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green73
03-22-2013, 05:45 AM
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/03/21/fau-student-claims-he-was-suspended-for-refusing-to-step-on-jesus/


BOCA RATON (CBS4) – A student at Florida Atlantic University said he was unfairly suspended from his Intercultural Communications class because he refused to step on Jesus.

Ryan Rotella, a junior from Coral Springs, said the incident began when his professor, Dr. Deandre Poole, asked students in the class to write the word “Jesus” on a piece of paper, fold it up, and step on it.

Rotella, a deeply religious Mormon, told CBS12 that he was offended and refused to participate in the exercise.

“Anytime you stomp on something it shows that you believe that something has no value. So if you were to stomp on the word Jesus, it says that the word has no value,” said Rotella.

Rotella said he voiced his concerns to his teacher’s supervisor and later learned he was suspended from the class.

FAU said Dr. Poole was conducting a classroom exercise from a textbook entitled “Intercultural Communication: A Contextual Approach, 5th Edition” and released this statement to CBS12: ”Faculty and students at academic institutions pursue knowledge and engage in open discourse. While at times the topics discussed may be sensitive, a university environment is a venue for such dialogue and debate.”

The school has not commented whether the professor would face any disciplinary action.


---
UPDATE: University files charges
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?409116-UPDATE-University-files-charges-against-student-who-refused-to-stomp-on-Jesus

UPDATE #2:
Professor In 'Jesus Stomping' Placed On Administrative Leave
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/03/29/fau-professor-in-jesus-stomping-incident-placed-on-administrative-leave/

VIDEODROME
03-22-2013, 06:01 AM
That's weird that it goes past a merely low grade to full suspension.

phill4paul
03-22-2013, 06:55 AM
Should have just wrote "Obama" on the piece of paper.

Origanalist
03-22-2013, 06:58 AM
Why don't they use Allah instead? Or Mohammed? :rolleyes:

The Goat
03-22-2013, 07:06 AM
Why not wright the teachers name?

Kodaddy
03-22-2013, 07:27 AM
Writing "Allah" would not be much different as he is the god of Abraham, the same entity as "Yahweh" or "God" in Judeo-Christian worship according to the Koran, the Torah and the Bible. It always has confused me why the people of these religions don't get along better as they all worship the same god.

Neil Desmond
03-22-2013, 07:33 AM
Should have just wrote "Obama" on the piece of paper. lol

Why stop there? Why not include Boehner, Romney, Feinstein, Reid, etc? Does it have to be limited to one name?

phill4paul
03-22-2013, 07:43 AM
lol

Why stop there? Why not include Boehner, Romney, Feinstein, Reid, etc? Does it have to be limited to one name?

No. Any of those would have been fine. I was just referencing Jamie Foxx. "It's like church over here. It's like church in here. First of all, give an honor to God and our lord and savior Barack Obama."

Neil Desmond
03-22-2013, 07:47 AM
No. Any of those would have been fine. I was just referencing Jamie Foxx. "It's like church over here. It's like church in here. First of all, give an honor to God and our lord and savior Barack Obama."

Ah.

Smart3
03-22-2013, 07:50 AM
Writing "Allah" would not be much different as he is the god of Abraham, the same entity as "Yahweh" or "God" in Judeo-Christian worship according to the Koran, the Torah and the Bible. It always has confused me why the people of these religions don't get along better as they all worship the same god.

There's virtually no similarities between the Jewish YHVH, the Christian Trinity and the Islamic Al-Ilah.

YHVH has no physical form, the Christian Trinity has three persons, and Al-Ilah is a Unitarian model of god that however is depicted as having human body parts. (You will know that Allah has come when he uncovers his shin)

Not to mention the obvious differences in what their gods intend for humanity.

jbauer
03-22-2013, 07:59 AM
What exactly could one learn or teach about stepping on a peice of paper with any name on it.

No wonder our college kids are stupid, thats what they're doing with their time.

KingNothing
03-22-2013, 08:11 AM
So what intellectual pursuits is the kid going to miss out on while suspended? Throwing notebooks? Spitting on pencils?

What an embarrassingly silly activity.

Athan
03-22-2013, 08:24 AM
What exactly could one learn or teach about stepping on a peice of paper with any name on it.

No wonder our college kids are stupid, thats what they're doing with they're time.

QFT

jmdrake
03-22-2013, 08:27 AM
Interesting to note that despite all of the attacks recently on Mormons not being Christians, it was a Mormon who stood up for Jesus. Who's willing to bet there were some nominal Christians in the class who went along with the teacher? Romans 13. Obey the authority put above you. :rolleyes:

Kodaddy
03-22-2013, 08:43 AM
There's virtually no similarities between the Jewish YHVH, the Christian Trinity and the Islamic Al-Ilah.

YHVH has no physical form, the Christian Trinity has three persons, and Al-Ilah is a Unitarian model of god that however is depicted as having human body parts. (You will know that Allah has come when he uncovers his shin)

Not to mention the obvious differences in what their gods intend for humanity.


While I agree that there does not seem to be much semblance among the three, if you go back to the root of these religions, you will find that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all trace their lineage to Abraham. That each has perverted their ancestries after Abraham to fit their own model does not negate the fact that Abraham is the father of each of these faiths.

Brett85
03-22-2013, 08:45 AM
Kind of like Daniel in the lions den.

Smart3
03-22-2013, 08:56 AM
While I agree that there does not seem to be much semblance among the three, if you go back to the root of these religions, you will find that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all trace their lineage to Abraham. That each has perverted their ancestries after Abraham to fit their own model does not negate the fact that Abraham is the father of each of these faiths.
Except, Abraham never existed and Monotheism is a product of six-century (BCE) thinking circling around the Three Great Ancient Monotheisms (Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Samaritanism). Later these religions ended up creating dozens more - Mandaenism, Manichaenism, Christianity, Islam, Druze, Baha'i, etc just to name a handful. Not to mention the offshoots of these (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh-Day Adventists, Alevi, Alawi, etc)

So saying they go back to Abraham is about as ridiculous as saying Hinduism goes back to Lord Krishna 5000 years ago.

(I'm a descendant of "Abraham" allegedly)

Kodaddy
03-22-2013, 09:37 AM
Except, Abraham never existed and Monotheism is a product of six-century (BCE) thinking circling around the Three Great Ancient Monotheisms (Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Samaritanism). Later these religions ended up creating dozens more - Mandaenism, Manichaenism, Christianity, Islam, Druze, Baha'i, etc just to name a handful. Not to mention the offshoots of these (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh-Day Adventists, Alevi, Alawi, etc)

So saying they go back to Abraham is about as ridiculous as saying Hinduism goes back to Lord Krishna 5000 years ago.

(I'm a descendant of "Abraham" allegedly)

(Not trying to derail thread)
Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I'm not challenging the validity of these religions, just commenting on what is in the scriptures of each of these religions. The Koran teaches that Allah is the god of Abraham as does the Torah teaches that Yahweh is the god of Abraham. Christians also believe that God is the god of the Old Testament (the Torah), also Abraham. Whether he existed or not is incidental to these religions, although each believe that Abraham did exist.

jmdrake
03-22-2013, 09:42 AM
Except, Abraham never existed and Monotheism is a product of six-century (BCE) thinking circling around the Three Great Ancient Monotheisms (Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Samaritanism). Later these religions ended up creating dozens more - Mandaenism, Manichaenism, Christianity, Islam, Druze, Baha'i, etc just to name a handful. Not to mention the offshoots of these (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh-Day Adventists, Alevi, Alawi, etc)

So saying they go back to Abraham is about as ridiculous as saying Hinduism goes back to Lord Krishna 5000 years ago.

(I'm a descendant of "Abraham" allegedly)

Your research is lacking. Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses have a different view of Jesus than the rest of Christianity (Jesus as a created being). Seventh-Day Adventists do not. If you are wanting to talk "different denominations" then you have to throw in Baptists, Pentecostals, Episcopalians etc.

Edit: My apologies for the further thread derail. Just wanted to clear that up.

helmuth_hubener
03-22-2013, 09:45 AM
Big props to Ryan from a fellow Mormon!

Cowlesy
03-22-2013, 09:55 AM
LOL in the words of Shelby Stanga, the Swamp Logger, 'Heere we go!!!!"

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mao5c4Al401qkfedt.gif

Smart3
03-22-2013, 11:29 AM
Your research is lacking. Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses have a different view of Jesus than the rest of Christianity (Jesus as a created being). Seventh-Day Adventists do not. If you are wanting to talk "different denominations" then you have to throw in Baptists, Pentecostals, Episcopalians etc.

Edit: My apologies for the further thread derail. Just wanted to clear that up.

Mormonism and JWs, as well as SDAs are all offshoots or Christian neo-religions. Much like the Qadayanis of India, they have re-interpreted the religion, added new prophets (Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White) and dismissed traditional doctrines like the Trinity. All three groups are exclusionary - it is not possible to be a believer in Jesus without accepting Joseph Smith or Ellen G. White as modern-day prophets. In that respect, they are the inspiration for Scientology.

As always, I do not intend to offend anyone who belongs to these groups.

Christian Liberty
03-22-2013, 12:20 PM
Interesting to note that despite all of the attacks recently on Mormons not being Christians, it was a Mormon who stood up for Jesus. Who's willing to bet there were some nominal Christians in the class who went along with the teacher? Romans 13. Obey the authority put above you. :rolleyes:

Lol. Romans 13 certainly does not apply when it means disobeying God... And while Mormons are not actually Christians in the traditional senses (Or at least, I don't believe they are) I'm still impressed with this guy.


