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Anti Federalist
03-04-2013, 04:06 PM
How Cops Became Soldiers: An Interview with Police Militarization Expert Radley Balko

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/police-militarization-an-interview-with-radley-balko

By Michael Arria

http://assets2.motherboard.tv/content-images/article/no-politician-wants-to-look-anti-cop-an-interview-with-radley-balko/4452e163bc2aa9f5bf60097b74286b65_vice_630x420.jpg

In 2007, journalist Radley Balko told a House subcommittee that one criminologist detected a 1,500% increase in the use of SWAT teams over the last two decades. That's reflective of a larger trend, fueled by the wars on drugs and terror, of police forces becoming heavily militarized.

Balko, an investigative reporter for the Huffington Post and author of the definitive report on paramilitary policing in the United States, has a forthcoming book on the topic, Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces. He was kind enough to answer some questions about how our police turned into soldiers as well as the challenges of large-scale reform.

Motherboard: When did the shift towards militarized police forces begin in America? Is it as simple as saying it began with the War on Drugs or can we detect gradual signs of change when we look back at previous policies?

There's certainly a lot of overlap between the war on drugs and police militarization. But if we go back to the late 1960s and early 1970s, there were two trends developing simultaneously. The first was the development and spread of SWAT teams. Darryl Gates started the first SWAT team in L.A. in 1969. By 1975, there were 500 of them across the country. They were largely a reaction to riots, violent protest groups like the Black Panthers and Symbionese Liberation Army, and a couple mass shooting incidents, like the Texas clock tower massacre in 1966.

At the same time, Nixon was declaring an "all-out war on drugs." He was pushing policies like the no-knock raid, dehumanizing drug users and dealers, and sending federal agents to storm private homes on raids that were really more about headlines and photo-ops than diminishing the supply of illicit drugs.

But for the first decade or so after Gates invented them, SWAT teams were largely only used in emergency situations. There usually needed to be an immediate, deadly threat to send the SWAT guys. It wasn't until the early 1980s under Reagan that the two trends converged, and we started to see SWAT teams used on an almost daily basis -- mostly to serve drug warrants.

During the police clashes with Occupy protestors, there seemed to be a focus on isolated incidents of violence, as opposed to an overall examination of how this kind of policing exacerbates situations. What conclusions did your research lead you to on this topic?

I actually think that the Occupy protests gave the broader militarization issue more attention than it's had in a very long time. For 25 years, the primary "beneficiaries" of police militarization have been poor people in high-crime areas -- people who generally haven't had the power or platform to speak up. The Occupy protesters were largely affluent, white, and deft at using cell phones and social media to document and publicize incidents of excessive force.

We're also seeing interest in this issue from new quarters as SWAT teams have fallen victim to mission creep in recent years and begun raiding poker games, bars, and even people suspected of white collar crimes. So far, the only state that has passed any meaningful reform legislation in reaction to a SWAT raid gone wrong is Maryland, which passed a transparency bill after the mistaken raid on Berwyn Heights Mayor Cheye Calvo.

I suppose that may be the "it needs to get worse before it will get better" good news, here. As governments at all levels continue to expand the list of crimes for which they're willing to send the SWAT team, we'll inevitably see these tactics used against more people with more clout and stature to push for reform. It's an unfortunate bit of realpolitik, but it's undoubtedly true.

Deborah Blum has written that we refer to oleoresin capsicum as "pepper spray" because "that makes it sound so much more benign than it really is, like something just a grade or so above what we might mix up in a home kitchen." How did the use of these kinds of weapons become so commonplace?

I think part of the reason is that it has happened gradually. We got here by way of a number of political decisions and policies passed over 40 years. There was never a single law or policy that militarized our police departments -- so there was never really a public debate over whether this was a good or bad thing.

But there were other contributors. For about a generation, politicians from both parties were tripping over themselves to see who could come up with the tougher anti-crime policies. We're finally seeing some push-back on issues like incarceration, the drug war, and over-criminalization. But not on police. No politician wants to look anti-cop. Conservatives want to look tough on crime. Liberals love to throw money at police departments. So for now, rolling back police militarization is still a non-starter in Congress and state legislatures.

