We have a new pope

[tangent4ronpaul]

won't know who for about 45 mins...

the white smoke has been seen...

-t

[ronpaulfollower999]

Damn...you beat me to it!

[Brian4Liberty]

Who will it be?

[ronpaulfollower999]

Can't wait to hear TokenLibertarianGuy's opinion on the new pope.

[JK/SEA]

i wonder if this one will aggressivley advocate to end these wars in the middle east?...

[kahless]

i wonder if this one will aggressivley advocate to end these wars in the middle east?...

The Vatican strongly opposed the US-Iraq war, Pope John Paul said the war against Iraq will be unjust and illegal.

[Brian4Liberty]

Cardinal Rodriquez.



;)

[kathy88]

Cardinal Paul :eek:

[Inkblots]

In all seriousness, I've been praying hard that it will be Cardinal Scola. No one would be more dedicated to reforming and rooting out corruption in the stagnant Curial bureaucracy. The historical irony of this is that he probably doesn't have a great chance precisely because he's Italian.

[No Free Beer]

Barack Obama.

[Inkblots]

Barack Obama.

To steal a gag from John Stewart, I doubt he'd accept the demotion.

[Zippyjuan]

Surprised it actually happened so quickly.

[Brian4Liberty]

Barack Obama.

Winner.

What a bunch of douchebags they have been interviewing on TV. "Oh, I hope it's an American. That would be so awesome!" That's some real deep spirituality right there. :rolleyes:

[ronpaulfollower999]

Surprised it actually happened so quickly.

They might've listened to St. Malachy. *cough cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Turkson

[Schifference]

Surprised it actually happened so quickly.

They probably knew who it was before Benedict announced his retirement.

[tasteless]

They probably knew who it was before Benedict announced his retirement.

? Then why did they take 4 ballots?

[JK/SEA]

? Then why did they take 4 ballots?

theater. everyone's happy.

next.

[VanBummel]

The historical irony of this is that he probably doesn't have a great chance precisely because he's Italian.

Especially since the Italian cardinals had to start wearing 'Italian privilege' wristbands. :p

[Brian4Liberty]

Especially since the Italian cardinals had to start wearing 'Italian privilege' wristbands. :p

What color are those? "spray tan"? :D

[sailingaway]

https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1799643339/twitter_large_star_normal.jpg Carl's Jr. ‏@CarlsJr
White smoke over the Vatican = New Pope. White smoke @CarlsJr = lunch hot off the charbroiler! #EatLikeYouMeanIt

https://twitter.com/CarlsJr/status/311906954610089985

[Cowlesy]

I'd like a Pope Sixtus, or Pope Boniface...Pope Pelagius...etc

[compromise]

Is he a liberty candidate?

[Zippyjuan]

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio from Argentina. Said he is one of the older Cardinals- 76 years old (Cardinals in the enclave can't be over 80). Now called Pope Francis.

Believe this is him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Card._Jorge_Bergoglio_SJ%2C_2008.jpg/220px-Card._Jorge_Bergoglio_SJ%2C_2008.jpg

[green73]

Jorge Bergoglio - Pope Francis I
http://www.dagospia.com/img/foto/02-2013/jorge-mario-bergoglio-217438.jpg

[S.Shorland]

Petrus romanus

[Nirvikalpa]

Jesuit.

Can't wait to hear the conspiracy theories... I know Petar is going nuts right now. :D

[Petar]

Jesuit.

Can't wait to hear the conspiracy theories... I know Petar is going nuts right now. :D

"Pearls before swine"

[Zippyjuan]

First modern non-European Pope.

[PaleoPaul]

He's a Jesuit...can't wait to hear Alex Jones on this one!

[liveandletlive]

an Argentine....but 90 percent of them are Italians anyway

guess they wanted both a Latin-American spanish/italian speaking pope





i guess its good for Catholics this guy didnt used to be a Nazi, not a spot on this guy's record

[ronpaulfollower999]

an Argentine....but 90 percent of them are Italians anyway

guess they wanted both a Latin-American spanish/italian speaking pope





i guess its good for Catholics this guy didnt used to be a Nazi, not a spot on this guy's record

Except for being a Jesuit.

[DamianTV]

Is he a liberty candidate?

I think this is really the ONLY question that matters.

But then again, I dont have much confidence in any Church or Organization to respect or protect the Rights of the People. These collections of people always claim to be Exclusive, but fail to convey the meaning of the word. Being Exclusive means that they will only recognize Rights (really, that means that Rights are Permissions) of specific People, and all other People are Excluded from having their Rights (again: application of the word is Permission, not a Right) recognized at all. Want an example? Gays. How about another? Smokers. What if its a different group? Cops. Try another? The 1%. Need some more? Policians. I dont think I need to continue with the examples.

A Pope that truly deserves his position would protect the Rights of ALL People equally, not just a specific group of individuals based on their religious preferences.

[moostraks]

Found this:

Bergoglio stands out for his austerity. As Argentina’s top church official, he’s never lived in the ornate church mansion in Buenos Aires, preferring a simple bed in a downtown room heated by a small stove on frigid weekends. For years, he took public transportation around the city, and cooked his own meals...

“Is Bergoglio a progressive — a liberation theologist even? No. He’s no third-world priest. Does he criticize the International Monetary Fund, and neoliberalism? Yes. Does he spend a great deal of time in the slums? Yes,” Rubin said.

Critics also accuse him of failing to stand up publicly against the country’s military dictatorship from 1976-1983, when victims and their relatives often brought first-hand accounts of torture, death and kidnappings to the priests he supervised as leader of the Jesuit Order in Argentina

Like other Jesuit intellectuals, Bergoglio has focused on social outreach. Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.

“In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don’t baptize the children of single mothers because they weren’t conceived in the sanctity of marriage,” Bergoglio told his priests. “These are today’s hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it’s baptized!”

Bergoglio compared this concept of Catholicism to the Pharisees of Christ’s time: people who congratulate themselves while condemning others.

“Jesus teaches us another way: Go out. Go out and share your testimony, go out and interact with your brothers, go out and share, go out and ask. Become the Word in body as well as spirit,” Bergoglio said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/argentines-jorge-bergoglio-and-leonardo-sandri-offer-strikingly-different-choices/2013/03/04/c0ba58c2-84c4-11e2-a80b-3edc779b676f_story_1.html

[qh4dotcom]

The Vatican strongly opposed the US-Iraq war, Pope John Paul said the war against Iraq will be unjust and illegal.

The Vatican did not oppose it strongly enough....that's why in the past two elections, 98% of the religious electorate voted for the corrupt war pigs Romney, McCain and Obama.