Mormonism and JWs, as well as SDAs are all offshoots or Christian neo-religions. Much like the Qadayanis of India, they have re-interpreted the religion, added new prophets (Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White) and dismissed traditional doctrines like the Trinity. All three groups are exclusionary - it is not possible to be a believer in Jesus without accepting Joseph Smith or Ellen G. White as modern-day prophets. In that respect, they are the inspiration for Scientology.

As always, I do not intend to offend anyone who belongs to these groups.

Do the SDA's believe other Christians are not believers in Christ? I do not recall this. And I've heard some actual debate amongst Evangelical circles regarding what exactly the SDA is. "Kingdom of the Cults" author Walter Martin argues that the SDA's are not a cult all the while arguing that JWs, Mormons, Scientologists, exc. are...

Cowlesy
03-22-2013, 12:38 PM
Isn't the point of this news story that this kind of activity constitutes a class that you pay tuition for in an establishment of higher education?

jmdrake
03-22-2013, 12:43 PM
Mormonism and JWs, as well as SDAs are all offshoots or Christian neo-religions. Much like the Qadayanis of India, they have re-interpreted the religion, added new prophets (Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White) and dismissed traditional doctrines like the Trinity. All three groups are exclusionary - it is not possible to be a believer in Jesus without accepting Joseph Smith or Ellen G. White as modern-day prophets. In that respect, they are the inspiration for Scientology.

As always, I do not intend to offend anyone who belongs to these groups.

You're not offending, just showing your ignorance. SDA's have the same believe on the trinity as any other mainstream Christian religion. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal and have always existed. The prophet Joel and well as the apostle Paul taught that prophecy would be an ongoing gift to God's church. And the SDA church has never taught that you have to accept Ellen White as a prophet to be a Christian. In fact she never even referred to herself as a prophet. Inspiration for Scientology? Don't make me laugh!

jmdrake
03-22-2013, 12:50 PM
Lol. Romans 13 certainly does not apply when it means disobeying God... And while Mormons are not actually Christians in the traditional senses (Or at least, I don't believe they are) I'm still impressed with this guy.

I agree. I just think that some Christians have been beaten down so much by misapplication of Romans 13 that they no longer really stand for God when it actually counts. Standing for God includes questioning your government to make sure it's actually in line with God's principles. The "Don't you dare question America" attitude of some precludes any real stand on principle.



Do the SDA's believe other Christians are not believers in Christ? I do not recall this. And I've heard some actual debate amongst Evangelical circles regarding what exactly the SDA is. "Kingdom of the Cults" author Walter Martin argues that the SDA's are not a cult all the while arguing that JWs, Mormons, Scientologists, exc. are...

SDA's do believe other Christians are believers in Christ. In fact SDA's got the Sabbath from Seventh-Day Baptists. The "Adventist" part refers to particular believes about the end time and the 2nd coming of Jesus. Ironically while that was once unique to various "Adventist" groups, aspects of that belief (that Jesus is literally coming again in the clouds) have been adopted by most evangelical Christians. But SDAs have never bought into the "secret pre-tribulation rapture" idea that's recently become resurgent because of the "left behind" series.

acptulsa
03-22-2013, 01:15 PM
Except, Abraham never existed...

Wait a minute. You're saying that these three religions which all key on this figure Abraham have no relationship with each other because you don't believe this key figure was a historical figure? So, are we arguing that the fact that there's a Abraham that plays prominently in each religion, and the fact that he has sons named Isaac and Ishmael in each religion, is merely a coincidence?

Because that, buddy, is one hell of a coincidence for three unrelated religions.

And if Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, is Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, is Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, then God is Yahweh is Allah, and the details of his construction is merely a subject of disagreement among distant cousins. Right? Because any other argument is just stupid.

Let's not go throwing our brains out with our bathwater around here. There's enough religious warfare around without the would-be peacemakers losing our minds too.

osan
03-22-2013, 01:33 PM
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/03/21/fau-student-claims-he-was-suspended-for-refusing-to-step-on-jesus/

WHAT.

THE.

FUCK.

This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone being suspended from college.


Seriously, what planet am I on?

acptulsa
03-22-2013, 01:36 PM
WHAT.

THE.

FUCK.

This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone being suspended from college.


Seriously, what planet am I on?

Oh, I've heard of people being suspended from college. I have, in fact, heard of people being suspended from college for being extremely offensive. This is, however, the first time I've heard of someone being suspended from college for refusing to be offensive...

QuickZ06
03-22-2013, 01:58 PM
Oh, I've heard of people being suspended from college. I have, in fact, heard of people being suspended from college for being extremely offensive. This is, however, the first time I've heard of someone being suspended from college for refusing to be offensive...

Yeah this whole story is just plain bizarre.

Ender
03-22-2013, 02:04 PM
Mormonism and JWs, as well as SDAs are all offshoots or Christian neo-religions. Much like the Qadayanis of India, they have re-interpreted the religion, added new prophets (Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White) and dismissed traditional doctrines like the Trinity. All three groups are exclusionary - it is not possible to be a believer in Jesus without accepting Joseph Smith or Ellen G. White as modern-day prophets. In that respect, they are the inspiration for Scientology.

As always, I do not intend to offend anyone who belongs to these groups.

Mormons are NOT "off-shoots". They are a separate religion based on Jesus Christ with a philosophy that believes that prophets are still an important part of religion. They also believe in the Father, Son & Holy Ghost, but their belief is that these are 3 separate beings not one God rolled into one.

And, you can certainly be a Christian w/o believing in Joseph Smith- don't know where you got that idea.

QuickZ06
03-22-2013, 02:08 PM
I think some might be getting there facts from South Park regarding Mormonism............

Ender
03-22-2013, 02:08 PM
Except, Abraham never existed and Monotheism is a product of six-century (BCE) thinking circling around the Three Great Ancient Monotheisms (Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Samaritanism). Later these religions ended up creating dozens more - Mandaenism, Manichaenism, Christianity, Islam, Druze, Baha'i, etc just to name a handful. Not to mention the offshoots of these (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh-Day Adventists, Alevi, Alawi, etc)

So saying they go back to Abraham is about as ridiculous as saying Hinduism goes back to Lord Krishna 5000 years ago.

(I'm a descendant of "Abraham" allegedly)

Sorry- but Abraham did exist, as does Krishna. ;)

And Allah is the Arabic name of God- Christian Arabs call God, the father, ALLAH.

Cody1
03-22-2013, 05:30 PM
Smart3 you're full of shit. Many in my family are SDA's and aren't exclusionary like you claim they are. The trinity is in SDA unlike your claims. The only main issues that really clash are over the true Sabbath which is Saturday, not Sunday, and the concept of an immortal soul/Eternal suffering in "Hell". I believe in grace which supersedes denominational boundaries.

In other words.

You're full of shit.

kcchiefs6465
03-22-2013, 06:03 PM
I wouldn't write anyone's God or religion on a piece of paper, fold it up, and step on it. It's called respect and common decency.

AFPVet
03-22-2013, 06:04 PM
Should have just wrote "Obama" on the piece of paper.

Yup

Philhelm
03-22-2013, 06:09 PM
Years ago I would have claimed that there must be more to this story. Not these days though. What kind of stupid classroom activity is this? Students could become more enlightened by sticking their fingers in their butts.

phill4paul
03-22-2013, 06:13 PM
Years ago I would have claimed that there must be more to this story. Not these days though. What kind of stupid classroom activity is this? Students could become more enlightened by sticking their fingers in their butts.

I see what you did there.....

http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4668

jclay2
03-22-2013, 06:41 PM
Interesting to note that despite all of the attacks recently on Mormons not being Christians, it was a Mormon who stood up for Jesus. Who's willing to bet there were some nominal Christians in the class who went along with the teacher? Romans 13. Obey the authority put above you. :rolleyes:

Exactly what I was thinking.

AFPVet
03-22-2013, 06:45 PM
Telling students to step on what they hold dear is repugnant and unacceptable.

Sola_Fide
03-22-2013, 06:47 PM
Your research is lacking. Mormonism and Jehovah Witnesses have a different view of Jesus than the rest of Christianity (Jesus as a created being). Seventh-Day Adventists do not. If you are wanting to talk "different denominations" then you have to throw in Baptists, Pentecostals, Episcopalians etc.

Edit: My apologies for the further thread derail. Just wanted to clear that up.


For the record, early in Ellen G. White's life she did say that Jesus was Michael the Archangel, which was a popular non-Christian belief at the time (shared by the Jehovah's Witnesses). But now the SDA has tried to mainstream as much as it can, so it does defend the Trinity. But SDA will never be a Christian church until it ceases to believe in the investigative judgement, which denies the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus made atonement for sins and SAT DOWN at the right hand of the Father as the book of Hebrews says. His work of atonement is finished forever.

My feelings on the OP is that Mormons (who is the subject of the OP) do far worse than "stepping on" Jesus by their rejection of the Bible. Mormons believe that Jesus did not fully atone for the sins of His people, that Jesus is not THE God of the universe (they are polytheists), and that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan. That twisting of the truth is FAR worse than stepping on a name on a paper.

jkr
03-22-2013, 06:49 PM
I MEAN, REALLY?
CAN IT BE MORE BLATENT?

4GIT these "people"

MRK
03-22-2013, 06:50 PM
Isn't the point of this news story that this kind of activity constitutes a class that you pay tuition for in an establishment of higher education?

From what people in SE Florida have told me, FAU is hardly on the radar and not superbly well respected. I'm sure this won't help. I stopped by to visit the campus one day, and it looked like it tried really hard to look cool from the outside but that was a red flag that told me it lacked substance on the inside. Obviously that's not necessarily the case in all situations. Of course I like to think of my own alma mater as an exception, but I've seen many instances where the universities give that vibe that they spend all your tuition on landscaping. Just sharing an anecdote.