It won't be long before we see pro-militarization lobbying and pressure groups.

Say hello to the police-industrial complex.

The other problem is that political factions decry police militarization when it's used against them, but tend to fall somewhere between indifferent and gleeful when it's used against people they don't like. Conservatives, remember, were furious over Waco, Ruby Ridge, and a host of BATF abuses against gun owners in the 1990s -- and rightly so. Liberals mocked them for it.

Liberals were furious at the aggressive response to the occupy protests -- and rightly so. And conservatives mocked them. Liberals are rightly angry about militarized immigration raids -- conservatives don't much care. Conservatives were mad about the heavy-handed raid on the Gibson Guitar factory. Liberals blew it off. Just a few weeks ago, Rachel Maddow resurrected the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents in a segment about gun control -- and was dismissive of people who thought the government's actions were excessive. Of course, Maddow was also fuming about the treatment of Occupy protesters.

Until partisans are willing to denounce excessive force when it's used against people whose politics offend them -- or at least refrain from endorsing it -- it's hard to see how there will ever be a consensus for reform.

How did 9/11 alter the domestic relationship between the military and police?

It really just accelerated a process that had already been in motion for 20 years. The main effect of 9/11 on domestic policing is the DHS grant program, which writes huge checks to local police departments across the country to purchase machine guns, helicopters, tanks, and armored personnel carriers. The Pentagon had already been giving away the same weapons and equipment for about a decade, but the DHS grants make that program look tiny.

But probably of more concern is the ancillary effect of those grants. DHS grants are lucrative enough that many defense contractors are now turning their attention to police agencies -- and some companies have sprung up solely to sell military-grade weaponry to police agencies who get those grants. That means we're now building a new industry whose sole function is to militarize domestic police departments. Which means it won't be long before we see pro-militarization lobbying and pressure groups with lots of (taxpayer) money to spend to fight reform. That's a corner it will be difficult to un-turn. We're probably there already. Say hello to the police-industrial complex.

Is police reform a battle that will have to be won legally? From the outside looking in, much of this seems to violate The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. Are there other ways to change these policies? Can you envision a blueprint?

It won't be won legally.

The Supreme Court has been gutting the Fourth Amendment in the name of the drug war since the early 1980s, and I don't think there's any reason to think the current Court will change any of that. The Posse Comitatus Act is often misunderstood. Technically, it only prohibits federal marshals (and, arguably, local sheriffs and police chiefs) from enlisting active-duty soldiers for domestic law enforcement. The president or Congress could still pass a law or executive order tomorrow ordering U.S. troops to, say, begin enforcing the drug laws, and it wouldn't violate the Constitution or the Posse Comitatus Act. The only barrier would be selling the idea to the public.

That said, I think the current state of police militarization probably violates the spirit of the Posse Comitatus Act, and probably more pertinent, the spirit and sentiment behind the Third Amendment. (Yes -- the one no one ever talks about.) When the country was founded, there were no organized police departments, and wouldn't be for another 50 to 60 years. Public order was maintained through private means, in worst cases by calling up the militia.

The Founders were quite wary of standing armies and the threat they pose to liberty. They ultimately concluded -- reluctantly -- that the country needed an army for national defense. But they most feared the idea of troops patrolling city streets -- a fear colored by much of human history, and more immediately by the the antagonism between British troops and residents of Boston in the years leading up to the American Revolution. The Founders could never have envisioned police as they exist today. And I think it's safe to say they'd have been absolutely appalled at the idea of a team of police, dressed and armed like soldiers, breaking into private homes in the middle of the night for the purpose of preventing the use of mind-altering drugs.

As for change, the good news is that I think the public is finally waking up to this problem. Anecdotally, I've noticed more skepticism, for example, in the comment sections to stories about SWAT raids. I've also noticed more skepticism in much of the media coverage of these raids. And again, I think the fact that these tactics are now being used against people who have the means and status to speak out is drawing new attention to police militarization, and causing more people to question the wisdom of all of this. But again, there are some major political hurdles in the way of reform.

The gear and weapons and tanks are a problem. But I think a much deeper problem is the effect all of this war talk and battle rhetoric has had on policing as a profession. In much of the country today, police officers are psychologically isolated from the communities they serve. It's all about us vs. them. There are lots of reasons for that, which I describe in the book but are too involved to get into here. But it's really destructive.

