What do you think of the Freedom Scale?

[Bastiat's The Law]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_d-6z9Qju0

Accurate?

[Christian Liberty]

Is there any link to the rest of the video? It seemed like he wasn't done.

I thought he was interesting but not necessarily correct. I don't really think that the "Big government" Republicans are really much better, if at all, than the bigg government democrats. Glenn seems to think that the Republicans, while not generally very good, are clearly better than the Democrats. I don't think that's true. Foreign policy is VERY important and the Democrats are at least a little bit better there. In my opinion by about as much as the average Republican is better on economics.

I will grant you, the GOP is generally a bit smaller government on the issues that a lot of people care about, but overall I really don't think that, say, Mccain, is really all that much less pro-government than Obama. If Obama had actually followed his promises on Iraq and Afghanistan I think he would have been tolerable. Not good, but tolerable. I would have found an Obama who did keep those promises preferable to a Mccain who wanted to fight the entire Middle East but was maybe a little better on fiscal issues.

I'm curious to see the rest of it... but so far I'd say Glenn doesn't quite get it yet.

As for Bloomberg and Obama, they're both tyrannical but in different ways. Bloomberg wants to regulate your entire daily life. Obama wants more of a macro-type control, if you know what I'm saying... I'm not really sure how to put it but while I think they're both tyrants I wouldn't say they're exactly the same.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

It's a good idea, but I don't trust Glenn Beck to lead this project.

[Christian Liberty]

I listened to Beck's recent (I'm not sure how recent it was but I remember finding it here) with Judge Napolitano, and I thought he was completely wrong on Afghanistan but relatively good at everything else (I'm also guessing he knows even less about anarcho-capitalism than I do, because even though I don't agree with it I know that the word "Dangerous" is insufficient to argue against it). Although its certainly possible that he's doing that just so he can reel libertarians in and then in four years say "OK, I know you guys are libertarian but we've got to stop (Insert democrat here" so you really need to vote for (Insert fail Republican here.) I'm not really sure about Beck because I don't know much about him, but he seems more "Anti-establishment" than the other talk show hosts.

[Bastiat's The Law]

He never said big government republicans were better, wherever you pulled that from.

[Keith and stuff]

It looks like I saw a couple talk show hosts in way wrong positions. I have no idea what the good doctor stands for but he is likely a statist.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. As long as we are talking about Glenn Beck, isn't that all that matter? He's so dreamy!

[Bastiat's The Law]

It's a good idea, but I don't trust Glenn Beck to lead this project.
Spare me, I've heard it a million times. Focus on the content of the video and the scale not Beck's personality.

[PatriotOne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_d-6z9Qju0

Accurate?

It might not be obvious to most yet but I think McConnell could be moved a bit further to the right on the board. I would of put Ron a bit left on the board.

Interesting exercise.

[TaftFan]

It's all good conversation. Paradigms have to be discussed.

[Bastiat's The Law]

It looks like I saw a couple talk show hosts in way wrong positions. I have no idea what the good doctor stands for but he is likely a statist.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. As long as we are talking about Glenn Beck, isn't that all that matter? He's so dreamy!
I don't care about that. If Howard Stern broke down something close to the real political paradigm I would've posted that.

[Bastiat's The Law]

It might not be obvious to most yet but I think McConnell could be moved a bit further to the right on the board. I would of put Ron a bit left on the board.

Interesting exercise.
Yeah I haven't found the full video of this. Would like to see them go over the libertarian/freedom side more.

[Christian Liberty]

He never said big government republicans were better, wherever you pulled that from.

Well, he thinks that Obama belongs on the far left end, almost all the way to extreme tyranny. Which he does. But then they put guys like Mccain and Graham near the middle, whereas they're really just as statist as Obama,.


Yeah I haven't found the full video of this. Would like to see them go over the libertarian/freedom side more.

Yes, me too.

I saw Murray on there, I'm curious what Beck's comments will be. Although of much more practical importance are his comments on Ron Paul.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Well, he thinks that Obama belongs on the far left end, almost all the way to extreme tyranny. Which he does. But then they put guys like Mccain and Graham near the middle, whereas they're really just as statist as Obama,.
The board is obviously a work in progress. He had McCain, Graham, Boehnor, and McConnell all grouped together at first and then Matt Kibbe had him move them to totalitarian side under the neocon moniker. As long as he's on the correct side of the paradigm that's all that matters.

[Christian Liberty]

If he says "These big government Republicans are a little better than the big government democrats, but they're all bad and you shouldn't vote for any of them" than I'd agree that it really doesn't matter. But if he then tells people to vote for the big government Republicans as a necessary evil, than it is a problem.

