Joe Biden's Shotgun Advice Could Land Jill Biden in Jail

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/02/20/joe-biden-shotgun-advice-could-land-jill-biden-in-jail

Felony aggravated menacing, reckless endangering charges could result from shooting gun in air

Vice President Joe Biden might want to have a talk with his son, Delaware Attorney General Beau Biden, before he makes another public statement about guns.

In a Facebook "chat" Tuesday, the vice president said that he had advised his wife, Jill, to fire a shotgun in the air from their Delaware home's porch if she was concerned for her safety.

"I said, 'Jill, if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house,'" Biden said.

"You don't need an AR-15—it's harder to aim," he added, "it's harder to use, and in fact you don't need 30 rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun! Buy a shotgun!"

However, Delaware law would likely make his suggestion illegal—unless the shots were fired in self-defense in a truly life-threatening situation.

A sergeant with the Wilmington, Del., police department explained to U.S. News that city residents are not allowed to fire guns on their property.

The sergeant, who preferred not to be identified, said that Wilmington residents are also not allowed to shoot trespassers. "On your property you can't just shoot someone," he said. "You have to really feel that your life is being threatened."

Defense attorney John Garey—a former Delaware deputy attorney general—agreed, and added that several criminal charges might result if Jill Biden took her husband's advice.

"In Delaware you have to be in fear of your life to use deadly force," Garey said. "There's nothing based on his scenario alone" indicating a reason to fear imminent death, he noted.

Garey said that under Biden's scenario, Jill Biden could be charged with aggravated menacing, a felony, and reckless endangering in the first degree.

"You cannot use deadly force to protect property" in Delaware, added Garey.

"It is not uncommon" for people to be charged with crimes under similar circumstances, he said. "I've seen cases where lawful citizens have used guns outside their homes and they end up arrested."

Rob Wiltbank, a gun rights advocate who founded Delaware Open Carry in 2008, told U.S. News he agrees with the vice president that a shotgun would be good for home protection, but he was also troubled by the hypothetical.

"It would be incredibly irresponsible of a gun owner to blindly discharge a firearm into the air," said Wiltbank. "What goes up, must come down and this specific behavior has been the cause of many negligent homicides over the years."

Tom Shellenberger, a lawyer who serves as a spokesman for the Delaware State Sportsmen's Association, told U.S. News that Biden's security tip was "the worst type of advice."

"I am a member of the Delaware Bar, as is Vice President Biden," noted Shellenberger. "There are a number of statutory restrictions that could be violated by shooting a shotgun 'off the porch.'"

In addition to felony charges, Shellenberger cited the "Discharge of a firearm within 15 yards of a road (7 Del.C. § 719), a misdemeanor," and "Violation of the residential dwelling safety zone as set forth in 7 Del.C. § 723, also a misdemeanor."

"Beyond the potential criminal liability, it is simply bad advice," added Shellenberger. "Not only does blasting blindly away put innocent persons at risk, it also tells the bad guys where you are and that you are armed. In most circumstances, it might be better if that comes as a surprise to the bad guys."

The Bidens live at 1209 Barley Mill Rd. in Wilmington, according to official candidate information forms distributed in 2012 and according to real estate website Zillow.

A satellite image of the home on Google Maps, which features a scale tool, indicates that the nearest neighbor's house is approximately 100 feet away. Further away, on the other side of the home, there is a school with outside sports facilities.

http://www.usnews.com/dbimages/master/38532/FE_DA_0220_Biden_House.jpg

U.S. News contacted the Delaware Attorney General's office for clarification on state law, but a spokesman for the office merely indicated that it is legal for residents to keep a shotgun in their homes.

In December, Biden was selected by President Barack Obama to lead a task force on establishing new federal gun control laws. In January, Biden presented Obama will proposals including limiting the bullet capacity of gun magazines and establishing universal background checks for all gun purchases.

-t

[Kotin]

"you cannot use deadly force to protect property"

fuck you.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

"I said, 'Jill, if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here, walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house,'" Biden said.

lol. That's so stupid.

"Jill, if there's ever a problem, fire your only two shots in the air."

[Mini-Me]

lol. That's so stupid.

"Jill, if there's ever a problem, fire your only two shots in the air."

"...where they will come down at the same speed and hit God knows who or what." ;)

[A Son of Liberty]

"...where they will come down at the same speed and hit God knows who or what." ;)

Technicality: the shot will not come back down at the same speed at which it went up.

[Mini-Me]

Technicality: the shot will not come back down at the same speed at which it went up.

