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itshappening
03-17-2013, 11:34 AM
Democrats control 68/75 State House seats, 32/37 State Senate seats, 2 Democrat Congressman, 2 Democrat Senators and Lincoln Chafee (RINO) as Governor.

Now this....

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At precisely one second after midnight, on March 1, Woonsocket would experience its monthly financial windfall — nearly $2 million from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), formerly known as food stamps. Federal money would be electronically transferred to the broke residents of a nearly bankrupt town, where it would flow first into grocery stores and then on to food companies, employees and banks, beginning the monthly cycle that has helped Woonsocket survive.

Three years into an economic recovery, this is the lasting scar of collapse: a federal program that began as a last resort for a few million hungry people has grown into an economic lifeline for entire towns. Spending on SNAP has doubled in the past four years and tripled in the past decade, surpassing $78 billion last year. A record 47 million Americans receive the benefit — including 13,752 in Woonsocket, one-third of the town’s population, where the first of each month now reveals twin shortcomings of the U.S. economy:

So many people are forced to rely on government support.

The government is forced to support so many people.

The 1st is always circled on the office calendar at International Meat Market, where customers refer to the day in the familiar slang of a holiday. It is Check Day. Milk Day. Pay Day. Mother’s Day.

“Uncle Sam Day,” Pichardo said now, late on Feb. 28, as he watched new merchandise roll off the trucks. Out came 40 cases of Ramen Noodles. Out came 230 pounds of ground beef and 180 gallons of orange juice.

SNAP enrollment in Rhode Island had been rising for six years, up from 73,000 people to nearly 180,000, and now three-quarters of purchases at International Meat Market are paid for with Electronic Benefit Transfer (EBT) cards. Government money had in effect funded the truckloads of food at Pichardo’s dock . . . and the three part-time employees he had hired to unload it . . . and the walk-in freezer he had installed to store surplus product . . . and the electric bills he paid to run that freezer, at nearly $2,000 each month.

Pichardo’s profits from SNAP had also helped pay for International Meat Market itself, a 10-aisle store in a yellow building that he had bought and refurbished in 2010, when the rise in government spending persuaded him to expand out of a smaller market down the block.

Pichardo had placed a $10,000 product order to satisfy his diverse customers, half of them white, a quarter Hispanic, 15 percent African American, plus a dozen immigrant populations drawn to Woonsocket by the promise of cheap housing. He had ordered 150 pounds of the tenderloin steak favored by the newly poor, still clinging to old habits; and 200 cases of chicken gizzards for the inter-generationally poor, savvy enough to spot a deal at less than $2 a pound. He had bought pizza pockets for the working poor and plantains for the immigrant poor. He had stocked up on East African marinades, Spanish rice, Cuban snacks and Mexican fruit juice. The boxes piled up in the aisles and the whir of an electronic butcher’s knife reverberated from the back of the store.

Late on the 28th, a boyfriend and girlfriend arrived at Pichardo’s register with a small basket of food. “Finally! A customer,” Pichardo said, turning away from a Dominican League baseball game streaming on his computer. The last day of the month was always his slowest. The 1st was always his best, when he sometimes made 25 percent of his profits for the month. Pichardo rang up his last transaction of February: a gallon of milk, a box of pasta and a bag of discount cookies.

“That’s $5.28,” he said.

The boyfriend handed over his EBT card: “Sorry. Running low,” he said. “I only got $1.07 on there.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/food-stamps-put-rhode-island-town-on-monthly-boom-and-bust-cycle/2013/03/16/08ace07c-8ce1-11e2-b63f-f53fb9f2fcb4_print.html

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itshappening
03-17-2013, 11:42 AM
He's got $1 on his EBT card!!!

These people are going to starve when they get cut off.

What the hell is going on?

seapilot
03-17-2013, 11:45 AM
He's got $1 on his EBT card!!!

These people are going to starve when they get cut off.

What the hell is going on?

They wont get cut off, but the purchasing power is going to go to nothing.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 11:47 AM
Who cares. Whole swaths of people doing exactly what we expect them too. Don't you have some Rand groveling to do?

itshappening
03-17-2013, 11:49 AM
Who cares. Whole swaths of people doing exactly what we expect them too. Don't you have some Rand groveling to do?

Don't you care about the poor and needy? I do..

thoughtomator
03-17-2013, 11:53 AM
If you want a real eye-opener, show up at your local supermarket just before midnight on the last day of the month. I live in a wealthy area and even here there are folks with full shopping carts hanging out waiting for the clock to hit 12:00am so they can check out.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 11:54 AM
Don't you care about the poor and needy? I do..

Sounds like you're lampooning them. And no I don't care enough to steal or rob for them. Cut off ALL welfare.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 11:56 AM
You also pretend like the Republicans are going to do something about it. You should look at the Medicare overhaul in AZ. That is the republican party I've come to know and hate. "But we need the illegal and poor vote to get into office'. Boo-fucking-hoo.

This site is going through a schism and it seems there has been an exodus of intelligence.

itshappening
03-17-2013, 11:56 AM
Sounds like you're lampooning them. And no I don't care enough to steal or rob for them. Cut off ALL welfare.

I believe in charity and I'm not lampooning them.

