Attornies

[Christian Liberty]

First off, wasn't sure which forum this was supposed to go in. Picked this one arbitrarily.

Secondly...

I'm going to college next year. Planning to go to community for two years, then transfer for two... and my current plan is to go to law school.

Now, here's my question, is there any use for an honest libertarian in this profession? Why or why not.

I have gathered that libertarians by and large hate prosecutors. This is the exact opposite of everyone I have seen in real life, who hate defense attornies, because they believe that they are more dishonest. I don't know the details of the whole thing, but personally, I have no problem with a prosecutor putting a genuine criminal away. If he's a bank robber, or a murderer, or a rapist, exc. Lock him away. I think a couple of the anarchists here object to even this, but I don't.

That said, I will never support the arrest of a VICTIMLESS person. I will never support the arrest of the drug user, exc.

Now, my line of thinking is this, if I could sometime in my future find a good place to get elected DA, I could potentially simply throw out charges in any drug related cases or other victimless crimes. I could imagine a libertarian DA could do good for the people under his jurisdiction, by throwing out victimless crimes. That said, I'm not totally sure exactly to what extent this "Works." Is there any such thing as a good DA? Is it possible for one to exist? Is there any use for libertarians taking over such positions?
Discuss.

[fr33]

I would think an "honest libertarian" could do well as a defense attorney.

As for District Attorney it's kinda like the "I'm a cop" thread. Just to get to that position you would have to do many un-libertarian things and would have to continue to just to keep your job. I guess it would be kind of awesome if you were able to get elected and just throw out every victimless crime. They'd find a way to remove you though because that would cut off so much funds from the state you'd probably fear for your life, etc, etc.

[Christian Liberty]

As for District Attorney it's kinda like the "I'm a cop" thread. Just to get to that position you would have to do many un-libertarian things and would have to continue to just to keep your job. I guess it would be kind of awesome if you were able to get elected and just throw out every victimless crime. They'd find a way to remove you though because that would cut off so much funds from the state you'd probably fear for your life, etc, etc.

I actually feel kind of bad for that guy, I'm sure he's not perfect but he seems like he's trying in a messed up system. I do wonder if its worth trying though, and to what extent....

[kcchiefs6465]

I have never seen a good DA. Sure, a lot are good hearted and mean good things, but the law is the law is the law as they see it. Any plea towards rationality is discredited. Most are too caught up in their conviction percentage. Let's be serious, most want to move up the ladder as much as the next. While I'd like to hope there aren't any that would purposely put an innocent man behind bars they will inevitibly do so. And I am of the personal belief that marijuana laws or drug law in particular are innocent vices, not worthy of three hots and a cot. Putting crack heads, for example, in a place where their cell mate may expertise in credit card fraud, is really not for the betterment of society. Prisons are by and large crime schools. Not to mention many are around hardened criminals who have no respect for life- it breeds that mentality from those who may be good people, but cannot show weakness on any level. The system is corrupt, from the top to the bottom. Aspirations to reach the next level ruin any sense of it being an honest and balanced Court.

You will never get elected should you simply choose not to prosecute all drug offenses. I am not sure of the exact laws but you will be recalled if not impeached and jailed yourself. People are by and large of the belief that they have the authority to dictate other peoples' lifestyles. It isn't going to change overnight and as long as it's prevelant you're heading down the wrong path. Probably end up sounding like fivezeroes in that you need to make a living and can't see any other way to do it.

I'm not trying to discourage you. If you wish to try and be an honest, liberty DA, go for it. I am not sure on how much success you will have.

[phill4paul]

Attorney. Plural..........at·tor·neys. Just sayin'.

[presence]

Attorneys



meh... beat me to it.

[kcchiefs6465]

Attorney. Plural..........at·tor·neys. Just sayin'.


Attorneys
How ironic that the grammar police show up at the same time. :D


:toady:

[phill4paul]

How ironic that the grammar police show up at the same time. :D


:toady:

Squirrel! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Christian Liberty]

Yeah, sorry about the title error. If a mod wants to fix it they can. I kind of feel stupid now, but I wasn't really worrying about the spelling. Oh well. People make mistakes.