I make a number of specific suggestions in the book about how to change that mindset -- most of which came from interviews with long-time cops and former police chiefs. But generally speaking, cops should be a part of the communities in which they work. They should walk beats. They should know the names of the school principals, 7-11 managers, and Boys and Girls Club and community center staffers. When your only interaction with the community is antagonistic -- responding to calls, conducting stop & frisks, questioning people -- your relationship with the community will be antagonistic. Cops are public servants. Their job is to keep the peace while protecting and observing our constitutional rights. Somewhere in the process constantly declaring war on things, we've lost sight of that.

For 30 years, politicians and public officials have been arming, training, and dressing cops as if they're fighting a war. They've been dehumanizing drug offenders and criminal suspects as the enemy. And of course they've explicitly and repeatedly told them they're fighting a war. It shouldn't be all that surprising that a lot of cops have started to believe it.

heavenlyboy34
03-04-2013, 04:39 PM
Epic. :cool: This right here is really important:

The other problem is that political factions decry police militarization when it's used against them, but tend to fall somewhere between indifferent and gleeful when it's used against people they don't like. Conservatives, remember, were furious over Waco, Ruby Ridge, and a host of BATF abuses against gun owners in the 1990s -- and rightly so. Liberals mocked them for it.

Liberals were furious at the aggressive response to the occupy protests -- and rightly so. And conservatives mocked them. Liberals are rightly angry about militarized immigration raids -- conservatives don't much care. Conservatives were mad about the heavy-handed raid on the Gibson Guitar factory. Liberals blew it off. Just a few weeks ago, Rachel Maddow resurrected the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents in a segment about gun control -- and was dismissive of people who thought the government's actions were excessive. Of course, Maddow was also fuming about the treatment of Occupy protesters.

Until partisans are willing to denounce excessive force when it's used against people whose politics offend them -- or at least refrain from endorsing it -- it's hard to see how there will ever be a consensus for reform.
The party system is never ever ever going to really "work" (in the sense that you and I use the word). It never has, and wasn't intended to.

acptulsa
03-04-2013, 05:34 PM
Epic. :cool: This right here is really important:
The party system is never ever ever going to really "work" (in the sense that you and I use the word). It never has, and wasn't intended to.

Thing is, I'm old enough to remember a time when the populace was less divided, and matters of principle like this were a lot less likely to be disregarded just because people didn't like the victims anyway. I don't know if there was more of an understanding of, 'there but for the grace of God go I', if those who took the Constitution seriously (and they were pretty common then) were stirred to act, and others said, yeah, you're right, and stood with them, or if we had simply not gotten so damned polarized as we've gotten in the Limbaugh Age.

But I think it's a combination of the above, and a little more leisure time--of which they've since robbed us.

torchbearer
03-04-2013, 05:41 PM
Thing is, I'm old enough to remember a time when the populace was less divided, and matters of principle like this were a lot less likely to be disregarded just because people didn't like the victims anyway. I don't know if there was more of an understanding of, 'there but for the grace of God go I', if those who took the Constitution seriously (and they were pretty common then) were stirred to act, and others said, yeah, you're right, and stood with them, or if we had simply not gotten so damned polarized as we've gotten in the Limbaugh Age.

But I think it's a combination of the above, and a little more leisure time--of which they've since robbed us.


I saw a doc once that showed how rove's campaign tactics(using emotional wedge issues) were attributing to the devolution of discourse.

heavenlyboy34
03-04-2013, 05:58 PM
Thing is, I'm old enough to remember a time when the populace was less divided, and matters of principle like this were a lot less likely to be disregarded just because people didn't like the victims anyway. I don't know if there was more of an understanding of, 'there but for the grace of God go I', if those who took the Constitution seriously (and they were pretty common then) were stirred to act, and others said, yeah, you're right, and stood with them, or if we had simply not gotten so damned polarized as we've gotten in the Limbaugh Age.

But I think it's a combination of the above, and a little more leisure time--of which they've since robbed us.
As I understand it from secondhand reports, more and more folks are going on disability and food stamps-which would leave them plenty of leisure time.