Demigod
03-17-2013, 12:06 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/food-stamps-put-rhode-island-town-on-monthly-boom-and-bust-cycle/2013/03/16/08ace07c-8ce1-11e2-b63f-f53fb9f2fcb4_print.html

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Is this supposed to be a sad story?

They are not even poor by any standard.The funniest parts was when they explained how he had to walk to work for 1 MILE,that is like 20 -30 minutes of walking the most and how they had to pick whether to get snacks or orange juice,I mean how can they even leave like that.They are lower middle class in the worst case,by global standards they are middle class .

bolil
03-17-2013, 12:14 PM
So, why would the State wan't control over the food supply? That is a huge responsibility. If they plan on starving these people, why not just use a plague it would be more humane. Then again, I guess the nature of viruses' is unpredictable.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 12:44 PM
You also pretend like the Republicans are going to do something about it. You should look at the Medicare overhaul in AZ. That is the republican party I've come to know and hate. "But we need the illegal and poor vote to get into office'. Boo-fucking-hoo.

This site is going through a schism and it seems there has been an exodus of intelligence.

Does it show a lack of intelligence to say, yes, the welfare state has to go, but the first and most necessary step in that process is to clear the fedgov out of the way of small business so they can resurrect the economy? And it isn't best to take the other steps first, because if everyone starves between the time we cut them off and the time we make our new Roaring Twenties possible, there will be no one left to power that economy?

Because if it does, then Ron Paul himself is distinctly lacking in intelligence.

It's a fine line between being an ideological purist and engaging in 'let's paint the libertarians as heartless' trollery...

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 12:50 PM
Does it show a lack of intelligence to say, yes, the welfare state has to go, but the first and most necessary step in that process is to clear the fedgov out of the way of small business so they can resurrect the economy? And it isn't best to take the other steps first, because if everyone starves between the time we cut them off and the time we make our new Roaring Twenties possible, there will be no one left to power that economy?

Because if it does, then Ron Paul himself is distinctly lacking in intelligence.

It's a fine line between being an ideological purist and engaging in 'let's paint the libertarians as heartless' trollery...

You honestly believe at this point it matters. We're done and we can't pay for anymore in the future. We have to build our future with this in mind. Playing politics for the next few years as if were some saviors reminds me of GREENPEACE. If you like running up-hill to keep peace fine.

We all know government spending has never given us Roaring anything but war -- so I'm completely lost on that part of your reply. I will however note that by you saying giving people food will keep them from rioting is a tacit admission to calling them slaves -- DO YOU want slavery?

Keith and stuff
03-17-2013, 12:56 PM
I'm not really a fan of the title. On the other hand, it got me to read the story :(

Anti Federalist
03-17-2013, 12:56 PM
47 million.

That's 15 percent of the current population.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
03-17-2013, 01:00 PM
Three years into an economic recovery...


huh?

Origanalist
03-17-2013, 01:06 PM
I believe in charity and I'm not lampooning them.

Taking money from someone by force and giving it to another isn't charity. It's robbery.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 01:11 PM
You honestly believe at this point it matters. We're done and we can't pay for anymore in the future. We have to build our future with this in mind. Playing politics for the next few years as if were some saviors reminds me of GREENPEACE. If you like running up-hill to keep peace fine.

We all know government spending has never given us Roaring anything but war -- so I'm completely lost on that part of your reply. I will however note that by you saying giving people food will keep them from rioting is a tacit admission to calling them slaves -- DO YOU want slavery?

Yes, I honestly still believe people matter. I do. To paraphrase Will Rogers, this nation is bigger than Washington--and if you don't believe it, I'll show you a map!

I can't believe you don't see how analogous your comment is to this:


"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

We're running as the doctors who can save the patient, with the patient in this case being the U.S. economy. The Hippocratic Oath insists that a doctor's first rule is, 'Do no harm.' To that end, I say taking the band aid off of the hemophiliac long before you've threaded the needle and are ready to stitch him up is silly, stupid and ludicrous.

The federal government is using the fact that it's standing under the building with the safety nets to cover up the fact that it's the arsonist who set fire to the building in the first place. Now, if you want get the people in the building to agree that trusting the arsonists to put out the fire is stupid, and they should insist that your fire company kick the arsonists out and take over, you don't do it by promising that the first thing you'll do is take down the safety nets. There's a word for strategies like that. The word is 'stupid'.

We promise to restore a government of the people, by the people and for the people. The media portrays us as a bunch of wild eyed purists who are more interested in punishing the people for abandoning those principles than in restoring them for the people's benefit. Gee, I wonder how they're managing to get away with that bit of spin? Could it be that some of us are helping them do it?


Taking money from someone by force and giving it to another isn't charity. It's robbery.

Yes. Yes it is. But before you can replace such a system with genuine charity, you have to restore people back to a comfortable enough place that they actually have something to spare. How can anyone say that this is not clearly what we must strive to do first?

Origanalist
03-17-2013, 01:16 PM
Yes. Yes it is. But before you can replace such a system with genuine charity, you have to restore people back to a comfortable enough place that they actually have something to spare. How can anyone say that this is not clearly what we must strive to do first?

Who decides when we have reached that point?

matt0611
03-17-2013, 01:18 PM
Crazy, that town is right over the border, about 10 mins from where I live.