Can you actually get arrested for simply throwing out charges? I thought that that was completely legal. Granted, not likely to get you elected, but illegal?

[Christian Liberty]

I should note that I am aware of jury nullification and if I ever get called for a drug case I will absolutely utilize it.

[fr33]

I actually feel kind of bad for that guy, I'm sure he's not perfect but he seems like he's trying in a messed up system. I do wonder if its worth trying though, and to what extent....

I do too but I think the discussion might be an eye opener for him. Maybe not right now but in the future he might start to notice how right the RPF people were about some things.

[Christian Liberty]

I do too but I think the discussion might be an eye opener for him. Maybe not right now but in the future he might start to notice how right the RPF people were about some things.

I'm young and idealistic. I don't want to end up doing anything immoral either...

I don't judge fivezeroes for doing what he needs to do in that regard, I really blame the politicians who make those laws, but I couldn't in good conscience contribute anything (Well, anything that isn't extracted at gunpoint) to help enforce them.

[angelatc]

www.volokh.com - they're all libertarian to varying degrees. Eugene is nice enough - email him and ask what he thinks.

[Dianne]

Within the hell hole of a state I live in ... North Carolina .. there are no attorneys who are honest.

If I could ever find one, first thing I would do is sue North Carolina and their Smokey and the Bandet State. Of course, they try to look posh... like they graduated mid school... But North Carolina is the dregs of the USA ... Sure their IQ might surpass South Carolina, as evidenced by SC's continuing acceptance of Twinkle Toes ... Draft Dodger Lindsey Graham..

Outside of that North Carolina and South Carolina are in a dead heat for the worst States in the USA ... And there are no attorney's beyond a 50 IQ willing to fight these mega pimps.
these

[kcchiefs6465]

Yeah, sorry about the title error. If a mod wants to fix it they can. I kind of feel stupid now, but I wasn't really worrying about the spelling. Oh well. People make mistakes.

Can you actually get arrested for simply throwing out charges? I thought that that was completely legal. Granted, not likely to get you elected, but illegal?
Don't worry about the spelling mistake. 99.9 percent of my edits are because of them. In fact, I spelled 'ladder,' 'latter,' which is why I had to edit.

I am not sure if you could be arrested for not prosecuting certain crimes. I am sure there is a process in place to remove those who choose to though. I haven't read enough into it. Good luck in whatever you choose. If it violates your principles you don't need it. There are countless other ways to make a living or even to make a positive impact.

[Grubb556]

If you can detach yourself emotionally from the case then go for it. Look at Clarence Darrow, he represented two boys who were charged for murder, and got them life sentences (as opposed to death penalty).

[Aeroneous]

I'm going to attack this from a more practical standpoint.

The legal market is HORRID right now. ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. I considered law school heavily for about a year, researched it like crazy, and ultimately decided against it. I'll go over it briefly.

First of all, law has a bimodal salary distribution. "Big Law" pays around 160k a year, but these jobs are extremely limited in nature, and the only way you can even have the slightest bit of hope that you will get this type of job is if you go to a "Top 14" school (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UMich, UPenn, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, UVA, etc.) and graduate in the top half of the class. Outside of the Top 14, you need to graduate in the top 5-10% of your class to try and score a Big Law job. The other, more common salary range, is in the 45k area. 45k isn't a bad salary at all, but when you just dumped a ton of money into law school it's just not good enough.

http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PressReleases/2011Curveforweb2.gif
(NALP Class of '11 Bimodal Salary Graph)

You cannot go by the employment statistics on law school websites. They are completely misreported, and law schools will do ridiculous things to inflate them. Your best bet for law school employment statistics is:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

So let's say you decide to go to law school. If you don't score an internship between your 1L and 2L years, you're screwed already. Summer internships between the 2L and 3L years are based upon previous internships, and ultimately job placement post graduation is based on those internships. Even if you get some outstanding internships during your summers, it's still a very slim chance that you'll have a quality legal job upon graduation. If you don't get a job right after graduation, you could likely be screwed for the rest of your career. Law firms, DA offices, public defender offices, clerkship opportunities, etc., almost always hire straight from school. They would much rather hire a fresh grad than someone who graduated a year prior. In the extremely likely scenario that you don't have a job on graduation, you will probably end up taking Document Review temp work to make ends meet (zero benefits, $18/hr if you're lucky). Imagine reading legal documents non-stop, all day long, searching for punctuation errors.

