Tired of Cruz for President Talk

[abacabb]

"Of advanced economies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country) (as defined by the International Monetary Fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund)), Canada and the United States are the only countries that observe birthright citizenship."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

Cruz was born in Canada and is by birthright a citizen of Canada. If the children of immigrants on U.S. soil are by birthright American, what kind of leap of logic dictates that Cruz is natural-born U.S. and can be U.S. President?

You know, they speak French in Corsica and German in Austria, so Napoleon was "French enough" and Hitler was "German enough."

The fact that Americans even consider people of questionable birthright and that the media obviously pushes these people sickens me.

I don't even have anything against Cruz the man. I just believe in the Constitution and I heavily suspect he's a neo-con in sheeps clothing, meant to destroy Rand in 2016.

[FrankRep]

Who's talking about Cruz for president?

He's Canadian.

[abacabb]

Who's talking about Cruz for president?

He's Canadian.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/cruz-draws-presidential-buzz-but-is-he-eligible-85873.html

[brushfire]

Its a sign of the times... Those with no direction will cling onto anyone. Dont get me wrong, I do like Cruz, but these people are willing to follow anyone at this point. Rubio, Christie, etc... Rick Perry was one of the more ridiculous messiahs - its amazing that I still find people who defend him (as though he was somehow unjustly portrayed as a moron by the media).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MwJOnleriM

[abacabb]

I go with the gourd.

[sailingaway]

The supreme court I am sure would be happy to read 'natural born' to mean American at birth, at this point. It would be a change of dicta more than settled law because there just aren't many cases on it and our new supreme court, Roberts included, seem to be fairly marxist.

At least that Obamacare decision by Roberts was an incredible reach.

I don't know how many people in the country at this point think American at birth doesn't mean natural born. I was surprised to learn of the distinction, myself. My problem isn't as much with that but with dual nationality. I think you should have to pick one or it is a conflict of interest to vote, in a sense. I do believe in sovereignty. I think the German's have it right. At 18 you have to pick your country.

[itshappening]

People are very aware of Cruz's birthright "problem" and also of Rubio's. Look on FreeRepublic and every thread about them and whether they have higher ambitions people are pointing this out.

The main defense for them seems to be since the courts have never ruled on it then it's okay

[abacabb]

Where was Rubio born?

[itshappening]

Where was Rubio born?

I think his "problem" is to do with his parents and whether one of them was a citizen or not at the time of his birth.

[abacabb]

I think his "problem" is to do with his parents and whether one of them was a citizen or not at the time of his birth.
Why? Is the jurisprudence of the 14th amendment that hard to understand?

Granted, a good argument can be made about "original intent" of that specific amendment, but lacking yet another amendment to the Constitution, that ship has sailed.

[sailingaway]

Why? Is the jurisprudence of the 14th amendment that hard to understand?

Granted, a good argument can be made about "original intent" of that specific amendment, but lacking yet another amendment to the Constitution, that ship has sailed.

No, the current case law is old, and the 14th amendment doesn't use the words 'natural born'. The constitution requires 'natural born' citizenry to be president as well as having lived here for a period of time, to make sure the country couldn't be basically usurped by foreigners. In old dicta the Supreme Court did distinguish 'natural born' as being of two US citizen parents (and I don't even know if in that case they WOULD have had to be born here.) So there is something that hasn't been decided. But I think a lot of people think it just means 'Americans at birth' and I'd be kinda surprised if this court would find differently.

[RonPaulFanInGA]

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/cruz-draws-presidential-buzz-but-is-he-eligible-85873.html

As we all know, if Politico says it...

Anyway, this is stupid. He's been in the Senate for three frickin' months. Cruz has become the media's new DeMint, a guy for them to constantly say "conservatives want him for President!" when they're bored.

[QuickZ06]

I heavily suspect he's a neo-con in sheeps clothing, meant to destroy Rand in 2016.

Could be right.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

People are very aware of Cruz's birthright "problem" and also of Rubio's. Look on FreeRepublic and every thread about them and whether they have higher ambitions people are pointing this out.

The main defense for them seems to be since the courts have never ruled on it then it's okay

Both Rubio and Cruz are natural born citizens. The Constitution does not determine what natural born means, so it is left up to Congress to determine that. Rubio was born in the US and is therefore a natural and native born citizen. Cruz was born in Canada to an American mother and became a citizen at birth, therefore a natural born citizen. Those born abroad to American parents have been considered natural born since the first citizenship and naturalization law was passed in 1790.