HOLLYWOOD
03-17-2013, 01:20 PM
Think the economy is getting better for the middle & poorer classes?

Statistics through December FY2013 here's the follow #s:

Increase of 240,000 new recipients first 3 months FY13
Increase of 130,000 new household first 3 months FY13
Record All-Time High Recipients on SNAP(Food Stamps)
Record All-Time High Households on SNAP(Food Stamps)

Cost of SNAP per month: ~$6 Billion

Source (USDA):http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/34snapmonthly.htm

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 01:26 PM
Who decides when we have reached that point?

Whoever is entrusted with ending the damaging policies and instituting something better. We want that to be us. If we are to be so entrusted, we had better at least appear to be worthy of that trust.

Ending corporate welfare is, to the vast majority of the people of this nation, far, far more immediate and important than ending food stamps. And I am in that majority.

speciallyblend
03-17-2013, 01:32 PM
working poor here, paycheck to paycheck for 6 years now and barely making it. No assistance. Though we could use the help, the illegals get it before americans can.

juliusaugustus
03-17-2013, 01:33 PM
And it isn't best to take the other steps first, because if everyone starves between the time we cut them off and the time we make our new Roaring Twenties possible, there will be no one left to power that economy?

You want another roaring twenties? The roaring twenties was a large credit bubble being inflated by the Federal Reserve. It was also the period when the government engaged in massive road building with the "good roads" program. Hardly some great libertarian period. The corporatist tax structure of the IRS through mortgage deductions encouraged home ownership through mortgage deductions and the oil industry was stimulated through depletion allowance created under Wilson. Herbert Hoover as secretary of commerce stimulated the Home industry
It was the Austrian economists who pointed out how it was unsustainable and would crash.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 01:45 PM
He's got $1 on his EBT card!!!

These people are going to starve when they get cut off.

What the hell is going on? <I believe in charity and I'm not lampooning them.>

No?

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 01:47 PM
You have to be one of the most mediocre butt-kissing posters on this forum. Seriously you're ruining it for the rest of us that are fucking tired of it. This is not randpaulforums. I have been here for a while and have only put one person one my ignore list. But damn man, everyday you seek to outdo yourself and suck up to winning an election so your leader can save you.

Make that two on ignore.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 01:50 PM
working poor here, paycheck to paycheck for 6 years now and barely making it. No assistance. Though we could use the help, the illegals get it before americans can.

*Sigh*

If you can be out competed by someone that doesn't speak your mother tongue and can hardly communicate with people around them; the problem isn't them.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 01:50 PM
Whoever is entrusted with ending the damaging policies and instituting something better. We want that to be us. If we are to be so entrusted, we had better at least appear to be worthy of that trust.

Ending corporate welfare is, to the vast majority of the people of this nation, far, far more immediate and important than ending food stamps. And I am in that majority.

Food subsidies to the corporations are another form of food stamps. Do you see the hypocrisy in that?

Origanalist
03-17-2013, 01:52 PM
Whoever is entrusted with ending the damaging policies and instituting something better. We want that to be us. If we are to be so entrusted, we had better at least appear to be worthy of that trust.

Ending corporate welfare is, to the vast majority of the people of this nation, far, far more immediate and important than ending food stamps. And I am in that majority.

The thread was about food stamps though. So where do "us" draw the line? When is it kosher to end government handouts to people who shouldn't get it taken from people who worked for it? Or worse yet, from future generations?

I will not argue the corporate welfare issue with you, there is no debating that for my part. But when do we quit allowing this dependency mentality to metastasize?

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 01:52 PM
Ron Paul said and I qoute "The best tax is no tax". The End!

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 01:54 PM
What's most ironic is how people say, "we can't drop these people on their asses", and then follow it up in another thread with "food stamps hold people down and keep them poor".

Which is it?

Origanalist
03-17-2013, 01:55 PM
*Sigh*

If you can be out competed by someone that doesn't speak your mother tongue and can hardly communicate with people around them; the problem isn't them.

Out competed for government handouts? I was under the impression specially blend did not take them but chose to support himself. What is your point?

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 01:56 PM
Food subsidies to the corporations are another form of food stamps. Do you see the hypocrisy in that?

Food subsidies to the corporations are why food stamps exist. If we could all afford to buy our own food, would we choose Monsanto crap? Or do so many buy it because it's EBT-approved? Do you not see the truth of that?

Corporations are not people. They should not have the same constitutional rights as people, they should not be able to shield the people within them from responsibility for their criminal acts by saying that those people were merely following corporate orders, and they should not have more representation in Washington than people do.

If you don't see the hypocricy in saying that corporations don't deserve to derive fewer benefits from government than people do, then you obviously don't believe in a government of the people, by the people and for the people. And if that's the case, I can't help you.


The thread was about food stamps though. So where do "us" draw the line? When is it kosher to end government handouts to people who shouldn't get it taken from people who worked for it? Or worse yet, from future generations?

I will not argue the corporate welfare issue with you, there is no debating that for my part. But when do we quit allowing this dependency mentality to metastasize?

The firemen generally pack up their safety nets after they have put the fire out. The problem, as I see it, is that the arsonists and the firemen are currently one and the same, and have no incentive to put the fire out.


What's most ironic is how people say, "we can't drop these people on their asses", and then follow it up in another thread with "food stamps hold people down and keep them poor".