I suppose you're right: Thanks to air resistance, the terminal velocity from a freefall would be lower along every axis than the muzzle velocity after a gunshot...and most shots in the air will be at an angle where much of the movement is horizontal anyway. If you shoot straight up in the air though, do you know whether it would come back down at a speed fast enough to be dangerous?

[dannno]

If you shoot straight up in the air though, do you know whether it would come back down at a speed fast enough to be dangerous?

Dangerous to what? A tile roof, a car hood or a nude sun bather?

[kcchiefs6465]

I suppose you're right: Thanks to air resistance, the terminal velocity from a freefall would be lower along every axis than the muzzle velocity after a gunshot...and most shots in the air will be at an angle where much of the movement is horizontal anyway. If you shoot straight up in the air though, do you know whether it would come back down at a speed fast enough to be dangerous?
Firing a gun straight into the air is not that dangerous. While it can hit someone on the head and do some damage it is generally not life threatening. Firing a gun upwards at a trajectory is as dangerous as firing a gun point blank towards something. The bullet will still have enough velocity to do serious damage if it hits something.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Technicality: the shot will not come back down at the same speed at which it went up.


Dangerous to what? A tile roof, a car hood or a nude sun bather?


Look it up. Bullets fired in the air come down eventually. If you need to fire a bullet at nothing, shoot it into the dirt. Familiar with the term "backstop?" People have been seriously hurt that way. Why risk it when you are just shooting to make noise?

[TheGrinch]

I wouldn't think that a shotgun, even with buckshot would be nearly as dangerous as firing a big slug from a rifle or pistol would be, but I could be wrong...

Regardless, it's likely to be much safer firing into the ground if you're not prepared to shoot at them in a life threatening situation, assuming it's not hard like concrete where it can ricochet.... Though I'm still of the mind that you don't shoot at all if you don't intend to hit the target.

[kcchiefs6465]

I wouldn't think that a shotgun, even with buckshot would be nearly as dangerous as firing a big slug from a rifle or pistol would be, but I could be wrong...

Regardless, it's likely to be much safer firing into the ground, assuming it's not hard like concrete where it can ricochet.
You are correct.

[kcchiefs6465]

Look it up. Bullets fired in the air come down eventually. If you need to fire a bullet at nothing, shoot it into the dirt. Familiar with the term "backstop?" People have been seriously hurt that way. Why risk it when you are just shooting to make noise?
Of course you shouldn't shoot into the air on any circumstances. Firing a bullet straight into the air is not that dangerous though. The bullet tumbles and loses momentum. You might get a little knot on your head if on the off chance it actually hits you. Firing a bullet at an angle into the air is very dangerous. The round doesn't tumble and keeps it's spin. If it hits someone it can kill them. A famous case of this happening was the 'Battle of Los Angeles' where a UFO/s triggered an alert that the Japanese were invading. Anti aircraft guns fired some 2,000 rounds at the object. IIRC, 6 people were killed.

[TheGrinch]

You are correct.

Since you didn't see the edit, even better advice:


Though I'm still of the mind that you don't shoot at all if you don't intend to hit the target.

Buy an airhorn or mace if you're not prepared to use the firearm.

[kcchiefs6465]

Since you didn't see the edit, even better advice:



Buy an airhorn or mace if you're not prepared to use the firearm.
Amen. I'm sure you remember the woman who got 20 years for taking Joe's advice. The man clearly doesn't know shit about the law or firearms.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Of course you shouldn't shoot into the air on any circumstances. Firing a bullet straight into the air is not that dangerous though. The bullet tumbles and loses momentum. You might get a little knot on your head if on the off chance it actually hits you.


Not true.

Look it up yourself. At what height are you comfortable with someone dropping a piece of lead on your head?

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Not true.

Look it up yourself. At what height are you comfortable with someone dropping a piece of lead on your head?

Or if you want to calculate a parabola, we could go with that too.

[Anti Federalist]

Silly story is silly.

As a member of the ruling class, nothing would happen to Jill Biden in this situation.

Woe betide one of us Mundanes if we try it though.

[kcchiefs6465]

Not true.

Look it up yourself. At what height are you comfortable with someone dropping a piece of lead on your head?
The bullet tumbles. It loses momentum. I would not be comfortable with anyone shooting a gun straight into the air [ | ] and the bullet coming down and hitting me. I would probably get a knot and maybe a headache. I have looked it up. Mythbusters also did some pretty extensive experiments on it.

Firing a bullet like this / [or even less of an angle] can be deadly. Firing a bullet like this | is not that dangerous. Though neither should be done in any circumstance.