[brushfire]

http://almostitalian.com/images/frsarducci.gif

He patiently waits...

[jkob]

Not Catholic: what is a Jesuit?

[kathy88]

http://almostitalian.com/images/frsarducci.gif

He patiently waits...


OMG ROFLMFAO @ Guido Sarducci

[Grubb556]

His Holiness, The Collins.

[TER]

Found this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/argentines-jorge-bergoglio-and-leonardo-sandri-offer-strikingly-different-choices/2013/03/04/c0ba58c2-84c4-11e2-a80b-3edc779b676f_story_1.html


Sounds like a very good Christian. Congrats to all the Catholics! May he lead the Catholic Church with humility, discernment, and above all love!

[Inkblots]

Not Catholic: what is a Jesuit?

A Jesuit is a member of the Society of Jesus, a religious order within the Catholic Church. The order was founded by St. Ignatius of Loyola to spread the practice of his Spiritual Exercises, to renew obedience to the will of God among Christians, and to halt the spread of the errors of the Protestant Reformation. Uniquely among religious orders, Jesuits take a vow of obedience directly to the Pope.

[Darguth]

Not Catholic: what is a Jesuit?

Jesuits are members of the religious order of the Society of Jesus. Many priests associate with various religious orders which emphasize certain Catholic teachings or ways of life. A prime example would be the simple (impoverished) lives led by the Fransiscans.

Jesuits tend to be very well-educated and often emphasize liberation theology and social justice. They are historically very missionary-oriented as well, willing to go to the most impoverished or dangerous corners of the globe to carry out their ministry.

[TER]

The choice of the name Francis is interesting considering the new Pope is a Jesuit (the Jesuits and the Franciscans have been traditionally rivals). This must be a expression of his desire to be a unifier and should be an encouragement to all the Catholic faithful.

[Petar]

Jesuits are the original Catholic CIA. They have been booted out of like every country in the world multiple times because of all of the trouble that they have always caused. They were even banned for "eternity" by Pope Clement XIV in 1773. He was poisoned shortly thereafter. They were reinstated a few years later despite this Papal Bull. They are also devoted to socialism through "liberation theology". Nirvilkapants can tell you many more details about what kind of assholes Jesuits truly are.

[Smart3]

I'm disappointed an extremist takes the name of a Reformer.

Hopefully his reign is short.

[moostraks]

Sounds like a very good Christian. Congrats to all the Catholics! May he lead the Catholic Church with humility, discernment, and above all love!

:) My thoughts as well...

Did run into this article with some more info:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57574147/jorge-bergoglio-who-is-the-new-pope/

A bit more of a list of what is not liked about him. Seems his quiet, somewhat shy nature has fueled anger for not being outspoken on numerous issues that have affected his flock. Interesting that they would choose him at this time when a more verbal person might be necessary.

[PatriotOne]

Argentine Cardinal Named in Kidnap Lawsuit

April 17, 2005|From Associated Press


VATICAN CITY — A human rights lawyer has filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine cardinal mentioned as a possible contender to become pope, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio's spokesman Saturday called the allegation "old slander."

The complaint filed in a court in the Argentine capital on Friday accused Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires, of involvement in the abduction of two Jesuit priests by the military dictatorship, reported the newspaper Clarin. The complaint does not specify the nature of Bergoglio's alleged involvement.

Under Argentine law, an accusation can be filed with a very low threshold of evidence. A court then decides if there is cause to investigate and file charges.

The accusations against Bergoglio, 68, are detailed in a recent book by Argentine journalist Horacio Verbitsky.

In May 1976, priests Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics were kidnapped by the navy. They surfaced five months later, drugged and seminude, in a field.

At the time, Bergoglio was the superior in the Society of Jesus of Argentina.

[Inkblots]

Seems his quiet, somewhat shy nature has fueled anger for not being outspoken on numerous issues that have affected his flock. Interesting that they would choose him at this time when a more verbal person might be necessary.

A lot of people are of that opinion, but I can't help but think that simple humility and quiet prayerfulness from the Holy Father might do more to win souls for Christ and renew the stagnant parts of the Church at this moment than another charismatic media star like John Paul II would.

[coastie]

http://www.picvalley.net/u/2989/2218349877160897611363206068TUEwobK3ifkp0nQ7Snuj.G IF (http://www.picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2989/2218349877160897611363206068TUEwobK3ifkp0nQ7Snuj.G IF)

[Nirvikalpa]

Jesuits are the original Catholic CIA. They have been booted out of like every country in the world multiple times because of all of the trouble that they have always caused. They were even banned for "eternity" by Pope Clement XIV in 1773. He was poisoned shortly thereafter. They were reinstated a few years later despite this Papal Bull. They are also devoted to socialism through "liberation theology". Nirvilkapants can tell you many more details about what kind of assholes Jesuits truly are.

The jesuits don't bother me, as you know, I just always found it hilarious how much you despise them.

[Darguth]

I've never met a Jesuit I didn't like. A lot. However, they were local parish priests, not really involved in higher-level management or administration of the order at all so I really have no first-hand experience of the organization as a whole.

[bunklocoempire]

http://s6.postimage.org/o3c0z6ir5/santorum_thumbs_up.jpg

[Petar]

The jesuits don't bother me, as you know, I just always found it hilarious how much you despise them.

Am I supposed to be impressed by your amazing ability to succumb to peer pressure and think exactly like everyone else?

Let me know when you have an original thought to share about anything.

[TheTyke]

The new pope criticizes the IMF and kidnaps people like Rand Paul? That's... awesome.

[jclay2]

Why do people give this man such divine importance? Its almost like its an unofficial religion. Just creeps me out.

[Darguth]

Why do people give this man such divine importance? Its almost like its an unofficial religion. Just creeps me out.

I'm Catholic, and I agree. I get the same sense with Marianism, which to me borders upon worship.

I look to the Pope as a spiritual leader and a teacher, but he's still a man with all the failings of a man. One of my largest struggles with Catholic Dogma is with ex cathedra teachings (in addition to the normal struggles with the Mysteries of the Trinity and the Eucharist, etc.)

I attended the last World Youth Day in Madrid, and while I certainly enjoyed the community of Catholics I encountered and I appreciated the opportunity to partake in the Mass with Pope Benedict XVI, I was definitely offput by the level of veneration and *celebrity status* that people displayed towards him.

[Tinnuhana]

In May 1976, priests Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics were kidnapped by the navy. They surfaced five months later, drugged and seminude, in a field.

(boldface not in original)

Intentional pun?