It's just a ridiculous gamble. I still would love to go to law school, but financially it just doesn't appear to be feasible or practical. Plenty of people point to friends and family that are lawyers and doing well, but what they don't understand is that the market now is completely different from when those people first started.

If you do decide to go law school or bust, your goal should be only to get the best possible GPA you can. The two factors law schools care about are GPA and LSAT scores. Other factors are considered "softs" and make little to no difference whatsoever in your application prospects. It's a profession where your undergraduate degree only matters if you go into IP (Intellectual Property) law, and outside of that you should do the major that you can get the best GPA in. The LSAT is the most easily learned test out there. When and if you do plan to take it, spend several months preparing for it. There are prep classes, books, online programs, etc., that can guarantee you score in the high 160s/170s. Also, keep your debt load down as much as possible.

Some resources for you to check out:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ (shows user submitted admissions data)
http://www.nalp.org/classof2011 (NALP class of 2011 data.. the NALP site has a ton of info)
http://www.jdunderground.com (good "real" view of the law grad's plight on these forums)
http://www.top-law-schools.com (has law school rankings, admissions info, forums, etc.)

[phill4paul]

Yeah, sorry about the title error. If a mod wants to fix it they can. I kind of feel stupid now, but I wasn't really worrying about the spelling. Oh well. People make mistakes.

NP. I believe that if you go under advanced in your OP you, yourself, can correct your thread title. At least you used to be able to.

[MRK]

^^^ I completely agree with Aeronoius's post.

I graduated in the past couple years and had the opportunity to go to law school as I had always thought I would. Decided against it because it just didn't make sense.

Now I am self employed and leverage my programming skills to get repetitive things done in lieu of employees. I'm on track to make an absurd amount of money this year. I would strongly recommend something similar rather than law school. My best friend who is my age is in law school, still, and has as of yet hundreds of thousands of debt to show for it. You could always "try it out" for law school, but to be honest to you, knowing that you aren't even halfway done with undergrad, by the time you graduate L3 the US economy will be seriously lacking for fruit to pick. My advice is to make some money now before there's no more good money to be made. Don't go to school for prestige or what your parents or friends think if your goal is to make money and earn a living.

The problem is jobs as an employee are returning less and less even while the currency is inflating! I can't foresee myself ever being employed again unless it was for a company that gave me an executive position with honest pay and benefits of the days of yore. There is waaay too high of a supply of labor, supply of people with degrees, especially law degrees in the United States, supply of people overseas, and supply of competitors that have programs do all their work for people to make upper middle class salaries anymore. Such positions for anyone even 10 years older than you are drying up faster than a water molecule on the surface of venus during a runaway greenhouse effect.

[Acala]

I have been practicing law for about 30 years. Never in the criminal area, but I know a bit about it. So here are my thoughts.

The majority of lawyers are not at all happy with their career. Poll after poll, year after year, shows lawyers to be among the least happy of any class of people. There are many reasons why that might be true. It tends to be a high-stress, high-conflict job. Public lawyers (like prosecutors and public defenders) are not paid particularly well considering the amount of schooling and hard work required. Private sector lawyers can make a lot of money but work a lot of hours too, so on an hourly basis are often not all that well-compensated either.

While it is possible to promote the cause of liberty as a lawyer (check out the Institute for Justice and various Second Amendment lawyers) the fraction of lawyers who are really doing patriot work is almost non-existent.