Which is it?

If you were paying attention to what was said, rather than looking for opportunities to be inflammatory and rude, you'd realize that I do want to do away with it, I just don't want to start by doing away with it.

But then again, if you were paying attention to what anyone here was saying, you'd start with yourself. And if you started with yourself, you'd realize that you were flaming speciallyblend for being 'unable to compete' with people who bested him only by making it down to the welfare office well ahead of him. Which is not only obnoxious, but certainly doesn't help you portray yourself as the man of principle you pretend to be.


Out competed for government handouts? I was under the impression specially blend did not take them but chose to support himself. What is your point?

He seems to be frustrated that we won't let him discredit us all by letting him paint us as heartless just for the sin of associating with him, so he's settling for dividing us against ourselves.


You want another roaring twenties? The roaring twenties was a large credit bubble being inflated by the Federal Reserve. It was also the period when the government engaged in massive road building with the "good roads" program. Hardly some great libertarian period. The corporatist tax structure of the IRS through mortgage deductions encouraged home ownership through mortgage deductions and the oil industry was stimulated through depletion allowance created under Wilson. Herbert Hoover as secretary of commerce stimulated the Home industry
It was the Austrian economists who pointed out how it was unsustainable and would crash.

The Roaring Twenties were a decade long, and had a beginning, a middle and an end. In the beginning, there was rampant Wilsonian socialism, conceived by House and micromismanaged. In the end, there was Hoover in charge of more than one little, narrow aspect of American life. And in the middle, there was a Federal Reserve more frustrated by the fact that we were not yet completely off the old Gold Standard (and wouldn't be until 1971) than blowing the sorts of bubbles they've been blowing in the last thirty years.

The U.S. highway system was a minor thing compared to some of the stimuli we've seen of late. The homes and other things may have been financed through easy credit, but they were still tangible enough. And the Austrian economists you speak of were talking about Wall St. manipulation and gambling, not the free competition of builders and the creation of small businesses.

Oh, and for the record, it wasn't The Crash that caused the Great Depression. Wall Street likes to flatter itself that it's that powerful, but it isn't. It wasn't the Wall St. gamblers popping their own bubble that led to ten years of poverty, it was the Dust Bowl. Because the Breadbasket of the World is that powerful.

And that's why the EBT program and the Monsanto Reign at the Department of Agriculture and the UN's Agenda 21 are so focused on the Breadbasket of the World.

MelissaWV
03-17-2013, 01:59 PM
He's got $1 on his EBT card!!!

These people are going to starve when they get cut off.

What the hell is going on?

He had $1 on there because it was his "last purchase for February." That's what's left on there at the very end of the month. It might help you not freak out if you read the entire article.

JorgeStevenson
03-17-2013, 02:05 PM
Why are they worried about $3.80 for milk closeby vs. $3.10 for milk across town when there are huge savings they can be making by adjusting their extravagant lifestyles?

I have neither my own car nor a prepaid cellphone. It is comforting to know that my earnings are being stolen from me in order to fund these luxuries for others. I live in a 3rd world country in South America - my money is taken from me by the IRS to fund national defense (not using), SNAP (not using), roads (not using), FICA (not using), education (not using), etc. Matter of fact I can hardly think of a single government service that I AM using. Where is the article about me?

MelissaWV
03-17-2013, 02:12 PM
Why are they worried about $3.80 for milk closeby vs. $3.10 for milk across town when there are huge savings they can be making by adjusting their extravagant lifestyles?

I have neither my own car nor a prepaid cellphone. It is comforting to know that my earnings are being stolen from me in order to fund these luxuries for others. I live in a 3rd world country in South America - my money is taken from me by the IRS to fund national defense (not using), SNAP (not using), roads (not using), FICA (not using), education (not using), etc. Matter of fact I can hardly think of a single government service that I AM using. Where is the article about me?

Probably the same place the one about me is, or any number of people in the "sweet spot" for taxation vs. use. Medicare and SS will be gone or unrecognizable by the time I reach my 60s, but I'm still paying in. The public schools are godawful and so lop-sided in their costs that I live in one state and am partially subsidizing the dumbing down of children in another state, but I'm still paying in. I was on EBT for a month five years ago, and was so embarrassed that I decided to go another route, but somehow I'm still paying in. The TSA, the NSA, the FBI, the CIA, the Army-Navy-Marines-Airforce-CoastGuard-NationalGuard ... still paying in. Salaries for people who can't decide whether that's their ass or a hole in the ground? Still paying in. Most of the "Government services" that I "use" are supposed to be covered by other taxes (for example roads are supposed to be funded by gasoline taxes and all those fees one pays related to legally using one's car on the roads).

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 02:16 PM
Out competed for government handouts? I was under the impression specially blend did not take them but chose to support himself. What is your point?