However, concerning his austere/humble lifestyle: having a hobbit hold the ring of power may not be the worst thing in the world.

Also, let's hear the people saying Ron Paul is too old to be president spin this one.

[TaftFan]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQVR89hixdOyENG7xWDGIyeOfXeYcLN Ug-lZaraUk0l6AnEBP3

[libertygrl]

I was born and raised Catholic. I still enjoy the historic aspect of these traditions such as the selection of a new pope. But I take any Pope, as well as this display of pageantry with a grain of salt. He's just a mortal man and as a believer, I know whose really in charge. ;)

From what I have heard on the news, he's a man who has led a life of humility and simplicity. That's why he took the name of Francis after St. Francis of Assisi. He called out the Catholic Church once for its hypocricy regarding helping the sick and poor. So far I like what I'm hearing...

[Petar]

I was born and raised Catholic. I still enjoy the historic aspect of these traditions such as the selection of a new pope. But I take any Pope, as well as this display of pageantry with a grain of salt. He's just a mortal man and as a believer, I know whose really in charge. ;)

From what I have heard on the news, he's a man who has led a life of humility and simplicity. That's why he took the name of Francis after St. Francis of Assisi. He called out the Catholic Church once for its hypocricy regarding helping the sick and poor. So far I like what I'm hearing...

zzzzzzzzzz wake me up when he starts talking to animals.

[green73]

http://almostitalian.com/images/frsarducci.gif

He patiently waits...

Didn't you know? He left the priesthood to become a famous trends forecaster.

[TER]

zzzzzzzzzz wake me up when he starts talking to animals.

Unfortunately, those men are rare these days. He doesn't have to have such charisma to be a good Pope. Humility, love and charity suffice (and a firm obedience to the Word of God).

[libertygrl]

zzzzzzzzzz wake me up when he starts talking to animals.

So what are you anti-religion, anti-catholic, anti-God, or just anti-humility and simplicity?? I can't tell from your post. :rolleyes:

[Petar]

So what are you anti-religion, anti-catholic, anti-God, or just anti-humility and simplicity?? I can't tell from your post. :rolleyes:

I'm just being silly. I was brought up attending a Franciscan church and I always thought that the Dr. Doolittle thing was pretty funny.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Sounds like a very good Christian. Congrats to all the Catholics! May he lead the Catholic Church with humility, discernment, and above all love!

O God, the Shepherd and Ruler of all Your faithful people, mercifully look upon Your servant Francis, whom You have chosen as the chief Shepherd to preside over Your Church. We beg You to help him edify, both by word and example, those over whom he has charge, that he may reach everlasting life together with the flock entrusted to him. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

[libertygrl]

I'm just being silly. I was brought up attending a Franciscan church and I always thought that the Dr. Doolittle thing was pretty funny.

LOL. You mean like this??

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4689229034162056&pid=15.1


The confusing thing about conversing on online forums is that you never know whether someone is being funny or being a jerk. I seem to get it wrong all the time! :o Thanks for the post.

[dinosaur]

Jesuit.

Can't wait to hear the conspiracy theories... I know Petar is going nuts right now. :D

I don't know anything about the guy, but it does scare me that he is a Jesuit. Not that there haven't been, or can't be good Jesuits, but the order has been heavily infiltrated for a long time.

[PierzStyx]

I'm just being silly. I was brought up attending a Franciscan church and I always thought that the Dr. Doolittle thing was pretty funny.

I'm Mormon and I'm willing to admit, Francis of Assisi was a spiritual giant. Its a shame what the Franciscan bureaucrats did to his Order.

[MelissaWV]

mmmm that new Pope smell

[Petar]

LOL. You mean like this??

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4689229034162056&pid=15.1


The confusing thing about conversing on online forums is that you never know whether someone is being funny or being a jerk. I seem to get it wrong all the time! :o Thanks for the post.

Heh, well a little more like this actually:

http://i.imgur.com/7TpUOPc.jpg?1

[green73]

New Pope Likely to Disappoint the War Party
Posted by Ryan W. McMaken on March 13, 2013 03:41 PM

The new Pope, Francis, may shape up to be a Neocon nightmare.

First, of all, those lousy Cardinals didn't elect an American, so they obviously don't know what's good for them. Secondly, they elected someone from Latin America (Argentina) of all places.

Latin America, it seems, is the one region of the world where the CIA has not been allowed to operate secret Torture Fortresses. South America should be punished for that. But those clerics didn't cooperate.

So, the new pope is from the wrong country and the wrong continent. Also, his chosen regnal name, Francis, is horrible. The name a Pope chooses is very important and communicates much about his style and emphasis as pope. Pope Francis likely chose the name as an homage to Saint Francis Xavier, the missionary extraordinaire who spread the faith to India, Japan and Borneo. Saint Francis apparently viewed non-Europeans as human beings. The War Party can't much care for that. Even worse, Pope Francis was sure to know that the name Francis will remind people of the most famous Francis. The one from Assisi. That guy was notable for not being a big fan of war. Indeed, Saint Francis of Assisi went to Muslim lands unarmed in an attempt to convert them. He didn't take a single drone with him, being hopelessly naive, as he was, and not appreciating the holiness of a good carpet bombing.

The War Party of course was probably hoping for the equivalent of an Innocent IV, who might carry on the tradition of Innocent III, the pope of the Albigensian Crusade and other militarist horrors. No such luck, it seems.

Given Pope Francis' overall background, it's extremely likely that he'll continue the antiwar policies of John Paul II (whom Raimondo called the Gandalf of the Peace Party) and Benedict XVI. Justin Raimondo covers this more here and here.

The next time the US begins a major invasion and bombing campaign, I expect the War Mission of George Weigel, Michael Novak, et al may again travel to the Vatican to shill for more war, but they will be probably meet the same chilly reception they met with J.P. II in 2003.

Only time will tell of course, but the War Party, I'm sure, will simply sneer and comfort themselves by asking, "How many drones does the Pope have?"

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/133798.html

[PierzStyx]

I'm Catholic, and I agree. I get the same sense with Marianism, which to me borders upon worship.

I look to the Pope as a spiritual leader and a teacher, but he's still a man with all the failings of a man. One of my largest struggles with Catholic Dogma is with ex cathedra teachings (in addition to the normal struggles with the Mysteries of the Trinity and the Eucharist, etc.)

I attended the last World Youth Day in Madrid, and while I certainly enjoyed the community of Catholics I encountered and I appreciated the opportunity to partake in the Mass with Pope Benedict XVI, I was definitely offput by the level of veneration and *celebrity status* that people displayed towards him.