Anti Federalist
03-04-2013, 06:09 PM
Thing is, I'm old enough to remember a time when the populace was less divided, and matters of principle like this were a lot less likely to be disregarded just because people didn't like the victims anyway. I don't know if there was more of an understanding of, 'there but for the grace of God go I', if those who took the Constitution seriously (and they were pretty common then) were stirred to act, and others said, yeah, you're right, and stood with them, or if we had simply not gotten so damned polarized as we've gotten in the Limbaugh Age.

But I think it's a combination of the above, and a little more leisure time--of which they've since robbed us.

I disagree.

The "polarization" is not because of Limbaugh or Faux News or any of that.

Those are just pop off valves, design to allow Boobus to blow off some steam, as useless and meaningless as the Maddows and Mahers of the "left".

The polarization is coming from the fact that the ruling class has gone full retard, is going for broke, is, quite literally, running amok.

There are those who insist we all must join in.

And a sadly, shrinking minority, (that's us) that are saying "no fucking way".

There is no compromising to be had with a person that thinks the US should drop freedom bombs on any nation it feels like, whenever it feels like it, or a person who thinks they have the right to tell you, through criminal sanctions, how much water you can have in your toilet, what kind of light bulb you use or that a school should be "locked down" for safety, because a kid made a gun shape out of Pop-Tart.

You'd have better luck reasoning with and finding common ground with your cat, than with most of these assholes that are supposed to be your fellow citizens.

jmdrake
03-04-2013, 06:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etv8YEqaWgA

heavenlyboy34
03-04-2013, 06:18 PM
I disagree.

The "polarization" is not because of Limbaugh or Faux News or any of that.

Those are just pop off valves, design to allow Boobus to blow off some steam, as useless and meaningless as the Maddows and Mahers of the "left".

The polarization is coming from the fact that the ruling class has gone full retard, is going for broke, is, quite literally, running amok.

There are those who insist we all must join in.

And a sadly, shrinking minority, (that's us) that are saying "no fucking way".

There is no compromising to be had with a person that thinks the US should drop freedom bombs on any nation it feels like, whenever it feels like it, or a person who thinks they have the right to tell you, through criminal sanctions, how much water you can have in your toilet, what kind of light bulb you use or that a school should be "locked down" for safety, because a kid made a gun shape out of Pop-Tart.

You'd have better luck reasoning with and finding common ground with your cat, than with most of these assholes that are supposed to be your fellow citizens.that^^ You get most all my dang +reps, ya know.

heavenlyboy34
03-04-2013, 06:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etv8YEqaWgA
:eek: :mad:

Henry Rogue
03-04-2013, 06:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etv8YEqaWgA
They look like the LE in "THX 1138". The future is now.

jmdrake
03-04-2013, 06:47 PM
:eek: :mad:

You think that's bad?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ASXoWD0iaI

heavenlyboy34
03-04-2013, 06:59 PM
You think that's bad?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ASXoWD0iaI
I remember when that was first posted. Whatever became of that case? Did the victim and her husband win? /curious

jmdrake
03-04-2013, 07:02 PM
I remember when that was first posted. Whatever became of that case? Did the victim and her husband win? /curious

I dunno. I just saw it. Funny how we'll be hearing about Chris Donner for years to come, but the media conveniently "forgets" to talk about stuff like this.

tangent4ronpaul
03-04-2013, 07:10 PM
We're also seeing interest in this issue from new quarters as SWAT teams have fallen victim to mission creep in recent years and begun raiding poker games, bars, and even people suspected of white collar crimes. So far, the only state that has passed any meaningful reform legislation in reaction to a SWAT raid gone wrong is Maryland, which passed a transparency bill after the mistaken raid on Berwyn Heights Mayor Cheye Calvo.

http://www.theagitator.com/2009/02/06/maryland-bill-would-bring-transparency-to-use-of-swat-teams/

Maryland Bill Would Bring Transparency to Use of SWAT Teams
Friday, February 6th, 2009
Berwyn Heights, Maryland Mayor Cheye Calvo, who last summer was subjected to a particularly violent mistaken drug raid in which police shot and killed his two black labs, is helping push a new bill in the Maryland legislature that would require every SWAT team in the state to provide to the public “a monthly public report on its activities, including where and when it was deployed and whether an operation resulted in arrests, evidence seizures or injuries.”