While it is true that prosecutors have some discretion to refuse to file cases they feel are not well-founded, and thus play a role in protecting the rights of the people, the reality is that prosecutors generally work for politicians who have their own agenda and can make things very difficult for the prosecutor if they were to refuse to prosecute many cases that could be "won". The best you could really do would be a little bit at the margins of a case load that would include generous helpings of ruining people's lives for totally victimless activity. Thinking that would lead to being DA is a slender reed. You would be better off going straight into politics.

Defense attorneys have more opportunity to extract people from the "justice" system who have done no harm, but the reality is that defense lawyers spend a great deal of time fighting for the release of people they know are really nasty specimens. That can create some cognitive dissonance.

I would honestly not suggest the law as a career. I would suggest using your time and resources to learn a skill that will be useful in the coming black market - healing skills, welding, locksmithing, etc. Lawyers have a really hard time operating in the black market.

[Christian Liberty]

Within the hell hole of a state I live in ... North Carolina .. there are no attorneys who are honest.

If I could ever find one, first thing I would do is sue North Carolina and their Smokey and the Bandet State. Of course, they try to look posh... like they graduated mid school... But North Carolina is the dregs of the USA ... Sure their IQ might surpass South Carolina, as evidenced by SC's continuing acceptance of Twinkle Toes ... Draft Dodger Lindsey Graham..

Outside of that North Carolina and South Carolina are in a dead heat for the worst States in the USA ... And there are no attorney's beyond a 50 IQ willing to fight these mega pimps.
these

Honestly, I thought NYS was the worst state... or maybe Illionois or California...

I live in NYS. But I probably won't live here forever. If I had to pick between the two places I have lived in for any length of time, I'd go back to Florida in a heartbeat rather than staying here, long term.


Don't worry about the spelling mistake. 99.9 percent of my edits are because of them. In fact, I spelled 'ladder,' 'latter,' which is why I had to edit.

I am not sure if you could be arrested for not prosecuting certain crimes. I am sure there is a process in place to remove those who choose to though. I haven't read enough into it. Good luck in whatever you choose. If it violates your principles you don't need it. There are countless other ways to make a living or even to make a positive impact.

I'll have to look into it, thanks.


I'm going to attack this from a more practical standpoint.

The legal market is HORRID right now. ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE. I considered law school heavily for about a year, researched it like crazy, and ultimately decided against it. I'll go over it briefly.

First of all, law has a bimodal salary distribution. "Big Law" pays around 160k a year, but these jobs are extremely limited in nature, and the only way you can even have the slightest bit of hope that you will get this type of job is if you go to a "Top 14" school (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UMich, UPenn, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, UVA, etc.) and graduate in the top half of the class. Outside of the Top 14, you need to graduate in the top 5-10% of your class to try and score a Big Law job. The other, more common salary range, is in the 45k area. 45k isn't a bad salary at all, but when you just dumped a ton of money into law school it's just not good enough.

http://www.nalp.org/uploads/PressReleases/2011Curveforweb2.gif
(NALP Class of '11 Bimodal Salary Graph)

You cannot go by the employment statistics on law school websites. They are completely misreported, and law schools will do ridiculous things to inflate them. Your best bet for law school employment statistics is:
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com

So let's say you decide to go to law school. If you don't score an internship between your 1L and 2L years, you're screwed already. Summer internships between the 2L and 3L years are based upon previous internships, and ultimately job placement post graduation is based on those internships. Even if you get some outstanding internships during your summers, it's still a very slim chance that you'll have a quality legal job upon graduation. If you don't get a job right after graduation, you could likely be screwed for the rest of your career. Law firms, DA offices, public defender offices, clerkship opportunities, etc., almost always hire straight from school. They would much rather hire a fresh grad than someone who graduated a year prior. In the extremely likely scenario that you don't have a job on graduation, you will probably end up taking Document Review temp work to make ends meet (zero benefits, $18/hr if you're lucky). Imagine reading legal documents non-stop, all day long, searching for punctuation errors.