[TheGrinch]

The bullet tumbles. It loses momentum. I would not be comfortable with anyone shooting a gun straight into the air [ | ] and the bullet coming down and hitting me. I would probably get a knot and maybe a headache. I have looked it up. Mythbusters also did some pretty extensive experiments on it.

Firing a bullet like this / [or even less of an angle] can be deadly. Firing a bullet like this | is not that dangerous. Though neither should be done in any circumstance.

Also in this case it's a shotgun load, though reminding myself how large buckshot loads are, it still doesn't make me really comfortable for those to come raining down:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/images3/e91-4.jpg

A shotgun has much less traveling or stopping power than a bullet though, so would this size load be that dangerous?

[A Son of Liberty]

The bullet tumbles. It loses momentum. I would not be comfortable with anyone shooting a gun straight into the air [ | ] and the bullet coming down and hitting me. I would probably get a knot and maybe a headache. I have looked it up. Mythbusters also did some pretty extensive experiments on it.

Firing a bullet like this / [or even less of an angle] can be deadly. Firing a bullet like this | is not that dangerous. Though neither should be done in any circumstance.

This is correct. The bullet travelling upwards has the momentum of the gunpowder behind it; coming back to earth, however, its velocity is its mass x gravity.

[Anti Federalist]

A shotgun has much less traveling or stopping power than a bullet though, so would this size load be that dangerous?

Fired straight up and returning at free-fall speed?

No.

[kcchiefs6465]

Also in this case it's a shotgun load, though reminding myself how large buckshot loads are, it still doesn't make me really comfortable for those to come raining down:

A shotgun has much less traveling or stopping power than a bullet though, so would this size load be that dangerous?
I'm not sure if it would be more or less dangerous. I know I wouldn't want to get hit with either though. I would assume it would be less dangerous than a rifle round or a pistol round being fired. [simply because of the weight of the projectile and how high it would travel up before falling] Though them being round as opposed to a more conical shape probably would let them keep most of the momentum when falling. That's a good question. I think it's still a good idea to tell people not to shoot unless they are shooting at a target.

Mythbusters tested a 9mm, IIRC.

[TheGrinch]

Fired straight up and returning at free-fall speed?

No.

That's what I thought, considering a shotgun does its damage in close quarters.

[Tod]

A few years ago in the next town west of me there was a case of someone shooting w/o a backstop and the bullet hit someone about a mile and a half away. It took a while to figure out where the bullet came from and who shot it, but they eventually did figure it out. I don't recall if the person who was shot died or not, though, nor what the caliber was. :(

[phill4paul]

Silly story is silly.

As a member of the ruling class, nothing would happen to Jill Biden in this situation.

Woe betide one of us Mundanes if we try it though.

Seeing through the bullshit...priceless.

[keh10]

Mythbusters has answered this question for us:

"Bullets fired into the air maintain their lethal capability when they eventually fall back down.

busted / plausible / confirmed

In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured. To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time."



This is correct. The bullet travelling upwards has the momentum of the gunpowder behind it; coming back to earth, however, its velocity is its mass x gravity.

Almost, a bullet's velocity returning to earth is limited by air resistance. The faster a bullet travels, the more air resistance it will face, thus terminal velocity will be reached. The equation you gave allows the bullet to constantly accelerate from the force of gravity.

While bullet's can indeed be lethal if shot into the air, shotgun's projectiles DON'T spiral and the terminal velocity would be significantly less than lethal. Regardless of law, firing a shotgun into the air isn't nearly as dangerous as firing a bullet from a rifle.

[TheGrinch]

Mythbusters has answered this question for us:

"Bullets fired into the air maintain their lethal capability when they eventually fall back down.

busted / plausible / confirmed

In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured. To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time."




Almost, a bullet's velocity returning to earth is limited by air resistance. The faster a bullet travels, the more air resistance it will face, thus terminal velocity will be reached. The equation you gave allows the bullet to constantly accelerate from the force of gravity.

While bullet's can indeed be lethal if shot into the air, shotgun's projectiles DON'T spiral and the terminal velocity would be significantly less than lethal. Regardless of law, firing a shotgun into the air isn't nearly as dangerous as firing a bullet from a rifle.

Not only are they not spiraled or areo-dynamic, even the largest buckshots are significantly smaller individually than a high-caliber bullet, though in the case of a larger load, the sheer number could make them more dangerous for injuries I suppose, but probably not anywhere near deadly coming from the sky and not at a vital unprotected spot like horizonantally..

[Mini-Me]

Mythbusters has answered this question for us:

"Bullets fired into the air maintain their lethal capability when they eventually fall back down.

busted / plausible / confirmed

In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured. To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time."