This is a terrific first step, and the Maryland legislature needs to pass it. Part of the problem I’ve encountered reporting on this issue is that police departments tend to to be stingy with this sort of information. Even when it’s available, it’s often collected in ways that aren’t usable. Over the last few years, I’ve tried to file open records request for copies search warrants, evidence return sheets, and any other documentation of SWAT-related drug raids in several major cities. In addition to being quoted prohibitive copying and labor fees, I’ve also learned that search warrants and evidence return sheets are usually kept in separate places, making it arduous to match them up once a case has been resolved. In cases where a raid resulted in no charges, the warrants are actually often thrown out. Of course, those are the very cases we want to know about.

The bill Calvo’s pushing would begin to make data about SWAT teams available, so we can assess how often they’re used, in what situations they’re used, and, when they’re used in drug raids, how often they actually find not only illicit drugs, but the high-power weapons proponents say make these sorts of tactics necessary. In the few places this sort of analysis has been done, the results have been less than convincing.

Calvo’s bill would also show how many often Maryland’s SWAT teams hit the wrong home.

It’ll be interesting to see how the state’s police organizations react. Commenters to the Washington Post article who appear to be police officers seem to be miffed at even this small bit of transparency.

http://www.theagitator.com/2009/03/30/maryland-house-passes-swat-transparency-bill/

Maryland House Passes SWAT Transparency Bill
Monday, March 30th, 2009
This is good news.

Delegates adopted a bill, on a 126 to 9 vote, that would require law enforcement agencies to report every six months on their use of SWAT teams, including what kinds of warrants the teams serve and whether any animals are killed during raids. The bill was prompted by the case of Berwyn Heights Mayor Cheye Calvo, whose two black Labrador retrievers were shot and killed during a botched raid by a Prince George’s County Sheriff’s Office SWAT team in July.

The Maryland Senate has already passed a similar bill, and there don’t seem to be any foreseeable problems merging the two.

http://reason.com/archives/2008/12/05/death-by-swat

Death by SWAT
Collateral raid damage

In January 2007, a SWAT team in Lima, Ohio, shot and killed Tarika Wilson, a 26-year-old mother, during a drug raid at the home of her boyfriend, Anthony Terry. When the unarmed Wilson was shot, she was kneeling on the ground, complying with police orders. She was holding her 1-year-old son, Sincere, who was also shot, losing his left hand. A subsequent investigation revealed that Officer Joseph Chavalia heard another officer shooting Terry’s two dogs, mistook the noise for hostile gunfire, panicked, and fired blindly into the room where Wilson was kneeling. Chavalia was charged with involuntary manslaughter, but acquitted.

As reckless and violent as the raid was, the police did at least find a substantial supply of illegal drugs inside the house, and Anthony Terry later pleaded guilty to felony drug distribution. A subsequent investigation by the Lima News showed that despite the inherent danger and small margin for error, SWAT raids conducted by the Lima Police Department frequently turned up no drugs or weapons at all. The paper found that in one-third of the 198 raids the SWAT team conducted from 2001 to 2008, no contraband was found.

Similar reviews in other cities have produced similar results: A surprisingly high percentage of raids produce neither drugs nor weapons. And the weapons that are found tend to be small, concealable handguns, with few raids resulting in felony convictions.

A Denver Post investigation found that in 80 percent of no-knock raids conducted in Denver in 1999, police assertions that there would be weapons in the targeted home turned out to be wrong. A separate investigation by the Rocky Mountain News found that of the 146 no-knock warrants served in Denver in 1999, just 49 resulted in criminal charges, and only two resulted in prison time. Media investigations produced similar results after high-profile mistaken raids in New York City in 2003, in Atlanta in 2007, and in Orlando and Palm Beach, Florida, in 1998. When the results of the Denver investigation were revealed, former prosecutor Craig Silverman said, “When you have that violent intrusion on people’s homes with so little results, you have to ask why.”