"the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens"

http://i.imgur.com/LVSrUb2.png?1

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Both Rubio and Cruz are natural born citizens.

That's really not the point.

Who wants to vote for someone born in a foreign country? Like it or not, that's an effective weapon.

[Christian Liberty]

The supreme court I am sure would be happy to read 'natural born' to mean American at birth, at this point. It would be a change of dicta more than settled law because there just aren't many cases on it and our new supreme court, Roberts included, seem to be fairly marxist.

At least that Obamacare decision by Roberts was an incredible reach.

I don't know how many people in the country at this point think American at birth doesn't mean natural born. I was surprised to learn of the distinction, myself. My problem isn't as much with that but with dual nationality. I think you should have to pick one or it is a conflict of interest to vote, in a sense. I do believe in sovereignty. I think the German's have it right. At 18 you have to pick your country.
Isn't "Marxist" a strongword? I mean, I know they're "Left" but "Marxist?" Do they support the abolition of the state and of property rights? No.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

That's really not the point.

Who wants to vote for someone born in a foreign country? Like it or not, that's an effective weapon.

Rubio was born in Miami, though so that point is moot.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

I do believe in sovereignty. I think the German's have it right. At 18 you have to pick your country.

Not really. Germany allows you to keep a foreign citizenship if you acquired it at birth along with your German citizenship. Naturalized citizens are generally forced to renounce their previous citizenship before becoming a German citizen, though.

My first girlfriend was born in Australia to a German mother and she never had to renounce her German citizenship when she turned 18, even though she also has Australian citizenship. One of my best friends also has dual German-British citizenship.

The age for choosing is also 23, not 18.

[Christian Liberty]

Isn't "Marxist" a strongword? I mean, I know they're "Left" but "Marxist?" Do they support the abolition of the state and of property rights? No.

Just wanted to point out, they're still awful, but using "Marxist" where it doesn't apply, other than in jest, makes us look bad.

[itshappening]

Not really. Germany allows you to keep a foreign citizenship if you acquired it at birth along with your German citizenship. Naturalized citizens are generally forced to renounce their previous citizenship before becoming a German citizen, though.

My first girlfriend was born in Australia to a German mother and she never had to renounce her German citizenship when she turned 18, even though she also has Australian citizenship. One of my best friends also has dual German-British citizenship.

The age for choosing is also 23, not 18.

Can we meet your girlfriend? pics? :p

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Can we meet your girlfriend? pics? :p

She lives in Australia now. She's 5'2" with DD breasts and blond hair, if you're interested.

[RonPaulMall]

Cruz was born in Canada and is by birthright a citizen of Canada. If the children of immigrants on U.S. soil are by birthright American, what kind of leap of logic dictates that Cruz is natural-born U.S. and can be U.S. President?
.

What Canada considers him is besides the point. The Canadian Parliament could confer citizenship on you this very second if they so wished- that wouldn't change your citizenship status with respect to your native country. The US Government considered Cruz an American upon birth. He didn't have to do anything to become a citizen, he was born a citizen. Under plain language, that makes him a "natural born" citizen. Now, you might be able to conjure up some fancy argument for why "natural born" should mean something beyond the plain meaning of the words, but the reality is such an argument wouldn't get any traction so as a practical point it is moot.

Also, I don't think that many people are pushing for Cruz as President. Right now, it seems like he is mostly being mentioned as a VP candidate for Rand, which wouldn't be a bad choice at all.

[Brian4Liberty]

Just wanted to point out, they're still awful, but using "Marxist" where it doesn't apply, other than in jest, makes us look bad.

That talking point is well known. It's a misdirection and a cover-up. Marxism has evolved over time. The evolutionary descendents of Marxism are all around us. There are hardly any original doctrine Marxists that desire 100% government ownership in existence anymore. There haven't been for a long time. That experiment failed miserably and quickly every time it was attempted. The "believers" are now social justice disciples and people looking for free stuff. At the elite level, they are really crony corporatist socialists. Big government, paid for by the biggest corporations and debt, ruled by an interconnected group of cronies who benefit the most.

They still push most of the planks of the Marxist agenda, whether it is their true belief, or just a way to work and control the ignorant masses.

