosecutors.

I'm shocked, shocked and outraged...:rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

Can we throw these people in the pokey for ruining this guy's life?

http://www.theinterpretersfriend.org/misc/humr/laugh.gif

You funny.

The ruling class doesn't go to jail.

Unless they stepped on somebody's dick higher up the food chain.

[2young2vote]

So this was based entirely off of some eye witness who was actually being influenced by the police to pick a certain person. Did they have ANY actual evidence proving it was him?

If they did not, then this quote "The evidence no longer establishes the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt," is really truly sad, because they never had any evidence to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in the first place.

[torchbearer]

drone him!

[Working Poor]

How horrible..

[Christian Liberty]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?

And yet... this guy still got screwed. This is less a condemnation of the death penalty and more a criticism of the degree to which we trust the police when it comes to trials.

[phill4paul]

And yet... this guy still got screwed. This is less a condemnation of the death penalty and more a criticism of the degree to which we trust the police when it comes to trials.

Sure, he got screwed. But, at least he did live to see the light of day. I'm not certain, but I believe if one were to ask him he would say that he is happy to be a living free man this day.

[Christian Liberty]

Sure, he got screwed. But, at least he did live to see the light of day. I'm not certain, but I believe if one were to ask him he would say that he is happy to be a living free man this day.

Honestly, I almost want to be snarky and say that this proves the need for the death penalty... for the detective...

I get your point though. I stand by the fact that in a free society, the death penalty is the justified punishment for murder, for the reasons Walter Block discusses here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block34.html I don't know the details, but considering that, if I understand correctly, DP cases require higher burdens of proof than normal cases, I would suspect cases like the OP describes would be more common than cases where the DP is applied wrongly. Do I trust our court system? No, I really don't.

Then again, everything I thought I knew even at the beginning of this year is being challenged. I've officially "Gone crazy" so to speak. Every day the world seems more and more dystopian.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... Yes, if the government finds someone and proves beyond any conceivably reasonable doubt that they have committed murder, they should get the death penalty. And this applies even more to government agents than it does to anyone else. There are lots of people in the government who's executions would be just. That said, I agree that I don't really trust that just because they say its beyond whatever threshold of proof doesn't mean that it actually is.

[phill4paul]

I guess what I'm trying to say is... Yes, if the government finds someone and proves beyond any conceivably reasonable doubt that they have committed murder, they should get the death penalty. And this applies even more to government agents than it does to anyone else. There are lots of people in the government who's executions would be just. That said, I agree that I don't really trust that just because they say its beyond whatever threshold of proof doesn't mean that it actually is.

Ah yes. The great conundrum. Which is why I don't believe in the death penalty. And if it is a matter of cost then, honestly, the cost would be minimal if released the prisoners that are held under mandatory sentencing guidelines that are non-violent in nature.

[Christian Liberty]

Honestly, I don't mind that much if we decide to get rid of the death penalty for pragmatic reasons (Such as "Innocent people might get killed" or "Its too expensive because of our idiot appeals system that could almost certainly be done cheaper AND more accurately) but theoretically, philosophically, I insist that its justified. If you show me someone that is near-certainly guilty of murder, such as Ted Bundy or Anders Brevik, I'm going to advocate for his death.

[jbauer]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?

I'll bite. What about cases like the guy that shot Gabby Gifords. Its pretty obvious it was him there were hundreds of witnesses. IF it is known for sure who did it then I'm infavor of an eye for an eye.

[phill4paul]

I'll bite. What about cases like the guy that shot Gabby Gifords. Its pretty obvious it was him there were hundreds of witnesses. IF it is known for sure who did it then I'm infavor of an eye for an eye.

Meh, the number of these kind of cases are so small in relation to the overall picture that I feel no need for 'eye for eye' justice. A lifetime behind bars is justice enough to me.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates


This list contains names of people who were found guilty of capital crimes and placed on death row who were later found to be wrongly convicted. Some people were exonerated posthumously.

Doubt it matters to the posthumous bastards......