Lima police apparently aren’t as concerned. When told of the Lima News investigation, police spokesman Kevin Martin said, “That means 68 percent of the time, we’re getting guns or drugs off the street. We’re not looking at it as a win-loss record like a football team does.”

-t

Anti Federalist
03-05-2013, 01:04 PM
////

Shredmonster
03-05-2013, 01:42 PM
I saw a doc once that showed how rove's campaign tactics(using emotional wedge issues) were attributing to the devolution of discourse.

Yeah it is all Rove's fault. Never mind the Democrats claiming the Rebublicrats want to kill grandma and starve children. Hello ? - do you pay attention to what is actually happening rather than having to read a "doc" that is obviously B.S. ?

Wolfgang Bohringer
03-05-2013, 03:52 PM
Liberals were furious at the aggressive response to the occupy protests -- and rightly so. And conservatives mocked them. Liberals are rightly angry about militarized immigration raids -- conservatives don't much care. Conservatives were mad about the heavy-handed raid on the Gibson Guitar factory. Liberals blew it off. Just a few weeks ago, Rachel Maddow resurrected the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents in a segment about gun control -- and was dismissive of people who thought the government's actions were excessive. Of course, Maddow was also fuming about the treatment of Occupy protesters.

Until partisans are willing to denounce excessive force when it's used against people whose politics offend them -- or at least refrain from endorsing it -- it's hard to see how there will ever be a consensus for reform.


"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

-- Thomas Paine

"It is certain, that all parts of Europe which are enslaved, have been enslaved by armies; and it is absolutely impossible, that any nation which keeps them amongst themselves can long preserve their liberties; nor can any nation perfectly lose their liberties who are without such guests: And yet, though all men see this, and at times confess it, yet all have joined in their turns, to bring this heavy evil upon themselves and their country."

— Cato's Letters, No. 95: Further Reasonings against Standing Armies

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
03-05-2013, 04:22 PM
Epic. :cool: This right here is really important:
The party system is never ever ever going to really "work" (in the sense that you and I use the word). It never has, and wasn't intended to.

Indeed, what you state is true because lawyers assume that they and the government they control are the great aspects about the United States. They also think the two party system was the major advancement over The U.S. Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. In actuality, the American Movement later on was the process which shined a light on our Founders, on the new order they established within The Declaration of Independence, and on the laws implemented within The U.S. Constitution to advance that new order.
This might sound like a criminal thing to say, but when talking about why these United States are great, I don't need to speak to a lawyer.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
03-05-2013, 04:34 PM
I remember when that was first posted. Whatever became of that case? Did the victim and her husband win? /curious

As men shouldn't be allowed to strip a woman, lesbians shouldn't be allowed to either. I bet it was the butch with the camera who was responsible for stripping that woman down. The men, being men, just went along with it. She probably has a copy of the film at her home where she shows it during wild lesbian parties. I can't believe I'm typing any of this.
Anyway, man they sure got that woman's cherry, didn't they?

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
03-05-2013, 04:38 PM
How Cops Became Soldiers: An Interview with Police Militarization Expert Radley Balko

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/police-militarization-an-interview-with-radley-balko

By Michael Arria

http://assets2.motherboard.tv/content-images/article/no-politician-wants-to-look-anti-cop-an-interview-with-radley-balko/4452e163bc2aa9f5bf60097b74286b65_vice_630x420.jpg

Boys who continue to play with balls and guns never grow up.

heavenlyboy34
03-05-2013, 04:43 PM
Indeed, what you state is true because lawyers assume that they and the government they control are the great aspects about the United States. They also think the two party system was the major advancement over The U.S. Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. In actuality, the American Movement later on was the process which shined a light on our Founders, on the new order they established within The Declaration of Independence, and on the laws implemented within The U.S. Constitution to advance that new order.
This might sound like a criminal thing to say, but when talking about why these United States are great, I don't need to speak to a lawyer.
Indeed. I always find it odd when people try to say that the Constitution or some other legal document is what makes America great/unique. This is some combination of animism, idolatry, and self-deprecation. Indeed, if all the laws and lawyers disappeared while we were sleeping, most everyone would wake up and go about their business as usual-much like how we treat a an intersection's broken traffic light as a 4 way stop.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
03-05-2013, 05:38 PM
Indeed. I always find it odd when people try to say that the Constitution or some other legal document is what makes America great/unique. This is some combination of animism, idolatry, and self-deprecation. Indeed, if all the laws and lawyers disappeared while we were sleeping, most everyone would wake up and go about their business as usual-much like how we treat a an intersection's broken traffic light as a 4 way stop.