BlackTerrel
03-22-2013, 06:51 PM
Shitting on Christianity is the in thing these days - no shock here.

robert9712000
03-22-2013, 06:55 PM
Wait a minute. You're saying that these three religions which all key on this figure Abraham have no relationship with each other because you don't believe this key figure was a historical figure? So, are we arguing that the fact that there's a Abraham that plays prominently in each religion, and the fact that he has sons named Isaac and Ishmael in each religion, is merely a coincidence?

Because that, buddy, is one hell of a coincidence for three unrelated religions.

And if Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, is Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, is Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, then God is Yahweh is Allah, and the details of his construction is merely a subject of disagreement among distant cousins. Right? Because any other argument is just stupid.

Let's not go throwing our brains out with our bathwater around here. There's enough religious warfare around without the would-be peacemakers losing our minds too.


Dont go questioning smart3.Hes smarter than everyone else and knows who really existed back then and who didnt.I mean how many people are so smart that they name themselves that, so everyone whos dumb can automatically see hes smart and think wow im envious of him,i wish i knew who existed back then and who didnt.I bet hes quite humble too,just ask him im sure hell tell you

acptulsa
03-22-2013, 07:04 PM
Dont go questioning smart3.Hes smarter than everyone else and knows who really existed back then and who didnt.I mean how many people are so smart that they name themselves that, so everyone whos dumb can automatically see hes smart and think wow im envious of him,i wish i knew who existed back then and who didnt.I bet hes quite humble too,just ask him im sure hell tell you

So far, he hasn't said a damned thing. But I'm keeping an eye out for him. Just as soon as he tries to make you envious of him again in this thread, I'll be ready.

osan
03-22-2013, 07:34 PM
I wouldn't write anyone's God or religion on a piece of paper, fold it up, and step on it. It's called respect and common decency.

No, but I might consider cornering the "professor" in a dark alley and caning the living shit out of her with a fresh green willow switch. Or maybe even a light iron bar.

What she demanded of her students was obscene and I would put her on the unemployment line instantly.

We all have to be sensitive to everybody but nobody has to be sensitive to Christians. That just boils me and I'm not even a Christian. While there is plenty to deplore of that faith, at least in its common practices, there is also plenty to admire. Is there ANYTHING in the world of men as perfect as the Golden Rule? Christianity per se is not remarkably "worse" (whatever the hell I mean by that) than any other religion and plenty better in some ways than many other faiths. So to all those who so disparage and show such disrespect to Christians on a blanket basis in the ways that the southern Democrats showed to Negroes with their "all look the same to me" attitudes, I say this: fuck you and the dildo you rode in on. No really - I mean it - fuck you. Come within bitch-slapping range and I will send you directly into next week, first-class express, one-way. If you will not respect others I will certainly show you none for you have failed to earn it.

Did I mention "fuck you"?

God help me but as I get older I become ever less tolerant of stupid and evil people, especially those stupid enough to think they can fool others into believing that they hold the moral high ground. Good gravy, I cannot believe how irritated I've allowed myself to become. I still say "fuck you".

sluggo
03-22-2013, 07:41 PM
If you're taking a class called "Intercultural Communication" you should expect bullshit like this.

kcchiefs6465
03-22-2013, 07:57 PM
No, but I might consider cornering the "professor" in a dark alley and caning the living shit out of her with a fresh green willow switch. Or maybe even a light iron bar.

What she demanded of her students was obscene and I would put her on the unemployment line instantly.

We all have to be sensitive to everybody but nobody has to be sensitive to Christians. That just boils me and I'm not even a Christian. While there is plenty to deplore of that faith, at least in its common practices, there is also plenty to admire. Is there ANYTHING in the world of men as perfect as the Golden Rule? Christianity per se is not remarkably "worse" (whatever the hell I mean by that) than any other religion and plenty better in some ways than many other faiths. So to all those who so disparage and show such disrespect to Christians on a blanket basis in the ways that the southern Democrats showed to Negroes with their "all look the same to me" attitudes, I say this: fuck you and the dildo you rode in on. No really - I mean it - fuck you. Come within bitch-slapping range and I will send you directly into next week, first-class express, one-way. If you will not respect others I will certainly show you none for you have failed to earn it.

Did I mention "fuck you"?

God help me but as I get older I become ever less tolerant of stupid and evil people, especially those stupid enough to think they can fool others into believing that they hold the moral high ground. Good gravy, I cannot believe how irritated I've allowed myself to become. I still say "fuck you".
I agree 100%.. though I probably would have worded it differently lol. Whatever the hell he was trying to 'teach' is irrelevant. I am not a religious man per se, in the conventional sense of going to church etc., but anyone who is that damn ignorant as to make their students write 'Jesus Christ' [or any religion for that matter] on a piece of paper and has them step on it deserves a good smack. And then to have someone removed for refusing to is beyond words. I don't know how they could still have a job after this.

anaconda
03-22-2013, 08:03 PM
"Suspended" from a college class? Did the Professor also send her to the principle's office?

kcchiefs6465
03-22-2013, 08:16 PM
"Suspended" from a college class? Did the Professor also send her to the principle's office?
Maybe the Dean's office though more likely he has to see an academic counseler. Hopefully this doesn't affect the student's GPA too badly.

anaconda
03-22-2013, 08:29 PM
Maybe the Dean's office though more likely he has to see an academic counseler. Hopefully this doesn't affect the student's GPA too badly.

After-school detention maybe?

kcchiefs6465
03-22-2013, 08:33 PM
After-school detention maybe?
Lol. I think he had to write, "I will step on Jesus" 100 times.

phill4paul
03-22-2013, 08:36 PM
Coulda sketched an American flag I suppose..........

Smart3
03-22-2013, 08:47 PM
Rather unfortunate that people mis-understood my previous posts.

Ender
03-22-2013, 08:51 PM
I wouldn't write anyone's God or religion on a piece of paper, fold it up, and step on it. It's called respect and common decency.

1000%

jmdrake
03-22-2013, 08:59 PM
For the record, early in Ellen G. White's life she did say that Jesus was Michael the Archangel, which was a popular non-Christian belief at the time (shared by the Millerites, who became the Jehovah's Witnesses).


For the record John Calvin identified Michael as Jesus. And identifying Michael as Jesus isn't the same as calling Jesus a creating being (as the Jehovah's witnesses do) anymore than saying Jesus took on human form made Him a creating being. The Michael = Jesus view was actually quite prevalent among early protestants. but you wouldn't know that.


But now the SDA has tried to mainstream as much as it can, so it does defend the Trinity.

I guess that means you don't believe that John Calvin accepted the trinity? :rolleyes: Sometimes your lack of theological knowledge astounds me. Sometimes it doesn't. Ellen White, Millerites (whom you clearly know NOTHING about) and all Adventists have always believed in the trinity and always taught the Jesus as co-equal with God and always existed with God. If you believe that God cannot take on other forms then you are not a Christian because you deny that Jesus came in the flesh. If you accept that Jesus came in the flesh as a human, then you must reject the fallacy that you are now pushing that anyone who believes Jesus may have used other forms, including angelic, is non Christian.

If you want to know what SDA's actually believe on this subject, instead of making up lies as you go along, here's a pretty good reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28archangel%29#Seventh-day_Adventists



But SDA will never be a Christian church until it ceases to believe in the investigative judgement, which denies the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus made atonement for sins and SAT DOWN at the right hand of the Father as the book of Hebrews says. His work of atonement is finished forever.

All ^that proves is that you don't understand the investigative judgement or the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Hebrews does not teach that Jesus just interceded once and "sat down."

Ender
03-22-2013, 09:00 PM
For the record, early in Ellen G. White's life she did say that Jesus was Michael the Archangel, which was a popular non-Christian belief at the time (shared by the Millerites, who became the Jehovah's Witnesses). But now the SDA has tried to mainstream as much as it can, so it does defend the Trinity. But SDA will never be a Christian church until it ceases to believe in the investigative judgement, which denies the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus made atonement for sins and SAT DOWN at the right hand of the Father as the book of Hebrews says. His work of atonement is finished forever.

My feelings on the OP is that Mormons (who is the subject of the OP) do far worse than "stepping on" Jesus by their rejection of the Bible. Mormons believe that Jesus did not fully atone for the sins of His people, that Jesus is not THE God of the universe (they are polytheists), and that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan. That twisting of the truth is FAR worse than stepping on a name on a paper.

That is blatant bullshit.

Jesus Christ certainly IS the God of the Universe to Mormons and He also has a Father, who is God the Father. And He certainly DID atone for the sins of the world.

Mormons believe that God is a loving Father who wants His children to have the same life and blessings that He has- they are NOT polytheists in the sense that there are millions of Gods who run the Universe.

They also believe that we all existed in a previous state and we are ALL brothers. Lucifer, who was the Son of the Morning, wanted to force mankind to be like him- so he fell in grace and became Satan. Jesus Christ, who is perfect, said: Not my will but THY will be done.

Christian Liberty
03-22-2013, 09:09 PM
For the record John Calvin identified Michael as Jesus. And identifying Michael as Jesus isn't the same as calling Jesus a creating being (as the Jehovah's witnesses do) anymore than saying Jesus took on human form made Him a creating being. The Michael = Jesus view as actually quite prevalent among early protestants. but you wouldn't know that.

Did Calvin really believe that? This would be sort of funny considering how many people I know that admire Calvin...

Sola_Fide
03-22-2013, 09:11 PM
For the record John Calvin identified Michael as Jesus. And identifying Michael as Jesus isn't the same as calling Jesus a creating being (as the Jehovah's witnesses do) anymore than saying Jesus took on human form made Him a creating being. The Michael = Jesus view as actually quite prevalent among early protestants. but you wouldn't know that.