1930-1939
1937
1.Willie Roberson, Olen Montgomery, Eugene Williams, and Roy Wright Alabama. Convicted 1931.
[edit]1970-1979
1973
1. David Keaton Florida (Keaton v. State, 273 So.2d 385 (1973)). Convicted 1971.
1974
2. Samuel A. Poole North Carolina (State v. Poole, 203 S.E.2d 786 (N.C. 1974)). Convicted 1973.
1975
3. Wilbert Lee Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1963.
4. Freddie Pitts Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1965.
5. James Creamer Georgia (Emmett v. Ricketts, 397 F. Supp 1025 (N.D. Ga. 1975)). Convicted 1973.
6. Christopher Spicer North Carolina (State v. Spicer, 204 SE 2d 641 (1974)). Convicted 1973.
1976
7. Clarence Norris Alabama. Convicted 1931.
8. Thomas Gladish New Mexico. Convicted 1974.
9. Richard Greer New Mexico. Convicted 1974.
10. Ronald Keine New Mexico. Convicted 1974.
11. Clarence Smith New Mexico. Convicted 1974.
1977
11. Delbert Tibbs Florida. Convicted 1974.
1978
12. Earl Charles Georgia. Convicted 1975.
13. Jonathan Treadway Arizona. Convicted 1975.
1979
14. Gary Beeman Ohio. Convicted 1976.
[edit]1980-1989
1980
15. Jerry Banks.
16. Larry Hicks.
1981
17. Charles Ray Giddens.
18. Michael Linder.
19. Johnny Ross.
20. Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham.
1982
21. Annibal Jaramillo.
22. Lawyer Johnson Massachusetts (Commonwealth v. Johnson, 429 N.E.2d 726 (1982)). Convicted 1971.
1985
23. Larry Fisher.
1986
24. Anthony Brown.
25. Neil Ferber.
26. Clifford Henry Bowen.
1987
27. Joseph Green Brown.
28. Perry Cobb.
29. Darby (Williams) Tillis.
30. Vernon McManus.
31. Anthony Ray Peek.
32. Juan Ramos.
33. Robert Wallace.
1988
34. Richard Neal Jones.
35. Willie Brown.
36. Larry Troy.
1989
37. Randall Dale Adams Texas (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281) (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1977.[2][3]
38. Robert Cox.
39. James Richardson.
On April 8, 2010, former death row inmate Timothy B. Hennis, once exonerated in 1989, was reconvicted of a triple murder, thereby dropping him from the list of those exonerated. [1] Sentenced to death by military court-martial 15 April 2010
[edit]1990-1999
1990
40. Clarence Brandley Texas (Ex Parte Brandley, 781 S.W.2d 886 (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1981.
41. John C. Skelton.
42. Dale Johnston.
43. Jimmy Lee Mathers.
1991
44. Gary Nelson.
45. Bradley P. Scott.
46. Charles Smith.
1992
47. Jay C. Smith Pennsylvania. Convicted 1986.
1993
48. Kirk Bloodsworth Maryland. Convicted 1984. Exonerated 1993; first prisoner to be exonerated by DNA evidence. Serving life in prison when exonerated, as earlier death sentence was overturned.
49. Federico M. Macias.
50. Walter McMillan.
51. Gregory R. Wilhoit Oklahoma. Convicted 1987. Along with Ron Williamson, Wilhoit later became the subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town.[4]
52. James Robison.
53. Muneer Deeb.
1994
54. Andrew Golden.
1995
55. Adolph Munson.
56. Robert Charles Cruz.
57. Rolando Cruz.
58. Alejandro Hernández.
59. Sabrina Butler.
1996
60. Joseph Burrows. Joseph Burrows was released from death row after his attorney Kathleen Zellner persuaded the real killer to confess at the post-conviction hearing, and Peter Rooney, a reporter for the Champaign-Urbana News-Gazette, obtained a recantation from a key witness. [2]. The Burrows case was the subject of a book by Rooney titled "Die Free: A True Story of Murder, Betrayal and Miscarried Justice" [3]
61. Verneal Jimerson.
62. Dennis Williams.
63. Roberto Miranda.
64. Gary Gauger
65. Troy Lee Jones.
66. Carl Lawson.
67. David Wayne Grannis.
1997