I get how a living leader can get "rock star status" from his followers. As a non-Catholic that doesn't bother me, necessarily. Marianism though has given me pause more than once when I've seen how much worshipful devotion people give to Mary.

[camp_steveo]

"we" do not.

[James Madison]

So, how does this man connect to 'Peter the Roman'?

Edit: I'd love to see a Calvinist Pope just for the lolz

[PierzStyx]

:) My thoughts as well...

Did run into this article with some more info:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57574147/jorge-bergoglio-who-is-the-new-pope/

A bit more of a list of what is not liked about him. Seems his quiet, somewhat shy nature has fueled anger for not being outspoken on numerous issues that have affected his flock. Interesting that they would choose him at this time when a more verbal person might be necessary.

Solid leadership will go much farther than honey words. If the man can lead, then he will do the job well. I think that was Benedict's problem. He didn't know how to lead.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

His biography reminds me of the life of St. Frances of Rome in the way he has spent his life helping the poor.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Edit: I'd love to see a Calvinist Pope just for the lolz

A heretic cannot become Pope.

[Lucille]

Some are calling him the first CrunchyCon Pope at AmConMag (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/francis-the-first-jesuit-pope/).


“Is Bergoglio a progressive — a liberation theologist even? No. He’s no third-world priest. Does he criticize the International Monetary Fund, and neoliberalism? Yes. Does he spend a great deal of time in the slums? Yes,” Rubin said.
[...]
Like other Jesuit intellectuals, Bergoglio has focused on social outreach. Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.

“In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don’t baptize the children of single mothers because they weren’t conceived in the sanctity of marriage,” Bergoglio told his priests. “These are today’s hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it’s baptized!

Bergoglio compared this concept of Catholicism to the Pharisees of Christ’s time: people who congratulate themselves while condemning others.

“Jesus teaches us another way: Go out. Go out and share your testimony, go out and interact with your brothers, go out and share, go out and ask. Become the Word in body as well as spirit,” Bergoglio said.

Good stuff. This is good too:


Cardinal Bergoglio said the challenge to eradicate poverty could not be truthfully met as long as the poor continue to be dependents of the State (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/extreme_poverty_is_also_a_violation_of_human_right s_says_argentinean_cardinal/). The government and other organizations should instead work to create the social conditions that will promote and protect the rights of the poor and enable them to be the builders of their own future, he explained.

That's good too, green73. The Catholic neo-Trots will be crushed.

WWJSS (http://www.sobran.com/wanderer/w2007/w070719.shtml)?

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Interesting fact: Francis only has one lung, he had the other removed due to an infection in his youth.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

NEW POPE: NO COMMUNION FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS (http://www.breitbart.com/big-peace/2013/03/13/francis-no-communion-abortion)


In the Aparecida Document, a document that represents a joint statement by Latin American church leaders but presented by Francis in 2007, the leaders stated, “we should commit ourselves to ‘eucharistic coherence,’ that is, we should be conscious that people cannot receive holy communion and at the same time act or speak against the commandments, in particular when abortions, euthanasia, and other serious crimes against life and family are facilitated. This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals.”

Francis is also anti-euthanasia: “Today,” he wrote, “elderly people are discarded when, in reality, they are the seat of wisdom of the society. The right to life means allowing people to live and not killing, allowing them to grow, to eat, to be educated, to be healed, and to be permitted to die with dignity.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-peace/2013/03/13/francis-no-communion-abortion


I really do hope he sticks to this position as Pope :)

[Brian4Liberty]

NEW POPE: NO COMMUNION FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS (http://www.breitbart.com/big-peace/2013/03/13/francis-no-communion-abortion)


How about liars, cheats, frauds, thieves, con-men, Wall St. and the taxman?

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

How about liars, cheats, frauds, thieves, con-men, Wall St. and the taxman?

No one in mortal sin is permitted to take part in the Eucharist.

[Brian4Liberty]

NEW POPE: NO COMMUNION FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS (http://www.breitbart.com/big-peace/2013/03/13/francis-no-communion-abortion)

What about those who violate Bellum iustum? How about killing innocents as collateral damage? No communion for them?

[James Madison]

How about liars, cheats, frauds, thieves, con-men, Wall St. and the taxman?

How about heathen Protestants like myself?

[Inkblots]

How about liars, cheats, frauds, thieves, con-men, Wall St. and the taxman?

Catholic theology teaches that it's a sin for anyone in a state of mortal sin to receive Communion. That document was just reiterating that, yes, making policies supporting abortion is tantamount to supporting murder in the eyes of the Church, and those who do so shouldn't pretend they haven't committed a mortal sin.

[MelissaWV]

What about those who violate Bellum iustum? How about killing innocents as collateral damage? No communion for them?

That would be correct, but it's generally a self-enforced policy.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

How about heathen Protestants like myself?

Only Catholics (and Orthodox in extreme cases) may receive the Eucharist. Obviously we would bar those who do not acknowledge that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity). One must be in a state of grace to receive the Sacrament and being in schism with the Church prevents that.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

What about those who violate Bellum iustum? How about killing innocents as collateral damage? No communion for them?

Again, all those in mortal sin are barred from receiving Communion.

There are essentially 4 conditions to take Communion:

1) Be in a state of grace
2) You must believe in transubstantiation
3) You must observe the Eucharistic fast.
4) You must not be under an ecclesiastical censure. (excommunication, for example)

[James Madison]

So, is mortal sin somehow different from an immortal sin?

[Inkblots]

How about heathen Protestants like myself?

Those who deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist may not receive it. On the other hand, it is permissible for Eastern Orthodox Christians to receive Communion at a Catholic Mass, as they do confess the Real Presence.

[cheapseats]

Only Catholics (and Orthodox in extreme cases) may receive the Eucharist. Obviously we would bar those who do not acknowledge that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ...

I was raised Catholic, including eight years of parochial school with Mass on "First Fridays" and all "Holy Days". Mass every Sunday until we were old enough (read that, EMPLOYED) to maaaaybe have a valid excuse to miss Mass.

NEVER is when I ever saw anyone "barred" from Communion. Do you reckon NOT ONE heathen faker slipped by?

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

So, is mortal sin somehow different from an immortal sin?

There are three types of sin:

1) Original Sin
2) Venial Sin
3) Mortal Sin

[The Northbreather]

Weren't some Jesuits involved with JFK's murder?

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

I was raised Catholic, including eight years of parochial school with Mass on "First Fridays" and all "Holy Days". Mass every Sunday until we were old enough (read that EMPLOYED) to have an excuse to miss Mass.

