More gun laws = fewer deaths, 50-state study says

[aGameOfThrones]

CHICAGO (AP) -- States with the most gun control laws have the fewest gun-related deaths, according to a study that suggests sheer quantity of measures might make a difference.

But the research leaves many questions unanswered and won't settle the debate over how policymakers should respond to recent high-profile acts of gun violence.

In the dozen or so states with the most gun control-related laws, far fewer people were shot to death or killed themselves with guns than in the states with the fewest laws, the study found. Overall, states with the most laws had a 42 percent lower gun death rate than states with the least number of laws.

The results are based on an analysis of 2007-2010 gun-related homicides and suicides from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The researchers also used data on gun control measures in all 50 states compiled by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a well-known gun control advocacy group. They compared states by dividing them into four equal-sized groups according to the number of gun laws.

The results were published online Wednesday in the medical journal JAMA Internal Medicine.

More than 30,000 people nationwide die from guns every year nationwide, and there's evidence that gun-related violent crime rates have increased since 2008, a journal editorial noted.

During the four-years studied, there were nearly 122,000 gun deaths, 60 percent of them suicides.

"Our motivation was really to understand what are the interventions that can be done to reduce firearm mortality," said Dr. Eric Fleegler, the study's lead author and an emergency department pediatrician and researcher at Boston Children's Hospital.

He said his study suggests but doesn't prove that gun laws — or something else — led to fewer gun deaths.


http://news.yahoo.com/more-gun-laws-fewer-deaths-134804944.html

[TonySutton]

But did they have a lower death rate?

[Keith and stuff]

I reject any study that includes people that shot themselves.

[Deborah K]

I reject any study that includes people that shot themselves.

Right. Suicidal people have mental issues, that's a completely different statistic.

[Zippyjuan]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/09/guns-traffic-deaths-rates/1784595/



Death rates from guns, traffic accidents converging

WASHINGTON — Deaths from traffic accidents have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years, while firearm-related fatalities rose for decades before leveling off in the past decade, a USA TODAY analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows.

Meanwhile, the rate of firearms deaths has exceeded traffic fatalities in several states, including Arizona, Colorado, the District of Columbia, Michigan, Nevada and Oregon, records show. The rate is equal in Ohio and Pennsylvania.

In the United States in 2010, the rate of firearm deaths was 10 people per 100,000, while for traffic accidents it was 12 per 100,000. Firearm-related deaths totaled 31,672 in 2010.

[Zippyjuan]

The study in the OP also found that firearm suicides were much lower in states with tougher gun laws along wiht homicides.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/06/us/guns-laws-mortality/index.html

-- States with the most gun laws experienced a lower overall mortality rate from firearms than did states with the fewest laws, researchers in Boston reported in a study published Wednesday.

"States that have the most laws have a 42% decreased rate of firearm fatalities compared to those with the least laws," said Dr. Eric W. Fleegler, an attending physician in pediatric emergency medicine at Boston Children's Hospital and an assistant professor of pediatrics at Harvard Medical School.

Those states with the most gun laws saw a 40% reduction in firearm-related homicides and a 37% reduction in firearm-related suicides, he said in a telephone interview.


Those are pretty significant reductions. But note that those are gun related deaths. It does not show the overall suicide rate which could reflect people using what is available to them to kill themselves- they may have used something else.

[Keith and stuff]

The 3 states east of the MS River with the least restrictive firearm laws (NH/VT/ME) also have the lowest crime rates. Shock, shock and shock :)

[AFPVet]

This study did not take into account the types of firearm related deaths. If victims are unable to defend themselves against rapists, that may result in a lower number of deaths; however, the number of violent crimes would defeat this particular study. Even justifiable homicide is still a homicide.

It's not about firearm related incidents—but crime in general.

[Anti Federalist]

The anti smoking crowd knows what works.

BOHICA.

[aGameOfThrones]

Did more laws on guns prevent the person from suicide? Or did it just eliminate a tool?

[Zippyjuan]

The 3 states east of the MS River with the least restrictive firearm laws (NH/VT/ME) also have the lowest crime rates. Shock, shock and shock :)

And some of the lowest population densities.

[bunklocoempire]

OT

Be afraid of "death" so we can help you "live". :rolleyes:

Freedom of religion:

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Or as Jeff Tweedy put it:

You have to learn how to die if you want to want to be alive.

My natural/God given rights and life don't come from a 50 state survey.

I've died already keep yer stinkin' Habitrail. lol :D NEXT!

[Expatriate]

Take a look at the comments section, it cuts right through this Brady Center BS.

[Brian4Liberty]

I reject any study that includes people that shot themselves.

Most of the studies (and propaganda) do include them though.

[Anti Federalist]

And some of the lowest population densities.

He said rate, not raw numbers.

[Zippyjuan]

Yes- he did- which is why I said "population densities" not "populations". Lower density is usually associated with lower crime rates.