[abacabb]

Both Rubio and Cruz are natural born citizens. The Constitution does not determine what natural born means, so it is left up to Congress to determine that. Rubio was born in the US and is therefore a natural and native born citizen. Cruz was born in Canada to an American mother and became a citizen at birth, therefore a natural born citizen. Those born abroad to American parents have been considered natural born since the first citizenship and naturalization law was passed in 1790.



http://i.imgur.com/LVSrUb2.png?1
Awesome find. But, his father was not a u.s. citizen. Having "residency" does not fall under the law as you have to be the children of "citizens," plural.

That settles it for Cruz.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Awesome find. But, his father was not a u.s. citizen. Having "residency" does not fall under the law as you have to be the children of "citizens," plural.

That settles it for Cruz.

His mother was a citizen, which is how he became a citizen at birth. Anyone who is a citizen at birth is a natural born citizen.

[TaftFan]

Cruz qualifies via federal statute. This is very clear.

And no, I don't have a problem with a person born in Canada. Maybe Saudi Arabia or Russia, but I doubt he was planted with micorchips and designed to be part of a grand Canadian conspiracy.

[sailingaway]

Both Rubio and Cruz are natural born citizens. The Constitution does not determine what natural born means, so it is left up to Congress to determine that. Rubio was born in the US and is therefore a natural and native born citizen. Cruz was born in Canada to an American mother and became a citizen at birth, therefore a natural born citizen. Those born abroad to American parents have been considered natural born since the first citizenship and naturalization law was passed in 1790.



http://i.imgur.com/LVSrUb2.png?1

but that was read by a court in the 1800s to mean both parents had to be citizens.

that is what people bring up. You can be a citizen because your parents both were and never have lived here, is where the father resident part is.

but I suspect the SCOTUS won't be even that narrow.

[sailingaway]

His mother was a citizen, which is how he became a citizen at birth. Anyone who is a citizen at birth is a natural born citizen.

That isn't how the courts used to interpret it and that is precisely the issue. I think that is how the scotus will find though. But the old dicta saying both parents had to be US citizens when the child was born to be natural born is still currently unrefuted by case law.

[abacabb]

That isn't how the courts used to interpret it and that is precisely the issue. I think that is how the scotus will find though. But the old dicta saying both parents had to be US citizens when the child was born to be natural born is still currently unrefuted by case law.
The law says "citizen." With an "s" on the end. The mother being a citizen (no s on end) simply does not satisfy the law's requirement.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

but that was read by a court in the 1800s to mean both parents had to be citizens.

that is what people bring up. You can be a citizen because your parents both were and never have lived here, is where the father resident part is.

but I suspect the SCOTUS won't be even that narrow.

Actually back in the 1800s and even until just a few decades ago citizenship was passed solely by the father. The mother's citizenship played absolutely no role. In fact, British citizenship law until the late 40s said that if a British woman married a foreigner she lost citizenship and was considered a citizen of her husband's country.

[anaconda]

Cruz was born in Canada and is by birthright a citizen of Canada. If the children of immigrants on U.S. soil are by birthright American, what kind of leap of logic dictates that Cruz is natural-born U.S. and can be U.S. President?


Perhaps because Ted's parents were U.S. citizens visiting Canada on official U.S. work visas?

UPDATE: I guess Cruz's dad was not a citizen, at least at the time?

[sailingaway]

Perhaps because Ted's parents were U.S. citizens visiting Canada on official U.S. work visas?

that would do it....

[anaconda]

That's really not the point.

Who wants to vote for someone born in a foreign country? Like it or not, that's an effective weapon.

Why would I have a problem voting for someone born abroad to U.S. citizen parents? Why can't can't U.S. citizens travel abroad for business or government work without fretting that it might disqualify their newborn from the highest office?

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Perhaps because Ted's parents were U.S. citizens visiting Canada on official U.S. work visas?

Why would they have a US visa for working in Canada?

Anyway, I believe his parents were working in the oil industry. Calgary is Canada's oil and gas capital. He lived there until he was 4.

[abacabb]

Perhaps because Ted's parents were U.S. citizens visiting Canada on official U.S. work visas?
His father was not a U.S. citizen. He was a permanent resident. So, by that logic, an immigrant with a temporary work authorization fathering a child with a U.S. citizen in Saudi Arabia would be permissible Constitutionally...which it obviously is not.

If Cruz was born in another country that started with a C, like Cameroon or China, people would be up in arms. Canada is like America Jr. so everyone's like, "Whatever."