I'm 28 white, tile/flooring installer living in Phoenix,AZ the epicenter of illegal Mexicans. I make twice as much as them(in general) because I am way more talented and in better shape. It also helps to speak their language as well. Most Americans need to figure out Mexicans are generally extremely conservative and after one generation will actually tend to dislike immigrants like themselves.LOL

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 02:18 PM
Probably the same place the one about me is, or any number of people in the "sweet spot" for taxation vs. use. Medicare and SS will be gone or unrecognizable by the time I reach my 60s, but I'm still paying in. The public schools are godawful and so lop-sided in their costs that I live in one state and am partially subsidizing the dumbing down of children in another state, but I'm still paying in. I was on EBT for a month five years ago, and was so embarrassed that I decided to go another route, but somehow I'm still paying in. The TSA, the NSA, the FBI, the CIA, the Army-Navy-Marines-Airforce-CoastGuard-NationalGuard ... still paying in. Salaries for people who can't decide whether that's their ass or a hole in the ground? Still paying in. Most of the "Government services" that I "use" are supposed to be covered by other taxes (for example roads are supposed to be funded by gasoline taxes and all those fees one pays related to legally using one's car on the roads).

This.

You dig a hole, you throw people in, then you decide digging the hole wasn't the smartest thing you ever did. So do you start by refilling the hole? Or do you help people out of the hole before you commence filling it back in?

If we're to succeed, we have to be careful not to be, or even to appear to be, a cure worse than the disease. That, talkingpointes, is a talking point you would do well to adopt as your own.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 02:19 PM
Food subsidies to the corporations are why food stamps exist. If we could all afford to buy our own food, would we choose Monsanto crap? Or do so many buy it because it's EBT-approved? Do you not see the truth of that?

The dollar menus are basically the state going half-in on your purchase. Do you not see the truth in that. It's for another class. You started off by saying it would ruin peoples lives by taking them off it it and now are moving the goal post.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 02:22 PM
The dollar menus are basically the state going half-in on your purchase. Do you not see the truth in that. It's for another class. You started off by saying it would ruin peoples lives by taking them off it it and now are moving the goal post.

I do wish to move the goal posts. But first I think it's important to repeal the rule that only members of the corporate team are allowed to touch the football. Until that happens, it doesn't matter where the fuck the goalposts are. Can you not see that? Or are you too wrapped up in using your principles as an excuse for flaming people on the internet to give a damn?

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 02:30 PM
I do wish to move the goal posts. But first I think it's important to repeal the rule that only members of the corporate team are allowed to touch the football. Until that happens, it doesn't matter where the fuck the goalposts are. Can you not see that? Or are you too wrapped up in using your principles as an excuse for flaming people on the internet to give a damn?

I agree but you can't have a power vacuum and not expect it to be filled by the worst parts of society. We need to seriously review what it is that is going to work. Do you believe by filling congress with people like "us" that is either worth doing or going to achieve what we want. I don't think so.

Ron in my eyes now ran self-empower people, to make them look themselves in the mirror and have some pride. Not to concede and say, "ok, to keep peace we have to allow a little rape". No. Ron was clear on principles and that is what defined him at the end of the day.

Are you going to concede that your willing to gamble our countries future with the money of our unborn children and in the hopes of making a big tent party that is inclusive to people that even want to kill others ?

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 02:37 PM
I agree but you can't have a power vacuum and not expect it to be filled by the worst parts of society. We need to seriously review what it is that is going to work. Do you believe by filling congress with people like "us" that is either worth doing or going to achieve what we want. I don't think so.

Ron in my eyes now ran self-empower people, to make them look themselves in the mirror and have some pride. Not to concede and say, "ok, to keep peace we have to allow a little rape". No. Ron was clear on principles and that is what defined him at the end of the day.

Are you going to concede that your willing to gamble our countries future with the money of our unborn children and in the hopes of making a big tent party that is inclusive to people that even want to kill others ?

No, because your attempts to say my unwillingness to end some program before we fix the economy and set up a system where people actually can operate without a safety net do not mean that I'm unwilling to end that program ever. And because I'm convinced the dollar will be hyperinflated into nothing, at which point it will be used to pay off the debt while we try to salvage our nation from the ashes.

Now. Are you willing to admit that Ron Paul said himself that he was unwilling to end Social Security for those who were forced to pay into it all their lives and leave them hanging? Or would you rather figure out a way to stuff that into your hard and inflexible principles?

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 02:48 PM
No, because your attempts to say my unwillingness to end some program before we fix the economy and set up a system where people actually can operate without a safety net do not mean that I'm unwilling to end that program ever. And because I'm convinced the dollar will be hyperinflated into nothing, at which point it will be used to pay off the debt while we try to salvage our nation from the ashes.

Now. Are you willing to admit that Ron Paul said himself that he was unwilling to end Social Security for those who were forced to pay into it all their lives and leave them hanging? Or would you rather figure out a way to stuff that into your hard and inflexible principles?

Wow, either I have a really bad comprehension problem, or you are literally holding two hypocritical stances and are dancing around them. If Ron had his way he was going to allow the PAYERS to leave SS. What do you think would happen if that were implemented don't play ignorant.

Do you think Food stamps or subsidies are useful? Or do you believe they make people lazy and apathetic?

You can't hold both views and say that we need to keep them in place. That's simply put, retarded.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 03:02 PM
Wow, either I have a really bad comprehension problem, or you are literally holding two hypocritical stances and are dancing around them. If Ron had his way he was going to allow the PAYERS to leave SS. What do you think would happen if that were implemented don't play ignorant.

Do you think Food stamps or subsidies are useful? Or do you believe they make people lazy and apathetic?