NEVER is when I ever saw anyone "barred" from Communion. Do you reckon NOT ONE piker slipped by?

In 99% of cases it is expected that you bar yourself from Communion if in mortal sin. You don't actually expect the priest to know who is and who is not in sin? Any Catholic would know if they are in mortal sin and that taking Communion without being in a state of grace is also a sin. Some people just don't care, though, and through their arrogance damn themselves to Hell.

[James Madison]

There are three types of sin:

1) Original Sin
2) Venial Sin
3) Mortal Sin

Where is this in the Bible?

[cheapseats]

In 99% of cases it is expected that you bar yourself from Communion if in mortal sin...


Are ya sayin' there's an HONOR SYSTEM in the Catholic Church?

I'd LOL, if any of this were funny.

[Inkblots]

NEVER is when I ever saw anyone "barred" from Communion. Do you reckon NOT ONE heathen faker slipped by?

The priest doesn't have extra-sensory perception to tell if you're in a state of mortal sin. Catholics are called to examine their conscience before Mass and, if they sinned by commission or omission and have not received absolution, to not go up to receive the Eucharist. Instead, they should pray an act of Spiritual Communion and resolve to Confess their sin when able.

Here's the prayer I use at such times:

My Jesus,
I believe that You are present in the Most Holy Sacrament.
I love You above all things, and I desire to receive You into my soul.
Since I cannot at this moment receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You.

Amen.

The fact that many Catholics may be unaware of this is a testament to the poor quality of Catechesis in the US in the years following Vatican II.

[cheapseats]

...Catholics are called to examine their conscience before Mass and, if they sinned by commission or omission and have not received absolution, to not go up to receive the Eucharist. Instead, they should pray an act of Spiritual Communion and resolve to Confess their sin when able...

THEORY vs. REALITY

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Where is this in the Bible?

Yes, this is a copy/paste reply.


As always, Catholic theology starts with reason, experience and
commonsense and never departs from these norms. God created our
nature and our environment, and His revelation and saving grace do
not conflict with our realities, but redeem and heal them. Hence in
dealing with sin, Catholics observe and recognize differences among
sins and call serious sins "mortal" and trifling sins "venial". (This
is our vocabulary, developed through the centuries). Scripture, of
course, approves this distinction and makes use of it, clearly
teaching that some sins are worse than others. See Jeremiah 7:26,
Lamentations 4:6, Ezechiel 16:44-58, 1 John 5:16-17, Matthew 11:22,
John 19:11.

Some sins are so great that they exclude the sinner from God's
Kingdom (1st Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); others are less
serious, deserving temporal but not eternal fire (1st Corinthians
3:11,15). Daily small faults are found even in holy people
(Ecclesiastes 7:21; James 3:2; 1st John 1:8).

[Anti Federalist]

http://almostitalian.com/images/frsarducci.gif

He patiently waits...

"Twenty fiv-a cents, twenty fiv-a cents, you know, that-a can add up quickly."

[Brian4Liberty]

In 99% of cases it is expected that you bar yourself from Communion if in mortal sin. You don't actually expect the priest to know who is and who is not in sin? Any Catholic would know if they are in mortal sin and that taking Communion without being in a state of grace is also a sin. Some people just don't care, though, and through their arrogance damn themselves to Hell.

Well, in the article you quoted, it seems as though some people will have a litmus test which will remove the doubt and guesswork. Thus, we could expect a good portion of Catholic politicians to be banned from communion for a wide variety of mortal sins, with the proof being votes in Congress or stated and supported policies.

Can we start with Nancy Pelosi?


This responsibility applies particularly to legislators, governors, and health professionals

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

THEORY vs. REALITY

What's your point? Yes, people in mortal sin take Communion. They aren't supposed to, but they also aren't supposed to be in mortal sin in the first place...

[Brian4Liberty]

Only Catholics (and Orthodox in extreme cases) may receive the Eucharist. Obviously we would bar those who do not acknowledge that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity). One must be in a state of grace to receive the Sacrament and being in schism with the Church prevents that.

Some Protestants don't want communion from the anti-Christ anyway. :p

On second thought, we have plenty of threads in the religion sub-forum for debating interdenominational differences. I don't want to rain on the new Pope celebration thread. My bad.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Well, in the article you quoted, it seems as though some people will have a litmus test which will remove the doubt and guesswork. Thus, we could expect a good portion of Catholic politicians to be banned from communion for a wide variety of mortal sins, with the proof being votes in Congress or stated and supported policies.

Can we start with Nancy Pelosi?

It is actually the duty of any Catholic to bar someone they know who is in mortal sin from taking Communion out of respect to God. Remember, that to us Catholics the Eucharist is really Christ, fully and completely Him, body, blood, soul, and divinity.

Nancy Pelosi, I believe, has already been barred on multiple occasions from receive the Eucharist. So have Joe Biden and John Kerry.

[Inkblots]

Where is this in the Bible?

1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to this brother -- provided that it is not a deadly sin. There is sin that leads to death and I am not saying you must pray about that.
Every kind of wickedness is sin, but not all sin leads to death.

In this passage, the Bible explicitly draws the distinction between venial and mortal (deadly) sin. I could give you other citations as well, but this is the most explicit.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

The fact that many Catholics may be unaware of this is a testament to the poor quality of Catechesis in the US in the years following Vatican II.

Not just in the US, worldwide. The "spirit of Vatican II" has been such a tragedy for the Church and humanity in general.

[Inkblots]

Not just in the US, worldwide. The "spirit of Vatican II" has been such a tragedy for the Church and humanity in general.

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to TokenLibertarianGuy again."

I couldn't agree more, of course. The irony is, if you read the Council documents, the "spirit of Vatican II" advanced by so many progressives within the Church is completely at odds with the actual teachings that came out of Vatican II.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to TokenLibertarianGuy again."

I couldn't agree more, of course. The irony is, if you read the Council documents, the "spirit of Vatican II" advanced by so many progressives within the Church is completely at odds with the actual teachings that came out of Vatican II.

That is why I don't reject Vatican II like the SSPX does. The Council didn't even reject the Tridentine Mass! It was the interpretation by modernist forces (sent by Satan himself) within the Church that have caused so much damage.

[cheapseats]

THEORY vs. REALITY


What's your point? Yes, people in mortal sin take Communion. They aren't supposed to, but they also aren't supposed to be in mortal sin in the first place...

That the rich and corrupt Catholic Church, dominated by guys decked out in jewels & robes (who have turned a blind eye to entrenched Closet Homosexuality and who have shielded pedophiles), issue lotsa Gladys Kravitz busybody directives that MANY CATHOLICS ROUTINELY IGNORE.