[ShaneEnochs]

If he says "These big government Republicans are a little better than the big government democrats, but they're all bad and you shouldn't vote for any of them" than I'd agree that it really doesn't matter. But if he then tells people to vote for the big government Republicans as a necessary evil, than it is a problem.

I would argue that big government democrats are slightly better than big government republicans, since the only facet that republicans hold on to is that they're "small government". When they're big government, they're fascists. At least democrats are (usually) good with civil liberties.

[Christian Liberty]

The Democrats mostly lost their anti-war, pro-civil liberties stance under Obama. There are a few exceptions, but not too many. I mean, most of them voted for the 2012 NDAA.


Even still, they never claimed to be small government so I'd probably agree with the distinction that you'd make. Although it would have to depend on the two candidates in question. I wouldn't vote for a big government anything though. I'd much rather "Waste" my vote on at least a quasi-libertarian even if there aren't any real ones available.

[Bastiat's The Law]

If he says "These big government Republicans are a little better than the big government democrats, but they're all bad and you shouldn't vote for any of them" than I'd agree that it really doesn't matter. But if he then tells people to vote for the big government Republicans as a necessary evil, than it is a problem.
They didn't say vote for the big government republicans. Kibbe said they were all really bad.

[Christian Liberty]

They didn't, I'm more wondering whether Glenn will use something like this to tell people they should vote for big gov. Republicans when 2014 or whatever rolls around.

Anyone have the rest of this video? I am interested.

[presence]

I think the project would make a sweet online wiki using a rep/karma system to move people up/down left/right. Something that kept track of total votes and allowed users to add politicians.

[sailingaway]

I would never, ever buy into a 'scale' that was Beck's to manipulate.

[Article V]

I would never, ever buy into a 'scale' that was Beck's to manipulate.It's not really Beck's to manipulate. The scale is a simple variant of the Nolan chart and/or the Political Compass; perhaps, it's closest to the Pournelle chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart).

Beck may place his political personality magnets in the wrong places from time to time, but he regularly says he's wrong or unsure about his placements. Beck's main point is more about understanding the political spectrum not in traditional terms of conservative vs liberal but more in turns of libertarianism vs authoritarianism. Beck seems to think anarcho-capitalism is too far toward total anarchy to be feasibly safe; but this is basically because Beck doesn't yet fully understand anarcho-capitalism (or, for that matter, understand the actual philosophy of anarchism, which Beck regularly confuses with chaos). Beck's "Freedom Scale" is still useful because it gets people thinking in terms closer to coercion vs voluntarism than the ambiguous "left vs right" nonsense; given enough time and enough exposure to people like Penn Jillette, Beck may one day himself become anarcho-capitalist--but that day is decades into the future.

[Bastiat's The Law]

It's not really Beck's to manipulate. The scale is a simple variant of the Nolan chart and/or the Political Compass; perhaps, it's closest to the Pournelle chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart).

Beck may place his political personality magnets in the wrong places from time to time, but he regularly says he's wrong or unsure about his placements. Beck's main point is more about understanding the political spectrum not in traditional terms of conservative vs liberal but more in turns of libertarianism vs authoritarianism. Beck seems to think anarcho-capitalism is too far toward total anarchy to be feasibly safe; but this is basically because Beck doesn't yet fully understand anarcho-capitalism (or, for that matter, understand the actual philosophy of anarchism, which Beck regularly confuses with chaos). Beck's "Freedom Scale" is still useful because it gets people thinking in terms closer to coercion vs voluntarism than the ambiguous "left vs right" nonsense; given enough time and enough exposure to people like Penn Jillette, Beck may one day himself become anarcho-capitalist--but that day is decades into the future.
Anarchist were generally hardcore marxists and carried out assassinations. Anything with the base word "anarchy" in it is going to be a tough sell.

[sailingaway]

It's not really Beck's to manipulate. The scale is a simple variant of the Nolan chart and/or the Political Compass; perhaps, it's closest to the Pournelle chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart)).



both of those are easy to manipulate as well.

[Article V]

both of those are easy to manipulate as well.I think we may be talking past one another. It's not possible to manipulate the scales because the scales are what they are. It is possible to manipulate the placement of individuals on the scales, but that has very little to do with the scales themselves and much more to do with marketing of an individual. Marketing of an individual to manipulate the public happens with or without the scales, which is why this thread isn't about that (or at least I don't think it's about that).

It feels like if this thread were "What do you think about the Telephone?," you'd be saying, "I would never, ever buy into a 'phone' that is Alexander Graham Bell's to manipulate."

[sailingaway]

I think we may be talking past one another. It's not possible to manipulate the scales because the scales are what they are. It is possible to manipulate the placement of individuals on the scales, but that has very little to do with the scales themselves and much more to do with marketing of an individual. Marketing of an individual to manipulate the public happens with or without the scales, which is why this thread isn't about that.