Whatever. I already conceded that SDA's defend a Trinitarian view now. It is investigative judgement that forever separates Seventh Day Adventism from Christianity.

Sola_Fide
03-22-2013, 09:13 PM
That is blatant bullshit.

Jesus Christ certainly IS the God of the Universe to Mormons and He also has a Father, who is God the Father. And He certainly DID atone for the sins of the world.

Mormons believe that God is a loving Father who wants His children to have the same life and blessings that He has- they are NOT polytheists in the sense that there are millions of Gods who run the Universe.

They also believe that we all existed in a previous state and we are ALL brothers. Lucifer, who was the Son of the Morning, wanted to force mankind to be like him- so he fell in grace and became Satan. Jesus Christ, who is perfect, said: Not my will but THY will be done.


Mormons do not believe that Jesus is the ONLY God that exists, like the Bible says. Mormons are polytheists, therefore they are not Christians.

Anti Federalist
03-22-2013, 09:14 PM
”Faculty and students at academic institutions pursue knowledge and engage in open discourse. While at times the topics discussed may be sensitive, a university environment is a venue for such dialogue and debate.”

Unless you disagree, then we throw your ass out of the class you paid top dollar for.

jmdrake
03-22-2013, 09:16 PM
Whatever. I already conceded that SDA's defend a Trinitarian view now. It is investigative judgement that forever separates Seventh Day Adventism from Christianity.

The problem is that you claim that we defend it "now". SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS HAVE ALWAYS HELD THE TRINITARIAN VIEW! It's a lie to claim or imply otherwise.

And just because you are ignorant of the fact that Hebrews teaches that Jesus lives to make intercession for us, doesn't make that truth non Christian.

jmdrake
03-22-2013, 09:30 PM
Did Calvin really believe that? This would be sort of funny considering how many people I know that admire Calvin...

http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2009/05/john-calvin-vs-emotional-exegesisjesus.html

John Calvin:
As we stated yesterday, Michael may mean an angel; but I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people. He is called the mighty prince, because he naturally opposed the unconquered fortitude of God to those dangers to which the angel represents the Church to be subject. We well know the very slight causes for which terror often seizes our minds, and when we begin to tremble, nothing can calm our tumult and agitation. The angel then in treating of very grievous contests, and of the imminent danger of the Church, calls Michael the mighty prince.

The 18th century American Calvinist theologian Jonathan Edwards went even closer to what would become the Seventh Day Adventist view.

When Lucifer rebelled and set up himself as a head in opposition to God and Christ, and set himself as a head in opposition to God and Christ, and drew away a great number of angels, the Son of God, manifested himself as an opposite head, and appeared graciously to dissuade and restrain by his grace the elect angels from hearkening to Lucifer’s temptation, so that they were upheld and preserved eternal destruction at this time of great danger by the free and sovereign distinguishing grace of Christ. Herein Christ was the Saviour of the elect angels, for thought he did not save them as he did elect men from the ruin they had already deserved, and were condemned to, and the miserable, state they were already in, yet he saved them from eternal destruction they were in great danger of, and otherwise would have fallen into with the other angels. The elect angels joined with him, the glorious Michael, as their captain, while the other angels hearkened to Lucifer and joined him, and then was that literally true that fulfilled afterwards figuratively. Rev xii. “When there was war in heaven : Michael and his angels fought against the dragon ; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not ; neither was there place found any more heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world ; he was case out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 2, Banner of Truth, 1979 reprint, p. 606.)

So this isn't a belief made up by Ellen White or even William Miller as it was around in Protestantism at least 100 years before either of them were born. (Jonathan Edwards died in 1758).

presence
03-22-2013, 09:45 PM
"P - O - O - L - E"

*step*

Sola_Fide
03-22-2013, 10:10 PM
The problem is that you claim that we defend it "now". SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS HAVE ALWAYS HELD THE TRINITARIAN VIEW! It's a lie to claim or imply otherwise.

And just because you are ignorant of the fact that Hebrews teaches that Jesus lives to make intercession for us, doesn't make that truth non Christian.

What does Jesus living to make intercession for the saints have to do with investigative judgement? Investigative judgement is Jesus investigating your WORKS to see if you merit His atonement. There is no way around what Ellen G. White taught. You are not a Christian until you reject that belief and embrace the Jesus of the Bible who has fully atoned for the sins of His people.

Ender
03-22-2013, 10:30 PM
Mormons do not believe that Jesus is the ONLY God that exists, like the Bible says. Mormons are polytheists, therefore they are not Christians.


Uh..... first of all the Bible never says that Jesus is the ONLY God that exists. And the Bible that most claim as "truth" was put together under Constantine's direction, who was a pagan. Many books were left out of the work that was to become the "Bible".

Sola_Fide
03-22-2013, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by jmdrake

And just because you are ignorant of the fact that Hebrews teaches that Jesus lives to make intercession for us, doesn't make that truth non Christian.

Ellen G. White taught various degrees of subordinationism. For example, she said:

"The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty." -Ellen G. White (1903, ms 150, SDA Commentary V, p. 1129)


She also taught in her book Spirit of Prophecy that Christ became God, not that He was God from all eternity:

"The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence."

These are not Trinitarian beliefs...they are not Christian beliefs. Ellen G. White was a false prophet and all who follow her will go to hell.

Sola_Fide
03-22-2013, 10:38 PM
Uh..... first of all the Bible never says that Jesus is the ONLY God that exists.

Yes it most certainly does, sir. The Bible is unequivocal in its assertion that there is ONE God only.

phill4paul
03-22-2013, 10:47 PM
Yes it most certainly does, sir. The Bible is unequivocal in its assertion that there is ONE God only.

Christ.. you Christians are some of the most contentious farts I have ever encountered. I just lol at you/

Anti Federalist
03-22-2013, 10:57 PM
Christ.. you Christians are some of the most contentious farts I have ever encountered. I just lol at you/

Hey!

That made Baby Jesus cry.

:toady::rolleyes:;):D:toady:

Cody1
03-22-2013, 11:06 PM
What do you expect from people telling SDA's like myself that we are going to burn in hell (eternal torment is debatable since the eternal soul is pagan in origin) because we supposedly follow false prophets and deny the trinity. That's the stuff of unicorns and rainbows. Can't say I wish the same on them.

phill4paul
03-22-2013, 11:16 PM
Hey!

That made Baby Jesus cry.

:toady::rolleyes:;):D:toady:

Christ would be appalled at the misunderstanding of his followers as some of the founders would be of theirs.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh-u0t91edA

heavenlyboy34
03-23-2013, 12:03 AM
Uh..... first of all the Bible never says that Jesus is the ONLY God that exists. And the Bible that most claim as "truth" was put together under Constantine's direction, who was a pagan. Many books were left out of the work that was to become the "Bible".
It is true that many jews during and before Jesus' time were polytheistic and there is no one "Judaism", but the work of the Church Fathers makes a compelling case for the triune God. IOW, the bible implicitly says that Jesus is the one true God (who took on flesh to atone for the sins of man). And the reason many books were left out of the canon is because they were inauthentic (but that's complicated enough for its own thread, so I won't start a debate about that here)

heavenlyboy34
03-23-2013, 12:05 AM
Yes it most certainly does, sir. The Bible is unequivocal in its assertion that there is ONE God only. I agree. Augustine goes into pretty good detail on this.

Ranger29860
03-23-2013, 12:32 AM
I can maybe understand what the teacher was going for in this "activity" , being that symbols or words hold no power unless you give it to them. But he seriously needs his head examined if he thought a predominately christian class that he would not cause a huge problem by using the word jesus as an example. He could have very easily used a slew of other things.

Ranger29860
03-23-2013, 12:37 AM
Yes it most certainly does, sir. The Bible is unequivocal in its assertion that there is ONE God only.

For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD.

Exodus 12:12

Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever.

Psalm 136:2

God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?

Psalm 82:1-2


Not wanting to get into an argument on the bible but I really hate when people don't know what the hell they are talking about.

*edit*
Not mentioning the ten commandments due to the way they are worded imply a created god (aka golden calf) but the others above don't make those assertions.

acptulsa
03-23-2013, 05:22 AM
Rather unfortunate that people mis-understood my previous posts.

Yeah. But much less unfortunate than being dead wrong, eh?

So, what's the most offensive? A professor requiring people to step upon a name written on a piece of paper? This is nothing holy; a graven image at best. What does it mean to step on it? Nothing. Indeed, it's an insult to God to get upset over a graven image as that implies there's no substance to God.

How about a sophist arguing that three religions that obviously are talking about the same group of ancients have diverged enough in minor details that their identical God is three different gods? This is a bit more substantive than a name on a piece of paper; here we have someone disdaining the history behind these religions and therefore trying to rob them of some real legitimacy.

And then we have one fundamentalist trying to disparage the fundamentals of other sects to the point where he can make his own little sect an exclusive club and exclude as many people as possible from salvation. Is this more or less Christian than having people step on graven images? Seems a damned sight more rude to me. After all, graven images should mean nothing to a Christian. And to imply one needs a lawyer to get him into heaven is rather insulting to God.

This professor is a jerk. But the prof is not the only jerk, or possibly not even the biggest jerk.

Sola_Fide
03-23-2013, 05:50 AM
For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD.

Exodus 12:12

Give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures forever.

Psalm 136:2

God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?

Psalm 82:1-2


Not wanting to get into an argument on the bible but I really hate when people don't know what the hell they are talking about.

*edit*
Not mentioning the ten commandments due to the way they are worded imply a created god (aka golden calf) but the others above don't make those assertions.

So you don't understand that the Bible teaches there is one God and many false gods that are idols?

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 06:05 AM
Ellen G. White taught various degrees of subordinationism. For example, she said:

You took the quote out of context. Not surprising because you've done that in the past. Ellen White taught the same thing Paul taught. Here's Ellen White.

"Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings.
This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--that it is possible
for man to obey the laws of God's kingdom. Equal with the Father, honored and adored by the angels, in our behalf Christ humbled Himself, and came to this earth to live a life of lowliness and poverty--to be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Yet the stamp of divinity was upon His humanity. He came as a divine Teacher, to uplift human beings, to increase their physical, mental, and spiritual efficiency. There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Here's Paul.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus, as God, consented to be humbled to the form of a man that was powerless to do anything without His Father.

Even Jesus said this Himself.

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 5:30 I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

You have committed the same fallacy Muslims commit, which is to say that acknowledging that Christ voluntarily humbled Himself and placed Himself under His Father's authority while on earth was a sign of weakness and proof that He wasn't God. Nothing could be further from the truth.



She also taught in her book Spirit of Prophecy that Christ became God, not that He was God from all eternity:

Again you left out much of the quote. Here's what you left out. Now quit being dishonest.

Satan in Heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God’s dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance, and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Jesus, God’s dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Satan was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone.

The point Ellen White was making is the same as the Jonathan Edwards quote that I gave earlier. That is that Jesus, being ominpotent, has the power to take on any form that He very well pleases including an angel. That doesn't mean He's not God. Ellen White made it clear, in the part you clipped out, that Jesus was one with the Father and preexisted all creation including angels. But the angels didn't know that. How could they? They weren't there. They had to accept that truth on faith. Satan chose not to accept the authority of Jesus or of any member of the Trinity.



These are not Trinitarian beliefs...they are not Christian beliefs. Ellen G. White was a false prophet and all who follow her will go to hell.

False accusers are the ones destined to hell, and that would be you. If you are going to attack Ellen White, put her in context. It's not that hard. You have a search engine. Satan, when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness, did exactly what you are doing. He took a verse out of the Bible, took out a key phrase, and presented it as truth. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. Edit: And before you jump in and say "jmdrake is saying EGW is equal to the Bible!" I am not. EGW didn't believe that herself. The point that I'm making is that anything must be quoted in context. If you selectively quote things and take them out of context that is dishonest. When I quoted what John Calvin said about Jesus and Michael I gave the full context. It's interesting that you haven't even attempted to respond to that. One minute the "Jesus as Michael" was your "solid proof" that SDAs rejected the Trinity, then when I knocked that argument down you smoothly went to the next one without even acknowledging your error.

And you should give everybody full disclosure. While you like to pick on SDAs because you know I am one, you actually think that Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Orthodox Christians and anyone else who believes that Jesus died to save everyone (not just the "elect") are non Christians and destined to hell. Going by "Smart3's" definition of a cultist (someone that thinks that Christians that don't believe exactly as he does is not a Christian) that makes you the biggest cultist of them all. Even though you love to quote John Calvin and Martin Luther, you doubt their Christianity because at times they wrote things that at least implied that they believed that salvation was available to everyone and not just the "elect". It's a sick and twisted belief system you follow that makes God into the worst tyrant imaginable. He becomes someone who creates beings for the sole purpose of making them kindling for eternity, including babies.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 06:09 AM
And for anyone interested in what SDAs actually believe, here are other writings from Ellen White about the divinity of Christ.

Chapter 1—Deity and Nature of Christ

Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was One with the eternal Father,—one in nature, in character, in purpose,—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). His “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2).—Patriarchs and Prophets, 34.

The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, “I and My Father are One.” The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as He put forth the claim that He and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.—The Signs of the Times, November 27, 1893, p. 54.

Yet the Son of God was the acknowledged Sovereign of heaven, one in power and authority with the Father.—The Great Controversy, 495.

To save the transgressor of God’s law, Christ, the One equal with the Father, came to live heaven before men, that they might learn to know what it is to have heaven in the heart. He illustrated what man must be to be worthy of the precious boon of the life that measures with the life of God.—Fundamentals of Christian Education, 179.

The only way in which the fallen race could be restored was through the gift of His Son, equal with himself, possessing the attributes of God. Though so highly exalted, Christ consented to assume human nature, that He might work in behalf of man and reconcile to God His disloyal subject. When man rebelled, Christ

Christ shows them that, although they might reckon His life to be less than fifty years, yet His divine life could not be reckoned by human computation. The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures.—The Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899.

Life, Original, Unborrowed, Underived—Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. “He that hath the Son hath life.” The divinity of Christ is the believer’s assurance of eternal life.—The Desire of Ages, 530 (1898).

With the Father at Sinai—When they [Israel] came to Sinai, He took occasion to refresh their minds in regard to His requirements. Christ and the Father, standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty proclaimed the Ten Commandments.—Historical Sketches, p. 231. (1866).

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity—The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.—Manuscript 145, 1901.

Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.).

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God....

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 06:19 AM
What does Jesus living to make intercession for the saints have to do with investigative judgement? Investigative judgement is Jesus investigating your WORKS to see if you merit His atonement. There is no way around what Ellen G. White taught. You are not a Christian until you reject that belief and embrace the Jesus of the Bible who has fully atoned for the sins of His people.

You said, and this is as direct quote: But SDA will never be a Christian church until it ceases to believe in the investigative judgement, which denies the atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus made atonement for sins and SAT DOWN at the right hand of the Father as the book of Hebrews says. His work of atonement is finished forever.

The Bible does not teach that Jesus just "sat down" and quit His work of atoning after the cross. The SDA belief of the investigative judgement is about Christ's continuing work, not ours. Our "work" is to remain under the blood. It's just like the blood that was applied to the doorposts at the Passover. The angel didn't apply the blood to the doorposts for anyone. And everyone had the same opportunity to be saved or lost, Israelite or Egyptian. It didn't matter how "good" you were. All that mattered was that you were in a home covered by the blood. When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, it didn't matter how "good" the stricken person was. All that mattered is that he looked up and lived or if he refused to look up and died. You have a view of salvation that sets you outside of mainstream Christianity. It's a view that God creates some for salvation and some for kindling including babies. If anyone disagrees with that view, you believe that person is either a "universalist" and thinks everyone will ultimately be saved, or is teaching "salvation by works" because to you even accepting the free gift of God's grace is somehow a "work". You think that all people who believe that salvation is available to everyone are not Christians. You, just like a bully, choose to pick on certain groups you feel are "unpopular", lest the truth of your own unpopular belief be revealed. If you want to believe that all Christians who believe Christ's death was for all mankind are "non Christians", fine. Just be honest about your belief. Your attack on SDAs as teaching "salvation by works" has nothing to do with you misunderstanding of the investigative judgement, and everything to do with your rejection of the truth most Christians accept that everyone can be saved even though many will be lost.

Polomy
03-23-2013, 06:26 AM
There's virtually no similarities between the Jewish YHVH, the Christian Trinity and the Islamic Al-Ilah.

YHVH has no physical form, the Christian Trinity has three persons, and Al-Ilah is a Unitarian model of god that however is depicted as having human body parts. (You will know that Allah has come when he uncovers his shin)

Not to mention the obvious differences in what their gods intend for humanity.

You do realize that you quoted someone who described Allah according to the Quran yet you describe an extra-Quranic definition of Allah exclusive to some Islamoc sects, right? That's contadictory.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 06:33 AM
Rather unfortunate that people mis-understood my previous posts.

Rather unfortunate that you misunderstood what you were saying in your previous posts and now aren't taking the opportunity to learn better.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 06:37 AM
Interesting to note that despite all of the attacks recently on Mormons not being Christians, it was a Mormon who stood up for Jesus. Who's willing to bet there were some nominal Christians in the class who went along with the teacher? Romans 13. Obey the authority put above you. :rolleyes:

You know, it's funny how this thread has been derailed to a question of which sect is Christian and which is not, and the original point, that only one person out of an entire class (perhaps an entire college if you consider all of the Christians who haven't yet quit that school in protest) stood up for Jesus against the "authority" of one evil professor. That reminds me of the story of the 10 lepers. Nine were Jews. One was a Samaritan who didn't have the "correct" belief system. He's the one that came back to thank Jesus.

presence
03-23-2013, 06:46 AM
Hey!

That made Baby Jesus cry.

:toady::rolleyes:;):D:toady:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3j6DdLVDeLY/USZ1CHVzfpI/AAAAAAAABZ8/VSCN8d8fdUo/s1600/url.jpeg

presence
03-23-2013, 06:47 AM
"P - O - O - L - E"

*step*

or perhaps better


"F - O - O - L - E"

*step*

Sola_Fide
03-23-2013, 06:56 AM
The Bible does not teach that Jesus just "sat down" and quit His work of atoning after the cross.

Yes sir it most certainly does:



Hebrews 10:12-14

But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Jesus entered (past tense) the Most Holy Place ONCE FOR ALL and He OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION for His people (past tense).

Hebrews 9:12

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

Sorry for the caps and the bold, but this is why Seventh Day Adventism is not Christianity and I'm trying to get you to see that.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 07:13 AM
Yes sir it most certainly does:

No it doesn't. Your "proof texting" just shows you don't understand how to study the Bible. Or do you think it's impossible for Jesus to stand up after He sat down? Hebrews clearly teaches that Jesus lives to make intercession for us. I already gave you that verse. But your false doctrine requires you to ignore parts of the Bible that disagree with you, rather than taking in the entire Bible into consideration. That's what makes you a cultist.

Edit: You didn't even quote the relevant part of Hebrews 9, specifically verse 15.

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Christ is our mediator present tense. Chew on that.



Jesus entered (past tense) the Most Holy Place ONCE FOR ALL and He OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION for His people (past tense).


His people must come before the throne of grace for that redemption to be applied.

Hebrews 4:14-16
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.