Not my problem.

Alienating/SCARING American Voters/Politicians IS my problem.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

That the rich and corrupt Catholic Church, dominated by guys decked out in jewels & robes (who have turned a blind eye to entrenched Closet Homosexuality and who have shielded pedophiles), issue lotsa Gladys Kravitz busybody directives that MANY CATHOLICS ROUTINELY IGNORE.

Not my problem.

Alienating/SCARING American Voters IS my problem.

It is not some "busy body directive" issued by the Church. It is plainly stated in the Holy Bible!!!


Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup

That many Catholic ignore that is nothing new, many Christians ignore all 10 Commandments on a regular basis! Every single man sins!!!

[cheapseats]

That many Catholic ignore that is nothing new, many Christians ignore all 10 Commandments on a regular basis! Every single man sins!!!


Which is exactly why Holy Rollers should KNOCK OFF trying to legislate Morality.

OR, spiritual-but-not-religious Believers and non-Believers could/should gang up to QUIT LETTING Holy Rollers derail elections.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Which is exactly why Holy Rollers should KNOCK OFF trying to legislate Morality.

OR, spiritual-but-not-religious Believers and non-Believers could/should gang up to QUIT LETTING Holy Rollers derail elections.

What the fuck are you talking about with "derail elections." What does the Church following what it says in the Bible about who can and cannot take Communion have to do with elections?

[James Madison]

Yes, this is a copy/paste reply.

I've read and re-read every one of these passages and nowhere does this support your assertion that some sins are worse than others.

Please read Romans 3 and 6.

No man, no matter how faithful, is Righteous before God. All sin is mortal. "The Wage of Sin is Death." God imputes His Infinite Righteousness on those He has Chosen from the beginning of Creation, and their eyes and hearts will be opened to the Gospel. Even so, man will sin because he is prideful; he believes he can make himself righteous without God, whose Righteousness wipes away our sins on the Judgement Day. God can save whomever He wants, no matter how wicked they may be. Whether He will, however, is another story.

[cheapseats]

03-13-2013 08:06 PM
TokenLibertarianGuy

Neg Rep: "You are such a troll."


You are such an unmanly guy.

[rubioneocon]

. . .

the white smoke has been seen...



the joke I had heard . . .
a tradition that was started way back by Popes Cheech and Chong

[rubioneocon]

It is actually the duty of any Catholic to bar someone they know who is in mortal sin from taking Communion out of respect to God. Remember, that to us Catholics the Eucharist is really Christ, fully and completely Him, body, blood, soul, and divinity.

Nancy Pelosi, I believe, has already been barred on multiple occasions from receive the Eucharist. So have Joe Biden and John Kerry.

As a Catholic, I feel it is up to the individual to determine if they are able to take Communion.

Of course, I'd wonder why Rudy Giuliani (on with Hannity last night) would take Communion . . .
but it ain't really my call.

[bolil]

I'm disappointed an extremist takes the name of a Reformer.

Hopefully his reign is short.

Hmmm, you are wishing death on the pope? as it is most likely that this one won't abdicate? If so: are you always an jerk, or just on teh internet?

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Hmmm, you are wishing death on the pope? as it is most likely that this one won't abdicate? If so: are you always an jerk, or just on teh internet?

He's a sick individual. He's said such despicable things such as abortion should be used as a crime prevention method and that he's not sure if it would immoral to murder a newborn. I tend to ignore what he says.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

As a Catholic, I feel it is up to the individual to determine if they are able to take Communion.

Of course, I'd wonder why Rudy Giuliani (on with Hannity last night) would take Communion . . .
but it ain't really my call.

It pretty much is up to the individual. But if you truly believe in transubstantiation, then you wouldn't allow anyone you know to take Communion who is in mortal sin. They are 'guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.'

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

I've read and re-read every one of these passages and nowhere does this support your assertion that some sins are worse than others.

Please read Romans 3 and 6.

No man, no matter how faithful, is Righteous before God. All sin is mortal. "The Wage of Sin is Death." God imputes His Infinite Righteousness on those He has Chosen from the beginning of Creation, and their eyes and hearts will be opened to the Gospel. Even so, man will sin because he is prideful; he believes he can make himself righteous without God, whose Righteousness wipes away our sins on the Judgement Day. God can save whomever He wants, no matter how wicked they may be. Whether He will, however, is another story.

No, God through Christ helps us to become righteous (infused righteousness).

[Inkblots]

I've read and re-read every one of these passages and nowhere does this support your assertion that some sins are worse than others.

...All sin is mortal.

It doesn't sound like you read it. Read it again:
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to this brother -- provided that it is not a deadly sin. There is sin that leads to death and I am not saying you must pray about that.
Every kind of wickedness is sin, but not all sin leads to death.

In this passage, the Bible explicitly draws the distinction between venial and mortal (deadly) sin. John couldn't be any clearer about it. NOT all sin is deadly in the sense the Church as the Bible speak of it.

[RockEnds]

"Twenty fiv-a cents, twenty fiv-a cents, you know, that-a can add up quickly."

We pay for our sins. Literally.

I was really hoping Father Guido would get the nod today.

[rubioneocon]

the white smoke has been seen...




the joke I had heard . . .
a tradition that was started way back by Popes Cheech and Chong


I've read and re-read every one of these passages and nowhere does this support your assertion that some sins are worse than others.

All sin is mortal.


So, is mortal sin somehow different from an immortal sin?

Of course . . . fyi according to my nun Sunday school teacher . . . way back when


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z92bmlcmyq0

first ya' got your venial sins,
but if you commit one of the seven capital sins (btw, also called the seven deadly sins or the seven cardinal sins)
then you really should go to confession . . .

mortal sins are a condemnation to hell . . . but still, it aint my or anyone else's call



As a Catholic, I feel it is up to the individual to determine if they are able to take Communion.

Of course, I'd wonder why Rudy Giuliani (on with Hannity last night) would take Communion . . .
but it ain't really my call.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

I found this very interesting. In his first speech he did not ask the people for their blessing, he asked them to pray to God and ask that God would bless him. The laity have no power to bless the Holy Father, but they do have the power to pray that God will bless him. It's a small detail but something I liked :)

[James Madison]

No, God through Christ helps us to become righteous (infused righteousness).