You can't hold both views and say that we need to keep them in place. That's simply put, retarded.

If Ron Paul's position on SSI was too nuanced for you to wrap your rigid brain around, you could just say so. His intention was to find other ways--like restoring the Trust Fund which Dubya raided, for starters--to keep benefits going for everyone who had been forced to pay into it for decades, and were too old to start over now. And he specifically said that was his plan because he couldn't see leaving these people in the dirt. Read it and weep.

And me saying that it all has to go, but you can't get rid of it all overnight, so we should be careful what we get rid of first is no different than Rand Paul saying all foreign military aid has to go, but we shouldn't start with Israel's. But, of course, if you're bound and determined to ensure the libertarian movement has no political viability, and the sole remaining purpose of your sad existence is to trash Rand Paul, you won't admit that idea has any merit either. But the fact remains that I represented Ron Paul's position more accurately than you did, and my position is more closely aligned with it than yours is.

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 03:08 PM
If Ron Paul's position on SSI was too nuanced for you to wrap your rigid brain around, you could just say so. His intention was to find other ways--like restoring the Trust Fund which Dubya raided, for starters--to keep benefits going for everyone who had been forced to pay into it for decades, and were too old to start over now. And he specifically said that was his plan because he couldn't see leaving these people in the dirt. Read it and weep.

And me saying that it all has to go, but you can't get rid of it all overnight, so we should be careful what we get rid of first is no different than Rand Paul saying all foreign military aid has to go, but we shouldn't start with Israel's. But, of course, if you're bound and determined to ensure the libertarian movement has no political viability, and the sole remaining purpose of your sad existence is to trash Rand Paul, you won't admit that idea has any merit either. But the fact remains that I represented Ron Paul's position more accurately than you did, and my position is more closely aligned with it than yours is.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/maniswil1/ss.jpg

talkingpointes
03-17-2013, 03:08 PM
Would you like to keep going ?

heavenlyboy34
03-17-2013, 03:09 PM
Interesting thread. I have a prediction WRT what would happen if SNAP was cut. There would be a massive influx of people on the "disabled" role getting SSI disability. IMHO, the various state level DES (department of economic security for those who don't know your welfare state acronyms) should audit recipients every 6-12 months or so to make sure they're in real need of welfare. /ramble

itshappening
03-17-2013, 03:12 PM
Taking money from someone by force and giving it to another isn't charity. It's robbery.

I don't disagree with you. Just because I believe in private charity and helping the poor and needy doesn't mean I endorse welfare

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 03:14 PM
Would you like to keep going ?

*sigh*

It really isn't my job to cure you of your ignorance. But, you know, I can give you the means to cure it yourself...

http://www.ronpaul.com/2012-06-21/ron-paul-im-the-best-protector-of-social-security-ill-cut-overseas-spending-instead/


Interesting thread. I have a prediction WRT what would happen if SNAP was cut. There would be a massive influx of people on the "disabled" role getting SSI disability. IMHO, the various state level DES (department of economic security for those who don't know your welfare state acronyms) should audit recipients every 6-12 months or so to make sure they're in real need of welfare. /ramble

That would be your state welfare acronym, hb. We don't all live in Arizona. Some of us live in states with DHSes.

Demigod
03-17-2013, 03:18 PM
This people are not poor PERIOD.Buying meat,orange juice,having cellphones and cars is not poor.All those handouts are luxury handouts.

The guy who was asking on this forum for someone to donate food to him because he had nothing to eat and no money left that is poor.The guy who lived in a tent and used a library computer to log onto the forum that guy is poor.This people want to live beyond their means.

itshappening
03-17-2013, 03:19 PM
Interesting thread. I have a prediction WRT what would happen if SNAP was cut. There would be a massive influx of people on the "disabled" role getting SSI disability. IMHO, the various state level DES (department of economic security for those who don't know your welfare state acronyms) should audit recipients every 6-12 months or so to make sure they're in real need of welfare. /ramble

It's going to be a mess isn't it ?

More over, what politician will ever get elected promising to cut 50 million people off their food stamps? That's a huge block ready to come out and vote Democrat for eternity... therefore it's just going to collapse under its own weight and it will be ugly.

Demigod
03-17-2013, 03:22 PM
It's going to be a mess isn't it ?

More over, what politician will ever get elected promising to cut 50 million people off their food stamps? That's a huge block ready to come out and vote Democrat for eternity... therefore it's just going to collapse under its own weight and it will be ugly.

Even if he gets elected the day he cuts it,he would lose control over vast parts of the country and it would only end with extremists taking the power with empty promises.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 03:27 PM
Even if he gets elected the day he cuts it,he would lose control over vast parts of the country and it would only end with extremists taking the power with empty promises.

Sounds like what talkingpointes wants. His favorite talkingpointe seems to be, 'I told you so.' If we get power in time to stave off the coming collapse, however, that would certainly rob him of it.

Demigod
03-17-2013, 03:38 PM
Sounds like what talkingpointes wants. His favorite talkingpointe seems to be, 'I told you so.' If we get power in time to stave off the coming collapse, however, that would certainly rob him of it.

There is no staving the collapse you can only prepare in such a manner to save as much as you can.Every empire in the history of man kind has ended in the same way and so will the USA,the EU and all the empires that come after them.There is no such thing as Too Big to Fail when empires are at stake.The USA actually sucks as an empire,it could not even hold on to control for 50 years.