We should question our lawyers and politicians pressuring them to clarify why they would think of themselves as intelligent. Most lawyers think of law in terms of empowerment. Young people desire to go to law school to be empowered to fight against the old lawyers. By the time they advance to do anything, they become old and wise lawyers themselves. In the meantime, the people suffer.

In the end, it doesn't matter how rational is the society we live just as long as the ruling process of the law itself is, by nature, irrational. Just how significant are the certifications of expertise granted when they are ultimately deemed legally official by lawyering clowns? Back when the king officially certified such expertise, his purpose was to cause a detriment towards the commoner and a benefit to himself.

seyferjm
03-05-2013, 09:31 PM
I went to Radley's breakout session at the ISFLC, very interesting but sobering to think about the mount of power the police have.

heavenlyboy34
03-05-2013, 09:47 PM
We should question our lawyers and politicians pressuring them to clarify why they would think of themselves as intelligent. Most lawyers think of law in terms of empowerment. Young people desire to go to law school to be empowered to fight against the old lawyers. By the time they advance to do anything, they become old and wise lawyers themselves. In the meantime, the people suffer.

In the end, it doesn't matter how rational is the society we live just as long as the ruling process of the law itself is, by nature, irrational. Just how significant are the certifications of expertise granted when they are ultimately deemed legally official by lawyering clowns? Back when the king officially certified such expertise, his purpose was to cause a detriment towards the commoner and a benefit to himself.
Only in relatively rare instances. It is in a king's best interests to keep commoners happy and productive, as this is how kingdoms grow and survive. Republics, on the other hand, redistribute wealth and call it "growth".

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
03-05-2013, 10:07 PM
Only in relatively rare instances. It is in a king's best interests to keep commoners happy and productive, as this is how kingdoms grow and survive. Republics, on the other hand, redistribute wealth and call it "growth".

Regarding the inclusion of "All men," the king has always managed to step in to compromise any hard fought after gain won by the commoners. He would do this by allowing just a small portion of the commoners within his Aristocracy by officially designating them titles of expertise. As in Braveheart when the king compromised the efforts of William Wallace by offering shares of property to the Scottish royalty to become part of his military nobility. In other words, the king owned all property and, as they were on his property, all things as well. If the king wanted the shares of the property back that he was sharing, he could just recall it all.

As a Christian, I look at it this way. When the ultimate tyrant Himself reduced towards the manifestation of His Will during the Last Supper, with this being the inheritance He gave to the people, He gave his body as bread to be eaten and his blood as wine to be drank. In other words, Christ commanded that we devour Him in whatever way necessary concerning our happiness. This is in direct contrast to the book of Genesis when as just part of His fullness, as the Father that is, He commanded the strong to rise up and become dominant by consuming the weak.

As a majority of people trying just to control tyranny, we have been at this forever. So, it is no small matter when the tyrant takes back that which was won by so much precious blood.

Henry Rogue
03-05-2013, 10:16 PM
Only in relatively rare instances. It is in a king's best interests to keep commoners happy and productive, as this is how kingdoms grow and survive. Republics, on the other hand, redistribute wealth and call it "growth". Are you serious Clark? Defending monarchy? Whether one is ruled by a single king or a majority of fools, it's still bad news for the individual.

heavenlyboy34
03-05-2013, 10:17 PM
Regarding the inclusion of "All men," the king has always managed to step in to compromise any hard fought after gain won by the commoners. He would do this by allowing just a small portion of the commoners within his Aristocracy by officially designating them titles of expertise. As in Braveheart when the king compromised the efforts of William Wallace by offering shares of property to the Scottish royalty to become part of his military nobility. In other words, the king owned all property and, as they were on his property, all things as well. If the king wanted the shares of the property back that he was sharing, he could just recall it all.