The fallen species **** sapiens right here, right now can never become righteous. We have rejected God and, therefore, cannot understand what it means to follow Christ and to live a life that is pleasing to God. This is the doctrine of Total Depravity. If righteous is infused, as you state, then man is capable of doing good. But since even the holiest of men will ultimately succumb to sin, how can infused righteousness allow this? If God, who is perfect, infuses His righteousness unto the believers, what happens when they sin? Did God just sin? How is this possible?

It's not. Man is never capable of following God. Ever. And since man cannot understand the True Righteousness of a Perfect God, any good he seeks to do will be short-sighted, poorly implemented, and ultimately flawed in theory, practice, and execution. Even acts of 'absolute selflessness' will always have an underlying selfish motive: obtain Salvation. Here the problems of Romanism rear their head: the selfishness of man leads him on a journey to obtain salvation for himself.

Jesus seems to agree with me...


No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
From John 6


Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
From John 8

So does Paul...


None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit
From Romans 3, adapted from Psalm 36


For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. From Romans 8

The solution to this is imputed righteousness. God, in an infinite act of mercy, imputes the Righteousness of Christ upon all He has predestined to receive it.


It doesn't sound like you read it. Read it again:
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to this brother -- provided that it is not a deadly sin. There is sin that leads to death and I am not saying you must pray about that.
Every kind of wickedness is sin, but not all sin leads to death.

In this passage, the Bible explicitly draws the distinction between venial and mortal (deadly) sin. John couldn't be any clearer about it. NOT all sin is deadly in the sense the Church as the Bible speak of it.

Not all sin is deadly because of Christ's imputed Righteousness. So-called 'venial' sins are the sins of those predestined to be saved; the mortal sins of those who will perish on Judgement Day.

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

This is our Pope:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/544275_10151552595765948_1008693597_n.jpg

A man who even as Archbishop humbled himself enough to wash and kiss the feet of 12 people suffering from AIDS.

[TheTexan]

Is the pope still kind of a big deal, or no not really

[TokenLibertarianGuy]

Is the pope still kind of a big deal, or no not really

He is the spiritual leader to over 1 billion people, so I'd say yes.

[anaconda]

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio from Argentina. Said he is one of the older Cardinals- 76 years old (Cardinals in the enclave can't be over 80). Now called Pope Francis.

Believe this is him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Card._Jorge_Bergoglio_SJ%2C_2008.jpg/220px-Card._Jorge_Bergoglio_SJ%2C_2008.jpg

Why is he Francis if he's Jorge?

[anaconda]

Jesuit.

Can't wait to hear the conspiracy theories... I know Petar is going nuts right now. :D

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/blackpope.htm

[heavenlyboy34]

The fallen species **** sapiens right here, right now can never become righteous. We have rejected God and, therefore, cannot understand what it means to follow Christ and to live a life that is pleasing to God. This is the doctrine of Total Depravity. If righteous is infused, as you state, then man is capable of doing good. But since even the holiest of men will ultimately succumb to sin, how can infused righteousness allow this? If God, who is perfect, infuses His righteousness unto the believers, what happens when they sin? Did God just sin? How is this possible?
Can I ask what you mean? Augustine used this term differently. To him, to "be righteous" is to "be just" (righteousness=justice). So, it all kind of depends on the language you're starting from, proper interpretation, etc. It gets pretty complicated. :eek:

[gwax23]

I like this guy, I think they made the right choice. Everything ive read about him so far indicates he is a righteous man.

[Darguth]

I found this very interesting. In his first speech he did not ask the people for their blessing, he asked them to pray to God and ask that God would bless him. The laity have no power to bless the Holy Father, but they do have the power to pray that God will bless him. It's a small detail but something I liked :)

Actually this is not completely accurate, as I comprehend the liturgical understanding of what a blessing is. When a lay person invokes a blessing on another person it is inherently an address to God imploring him to aid the recipient. So praying to God to bless the Pope *is* a blessing unto itself, as I understand it.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/WHATBLES.HTM

"Priests are the ordinary ministers of blessings, asking God's help for those people being blessed or dedicating something to a sacred service; the priest's blessing is imparted with the weight of the Church and therefore has great value in the eyes of God. The blessing of a layperson upon another, such as a parent blessing a child, is an act of good will whereby the person implores God's aid for the person; the value of this blessing in the eyes of God depends upon the person's individual sincerity and sanctity."

Emphasis mine.

[Mini-Me]

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/blackpope.htm

This is probably the subject for another thread, but most of the discussion has died down, so I'm curious: Are you posting this because you believe it, or just for kicks?

I'm a former Catholic myself, but I do mistrust the Catholic Church and the high-level Jesuits, primarily because the Church has such an authoritarian and hierarchical structure and considers itself an indispensible buffer between people and God. It stands to reason that there would be a grain of truth in what Eric Jon Phelps says: Naturally, the Church would like to regain its former dictatorial powers over people's religious beliefs or even reestablish their international theocracy. The true extents to which they have gone to achieve this are unknown to me, but I highly doubt they'd turn the offer down if it were handed to them on a silver platter...and this is inherently at odds with freedom of religion and individual liberty in general. Furthermore, it's true that the Jesuits in particular have a telling history of being kicked out of countries over and over and over, and there's probably a reason.

At the same time, Eric Jon Phelps seems to be extremely heavy on captivating, intricately detailed narrative and guilt by association and extremely light on, well...proof. It seems like his intent is to dazzle his readers with such an overwhelming amount of exposition that it would take a gargantuan scholarly effort to actually distinguish fact from fiction. (His manner of writing ensures that merely pointing out a few falsehoods wouldn't be enough, because he could obfuscate like, "Okay, so I was wrong there, but there's just so MUCH of this stuff that I can't be wrong about all of it! Just try to disprove every single claim!" ;))

Without getting into explicit fact-checking and debunking, there are several things that jump out at me immediately as problematic:
First, a quick search indicates Phelps may be pretty shady himself (alleged to be a white nationalist with shady Israeli diamond trade connections, a seemingly incoherent ideology, etc.). He doesn't hesitate to label Alex Jones (who I also mistrust) a Jesuit Temporal Coadjutor, which essentially guarantees that at least one of the two is lying or otherwise full of crap. Which one is it...Jones, Phelps, or both? It may seem like an ad hominem attack, but it's the completeness and accuracy of their facts that I'm immediately questioning, rather than their logic.