Sorry for the caps and the bold, but this is why Seventh Day Adventism is not Christianity and I'm trying to get you to see that.

Again it is time for you to quit being a coward and own up to what you truly believe. You believe that ALL Christians, whether they be Baptists or Pentacostals, or Methodists, who believe that salvation is freely available to all are not Christians. Quit lying and claiming that you are only attacking SDAs, Mormons and JWs when you are attacking Christianity in general.

Edit: And while I'm sure this is a waste of time, I will add this in case you are truly interested in understanding salvation, or at least understanding the SDA understanding of it.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Look at verse 19. It clearly says that God reconciled the world (not just the "elect") to Himself through Jesus at the cross. But look at verse 20. Paul teaches that Christians are to tell others to "be reconciled" to God. He didn't say Christians are to tell people "You are already reconciled to God so don't worry about it." He didn't say "Preach to those that are the elect so that they can realize they are already reconciled." So the Adventist interpretation (and that of the Baptist and the Methodist and the Pentacostal and any other Arminianist church) is that reconciliation means two different things. The first is that full provision was made for the reconciliation of the entire world at the cross. All debts were paid, past present and future. But not everyone will take advantage of that free gift. Paul admonished Christians to be "ambassadors of reconciliation" to let everyone know that the free gift was available to them. All they had to do was to "Come boldly before the throne of grace." You don't have to go to some earthly priest to obtain grace. You don't have to do some great deed to "make up" for your sins. Jesus explained it clearly when He said "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23). That's the Seventh Day Adventist view. It just so happens to be the Christian view. At least according to Christ.

Sola_Fide
03-23-2013, 07:27 AM
No it doesn't. Your "proof texting" just shows you don't understand how to study the Bible. Or do you think it's impossible for Jesus to stand up after He sat down? Hebrews clearly teaches that Jesus lives to make intercession for us. I already gave you that verse. But your false doctrine requires you to ignore parts of the Bible that disagree with you, rather than taking in the entire Bible into consideration. That's what makes you a cultist.

Okay. Let's look at the verse again. Why did Jesus sit down? He sat down because His work of atonement was COMPLETE:


Hebrews 10:12-14

But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

His work of atonement is complete. This is why Ellen G. White was a false prophet. Jesus entered the Most Holy Place ONCE FOR ALL (not in 1844) and OBTAINED (past tense) redemption for His people. His work is done:


Hebrews 9:12

He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.











His people must come before the throne of grace for that redemption to be applied.

Hebrews 4:14-16
14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Yes, only God's elect are even able to come. The book of Hebrews was written to Christians, not unbelievers. So when it says that we must come boldly to the throne of grace, it is speaking to Christians, not unbelievers.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 07:44 AM
Okay. Let's look at the verse again. Why did Jesus sit down? He sat down because His work of atonement was COMPLETE:

His work in making provision for the salvation of the entire world, not just the elect, was complete. Again you have to look at 2 Corinthians if you want to understand this as opposed to your "proof texting". God reconciled the entire world (not just the elect) to Himself at the cross through Jesus. But Christians are told to tell others to "be reconciled" to God. That can only mean that the word "reconciliation" is being used two different ways. One is for provision of reconciliation. The other is the application of that reconciliation. Christ does not "re sacrifice" Himself (although Paul did teach that when we sin we crucify Christ again, but that's a different meaning), but that doesn't mean He doesn't continually intercede and mediate on our behalf. Anyway, the truth is there if you want to understand it. But I don't think you actually have that desire.



His work of atonement is complete. This is why Ellen G. White was a false prophet. Jesus entered the Most Holy Place ONCE FOR ALL (not in 1844) and OBTAINED (past tense) redemption for His people. His work is done:


Then Paul is a false prophet because he taught we needed to be ambassador's of reconciliation to tell people to be reconciled to God.

And the writer of Hebrews must be a false prophet as well.

Hebrews 9:24
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

Now take this a bit further. You seem to be teaching that the sanctuary = the cross. But Hebrew 9:24 clearly teaches otherwise. The true sanctuary is in heaven. And consider this. Jesus did not ascend into heaven until after His resurrection.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

So that clearly destroys the claim that Jesus "entered the most Holy Place" through His death on the cross. He couldn't have if the true sanctuary is in heaven, and if He hadn't gone to heaven until two days after His death on the cross. And He's still in heaven, appearing before God on our behalf.



Yes, only God's elect are even able to come. The book of Hebrews was written to Christians, not unbelievers. So when it says that we must come boldly to the throne of grace, it is speaking to Christians, not unbelievers.

If the grace of Christ was already applied to these believers then why do they need to come before the throne of God to receive mercy? And your interpretation here actually further undercuts your false belief system. In 2 Corinthians Paul told believers (Christians) to go to unbelievers to tell them to be reconciled with God. Now here you are admitting that believers must continue, even after becoming believers to go before the throne of God to receive mercy. I don't disagree with you on that. But that is clear Arminianism, something you have flatly rejected as non Christian. (It's also the view Jesus presented when He said believers should take up their cross daily and follow Him). And again, when are you going to be honest in this thread and admit that you have declared all Arminianist, be they Baptists, Pentecostal, Methodist or otherwise, to be non Christian? How long are you going to continue to hide your true agenda behind the veil that you are only attacking SDAs?

Fivezeroes
03-23-2013, 07:47 AM
Good for this student, that teacher should have never tried to force him to step on his religious beliefs.

Origanalist
03-23-2013, 10:14 AM
UPDATE: Florida Atlantic University apologizes for Jesus Stomping 101

So, the story about the Florida Atlantic University student who says he ended up suspended because he refused to stomp on a piece of paper bearing the word “JESUS” has really taken off nationally.

As The Daily Caller reported on Thursday morning, junior Ryan Rotela, a devout Mormon, says he was booted from class after he told an FAU school official that the Jesus-stomping assignment made him uncomfortable.

An FAU official initially defended the suspension, telling local CBS affiliate WPEC that the Jesus-stomping was part of a classroom exercise from a textbook, “Intercultural Communication: A Contextual Approach, 5th Edition.”


Now, Mediaite has confirmed that the instructor’s manual accompanying textbook does, in fact, recommend Jesus-stomping.

The manual reads:


“This exercise is a bit sensitive, but really drives home the point that even though symbols are arbitrary, they take on very strong and emotional meanings. Have the students write the name JESUS in big letters on a piece of paper. Ask the students to stand up and put the paper on the floor in front of them with the name facing up. Ask the students to think about it for a moment. After a brief period of silence, instruct them to step on the paper. Most will hesitate. Ask why they can’t step on the paper. Discuss the importance of symbols in culture.”


The FAU class in which the Jesus-stomping assignment occurred was called intercultural communications. Deandre Poole was the professor.

Mediaite helpfully points out that Professor Poole is the vice-chairman of the Palm Beach Democratic Party.

Also, another FAU faculty member was in the news recently. James Tracy, tenured associate professor of media history, bizarrely claimed that the Dec. 14 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School didn’t happen as it was widely reported — and perhaps didn’t happen at all. (RELATED: Public university professors join ranks of Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists)


On Friday, reports Todd Starnes of Fox News, FAU issued an apology for Poole’s assignment. The public, taxpayer-funded school said it won’t be using the assignment again.

“We sincerely apologize for any offense this has caused,” the apology said. “Florida Atlantic University respects all religions and welcomes people of all faiths, backgrounds and beliefs.”

FAU noted that no one was forced to participate in the assignment and that no one was punished because of it.

“We can confirm that no student has been expelled, suspended or disciplined by the University as a result of any activity that took place during this class,” the statement read.

Presumably, then, the school is saying that Rotela was not suspended from the class.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/23/update-florida-atlantic-university-apologizes-for-jesus-stomping-101/#ixzz2ONd77P1G

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/23/update-florida-atlantic-university-apologizes-for-jesus-stomping-101/#ixzz2ONcz2OHF

Sola_Fide
03-23-2013, 10:16 AM
His work in making provision for the salvation of the entire world, not just the elect, was complete. Again you have to look at 2 Corinthians if you want to understand this as opposed to your "proof texting". God reconciled the entire world (not just the elect) to Himself at the cross through Jesus. But Christians are told to tell others to "be reconciled" to God. That can only mean that the word "reconciliation" is being used two different ways. One is for provision of reconciliation. The other is the application of that reconciliation. Christ does not "re sacrifice" Himself (although Paul did teach that when we sin we crucify Christ again, but that's a different meaning), but that doesn't mean He doesn't continually intercede and mediate on our behalf. Anyway, the truth is there if you want to understand it. But I don't think you actually have that desire.



Then Paul is a false prophet because he taught we needed to be ambassador's of reconciliation to tell people to be reconciled to God.

And the writer of Hebrews must be a false prophet as well.

Hebrews 9:24
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

Now take this a bit further. You seem to be teaching that the sanctuary = the cross. But Hebrew 9:24 clearly teaches otherwise. The true sanctuary is in heaven. And consider this. Jesus did not ascend into heaven until after His resurrection.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

So that clearly destroys the claim that Jesus "entered the most Holy Place" through His death on the cross. He couldn't have if the true sanctuary is in heaven, and if He hadn't gone to heaven until two days after His death on the cross. And He's still in heaven, appearing before God on our behalf.



If the grace of Christ was already applied to these believers then why do they need to come before the throne of God to receive mercy? And your interpretation here actually further undercuts your false belief system. In 2 Corinthians Paul told believers (Christians) to go to unbelievers to tell them to be reconciled with God. Now here you are admitting that believers must continue, even after becoming believers to go before the throne of God to receive mercy. I don't disagree with you on that. But that is clear Arminianism, something you have flatly rejected as non Christian. (It's also the view Jesus presented when He said believers should take up their cross daily and follow Him). And again, when are you going to be honest in this thread and admit that you have declared all Arminianist, be they Baptists, Pentecostal, Methodist or otherwise, to be non Christian? How long are you going to continue to hide your true agenda behind the veil that you are only attacking SDAs?