[erowe1]

I reject any study that includes people that shot themselves.

+1

The whole reason for including that is to make the point the headline is claiming.

[Zippyjuan]

Gun suicides were also 40% lower.

[RonPaulMall]

The 3 states east of the MS River with the least restrictive firearm laws (NH/VT/ME) also have the lowest crime rates. Shock, shock and shock :)

Yeah, this fact right here is all you need to point out to shut up anybody who wants to cite this study as some kind of justification for gun control.

[erowe1]

Gun suicides were also 40% lower.

Of course. That's why they counted them.

But what about total suicides? If the main selling point for gun laws is that they make someone kill themselves with drugs instead of guns, that's not worth much. So instead they talk about "gun related deaths" and suicides in it.

[Zippyjuan]

Toss out the suicides then. Gun homicides alone were down 40% as well. Guns account for 65% of all homicides according to the US Census data. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf

[Xhin]

This study is stupid. Of course a decrease in the availability of guns is going to make the usage of them go down. That's Economics 101.

What we actually need studies to address:

* How crime rates change in relation to gun laws.
* How violent crime in general changes as gun laws change.
* What percentage of violence in general is justifiable for different gun control amounts. This will give you an idea of how much crime is *prevented*.

[Keith and stuff]

Toss out the suicides then. Gun homicides alone were down 40% as well.

Gun homicides isn't at issue, either. Many homicides are justifiable homicides. If the study only looked at gun murders it might be reasonable. The study is a complete joke.

[jmdrake]

I reject any study that includes people that shot themselves.

Yep. It's not like someone with suicidal tendencies couldn't choose a different method. (Sleeping pills and whiskey?)

[Zippyjuan]

Gun homicides isn't at issue, either. Many homicides are justifiable homicides. If the study only looked at gun murders it might be reasonable. The study is a complete joke.

To the killer, probably most homicides are justified. "He looked at my sister wrong!" "He stole my car!" "He is ugly". "He got in my way". Got any percentages?

[Acala]

"MORE" gun laws is a spurious measure. The number of gun laws is not related to the level of restriction on ownership. I have not seen the actual study in this case but saw a similar study out of the UK that used such a twisted criteria for gun laws that it listed New Hampshire and Nevada as states with restrictive gun laws. I will bet anyone $50 that the criteria used in this study for "most' gun laws does not correlate with most restrictive gun laws. In other words, it is a big fat lie tailor-made for propaganda purposes.

[Zippyjuan]

Actual statistics on guns and crime are mixed. Examples can be found where tighter gun laws led to lower crime. And they can also be found where looser gun laws also led to less crime. This is true for higher crime rates and tighter or looser gun laws.

[Dr.3D]

I'll be they included in the count, people who died from someone shooting them in self defense.

[tangent4ronpaul]

This section sums up the entire report:


The results are based on an analysis of 2007-2010 gun-related homicides and suicides from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The researchers also used data on gun control measures in all 50 states compiled by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence

These are the same folks that studied gun violence in getto's with the highest violence and claimed they represented the entire cities studied.

These are the folks that authored "Just like shooting birds in the sky" claiming that someone could weild a 40lb .50 cal rifle with significant kick just like a skeet shotgun and blow airliners out of the sky. They also implied that you could go down to your local gun store and purchase .50 cal armor piercing, incendiary, explosive ammo OTC.

:rolleyes:

-t

[Keith and stuff]

To the killer, probably most homicides are justified. "He looked at my sister wrong!" "He stole my car!" "He is ugly". "He got in my way". Got any percentages?

Huh? A justifiable homicide is when someone uses a gun in self defense to save people or things. For example, if you were a father of 4 and someone broke into your house to kill you and your children. If you used your gun to defend the 5 lives and killed the evil person, that would be a justifiable homicide. The word homicide isn't at all a bad word. Homicides are neither good nor bad by default. It depends on the type of homicide.

[Fivezeroes]

They must have completely ignored New York and Chicago, which amount for 10,000+ gun deaths a year alone.

[AFPVet]

Huh? A justifiable homicide is when someone uses a gun in self defense to save people or things. For example, if you were a father of 4 and someone broke into your house to kill you and your children. If you used your gun to defend the 5 lives and killed the evil person, that would be a justifiable homicide. The word homicide isn't at all a bad word. Homicides are neither good nor bad by default. It depends on the type of homicide.

Exactly... or say someone attempts to rape you. Even if a weapon is not used, there is a legal issue called 'disparity of force' where someone who possesses overwhelming force such as size or skill and uses those features as weapons.

Justifiable homicides are still homicides which is why these studies are not valid.

[Zippyjuan]

Huh? A justifiable homicide is when someone uses a gun in self defense to save people or things. For example, if you were a father of 4 and someone broke into your house to kill you and your children. If you used your gun to defend the 5 lives and killed the evil person, that would be a justifiable homicide. The word homicide isn't at all a bad word. Homicides are neither good nor bad by default. It depends on the type of homicide.