Second, the precise mechanism by which the Jesuits alone could exert such pervasive unilateral control over so many extremely powerful underlings appears unexplained. Phelps claims they control the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Bronfmans, CIA, FBI, Mossad, CFR, most heads of state and powerful government officials, etc. The list goes on and on, yet many or most of these "underlings" have more direct access to private and government resources, powerful and influential people, etc. Unless Phelps is saying they are all Jesuits, body, mind, and soul, it stands to reason that many of these groups have their own goals in mind. Overt hierarchical structures work because everyone knows who is "supposed" to be in charge...but covert hierarchical structures are different: Since so few people would actually answer to the Jesuits directly and "know" that the Jesuits are "supposed" to be in charge, it would be all too easy for such a simplistic pyramidal topology to be destabilized by a coup. Instead, it stands to reason that the most powerful puppet-masters in the world would likely have more complex connections and alliances between each other, like a bunch of mafia dons who squabble amongst themselves but unite whenever an outsider threatens their whole game. (I suppose the unmarried Jesuits could exert control over everyone else through threats to people's families which can't be reciprocated, but still...)

Going further, Eric Jon Phelps also tries to implicate Ron Paul as working for the Jesuits as well, which is extremely unlikely given Paul's life history, the libertarian ideology he has spread, and the apparent hopelessness (at the time he began) of ever making it this far (and he owes no thanks to many politically or institutionally connected muckety mucks for that either). Believing Phelps to be credible would essentially necessitate greater mistrust in Ron Paul than Phelps, which makes no sense: On one hand, Phelps is entirely immersed in the murky treacherous waters of conspiracy theory, where it's virtually impossible to tell friend from foe and your head from your ass. On the other hand, Ron Paul's agenda is far more transparent and grounded in a mixture of self-evident political reality, libertarian ethics, and Constitutionalism, and it's far easier to weigh the message of liberty on its own merits using logic and reason alone than it is to evaluate the details of any particular conspiracy theory.

Deeply intertwined conspiracy theories are always fascinating though...it'd be interesting to get jmdrake's opinion on the extent of the claims made by Phelps as well, since I recall he deeply mistrusts the Jesuits as well.

[cheapseats]

MARCH 15, 2013

POPE FRANCIS AND THE DIRTY WAR

BY JON LEE ANDERSON


The new Pope, Francis the Humble, as he perhaps would like to be known, is an Argentine with a cloudy past. This in itself is not an offense but, rather, is in keeping with a religious institution that has long been marked by secrecy. From the smoke signals with which the papal conclave makes the fact, if not the process, of its decision known to the world to the wide-ranging coverups of sexual abuse involving priests and bishops, the Catholic Church is too often associated in the popular imagination with the darkest kind of institutional opacity.

Some of the cloudiness in Francis’s past has to do with his relative obscurity during the years when he was still known as Jorge Mario Bergoglio, and with the way that the Church operates in even the calmest times. But much of it also has to do with questions about his real role during the country’s anti-Communist terror three decades ago. Officially called the Process of National Reorganization by the military junta that ruled Argentina from 1976 to 1983, the Dirty War, as it is more commonly known, was a comprehensive campaign aimed at the elimination of Communists and others seen as “subversives.” The purge claimed the lives of at least nine thousand people and as many as thirty thousand people, many of them killed in the most gruesome circumstances imaginable. Pregnant women were often held until they gave birth, whereupon they were secretly killed, their babies handed over to childless military families and others close to the regime for adoption. Hundreds of “children of the disappeared” are living today, young people in their early thirties, some of them still unaware that their parents are, in effect, their biological parents’ killers. (Francisco Goldman has written about these children for The New Yorker.)

Many of the victims were held for months in official institutions, where they were repeatedly tortured before being killed, their bodies “disappeared.” Justifying the purge, which was spoken about euphemistically but carried out in secrecy, the Argentine military espoused a brand of anti-Communist ferocity that echoed Franco’s Fascist witch hunt, which had previously devastated Republican Spain—a brand of ferocity that also shared his deeply entrenched ultra-Catholic and anti-Semitic views.

As in Spain during its Civil War, when the Catholic Church openly sided with Franco’s inquisition, and in Rome during the Second World War, when the silence of Pope Pius XII was understood as a tacit admission of Vatican acquiescence with the policies of the Axis, the role of the Argentine Catholic Church in the junta’s anti-Communist campaign was queasily intimate. In official discourses, one of Bergoglio’s predecessors, Archbishop Juan Carlos Aramburu, openly sided with the military’s stated need for a purge, in which freethinking priests and nuns were also killed. For the most part, the Church remained mute in public about what was going on. But some priests were actually directly involved in the repression, by all accounts, with military chaplains going so far as to bless the drugged bodies of suspected guerrillas marked for execution as they were loaded onto military planes, from which they were then hurled to their deaths, unconscious, over the Rio de la Plata.

There have been past accusations, including testimony from a handful of priests and bishops, that the man who is now Pope Francis was complicit, too, if in a more subtle way. He was, in the early years of the Dirty War, the provincial, or superior, of the Society of Jesus in Argentina, at a time when the Jesuits produced some of the more freethinking and socially liberal clerics in Latin America—a number of whom were targeted by military leaders during the era’s repression—and later led a seminary. The key allegation against him is that he pointed out left-leaning priests to the military as dissidents, leaving them exposed, and that he did not defend two kidnapped clerics or ask for their release. He has denied this, and says instead that he protected priests and others—just quietly, in secret.

”Beyond the details, the main thing is that it’s clear that he was not—by a long shot—at the level needed in the dramatic circumstances,” Gabriel Pasquini, an Argentine writer and editor of the online current-affairs magazine El Puercoespín, told me. There were other clergymen—“Catholic and from other religions”—who “did whatever they could to save lives,” Pasquini added. “For someone who aspires to be a bastion of moral values, it doesn’t seem like a great precedent. Never, in the years he headed the Catholic Church in Argentina, did he acknowledge its complicity in the dictatorship, much less ask for forgiveness. Will he do so now, from the Vatican?”

Whatever the truth, Francis the Humble, it would seem, has much to clear up about what he thought, how he behaved, and what he did during his country’s Dirty War. As with the role of the Church he has long served, it remains a mystery.


http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/03/pope-francis-jorge-bergoglio-argentina-dirty-war.html

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Was new pope complicit in Argentina's "dirty war?":
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57574535/was-new-pope-complicit-in-argentinas-dirty-war/

Just How Clean Were Pope Francis' Hands During Argentina's "Dirty War"?:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/03/15/pope_francis_did_bergoglio_collaborate_with_the_ar gentinian_junta_in_the.html

Will 'Dirty War' skeletons haunt Pope Francis?:
http://www.france24.com/en/20130315-bergoglio-skeletons-haunt-francis-argentina-dictatorship

Dirty Wars: Pope Francis' Ties to Argentina's Rightwing Junta:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/03/14-1