None of this is about investigative judgement, which is the issue at hand. Ellen G. White (the lone figurhead that you accept as the authoritative person to interpret the Bible, as other cults do) says two things:

1. In 1844, Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place to begin a work of judgement to investigate who is worthy of His atonement by their works

2. That Jesus pleads our repentance and faith before the Father

Number 1 is wrong because as the verses in Hebrews I showed you, Jesus already made atonement for His people and perfected them. He already entered the Most Holy Place ONCE for all and presented His blood to the Father. A believer is NEVER judged by his works for salvation. A believers works have nothing to do with his salvation. It is Christ's blood alone. No person is ever worthy of salvation, and one can never do enough to be worthy.

Number 2 is wrong because again it brings works into the equation of salvation. Christ does not plead the saint's repentance and faith before God, as if my sin-tainted repentance and faltering faith could avail before a perfect and holy God. Christ pleads His blood alone before the Father on behalf of His sheep. It's is Christ's merits which avail before the Father, not anything in man.


These things are why Seventh Day Adventism is not Christianity.

Origanalist
03-23-2013, 10:19 AM
Good grief! I haven't been following this thread. Nothing goes sideways as fast as a thread with Christianity in it. :rolleyes:

Ranger29860
03-23-2013, 11:44 AM
UPDATE: Florida Atlantic University apologizes for Jesus Stomping 101

So, the story about the Florida Atlantic University student who says he ended up suspended because he refused to stomp on a piece of paper bearing the word “JESUS” has really taken off nationally.

As The Daily Caller reported on Thursday morning, junior Ryan Rotela, a devout Mormon, says he was booted from class after he told an FAU school official that the Jesus-stomping assignment made him uncomfortable.

An FAU official initially defended the suspension, telling local CBS affiliate WPEC that the Jesus-stomping was part of a classroom exercise from a textbook, “Intercultural Communication: A Contextual Approach, 5th Edition.”


Now, Mediaite has confirmed that the instructor’s manual accompanying textbook does, in fact, recommend Jesus-stomping.

The manual reads:


“This exercise is a bit sensitive, but really drives home the point that even though symbols are arbitrary, they take on very strong and emotional meanings. Have the students write the name JESUS in big letters on a piece of paper. Ask the students to stand up and put the paper on the floor in front of them with the name facing up. Ask the students to think about it for a moment. After a brief period of silence, instruct them to step on the paper. Most will hesitate. Ask why they can’t step on the paper. Discuss the importance of symbols in culture.”


The FAU class in which the Jesus-stomping assignment occurred was called intercultural communications. Deandre Poole was the professor.

Mediaite helpfully points out that Professor Poole is the vice-chairman of the Palm Beach Democratic Party.

Also, another FAU faculty member was in the news recently. James Tracy, tenured associate professor of media history, bizarrely claimed that the Dec. 14 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School didn’t happen as it was widely reported — and perhaps didn’t happen at all. (RELATED: Public university professors join ranks of Sandy Hook conspiracy theorists)


On Friday, reports Todd Starnes of Fox News, FAU issued an apology for Poole’s assignment. The public, taxpayer-funded school said it won’t be using the assignment again.

“We sincerely apologize for any offense this has caused,” the apology said. “Florida Atlantic University respects all religions and welcomes people of all faiths, backgrounds and beliefs.”

FAU noted that no one was forced to participate in the assignment and that no one was punished because of it.

“We can confirm that no student has been expelled, suspended or disciplined by the University as a result of any activity that took place during this class,” the statement read.

Presumably, then, the school is saying that Rotela was not suspended from the class.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/23/update-florida-atlantic-university-apologizes-for-jesus-stomping-101/#ixzz2ONd77P1G

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/23/update-florida-atlantic-university-apologizes-for-jesus-stomping-101/#ixzz2ONcz2OHF

Well thats a little odd.

So from what I gather either

1. The professor didn't follow the assignment plan and required the students to actually stomp on the paper instead on using their hesitation as a learning point, then proceeded to kick a student out for not stomping.

or

2. The professor followed the instructions and did not require them to stomp on the peice of paper but the student got upset and left the classroom.

Really don't know if either of those two scenarios are correct but that is what I can gather from is implied in the stories so far.

BTW I dont really disagree with the assignment, it actually highlights a very important point about symbols and how they hold so much power over us.

acptulsa
03-23-2013, 12:41 PM
None of this is about investigative judgement, which is the issue at hand.

Investigative judgement was not the issue the two of you were discussing at all. Investigative judgement was something you dredged up (as you usually do as you're fixated on it) in order to justify your contention that Seventh Day Advantists don't fit your rather narrow definition of 'Christian'. That was the only way that subject came into your discussion.


Ellen G. White (the lone figurhead that you accept as the authoritative person to interpret the Bible, as other cults do) says...

Did it ever occur to you that, if you have your heart set on changing Mr. Drake's religion for him, the least you could do as a preparatory step is learn to spell 'figurehead'? Because Mr. Drakes a pretty bright guy, and I don't think he's going to be particularly swayed by the conversion arguments of an illiterate.

Or did you wait until he logged off so you could come try to convince us he's a Seventh Day Advantist? Because if that was your grand plan, you're a sick little puppy. Amusingly so, since we would all consider that funny as hell. But sick nonetheless.

MelissaWV
03-23-2013, 12:51 PM
Good grief! I haven't been following this thread. Nothing goes sideways as fast as a thread with Christianity in it. :rolleyes:

Jesus, you got that right.

helmuth_hubener
03-23-2013, 01:22 PM
I am quite happy to be not considered a "Christian", for reasons that are highlighted in this thread, and other reasons. You guys can keep your "Official Christian"TM name brand: trademark, copyright, all rights reserved, patent pending. I'll just be a follower of Jesus.

acptulsa
03-23-2013, 01:31 PM
I am quite happy to be not considered a "Christian", for reasons that are highlighted in this thread, and other reasons. You guys can keep your "Official Christian"TM name brand: trademark, copyright, all rights reserved, patent pending. I'll just be a follower of Jesus.

Rest assured that the fundamentals of exclusion will still say unto you, it don't mean a thing without their Secret Decoder Ring.

Sola_Fide
03-23-2013, 03:22 PM
Investigative judgement was not the issue the two of you were discussing at all. Investigative judgement was something you dredged up (as you usually do as you're fixated on it) in order to justify your contention that Seventh Day Advantists don't fit your rather narrow definition of 'Christian'. That was the only way that subject came into your discussion.



Did it ever occur to you that, if you have your heart set on changing Mr. Drake's religion for him, the least you could do as a preparatory step is learn to spell 'figurehead'? Because Mr. Drakes a pretty bright guy, and I don't think he's going to be particularly swayed by the conversion arguments of an illiterate.

Or did you wait until he logged off so you could come try to convince us he's a Seventh Day Advantist? Because if that was your grand plan, you're a sick little puppy. Amusingly so, since we would all consider that funny as hell. But sick nonetheless.

It's Adventist, not Advantist...so unlike my misspelling of figurehead (I don't have spell check turned on on my phone), your misspelling betrays a lack of understanding of the issues.

Believe me, I understand why you think all of these squabbles about doctrine are meaningless. It's because you don't love the Lord Jesus Christ, and so naturally you don't care about defending the gospel against false gospels like the apostles did.

You don't understand the gospel, and if you think I'm being "narrow" in my definition, then you haven't read the books of Romans and Galatians to understand how severely narrow Paul was. The issue of the atonement is the central doctrine of Christianity. If you get the atonement wrong, like all of these cults do, you get everything wrong and you lose the gospel.

acptulsa
03-23-2013, 03:31 PM
It's Adventist, not Advantist...

I stand corrected.


so unlike my misspelling of figurehead (I don't have spell check turned on on my phone), your misspelling betrays a lack of understanding of the issues.

What issue? The issue of Advent? The fact that they consider it a weekly event while most protestants consider it annual is more important than the fact that you're using some figurehead to turn Mr. Drake from one religion to another? I don't agree.


Believe me, I understand why you think all of these squabbles about doctrine are meaningless. It's because you don't love the Lord Jesus Christ, and so naturally you don't care about defending the gospel against false gospels like the apostles did.

And you can believe me that I understand why you perform all these squabbles and try to accuse everyone who understands someone else's doctrine as being someone who subscribes to someone else's doctrine. It's because you're in Satan's pocket, and do his bidding daily.


You don't understand the gospel, and if you think I'm being "narrow" in my definition, then you haven't read the books of Romans and Galatians to understand how severely narrow Paul was.

And if you're as narrow as I am in your definition of 'gospel', you'd discover that it's enlightening to read Jesus' words, and discover that He wasn't narrow at all. Then when you used the word 'love' it wouldn't come across as such a foreign word to you.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 05:13 PM
None of this is about investigative judgement, which is the issue at hand. Ellen G. White (the lone figurhead that you accept as the authoritative person to interpret the Bible, as other cults do) says two things:

1. In 1844, Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place to begin a work of judgement to investigate who is worthy of His atonement by their works

2. That Jesus pleads our repentance and faith before the Father

Number 1 is wrong because as the verses in Hebrews I showed you, Jesus already made atonement for His people and perfected them. He already entered the Most Holy Place ONCE for all and presented His blood to the Father. A believer is NEVER judged by his works for salvation. A believers works have nothing to do with his salvation. It is Christ's blood alone. No person is ever worthy of salvation, and one can never do enough to be worthy.