68. Ricardo Aldape Guerra.
69. Benjamin Harris.
70. Robert Hayes.
71. Christopher McCrimmon.
72. Randall Padgett.
It is later revealed, through additional research by Prof. Samuel Gross of the University of Michigan, that though James Bo Cochran was acquitted of murder, he did plead guilty to a robbery charge in an agreement made with prosecutors prior to his release. Therefore, Cochran is no longer on the list of those exonerated from death row. [4]
1998
73. Robert Lee Miller, Jr.
74. Curtis Kyles.
1999
75. Shareef Cousin Louisiana (Louisiana v. Cousin, 710 So. 2d 1065 (1998)). Convicted 1996.
76. Anthony Porter Illinois. Convicted 1983.
77. Steven Smith.
78. Ronald Williamson Oklahoma. Convicted 1988. Along with Gregory R. Wilhoit, Williamson later became the inspiration for and subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town.[4]
79. Ronald Jones.
80. Clarence Dexter, Jr.
81. Warren Douglas Manning.
82. Alfred Rivera.
[edit]2000-2009
2000
83. Steve Manning.
84. Eric Clemmons.
85. Joseph Nahume Green.
86. Earl Washington Virginia (pardoned). Convicted 1994 (1984, without life sentence).
87. William Nieves.
88. Frank Lee Smith (died prior to exoneration).
89. Michael Graham.
90. Albert Burrell.
91. Oscar Lee Morris.
2001
92. Peter Limone.
93. Gary Drinkard.
94. Joachin José Martínez.
95. Jeremy Sheets.
96. Charles Fain.
2002
97. Juan Roberto Melendez-Colon Florida. Convicted 1984.
98. Ray Krone Arizona (State v. Krone, 897 P.2d 621 (Ariz. 1995) (en banc)). Convicted 1992.
99. Thomas Kimbell, Jr.
100. Larry Osborne.
2003
101. Aaron Patterson.
102. Madison Hobley.
103. Leroy Orange.
104. Stanley Howard.
105. Rudolph Holton.
106. Lemuel Prion.
107. Wesley Quick.
108. John Thompson.
109. Timothy Howard Ohio. Convicted 1976.
110. Gary Lamar James Ohio. Convicted 1976.
111. Joseph Amrine.
112. Nicholas Yarris Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania v. Yarris, No 690-OF1982, Court of Common Pleas, Delaware County, September 3, 2003. Order vacating conviction). Convicted 1982.
2004
113. Alan Gell.
114. Gordon Steidl.
115. Laurence Adams.
116. Dan L. Bright.
117. Ryan Matthews.
118. Ernest Ray Willis.
2005
119. Derrick Jamison.
120. Harold Wilson.
2006
121. John Ballard.
2007
122. Curtis McCarty.
123. Michael McCormick.
124. Jonathon Hoffman.
2008
125. Kennedy Brewer Mississippi. Convicted 1995.
126. Glen Edward Chapman North Carolina. Convicted 1995.
127. Levon "Bo" Jones[5] North Carolina. Convicted 1993.
128. Michael Blair Texas.
2009
129. Nathson Fields Illinois. Convicted 1986.
130. Paul House Tennessee. Convicted 1986.
131. Daniel Wade Moore Alabama. Convicted 2002.
132. Ronald Kitchen Illinois. Convicted 1988.
133. Herman Lindsey Florida. Convicted 2006.
134. Michael Toney Texas. Convicted 1999. (Toney later died in a car accident on October 3, 2009, just one month and a day after his exoneration.).[6]
135. Yancy Douglas Oklahoma. Convicted 1997.
136. Paris Powell Oklahoma. Convicted 1997.
137. Robert Springsteen Texas. Convicted 2001.
[edit]2010-2012
2010
138. Joe D'Ambrosio Ohio. Convicted 1989. (While he was freed in 2010, but not yet exonerated, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal by the state of Ohio challenging the unconditional writ of habeas corpus and bar to D'Ambrosio's re-prosecution on January 23, 2012, nearly 2 years later, making D'Ambrosio the 140th death row exoneree since 1973. [5])
139. Anthony Graves Texas. Convicted 1994.
2011
140. Gussie Vann Tennessee. Convicted 1994.
2012
141. Damon Thibodeaux Louisiana. Convicted 1997.
142. Seth Penalver Florida. Convicted 1994.