[sailingaway]

His father was not a U.S. citizen. He was a permanent resident. So, by that logic, an immigrant with a temporary work authorization fathering a child with a U.S. citizen in Saudi Arabia would be permissible Constitutionally...which it obviously is not.

If Cruz was born in another country that started with a C, like Cameroon or China, people would be up in arms. Canada is like America Jr. so everyone's like, "Whatever."


If his father was a permanent resident it goes back to whether the current SCOTUS will still find that natural born citizen requires more than 'born American citizen'. I'm not sure they will, regardless of history on that point.

[anaconda]

His father was not a U.S. citizen.

Does marrying a U.S. citizen only fast track you to some permanent residency status? Not citizenship?

[Smart3]

He wasn't born on U.S. soil, so he should never be President. Period.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Does marrying a U.S. citizen only fast track you to some permanent residency status? Not citizenship?

You can get a green card by being engaged or married to a US citizen, after that you still have to wait for citizenship.

[anaconda]

If his father was a permanent resident it goes back to whether the current SCOTUS will still find that natural born citizen requires more than 'born American citizen'. I'm not sure they will, regardless of history on that point.

If Obama's case had "no standing" with anyone at all who tried (even Alan Keyes who was on the same friggin ballot in 2008), why would the courts halt a Cruz candidacy?

[anaconda]

He wasn't born on U.S. soil, so he should never be President. Period.

What if the child is born during the U.S. citizen parents' vacation to Montreal? I'm sure this type of thing is not uncommon.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

What if the child is born during the U.S. citizen parents' vacation to Montreal? I'm sure this type of thing is not uncommon.

Not many women take vacations that late in a pregnancy. Airlines won't even take pregnant women past 7 months.

[anaconda]

Not many women take vacations that late in a pregnancy. Airlines won't even take pregnant women past 7 months.

I guess I'll read the whole thread and see if I can get educated. Sounds like this is all about location, location, location. Which seems weird since there's a thousand patriotic reasons a U.S. citizen might end up abroad and give birth before returning. Furthermore, I thought it was incumbent on each state to determine whether someone was "natural born." This was at issue with Obama, who's only U.S. citizen parent had not resided in the U.S. five years after age 16 when she gave birth, per Hawaii law at the time.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

What about a road trip?

Do you know how uncomfortable it is to ride in a car when you're 36 weeks pregnant? I don't, but do you?

[anaconda]

Do you know how uncomfortable it is to ride in a car when you're 36 weeks pregnant? I don't, but do you?

The hypothetical was merely for the purpose of understanding the relevant laws.

[anaconda]

According to this Ted is a"natural born citizen."

http://tucsoncitizen.com/arizona-lincoln-republican/2013/01/09/is-ted-cruz-a-natural-born-citizen/

[cindy25]

this is settled law

if Cruz's mother was an American citizen for 5 years at the time of his birth he is American by parentage.

George Romney was born in Mexico, John McCain in Panama

and lets not forget Justin Amish's parents were also immigrants.

fight Cruz on issues, not this stupidity

[dusman]

I'd agree, but I think there is some wisdom in the idea that you don't get to pick. Being born of American parents presumes some level of loyalty not equal to being born of multi-national parents and I mean that with as much sensitivity to the negative connotation as possible. I think we all believe there should be a high expectation of who is president and in this particular circumstance I like the stricter interpretation of "natural born" meaning having parents of U.S. citizenship.

If left to simply being born here, there is just too many opportunities to be infiltrated. I think the clause intended to address this factor.

[Smart3]

What if the child is born during the U.S. citizen parents' vacation to Montreal? I'm sure this type of thing is not uncommon.
How many women 8 months pregnant go to vacation in a foreign country?

[anaconda]

How many women 8 months pregnant go to vacation in a foreign country?

The point is, if the child in this hypothetical scenario could be classified as a natural-born citizen, then we could say unequivocally that being born abroad does not, in of itself, disqualify one from being a "natural-born" citizen. So I don't see the relevance of trying to quantify the number of 8 month pregnant women that may travel abroad and give birth.

[fr33]

How many women 8 months pregnant go to vacation in a foreign country?

Do you know how uncomfortable it is to ride in a car when you're 36 weeks pregnant? I don't, but do you?
Please try to keep in mind that not everyone has the luxury of being comfortable all the time and crossing borders does not always mean a vacation. Our laws should not be written to favor the practices of only the rich but for everyone.