It has to do with who controls the placement and the questions asked to 'create' placement.

[Article V]

It has to do with who controls the placement and the questions asked to 'create' placement.So basically you are warping the discussion of the Freedom Scale and its accuracy into a discussion about the evil of Glenn Beck. Typical.

PS. The question asked to create placement along the length of the scale isn't controlled by Beck. It's a simple: more or less state control? Beck may choose to ignore some answers to that question if he one day wants to manipulate someone's placement, but the question is a constant, which is why the scale itself is fixed. http://www.glennbeck.com/2013/02/26/anarchy-v-totalitarian-the-new-right-left-scale/

[Article V]

Anarchist were generally hardcore marxists and carried out assassinations. Anything with the base word "anarchy" in it is going to be a tough sell.Yeah, the word anarchy has basically been perverted away from it's original philosophical context. I suppose it'll have to switch to voluntarism (which isn't exactly the same, but close enough for most anarchists).

[compromise]

I would put McConnell a little to the right of Boehner, kept Ryan where Beck originally had him, moved Toomey to the right, moved O' Reilly to the left, Rubio in between Toomey and Limbaugh, Carson to the left, Assange to around where Cruz is, moved Hayek to the right of Friedman, moved Rothbard to the furthest right part of the board, Ron a little to the left of Napolitano, Napolitano closer to Gillette, put Ron Johnson and Tim Scott near to Toomey's new position, Goldwater near Flake, Taft to the right of Rand and Pat Buchanan near DeMint.

I think it was pretty good in general though.

[compromise]

Republicans are better on foreign policy than Democrats with a Dem presidency. No Senate Dems and far more House Repubs than Dems voted against Obama's Libya intervention.

[jkr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t724bHjCa-I

[QuickZ06]

Where did Frothy fall on the list?

[Barrex]

It is really an excellent idea.

Why RonPaulForuams.com doesnt start his own? It would be really fascinating. Imagine arguments and conversations.... and bloodbath and and and..... can we have one??? PLEEEEEEEEEAASEEEEEEEEE...Pretty please...

[Bastiat's The Law]

It is really an excellent idea.

Why RonPaulForuams.com doesnt start his own? It would be really fascinating. Imagine arguments and conversations.... and bloodbath and and and..... can we have one??? PLEEEEEEEEEAASEEEEEEEEE...Pretty please...
That is a fascinating idea!

[cajuncocoa]

Where did Frothy fall on the list?I was thinking/wondering the same! I don't think it's mere oversight that he wasn't placed on the board....either Beck or the chart would instantly lose credibility!!

[Christian Liberty]

I was thinking/wondering the same! I don't think it's mere oversight that he wasn't placed on the board....either Beck or the chart would instantly lose credibility!!

Obama was on the chart. Granted, Santorum (Where exactly did the "Frothy" name come from) is worse than Obama on some issues, but he's better than Obama on the economics. If Obama can be on the chart, Santorum can probably be SOMEWHERE on the chart too.

Was anyone able to find the rest of the video? Only the 1st 4 minutes were shown last time I checked.

[Christian Liberty]

It is really an excellent idea.

Why RonPaulForuams.com doesnt start his own? It would be really fascinating. Imagine arguments and conversations.... and bloodbath and and and..... can we have one??? PLEEEEEEEEEAASEEEEEEEEE...Pretty please...

That would be fun, although likely controversial.

I'd argue that Ron Paul was more libertarian than Murray Rothbard. Now THAT woudl be a fun debate...

[cajuncocoa]

Obama was on the chart. Granted, Santorum (Where exactly did the "Frothy" name come from) is worse than Obama on some issues, but he's better than Obama on the economics. If Obama can be on the chart, Santorum can probably be SOMEWHERE on the chart too.

Was anyone able to find the rest of the video? Only the 1st 4 minutes were shown last time I checked.Yes, of course Santorum definitely has a place on the chart. The problem for Glenn Beck is that, if he places Santorum where he really should be, Ricky would be positioned right next to George Soros and Al Gore on the chart. We're talking about a man who actually said


One of the criticisms I make is to what I refer to as more of a Libertarianish right. They have this idea that people should be left alone, be able to do whatever they want to do, government should keep our taxes down and keep our regulations low, that we shouldn't get involved in the bedroom, we shouldn't get involved in cultural issues.

That is not how traditional conservatives view the world. There is no such society that I’m aware of, where we’ve had radical individualism and that it succeeds as a culture.

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2012/01/19/rick-santorum-is-tired-of-you-people-wanting-the-government-to-leave-you-alone/

That sounds like a real big-government Republican to me! (Duh!) Nouveau-libertarian Beck would have some 'splainin' to do about his ardent support of Mr. Santorum last year after he made the above quote.