[qh4dotcom]

Is he supposed to get compensated for the 23 years he wrongfully spent in jail?

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?

Yeah, the 23 years in jail was so great.

[phill4paul]

Yeah, the 23 years in jail was so great.

Ummm...OK? Wut?:confused:

[jmdrake]

Can we throw these people in the pokey for ruining this guy's life?

If I were him I'd rather have a malicious prosecution settlement based on $25K per year for each of the 23 years.

[jmdrake]

Is he supposed to get compensated for the 23 years he wrongfully spent in jail?

It's not automatic. But based on the facts he does have a malicious prosecution claim.

[QuickZ06]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?

No one deserves to die in a Just-Us system. Plenty of killers get off scot-free, they just got this thing called a badge.

[tod evans]

Can we throw these people in the pokey for ruining this guy's life?

^^^^^^This! ^^^^^^^^^^

Prosecutors are the scum of the earth!

[puppetmaster]

I'll bite. What about cases like the guy that shot Gabby Gifords. Its pretty obvious it was him there were hundreds of witnesses. IF it is known for sure who did it then I'm infavor of an eye for an eye.


I will NEVER trust the government to do the right thing and therefore I cannot support a government imposed death penalty.

If anyone crossed that line with anyone in my family they better hope they get the death penalty from the judge......it would be a more peaceful end for them.
blood is thicker than water in my neck of the woods.

[Anti Federalist]

Meh, the number of these kind of cases are so small in relation to the overall picture that I feel no need for 'eye for eye' justice. A lifetime behind bars is justice enough to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

Doubt it matters to the posthumous bastards......

That's a hell of a list.

Bet everyone of those were convicted by "overwhelming evidence".

This fucking government doesn't have the moral authority to pop a zit AFAIC.

I'm sure as hell not going to condone it executing people.

Especially with such a lousy track record.

I'd rather 100 guilty go free than, well, you know the rest.

Somebody rep brother phill for me, would ya please?

[cheapseats]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?


...Ranta was found guilty of killing Rabbi Chaskel Werzberger on February 8, 1990, and stealing his car in an effort to flee following an unsuccessful attempt to rob a diamond courier. The crime rattled the Hasidic Jewish community in Brooklyn and prompted calls for swift justice...

Was he on death row? No.

In the realm of criminality, this is scarcely HEINOUS.



...Investigators soon found that a key witness, a teenager named Menachem Lieberman who picked Ranta out of a lineup, had since recanted. He said he did not recognize Ranta but selected him after a detective told him to "pick the guy with the big nose."

A jail house snitch and his girlfriend, both of whom fingered Ranta as the shooter, also admitted to prosecutors that they made up their story to secure a favorable plea deal...

THAT is heinous.

"A detective" has a name. If he is still alive and if I were the judge, I would sentence him to 23 years in prison.

[Christian Liberty]

That is out of how many executions?

100% accuracy isn't possible, although I seriously doubt they are close enough to a level I would be comfortable with. We are capable of better.

I +1 repped the post Anti-Federalist addressed.

[tod evans]

Somebody rep brother phill for me, would ya please?

Covered.

[phill4paul]

Was he on death row? No.


Did I say he was on death row? No.

I was just pointing out how often the Just-Us fails and it is more heinous when it results in a death penalty.

[cheapseats]

Any pro-death penalty advocates care to reply? Shouldn't he have just been executed and saved tax payers a ton of money?

Was he on death row?



...Ranta was found guilty of killing Rabbi Chaskel Werzberger on February 8, 1990, and stealing his car in an effort to flee following an unsuccessful attempt to rob a diamond courier. The crime rattled the Hasidic Jewish community in Brooklyn and prompted calls for swift justice...

In the world of violent crime, this scarcely qualifies as HEINOUS.

The victim's being a rabbi does not make it more tragic or criminal than if it had been a teacher or a teenager or a truck driver.



...Investigators soon found that a key witness, a teenager named Menachem Lieberman who picked Ranta out of a lineup, had since recanted. He said he did not recognize Ranta but selected him after a detective told him to "pick the guy with the big nose."

A jail house snitch and his girlfriend, both of whom fingered Ranta as the shooter, also admitted to prosecutors that they made up their story to secure a favorable plea deal...

THAT is heinous.

"A detective" has a name. So does whoever offered the plea deal.

If they are alive and if I were the judge, I would sentence them to 23 years in prison. Only David Ranta could petition for lighter sentence.


[Apology for the duplicate. The post I was working on seemed to, poof, DISAPPEAR...I didn't realize it posted. When things DISAPPEAR from my screen, they're usually GONE.]