Number 2 is wrong because again it brings works into the equation of salvation. Christ does not plead the saint's repentance and faith before God, as if my sin-tainted repentance and faltering faith could avail before a perfect and holy God. Christ pleads His blood alone before the Father on behalf of His sheep. It's is Christ's merits which avail before the Father, not anything in man.


These things are why Seventh Day Adventism is not Christianity.

You are self deceived. As I showed you in 1st Corinthians, Christ reconciled the entire world, elect and non elect, at the Cross. But individual atonement happened later. Again, that's why were are to be "ambassadors for reconciliation." Paul wouldn't admonish us to tell others to "be reconciled" to Christ if they were already individually reconciled. Further since the Most Holy Place is the presence of God (the mercy seat represents the throne of God) as long as Jesus is in the presence of God He is in the Most Holy Place. And I showed you that the Bible says Jesus LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR US. In other words, intercession is going on right now.

Lastly, you are continuing to lie and claim that you are only attacking Seventh Day Adventists, when the truth is you are attacking Christianity as a whole. You know this. You have done so in the past. All Arminianist churches, Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc, are your enemy. Why do you persist in the charade that you are only talking about Adventists? Are you afraid of being exposed as the fraud that you are? Everyone that frequents the religion subforum has seen you exposed as a fraud and a non Christian. You're just exposing yourself further here.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 05:16 PM
Good grief! I haven't been following this thread. Nothing goes sideways as fast as a thread with Christianity in it. :rolleyes:

Nothing goes sideways as fast as a thread Sola_Fide jumps into with his anti-Christian agenda. And back to the original point. I'm glad the Mormon stood up for Jesus. I suspect he will make it into heaven faster than many "Christians" who attack Mormons. I don't agree with the Mormon faith, but I applaud this particular Mormon's faith. (As in faith that God will vindicate him for standing up for right).

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 05:24 PM
Believe me, I understand why you think all of these squabbles about doctrine are meaningless. It's because you don't love the Lord Jesus Christ, and so naturally you don't care about defending the gospel against false gospels like the apostles did.

You don't understand the gospel, and if you think I'm being "narrow" in my definition, then you haven't read the books of Romans and Galatians to understand how severely narrow Paul was. The issue of the atonement is the central doctrine of Christianity. If you get the atonement wrong, like all of these cults do, you get everything wrong and you lose the gospel.

Ah. So you're starting to let the truth about your own hollow self leak out. You no more think acptulsa is a Christian than you do I. That proves, as I've been saying, that this has nothing to do with the investigative judgment or Michael the Archangel (I see you've dropped that now that I busted you on John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards) or any other SDA belief. You believe that everyone that doesn't accept your version of the Gospel, which is that God is an evil tyrant that creates babies solely so that He can barbeque them for eternity, isn't a Christian. Sorry, but I do not and will not accept your grotesque mischarecterization of my loving heavenly Father just to appease you.

Ender
03-23-2013, 05:28 PM
It's Adventist, not Advantist...so unlike my misspelling of figurehead (I don't have spell check turned on on my phone), your misspelling betrays a lack of understanding of the issues.

Believe me, I understand why you think all of these squabbles about doctrine are meaningless. It's because you don't love the Lord Jesus Christ, and so naturally you don't care about defending the gospel against false gospels like the apostles did.

You don't understand the gospel, and if you think I'm being "narrow" in my definition, then you haven't read the books of Romans and Galatians to understand how severely narrow Paul was. The issue of the atonement is the central doctrine of Christianity. If you get the atonement wrong, like all of these cults do, you get everything wrong and you lose the gospel.


◄ John 8:15 ►

"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man."

If Jesus judges no man, then who are we to judge anyone.

jmdrake
03-23-2013, 05:31 PM
What issue? The issue of Advent? The fact that they consider it a weekly event while most protestants consider it annual is more important than the fact that you're using some figurehead to turn Mr. Drake from one religion to another? I don't agree.


For the record, the "Advent" in "Adventism" refers to the belief in the literal second coming of Jesus Christ. In contrast, Sola_Fide believes that the prophecies Jesus gave in Matthew 24 refer only to the destruction of Jerusalem (SDAs believe they were dual prophecies), and that the coming of the kingdom of God prophesied in Daniel and other places refers to the growing influence of Christendom throughout the entire world. Now so many Protestant churches are "Adventist" in some form or fashion that the word no longer carries the distinction it once did. That said, Adventists don't go for the pre-tribulation "Left behind" rapture belief that seems to be growing in popularity.

acptulsa
03-23-2013, 06:29 PM
For the record...

Interesting enough, and only partly review. But it doesn't change the fact that his remarks considering Ms. White and his belief that she's a figurhead [sic] is much more germane to his insistence that anyone who states SDA dogma without lying about it must be portrayed as belonging to the church, as opposed to any alleged hatred I supposedly feel toward the Son of God.

So, if you're not a lawyer for Jesus you don't love Jesus. Well, then. And here I thought Jesus didn't particularly care for Pharisees...

Lucille
03-26-2013, 08:00 AM
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/03/25/jesus-stomping-professor-fau-story-continues-with-non-apology-then-apology-and-now-charges-filed-against-student-who-complained/?singlepage=true


Just in time for Holy Week, this “Stomp Jesus” story has developed some intriguing twists and turns.
[...]
Today Fox News reports:


University Files Charges Against Student who Refused to Stomp on Jesus

A Florida Atlantic University student who filed a complaint against his professor after he was ordered to stomp on the name of Jesus has been brought up on academic charges by the school and may no longer attend class, according to documents obtained by Fox News.

The report continues:


Hiram Sasser, director of litigation at the Liberty Institute, told Fox News the university’s behavior is “outlandish” and called their press release “inaccurate.”

“We believe the university punished him in retaliation for him exposing the class assignment to the public,” Sasser said. “Sadly, it is a testimony to the indoctrination that some of the public schools and universities are engaging in – to demonize anything that was valuable in the culture.”

h/t http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/03/persecution-in-america.html


It's fascinating, is it not, how those who deny Jesus Christ, from Roman emperors to petty academic professors, are observably obsessed with forcing others to symbolically reject the name of Man's Lord and Savior:

PaulConventionWV
03-26-2013, 08:23 AM
Wait a minute. You're saying that these three religions which all key on this figure Abraham have no relationship with each other because you don't believe this key figure was a historical figure? So, are we arguing that the fact that there's a Abraham that plays prominently in each religion, and the fact that he has sons named Isaac and Ishmael in each religion, is merely a coincidence?

Because that, buddy, is one hell of a coincidence for three unrelated religions.

And if Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, is Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, is Abraham, father of Isaac and Ishmael, then God is Yahweh is Allah, and the details of his construction is merely a subject of disagreement among distant cousins. Right? Because any other argument is just stupid.

Let's not go throwing our brains out with our bathwater around here. There's enough religious warfare around without the would-be peacemakers losing our minds too.

Great post. I couldn't have said it better. If they are all related, then what's the point in arguing the nature of belief each religion has? It's not like you can assume that each religion even has a uniform belief. What's more, you are starting with the assumption that Abraham is not a historical figure, a faulty premise which you then use to lure people into a debate that would otherwise be completely useless if it turns out you were wrong about your assumption that Abraham never existed. Surely three unrelated religions didn't just imagine up the same exact person as their ancestor...

PaulConventionWV
03-26-2013, 08:37 AM
After-school detention maybe?

Had to sit alone during lunch?

PaulConventionWV
03-26-2013, 08:53 AM
I can maybe understand what the teacher was going for in this "activity" , being that symbols or words hold no power unless you give it to them. But he seriously needs his head examined if he thought a predominately christian class that he would not cause a huge problem by using the word jesus as an example. He could have very easily used a slew of other things.

The idea that nothing has meaning unless you give it meaning is not necessarily true when we get to the philosophical and metaphysical origins of reason, which is used to figure out what has meaning. Because, if nothing has meaning and we are the origin of meaning, then life really does not have meaning. So asking someone to admit that life has no meaning is going to evoke a lot of anger and resentment, for lack of a better term. It's basically telling someone that they should accept the fact that there is no god and the meaning they impose on God is a figment of their imagination. That's not only offensive, that's an attack on the Christian religion in its most blatant form. If that was really the lesson, then this professor does not know enough to teach it because they obviously don't understand why people impose meaning on things in the first place. Sometimes it's because they believe things actually DO have meaning. This isn't the same thing as stepping on the name of someone who doesn't like you as if to say, "their opinion has no meaning." This is akin to stepping on the name of a figure whom you greatly respect to signify the idea that they really have no meaning and any meanning you give them is simply a product of your mind. So if anyone thinks this lesson had an iota of reason or intelligence in it, they need to consider the fact that imposing meaning on something is not always arbitrary and telling someone to deny the concrete nature of the meaning they impose is like telling them their life and everything they believe is based on a fiction. It's the most heinous of noxious and absurd beliefs that it's okay to tell someone their beliefs are arbitrary because it precludes any real meaning except that which you impose, which you really have no way of knowing. It is arrogant, pretentious, and presumptuous.

jmdrake
03-26-2013, 08:54 AM
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/03/25/jesus-stomping-professor-fau-story-continues-with-non-apology-then-apology-and-now-charges-filed-against-student-who-complained/?singlepage=true


h/t http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/03/persecution-in-america.html

Florida Atlantic University is a publicly funded institution. (Just looked it up). So will mainstream Florida Christians stand with this Mormon student and demand the university either fully reinstate him or face a total cutoff of funds? That would be epic! I won't be holding my breath though. :(

green73
03-30-2013, 10:54 AM
UPDATE:
Professor In 'Jesus Stomping' Placed On Administrative Leave
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/03/29/fau-professor-in-jesus-stomping-incident-placed-on-administrative-leave/