It's just a ridiculous gamble. I still would love to go to law school, but financially it just doesn't appear to be feasible or practical. Plenty of people point to friends and family that are lawyers and doing well, but what they don't understand is that the market now is completely different from when those people first started.

If you do decide to go law school or bust, your goal should be only to get the best possible GPA you can. The two factors law schools care about are GPA and LSAT scores. Other factors are considered "softs" and make little to no difference whatsoever in your application prospects. It's a profession where your undergraduate degree only matters if you go into IP (Intellectual Property) law, and outside of that you should do the major that you can get the best GPA in. The LSAT is the most easily learned test out there. When and if you do plan to take it, spend several months preparing for it. There are prep classes, books, online programs, etc., that can guarantee you score in the high 160s/170s. Also, keep your debt load down as much as possible.

Some resources for you to check out:
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ (shows user submitted admissions data)
http://www.nalp.org/classof2011 (NALP class of 2011 data.. the NALP site has a ton of info)
http://www.jdunderground.com (good "real" view of the law grad's plight on these forums)
http://www.top-law-schools.com (has law school rankings, admissions info, forums, etc.)

Yeah, I have heard this. I'm smart (Admittedly, this seems like a cocky statement, but oh well) but I really suck in STEM related stuff. I took half of trig, but never finished it. I may have theoretically been able to, but I could never get further than that. When I tried taking trig in one year, I was averaging an EXTREMELY low failing grade (Probably like 30%, and I'm usually an A-B student) so I switched out after one month. I'm great at History, scored a 5 on the APUS exam with very little study, and scored a 3 on the AP-Euro exam on a single textbook read and no studying OR taking an AP-Euro class (That reads a little unclear... I got a 5 on the AP US test by taking an AP-level US History class with nearly no study, and I got a 3 on the AP-Euro Test which I only read the textbook once for and did NOT take an AP-Level European History class.) I'm pretty good in other social studies related courses, am a good writer (Admittedly, this may be hard to believe after my typo in the OP:D But I'm not very good at science, and absolutely suck at any High School level and up math (I'm currently a senior in high school, if that wasn't made clear, not sure if I posted that or not.)

So ultimately, here's my question. I'm planning to go to community college first (Save money) and then transfer. I know statistically STEM majors are the "Best" when it comes to careers, but I really can't do it. I don't have the skills. My plan was to study political science, or some other social studies major and then go into law. I'm not really sure how useful a liberal arts degree is by itself. For anyone who reads LRC, I remember a fairly recent LRC article that advised against going to law school (I believe it was between 3-4 weeks ago, or so) that also said that the writer thinks that liberal arts majors will be more useful now because of the internet. I don't know how accurate that is, however.


. You would be better off going straight into politics.


While I don't have an explicit goal to enter politics, I'd probably like to run somewhere some day, especially considering how few libertarians there are. I don't anticipate necessarily doing very well, but I will probably eventually want to try. That's not explicitly my reason for wanting to go into law though. Of course, promoting liberty is a big reason, but politics is kind of an "Aside" reason. How hard is it for libertarians (Small l, I'm not specifically talking about the LP here, while I don't support the GOP I'd be more than happy to run as one for political reason) to get elected to positions anyway? I imagine fairly difficult.

Defense attorneys have more opportunity to extract people from the "justice" system who have done no harm, but the reality is that defense lawyers spend a great deal of time fighting for the release of people they know are really nasty specimens. That can create some cognitive dissonance.

Yeah, that's really my problem with that path. Also the fact that you'd have to lie almost certainly to even get the victimless people off. That the person who smoked marijuana and is on trial isn't actually deserving of jail time doesn't mean that he didn't do it, yet I'd have to claim that he didn't do it to get him off. I couldn't just argue that he doesn't deserve imprisoment since he's innocent. I'm not sure how "Partisan" the position of DA is but something I have considered... I have no idea who the DA is where I live, and while I'm not the most knowledgeable about politics, I'm almost certainly in the top 10%, or better, in that area. I don't know anything about the DA. Is it a position people vote "Party lines" on usually? If so, it might be possible to run under the GOP ticket and nobody would really have any idea that it was a Ron Paul Republican except for the people who personally know me.