[cheapseats]

...

[heavenlyboy34]

http://www.theinterpretersfriend.org/misc/humr/laugh.gif

You funny.

The ruling class doesn't go to jail.

Unless they stepped on somebody's dick higher up the food chain.
Even then, they get Special Jails where they don't have to worry about being raped and get decent food and the whole 9. What a justice system. :rolleyes:

[cheapseats]

... Special Jails ...

Rand is on a bill-writing roll, no?

Closing COUNTRY CLUB JAILS surely falls under SPENDING CUTS ... also JUSTICE.

Help dispel the distinct impression that Republicans are the party that serves Big Money.

[thoughtomator]

I'll bite. What about cases like the guy that shot Gabby Gifords. Its pretty obvious it was him there were hundreds of witnesses. IF it is known for sure who did it then I'm infavor of an eye for an eye.

Given that it is known that it is possible to program an assassin via brainwashing, you may be destroying the evidence to convict a greater criminal.

[Anti Federalist]

Given that it is known that it is possible to program an assassin via brainwashing, you may be destroying the evidence to convict a greater criminal.

McVeigh...ever wonder why his execution was "fast tracked"?

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/36514760.jpg

[kcchiefs6465]

Given that it is known that it is possible to program an assassin via brainwashing, you may be destroying the evidence to convict a greater criminal.
Is it?

[tod evans]

McVeigh...ever wonder why his execution was "fast tracked"?



Nope....Never did wonder for a moment...

Way too much fishy stuff there!

[phill4paul]

Is it?

Inculcated from birth to feel that your cause was so great that you would be willing to commit murder? I know THAT kind of brainwashing already exists. I watch it on the news in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
To have a certain predisposition and belief system so that one is easily manipulated to commit murder. I know THAT kind of brainwashing exists. The FBI proves this constantly in a chase of federal dollars.

So yes, some forms of brainwashing are true.

[kcchiefs6465]

Inculcated from birth to feel that your cause was so great that you would be willing to commit murder? I know THAT kind of brainwashing already exists. I watch it on the news in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

To have a certain predisposition and belief system so that one is easily manipulated to commit murder. I know THAT kind of brainwashing exists. The FBI proves this constantly in a chase of federal dollars.

So yes, some forms of brainwashing are true.
Very true. I was more referring to MKULTRA and the like. I do not believe they are capable of brainwashing someone in the sense of turning them into a 'manchurian candidate.' [a code word, or what have you, makes them complete their assigned mission]

Some cases are pretty damn peculiar. [Sirhan Sirhan, for example] What it all comes down to for me is that I believe that if they were capable of brainwashing to the point of creating patsys that a lot more politicians, political dissidents, etc. would have been assassinated. I just haven't seen enough evidence to believe that to be the case.

[phill4paul]

Very true. I was more referring to MKULTRA and the like. I do not believe they are capable of brainwashing someone in the sense of turning them into a 'manchurian candidate.' [a code word, or what have you, makes them complete their assigned mission]

Some cases are pretty damn peculiar. [Sirhan Sirhan, for example] What it all comes down to for me is that I believe that if they were capable of brainwashing to the point of creating patsys that a lot more politicians, political dissidents, etc. would have been assassinated. I just haven't seen enough evidence to believe that to be the case.

The followers of Manson were willing to commit murder and brainwashing techniques were used buy him.

I would imagine that the reason why it is not used by black ops so frequently is that there is an investment and with investment their is risk of exposure.

[phill4paul]

UPDATE....Holy hell! This guy can't catch a break!

NYC man jailed 23 years in rabbi’s murder suffers heart attack a day after conviction tossed

NEW YORK — A New York City man whose murder conviction was overturned after 23 years in prison has suffered a heart attack on his second day of freedom.

David Ranta’s lawyer tells The New York Times (http://nyti.ms/102uUVo ) the former inmate had a serious heart attack Friday night and is being treated at a New York hospital.


Ranta walked out of jail Thursday after a judge threw out his conviction in the 1990 killing of a Brooklyn rabbi.

Brooklyn prosecutors had recently concluded Ranta’s prosecution in the death of Rabbi Chaskel Werzberger was fatally flawed.