So what percent of "homicides" fall into that category? I don't have figures right now myself but would think that would be a very small percent.

[Zippyjuan]

They must have completely ignored New York and Chicago, which amount for 10,000+ gun deaths a year alone.

Those are cities but New York and Illinois would have been included in the 50 states they looked at and they would have counted in those state totals.

[TheTexan]

Let's outlaw 9mm ammunition, so we can cut down on "9mm gun deaths"

Good idea yes?

Or even better outlaw Glock 19's and I bet you it will be very effective in cutting down deaths caused by Glock 19's.

BTW:
Full disclosure I didn't even bother to read the dumbass "gun deaths" study

[TheTexan]

Let's outlaw sporks and cut down spork deaths, noone really needs a spork anyway

[Fivezeroes]

Those are cities but New York and Illinois would have been included in the 50 states they looked at and they would have counted in those state totals.


Yea, I realize they are cities, but, what if you're trying to make a point and smudge the numbers, wouldn't you fail to include those two cities. And don't get me started on California, I'm sure there are quite a few murders there every year and it has some of the strictest gun laws in the US, thanks to Feinstein.



Let's outlaw sporks and cut down spork deaths, noone really needs a spork anyway


Nooooo, I need my spork, my life wouldn't be complete without it.

[Zippyjuan]

List of states by homicides and gun homicides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

(Feinstein is a US senator and does not write any state legislation on gun laws or any other matters).

[Fivezeroes]

List of states by homicides and gun homicides:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

(Feinstein is a US senator and does not write any state legislation on gun laws or any other matters).


Same smell, they're all corrupt if you ask me. Once a gun grabber always a gun grabber. Anyway, that list is from 2010, didn't they just do a report that Illinois is already at its 500th gun murder, or surpassed it already?

[Zippyjuan]

Same smell, they're all corrupt if you ask me. Once a gun grabber always a gun grabber. Anyway, that list is from 2010, didn't they just do a report that Illinois is already at its 500th gun murder, or surpassed it already?

That would be for the entire year last year. There have only been two months completed this year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/06/chicagos-murder-rate-is-finally-falling-can-that-keep-up/



Chicago’s murder rate is finally falling. Can that keep up?

Posted by Dylan Matthews on March 6, 2013 at 2:53 pm

Homicide rates fall across the country for the past two decades, but in Chicago, that trend has reversed in the past year. In 2012, the city saw 506 homicides, a 16 percent increase over 2011. In January 2013, there were 43 homicides, which, if repeated every other month, would have led to 516 homicides over the course of the year—even more than 2012. But thankfully, that pace didn’t keep up. February saw a huge drop, with only 14 homicides reported, the lowest monthly total since 1957.


New York has been improving as well.
http://www.npr.org/2013/01/24/170155191/new-york-murder-rate-plummets-but-who-should-get-the-credit




New York Murder Rate Plummets, But Who Should Get The Credit?

by Joel Rose

January 24, 2013 4:20 PM
By most measures, New York City is safer than it's been in a half-century. The city recorded just 418 murders in 2012 — the lowest total since record keeping began in the early 1960s. But there's some debate about where to place the credit for that drop.

No part of New York saw a more dramatic decline in murders last year than the 61st Precinct in South Brooklyn. Two years ago, there were 14 murders in the precinct. Last year, it had only three.

'More Cops, More Safety,' Says One Resident

"I live alone here. So more cops, more safety," says Ajar Isabekova, who works behind the counter at Sultan Meat and Deli in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. When she leaves her job each night around 10 p.m., "I see on every corner police workers, and I feel safe," Isabekova says.

Citywide, New York's murder rate was down 18 percent compared with 2011 — and a remarkable 80 percent compared with the bad old days of the early 1990s. "The number of murders this year will be lower than it has been at any time since records started to be kept some 50 years ago," Mayor Michael Bloomberg noted at a graduation ceremony for New York Police Department recruits in December.

[acptulsa]

Gun homicides isn't at issue, either. Many homicides are justifiable homicides. If the study only looked at gun murders it might be reasonable. The study is a complete joke.

Like Xhin noted, the thing this tries the hardest to ignore completely is how much crime goes down overall because a few burglars and rapists die. If they're doing fewest total deaths, I suspect they've discovered that the states with the most lax gun laws also have the most retirees and the most cancer treatment centers. Lord knows they aren't above that sort of thing. And since old folks do like to follow the sun South when they retire...

[Fivezeroes]

That would be for the entire year last year. There have only been two months completed this year.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/06/chicagos-murder-rate-is-finally-falling-can-that-keep-up/



New York has been improving as well.
http://www.npr.org/2013/01/24/170155191/new-york-murder-rate-plummets-but-who-should-get-the-credit


Shows how much attention I pay to the news.