Everything that the USA is doing now has been by every other empire in history.Socialism is not something new,it is just a new name on an old tradition of corruption and greed.

oyarde
03-17-2013, 03:38 PM
Probably the same place the one about me is, or any number of people in the "sweet spot" for taxation vs. use. Medicare and SS will be gone or unrecognizable by the time I reach my 60s, but I'm still paying in. The public schools are godawful and so lop-sided in their costs that I live in one state and am partially subsidizing the dumbing down of children in another state, but I'm still paying in. I was on EBT for a month five years ago, and was so embarrassed that I decided to go another route, but somehow I'm still paying in. The TSA, the NSA, the FBI, the CIA, the Army-Navy-Marines-Airforce-CoastGuard-NationalGuard ... still paying in. Salaries for people who can't decide whether that's their ass or a hole in the ground? Still paying in. Most of the "Government services" that I "use" are supposed to be covered by other taxes (for example roads are supposed to be funded by gasoline taxes and all those fees one pays related to legally using one's car on the roads).

Yep , I use roads and the post office, all of which I overpay for.That is it.Rest are just forced theft for gifts for others.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 03:40 PM
There is no staving the collapse you can only prepare in such a manner to save as much as you can.Every empire in the history of man kind has ended in the same way and so will the USA,the EU and all the empires that come after them.There is no such thing as Too Big to Fail when empires are at stake.The USA actually sucks as an empire,it could not even hold on to control for a 50 years.

Everything that the USA is doing now has been by every other empire in history.Socialism is not something new,it is just a new name on an old tradition of corruption and greed.

I'm not interested in staving off the collapse of the Empire; I welcome it. I'm not interested in staving off the collapse of the FRN, either. That will be tough, but I welcome it too.

I'm only interested in staving off the collapse of the United States. And I think, though all the rest falls, it can stand.

oyarde
03-17-2013, 03:45 PM
The Fed govt has zero role in food . I support private , volunteer charities.

Demigod
03-17-2013, 03:46 PM
I'm not interested in staving off the collapse of the Empire; I welcome it. I'm not interested in staving off the collapse of the FRN, either. That will be tough, but I welcome it too.

I'm only interested in staving off the collapse of the United States. And I think, though all the rest falls, it can stand.

I had my share of collapse in the 90`s so I hope I can just live out my days before the next collapsing and it will not spread to where I live although I can hardly see that kind of a situation.

Origanalist
03-17-2013, 03:54 PM
I don't disagree with you. Just because I believe in private charity and helping the poor and needy doesn't mean I endorse welfare

Then I misunderstood your post. And we agree.
Just because I believe in private charity and helping the poor and needy doesn't mean I endorse welfare

HOLLYWOOD
03-17-2013, 04:19 PM
working poor here, paycheck to paycheck for 6 years now and barely making it. No assistance. Though we could use the help, the illegals get it before americans can.It so unfortunate. You won't like the new illegal alien campaign/commercials airing on the Marxist corporate media channels (ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC, MSNBC) for free healthcare .

The final road to serfdom form the .gov game plan, is all in getting citizens to vote for via the 'free assistance' or "hooked" on whatever program they need to survive. This is how they buy votes, either immediately, but mostly down the road. The numbers per month are astonishing.


Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals Process
http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/Static_files/2012-1116%20DACA%20Monthly%20Report.pdf

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) is a benefit given by the Obama Administration
https://dacafacts.com/what-we-know-and-dont-know

Over 50,000 Illegal Aliens Received Amnesty, Work Permits under Obama's DACA Program
https://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/november-19-2012/over-50000-illegal-aliens-received-amnesty-work-permits-under-obamas-daca-prog

speciallyblend
03-17-2013, 06:25 PM
*Sigh*

If you can be out competed by someone that doesn't speak your mother tongue and can hardly communicate with people around them; the problem isn't them.

you are clueless, sigh! and should stfu!

cindy25
03-17-2013, 07:26 PM
with so many dependent on the government how can Rand beat Hillary/Michelle/Booker ?

itshappening
03-17-2013, 07:35 PM
with so many dependent on the government how can Rand beat Hillary/Michelle/Booker ?

You just have to hope they get fed up and want jobs instead which by 2016 they might be...

Things can change a lot in a few years.

Obamacare is going to wreck the economy even more and hits in 2014.

XTreat
03-17-2013, 09:08 PM
Sounds like what talkingpointes wants. His favorite talkingpointe seems to be, 'I told you so.' If we get power in time to stave off the coming collapse, however, that would certainly rob him of it.

There is no political solution to the coming collapse. I support Rand and the efforts of those who are trying because I think it will save life and property to a degree in the meantime, most probably by preventing another war, but I am pretty sure the crash is coming no matter what.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 09:14 PM
There is no political solution to the coming collapse. I support Rand and the efforts of those who are trying because I think it will save life and property to a degree in the meantime, most probably by preventing another war, but I am pretty sure the crash is coming no matter what.

I apologize for not making myself more clear. The dollar will collapse. The Empire will fall. But this nation can survive these things. It has survived worse.