Almost, a bullet's velocity returning to earth is limited by air resistance. The faster a bullet travels, the more air resistance it will face, thus terminal velocity will be reached. The equation you gave allows the bullet to constantly accelerate from the force of gravity.

While bullet's can indeed be lethal if shot into the air, shotgun's projectiles DON'T spiral and the terminal velocity would be significantly less than lethal. Regardless of law, firing a shotgun into the air isn't nearly as dangerous as firing a bullet from a rifle.

Excellent. This makes sense, so thanks for the specifics regarding tumbling vs. continuing to spiral forward aerodynamically. :) I wonder how far off from "vertical" the angle would have to be to prevent the bullet from tumbling at its peak?



This is correct. The bullet travelling upwards has the momentum of the gunpowder behind it; coming back to earth, however, its velocity is its mass x gravity.

I want to correct something here as well: Velocity due to acceleration from gravity is actually unaffected by mass, except insomuch as mass and surface area (etc.) contribute to loss of velocity from air resistance (collisions with air particles, etc.). If the Earth had no atmosphere and you shot a bullet up (assuming it still fired in the absence of air...), it would eventually reach a peak height, and downward acceleration from gravity (about 9.8 m/s^2 no matter an object's mass) would cause it to reach the height it was fired at the same vertical velocity at which it was fired.

[jkr]

shoulda got one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvEPIej2a78

[Wooden Indian]

shoulda got one of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvEPIej2a78

Girl or gun? Eh, either way... The answer is YES.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Fired straight up and returning at free-fall speed?

No.


Well, at least they said they're comfortable with it.

Shoot your rounds straight up, let them hit you (that's still a parabola if you can do it, really), and I'm cool with that. Have at it.

[Anti Federalist]

Well, at least they said they're comfortable with it.

Shoot your rounds straight up, let them hit you (that's still a parabola if you can do it, really), and I'm cool with that. Have at it.

Pffft...I violated "Know your target" and had a wad of lead and jacket come back at me and take a chunk out of my scalp and knock my ass down.

Coma at me brah!

[kcchiefs6465]

Well, at least they said they're comfortable with it.

Shoot your rounds straight up, let them hit you (that's still a parabola if you can do it, really), and I'm cool with that. Have at it.
What? [to the first part]

Well actually, to the entire post.

[Smart3]

I thought Delaware was part of the US, not the UK...

[Philhelm]

What if the criminal is armed with an assault rifle loaded with a 30-round magazine and she is only armed with a shotgun? Silly question, I know, as the criminal would have been prevented from ever obtaining the weapon in the first place.

[kcchiefs6465]

What if the criminal is armed with an assault rifle loaded with a 30-round magazine and she is only armed with a shotgun? Silly question, I know, as the criminal would have been prevented from ever obtaining the weapon in the first place.
Shoot two rounds into the air.. hope they don't try to give you 20 years. [assuming you survive the situation, that is]

[Philhelm]

Shoot two rounds into the air.. hope they don't try to give you 20 years. [assuming you survive the situation, that is]

What makes you think I'm not the man with the assault rifle in this scenario? :D

[bolil]

LOL at bland rooflines. The house to the NE makes Biden's look like a hut. Pathetic giant gable.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Well, at least they said they're comfortable with it.

Shoot your rounds straight up, let them hit you (that's still a parabola if you can do it, really), and I'm cool with that. Have at it.


Pffft...I violated "Know your target" and had a wad of lead and jacket come back at me and take a chunk out of my scalp and knock my ass down.

Coma at me brah!

From the my dumb kid dept...

When I was in 6th or 7th grade I had this science class where they were talking about the rotation of the earth, and they kind of exaggerated what the rotation was... So we also had an archery range in the back yard, and I'd been thinking about this lesson... so decided to experiment. Aimed that bow straight up and pulled back as hard as I could and let loose - fully expecting that arrow to land some yards down yard... I waited, and waited, and waited and finally moved a few yards up-yard so I could get a glimpse of the arrow at an angle - figured I would be able to see it better that way. KATHUNK! - damn thing sunk itself half way into the ground - exactly where I had been standing...

I decided not to tell my parents about that one... till years later. It's the only time I've ever seen my dad do a face palm...

We used to shoot cans in canyons too, with .22's and I had one ricochet and come back and hit me. Lost most of it's energy on the rock and it was traveling so slow you could see it incoming. Hit and stung with the velocity of someone snapping a rubber band against your skin. A paint ball would have hurt worse.

-t

[bolil]

If I could fart like joe biden (aka the super-sally) speaks, my gastric issues would be resolved. Basically, I hate the man.