If he tried to put Santorum somewhere else on that chart -- closer to where Glenn puts himself (which is laughable all by itself), he would be ridiculed even more than he already is!

[The Gold Standard]

Where exactly did the "Frothy" name come from

Google Santorum, or did they fix that by now?

[The Gold Standard]

Google Santorum, or did they fix that by now?

Ok, it's half way down the page now. spreadingsantorum.com

[Christian Liberty]

Yes, of course Santorum definitely has a place on the chart. The problem for Glenn Beck is that, if he places Santorum where he really should be, Ricky would be positioned right next to George Soros and Al Gore on the chart. We're talking about a man who actually said



That sounds like a real big-government Republican to me! (Duh!) Nouveau-libertarian Beck would have some 'splainin' to do about his ardent support of Mr. Santorum last year after he made the above quote.

If he tried to put Santorum somewhere else on that chart -- closer to where Glenn puts himself (which is laughable all by itself), he would be ridiculed even more than he already is!

On the one hand, I have used this quote to try to tell people that they should stay as far away from Rick as possible. My dad supported Santorum but he's really closer to Ron Paul philosophically, even though he's more conservative than libertarian. Why anyone who remotely likes freedom, even if they like it in more of a Jim Demint type of way, would go anywhere near Rick when he made that statement is odd, to me.

On the other hand, Santorum is really just honestly stating what ninety percent of Americans believe anyway. Except for Ron Paul, and maybe Gary Johnson, every single GOP candidate in 2012 would have agreed with Rick Santorum, deep down.

I'd say Al Gore is "more libertarian" than Rick Santorum, as Rick Santorum is not only the most socially theocratic but also one of the worst warhawks...


Google Santorum, or did they fix that by now?


Ok, it's half way down the page now. spreadingsantorum.com

[Christian Liberty]

Just looked that site up, LOL...

[sailingaway]

not a chance

[Christian Liberty]

Not a chance of what?

[gwax23]

We should sierously start our own this is a cool idea and we can make it dynamic and fluctuate as time goes on.

Honestly I know theres a lot of beck haters out there but this was harmless and pretty interesting. I didnt get a clear look at the whole scale especially the freedom side but overall the scale is pretty good.

[Henry Rogue]

I've contemplated the whole Freedom scale a few times myself, so i take interest when someone else attempts it. I recall beck demonstrating a scale in the past with fascism at one side and communism at the other and republicans and democrats near the middle. So he's getting better at it. Odd note, I don't recall anyone or any group calling themselves totalitarianist. On my scale beck would be farther to the left than he put himself.

[Bastiat's The Law]

That would be fun, although likely controversial.

I'd argue that Ron Paul was more libertarian than Murray Rothbard. Now THAT woudl be a fun debate...
Depends how seriously you took the chart. If you have fun with it then it would be.

[Bastiat's The Law]

We should sierously start our own this is a cool idea and we can make it dynamic and fluctuate as time goes on.

Honestly I know theres a lot of beck haters out there but this was harmless and pretty interesting. I didnt get a clear look at the whole scale especially the freedom side but overall the scale is pretty good.
I really like the idea too. Beck had a decent start, but we could make it even better AND we would include Santorum! :D

[Bastiat's The Law]

I've contemplated the whole Freedom scale a few times myself, so i take interest when someone else attempts it. I recall beck demonstrating a scale in the past with fascism at one side and communism at the other and republicans and democrats near the middle. So he's getting better at it. Odd note, I don't recall anyone or any group calling themselves totalitarianist. On my scale beck would be farther to the left than he put himself.
I don't think he put himself on the scale did he? I didn't get a good look at the Liberty side.

[Henry Rogue]

I don't think he put himself on the scale did he? I didn't get a good look at the Liberty side.At the 1:24 mark below the capital c of classical liberal.

[Christian Liberty]

Anyone have any interest in starting this thing off?

[gwax23]

Anyone have any interest in starting this thing off?


Yes very. But how?

[Christian Liberty]

I'm not really sure. I don't exactly have much technical knowledge.

[Barrex]

In theory it is simple. You have candidates and then people put them in place (t/y/ranny-centrist-liberty). When people vote average is calculated automatically and position of the candidate moves accordingly... You can ask voters their political stance. If you do that you can also see how libertarians, republicans, dems are viewing those politicinas too. In other words: I am not doing it.:D

[ClydeCoulter]

In theory it is simple. You have candidates and then people put them in place (t/y/ranny-centrist-liberty). When people vote average is calculated automatically and position of the candidate moves accordingly... You can ask voters their political stance. If you do that you can also see how libertarians, republicans, dems are viewing those politicinas too. In other words: I am not doing it.:D

And, just why not? :)