Werzberger was killed by a bandit fleeing a botched robbery. One witness said a police lineup that helped convict Ranta had been rigged.

Ranta is 58. He told reporters Thursday that his new freedom was emotionally overwhelming.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/nyc-man-jailed-23-years-in-rabbis-murder-suffers-heart-attack-a-day-after-conviction-tossed/2013/03/23/10a4adf6-93e3-11e2-8e33-9cc6c739d012_story.html

[Ranger29860]

Honestly, I don't mind that much if we decide to get rid of the death penalty for pragmatic reasons (Such as "Innocent people might get killed" or "Its too expensive because of our idiot appeals system that could almost certainly be done cheaper AND more accurately) but theoretically, philosophically, I insist that its justified. If you show me someone that is near-certainly guilty of murder, such as Ted Bundy or Anders Brevik, I'm going to advocate for his death.

And I would counter that the State does not have the moral justification to execute a citizen. No matter what that citizen did. The only person that would have the moral authority to kill a murderer is the victim since his rights were the ones violated. None else no matter how much they are hurting or how heinous the crime have the right to kill someone in cold blood (as in not self defence).

[cheapseats]

UPDATE....Holy hell! This guy can't catch a break!

NYC man jailed 23 years in rabbi’s murder suffers heart attack a day after conviction tossed

NEW YORK — A New York City man whose murder conviction was overturned after 23 years in prison has suffered a heart attack on his second day of freedom.

David Ranta’s lawyer tells The New York Times (http://nyti.ms/102uUVo ) the former inmate had a serious heart attack Friday night and is being treated at a New York hospital.


Ranta walked out of jail Thursday after a judge threw out his conviction in the 1990 killing of a Brooklyn rabbi.

Brooklyn prosecutors had recently concluded Ranta’s prosecution in the death of Rabbi Chaskel Werzberger was fatally flawed.

Werzberger was killed by a bandit fleeing a botched robbery. One witness said a police lineup that helped convict Ranta had been rigged.

Ranta is 58. He told reporters Thursday that his new freedom was emotionally overwhelming.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/nyc-man-jailed-23-years-in-rabbis-murder-suffers-heart-attack-a-day-after-conviction-tossed/2013/03/23/10a4adf6-93e3-11e2-8e33-9cc6c739d012_story.html


If he dies, the detective and whoever offered the plea bargain should face WRONGFUL DEATH charges.

Throw the book at 'em. That's how they LEARN.

[Christian Liberty]

And I would counter that the State does not have the moral justification to execute a citizen. No matter what that citizen did. The only person that would have the moral authority to kill a murderer is the victim since his rights were the ones violated. None else no matter how much they are hurting or how heinous the crime have the right to kill someone in cold blood (as in not self defence).

The victim is dead. Surely at least his heir would have this right?

I don't think we should have professional executioners, no. If necessary, use the army via firing squad (And in my government we wouldn't have any soldiers overseas so I'd seriously doubt we'd have a shortage of them even after cutting the military by half or more.)

Even then, they get Special Jails where they don't have to worry about being raped and get decent food and the whole 9. What a justice system. :rolleyes:

Oh, yes, I'll agree with you that our justice system is screwed up. There's more to that than that we have a death penalty though. Thugs who try to get Leviathan to defend them should be the first to get the axe.

[Ranger29860]

The victim is dead. Surely at least his heir would have this right?

I don't think we should have professional executioners, no. If necessary, use the army via firing squad (And in my government we wouldn't have any soldiers overseas so I'd seriously doubt we'd have a shortage of them even after cutting the military by half or more.)


How is having a soldier execute someone different than a prison official. When you use the term professional executioner I take it to mean anyone paid to execute a person, and if a soldier is not getting paid for his or her time on that firing squad then that soldier needs help.

Also what "right" does the heir have to kill another person? Has his rights been violated? Now the whole purpose of jails is to hold people in punishment for the violation of others rights (i know not all of our laws aka the drug war reflect this sadly) so I am ok with life imprisonment as the result of the violation of others rights. But the killing of another person is a whole other level.

[Christian Liberty]

The death penalty actually makes sense as a penalty. Life impriosnment does not. There's literally no logical connection between "Killing" and "Locking in a cage for life."

More specifically, the victim's heirs already own the murderer, simply because of his crime. See Walter Block (http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block34.html)