What will do this nation in is if the powers that be are able to use this engineered crash to either get the American people behind UN governance and IMF currency, or to clamp us down in the throes of martial law long enough for them to sell Law and Order Security in the form of totalitarianism. And regardless of how nasty it gets, the solution to that problem will ultimately be political. Look at the American Revolution. There was bloodshed, but in the end the solution was still political in nature.

I'd just as soon avoid the bloodshed part. But that really isn't up to us. We're unlikely to be dumb enough to start it. I just hope we can convince them that we're smart enough to be able to finish it.

MRK
03-17-2013, 09:42 PM
This people are not poor PERIOD.Buying meat,orange juice,having cellphones and cars is not poor.All those handouts are luxury handouts.


Thank you. When I was poor you better believe I was buying the cheapest of the cheap. Certainly not oranges diluted with water priced at water-shipping weight, or meat that was grown with 10 times the energy cost of its nutrient equivalent in vegetables. I spent $75 a month on food when a single person in my state at the time was getting $200 on SNAP.

Food stamps are beyond broken and the vast majority of people in this country have never even considered this and would not even entertain the thought if it was proposed to them.

cindy25
03-17-2013, 09:43 PM
I am sure its not just Rhode Island; most states have towns and cities with similar dependency (and they are not all blue states)

osan
03-17-2013, 09:50 PM
Yes, I honestly still believe people matter.

Some do. Some do not. It depends on one's perspective.

I for one give not a whit of shit for those who would see me consumed for the sake of getting freebies on my nickel. They can literally die for all I care. I owe them nothing and if they try to approach me otherwise, I don't give a rat's rosey how bad their circumstances may be - I will most literally walk the other way and leave them to their fates. Ask me nicely and I may offer you the shirt off my back. Dictate to me and you will be shown the sphincter. This goes for anyone you care to name.


But before you can replace such a system with genuine charity, you have to restore people back to a comfortable enough place that they actually have something to spare. How can anyone say that this is not clearly what we must strive to do first?

This is true only if you want to avoid significant bloodshed. I am not convinced that such avoidance is of necessity a good thing. For my dollar not all people merit survival for the very same reasons the man who threatens me with bodily harm or death merits it not. I would consider the mass killing of those who would use violence against the rest to get what they want, be it money, power, Big Macs, what have you, acts of self defense by the rest against those seeking to violate them as stated.

Let us be very clear on that last bit: violation of my rights places me in a morally superior position to the violator, who by virtue of his attempt at violation has so very literally waived his right to live another moment.

acptulsa
03-17-2013, 10:06 PM
Let us be very clear on that last bit: violation of my rights places me in a morally superior position to the violator, who by virtue of his attempt at violation has so very literally waived his right to live another moment.

The soldier who violates the Posse Comitatus Act or the looter who gets tired of waiting for Washington to loot you and give to him and decides to cut out the middleman have waived their right. Fair enough. We will call their bluff and not be bluffing. But we don't need to go out of our way to bring this thing to a head. We need them to do it, or better still, to back down. Why? Simple.


"There is one thing in common with all revolutions (in fact, they are pretty much like wars in that respect), nobody ever knows what they are fighting about."--Will Rogers


'There is one rule that works in every calamity be it pestilence, war or famine, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The poor even help arrange it.'--Will Rogers

The less shit goes down, the better a position we're in when the dust settles. Once the bloodshed starts, reason, and even principle, stand too good a chance of going out the window.

Why do you think they allowed 9/11 to go down (and regardless of who orchestrated it, the government has admitted they had enough information to stop it--you can believe their claims of incompetence if you wish, I don't)? Do you think they'd have ever gotten the PATRIOT Act passed without the ensuing Freedom Fries hysteria?

No, my friend. I firmly believe that whoever fires the first shot will lose this war. Outrage is a wonderful and terrible thing. We want it all on our side.

supermario21
03-17-2013, 10:14 PM
No wonder Lincoln Chafee is arguing that marriage equality is an economic stimulus...he needs it in his state.

kathy88
03-18-2013, 04:09 AM
Interesting thread. I have a prediction WRT what would happen if SNAP was cut. There would be a massive influx of people on the "disabled" role getting SSI disability. IMHO, the various state level DES (department of economic security for those who don't know your welfare state acronyms) should audit recipients every 6-12 months or so to make sure they're in real need of welfare. /ramble

It's very difficult to do that because there is so much dishonesty on the applications. This is especially problematic with single mothers, who have a working man living with them, but don't put them on the application, and so qualify. I think there's more abuse of the system than honest, needy people. And in my experience, honest, needy people will get charity elsewhere.

tod evans
03-18-2013, 04:43 AM
This just proves once again that government is the problem not the solution.

The article breaking down the free-stuff recipients by race leads me to raise, not one, but both eyebrows in skepticism.

What isn't pointed out is the number of government employees who are "gainfully employed" distributing this free-stuff...

I've gotta wonder how much longer "our government" will be able to feed/cloth and house nonworking voters....

kathy88
03-18-2013, 04:52 AM
This just proves once again that government is the problem not the solution.

The article breaking down the free-stuff recipients by race leads me to raise, not one, but both eyebrows in skepticism.

What isn't pointed out is the number of government employees who are "gainfully employed" distributing this free-stuff...

I've gotta wonder how much longer "our government" will be able to feed/cloth and house nonworking voters....



QFT