As a Christian, I look at it this way. When the ultimate tyrant Himself reduced towards the manifestation of His Will during the Last Supper, with this being the inheritance He gave to the people, He gave his body as bread to be eaten and his blood as wine to be drank. In other words, Christ commanded that we devour Him in whatever way necessary concerning our happiness. This is in direct contrast to the book of Genesis when as just part of His fullness, as the Father that is, He commanded the strong to rise up and become dominant by consuming the weak.

As a majority of people trying just to control tyranny, we have been at this forever. So, it is no small matter when the tyrant takes back that which was won by so much precious blood.
Indeed, but is that really tyrannical? Did you know presidents and politicians bestow various titles upon people here as well? They have benign sounding names like Congressional Medal Of Honor Recipient and so on. The "New American Paradyme" or whatever you feel like calling it isn't really "new" at all. It's just redressing of the Old World style. (except among the people in many ways. Being the productive and creative among us-however despised by the political class-many of them have managed to separate themselves from the tyranny of State mind control)

heavenlyboy34
03-05-2013, 10:20 PM
Are you serious Clark? Defending monarchy? Whether one is ruled by a single king or a majority of fools, it's still bad news for the individual.
I defend monarchy against they Tyranny Of The Majority-democracy and Republicanism. (these are avant-garde concepts established by elites to fool the masses into believing they are "free") If concerned about individual liberty, we can't really defend any well-established form of mass governance. For this, we have to look to peaceful and voluntary styles of living and co-operating.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
03-06-2013, 12:27 AM
Indeed, but is that really tyrannical? Did you know presidents and politicians bestow various titles upon people here as well? They have benign sounding names like Congressional Medal Of Honor Recipient and so on. The "New American Paradyme" or whatever you feel like calling it isn't really "new" at all. It's just redressing of the Old World style. (except among the people in many ways. Being the productive and creative among us-however despised by the political class-many of them have managed to separate themselves from the tyranny of State mind control)

As it was their plan to break with legal precedence, which as a legal method is another traditional fallacy still being utilized in our courts, our Founders turned to writing the Declaration of Independence. In order so that they would be legitimate in doing so, instead of utilizing the norm of legal precedence, they had to turn instead to another method blessed by the Church which was the scientific method of natural law. Though it doesn't say within the Declaration of Independence that our Founders declared a natural law, they clearly did so in order to break with the bounds of legal precedence.

The fact that the old Puritan order continues to threaten this new order with legal precedence isn't a fact, but a shameful situation.

Newton =

Every action has an equal or opposite reaction.

Our Founders reducing politics existentially to a natural law =

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

---------------------------
In their stunning declaration, our Founders demonstrated that they were plugged in to the Greek philosophers of Plato and Socrates by the way they formalized certain terms in the higher case. If you don't know what I'm referring to here, consider yourself a tyrant as king George didn't get it either.

rubioneocon
03-06-2013, 12:52 AM
The kind of tyranny taking place here at UC-Santa Barbara February 2010 at the start of the Karl Rove book signing tour.

We dont care about left or right we care about war we care about spending !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fE3T12G9gk

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
03-06-2013, 01:00 AM
The kind of tyranny taking place here at UC-Santa Barbara February 2010 at the start of the Karl Rove book signing tour.

We dont care about left or right we care about war we care about spending !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fE3T12G9gk

In order to save California, you may need to retreat for a long while by moving away to something other than a social communist state.

All those suited cool fellows act the way that they do because they feel with absolute certainty that they possess both the empowerment and the intelligent argument. In sobering them up, one needs to demonstrate on multiple levels how they don't possess the intelligent argument and, as a consequence, how they don't possess the empowerment either; but, that they are impostors who either need to step down or convert over to the side of the people.

rubioneocon
03-06-2013, 01:09 AM
In order to save California, you may need to retreat for a long while by moving away to something other than a social communist state.

watch the youtube please first before you think you know what you speak/write of . . .

Thanks much !

rubioneocon
03-06-2013, 01:34 AM
. . .
As a majority of people trying just to control tyranny, we have been at this forever. So, it is no small matter when the tyrant takes back that which was won by so much precious blood.

So philosophical Uncle . . .
but DO get out of your ivory tower sometimes and put those sandals/boots on the ground, please.