(NOTE: I'm thinking out loud here, not drawing out a life plan as I type the post.)


I would honestly not suggest the law as a career. I would suggest using your time and resources to learn a skill that will be useful in the coming black market - healing skills, welding, locksmithing, etc. Lawyers have a really hard time operating in the black market.[/
Yeah, true, and we're probably screwed although I don't know how long that it will take to come to fruitation. Thanks for the advice. If you could reply back to the other queries I posted above I'd appreciate it.

[pcosmar]

Discuss.
Why do you think there should be a State Prosecutor? Why do you think there is any legitimate use for such?

The victim should bring charges and prosecute the case.


I would think an "honest libertarian" could do well as a defense attorney.


I would think so as well.
Heck,, an honest Lawyer would be a welcome change of pace.

[Christian Liberty]

Why do you think there should be a State Prosecutor? Why do you think there is any legitimate use for such?

The victim should bring charges and prosecute the case.

I agree with you on principle. My line of thinking was that since DAs exist, having one that wouldn't prosecute drug crimes and such would be a good thing. And I don't think it is immoral as such that the state prosecutes people who commit acts of violence against their fellow men. I don't think its wrong per say, even though I think restitution to the victim should also be required, for a person who commits a violent crime to go to prison for the safety of everyone and as punishment for using violence in the first place.

[donnay]

Let Gerry Spence be your mentor.

http://www.gerryspence.com/

[pcosmar]

I agree with you on principle. My line of thinking was that since DAs exist, having one that wouldn't prosecute drug crimes and such would be a good thing. And I don't think it is immoral as such that the state prosecutes people who commit acts of violence against their fellow men. I don't think its wrong per say, even though I think restitution to the victim should also be required, for a person who commits a violent crime to go to prison for the safety of everyone and as punishment for using violence in the first place.

You seem focused on "drug Crime"..
That is not the only abuse of the system,, just the most visible. The entire system is wholly corrupt.

Here is some good reading,, and food for thought.
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

[Christian Liberty]

You seem focused on "drug Crime"..
That is not the only abuse of the system,, just the most visible. The entire system is wholly corrupt.

Here is some good reading,, and food for thought.
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Prosecutions for drug crimes and violation of gun permit laws are the two biggest abuses of the system. They certainly aren't the only two. My "And such" should be read as "Anything else with no victim."

[presence]

I think your best bet would be a small town Prosecutor not a state level DA job in this current political climate.

Humboldt California might take you.

[Acala]

Also the fact that you'd have to lie almost certainly to even get the victimless people off. That the person who smoked marijuana and is on trial isn't actually deserving of jail time doesn't mean that he didn't do it, yet I'd have to claim that he didn't do it to get him off. I couldn't just argue that he doesn't deserve imprisoment since he's innocent.

Actually not. In theory, and generally in practice, attorneys don't personally make ANY factual representations in court. Attorneys introduce factual evidence through the testimony of witnesses and the admission of documents created by others. Of course witnesses may lie. Attorneys are not supposed to knowingly allow that. Some do, but it is not necessary to do the job.

Remember, as a defense attorney you do not have to prove your client did not commit the crime. You only need to show that the government has FAILED to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your client committed the crime. So your case consists of poking holes in the prosecutor's case, establishing an alibi, and creating doubt in the minds of the jury.


I'm not sure how "Partisan" the position of DA is but something I have considered... I have no idea who the DA is where I live, and while I'm not the most knowledgeable about politics, I'm almost certainly in the top 10%, or better, in that area. I don't know anything about the DA. Is it a position people vote "Party lines" on usually? If so, it might be possible to run under the GOP ticket and nobody would really have any idea that it was a Ron Paul Republican except for the people who personally know me.


I think it depends on the particular state. Here, the County attorney is an elected office and the current holder of the office is a batshit crazy democrat.